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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:45 pm 
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Lackey GM Pilot

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NewtypeS3 wrote:
I have to say, it's nice to see a new look at the Cosmic Era. So many years, so many arguments, it's incredibly refreshing to see a new view on the trainwreck (so to speak) that Destiny became. And, indeed, seeing you experience both Seed and Destiny through brand new eyes really made me appreciate both Seed and Destiny in a new light. For quite a while, even though the intense distaste over Destiny's ending had faded, the aftertaste remained quite strong. Enough to make me frown on Seed at the same time. But you know what? They're pretty solid works, and I'm kinda sad I didn't fully see it before.
I thank you for that fresh look, Burke.


You're quite welcome, I'm glad I could get everyone a "fresh look," so to speak, and bring up some new discussion for you all that (for the most part) didn't turn into a lot of arguing among you folks, as I feared might happen. The discussion in my "first impressions" threads has been fantastic, and I thank all of you for being here to share these new experiences with me. :)

NewtypeS3 wrote:
...although, Burke, you might wanna check out Dynasty Warriors Gundam 2...


I would if I owned a game console, but I don't. I play a couple of MMOs on my PC, but honestly, I've never been much of a console gamer at all, got too many other hobbies taking up my time (and money :P). I'm half-tempted to get an Xbox or PS3 to check out these games, but... eh, I dunno. I'll have to think about it. :)

NewtypeS3 wrote:
Hope you enjoy Astray, in spite of the flaws that it grew as plot spackle. I know I did. :D


I'm slowly working my way through it, reading 1 or 2 chapters a night before I go to bed. I'm partway through Volume 2 of Astray right now. It's a very fun and entertaining read so far, loving the tie-ins with the main SEED storyline. I also have a set of Astray R and X Astray to get through as well.

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Never read Astray R, but I was a big fan of Astray X not only because of the (admittedly indirect) tie-ins to Seed itself(and possibly one to Destiny), but also because the Hyperion is kickass, and because it makes one brief nod to ZZ in the first volume ;).
Also, I'm very much looking forward to your opinion on Canard as a protagonist.
Also, his name amuses me :D .

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Der Bigen Slicen
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NewtypeS3 wrote:
Actually, might as well ask this thought.
Am I the only one who think that Cagali and Shin might have made a good couple if things were different?


No, there are actually quite a few fanfic authors that like to pair up Shinn and Cagalli because, y'know, he hates her so much it must be because he has a crush on her. :D

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:33 pm 
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I can imagine young Shinn had a crush on the famous tomboy princess of the Athha family when ORB is still peaceful.

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:45 pm 
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Mecha Flunky

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Burke Rukes wrote:
But Athrun doesn't answer Shinn's question - partly because I think he himself doesn't really know, other than to be there for the girl he loves.


Athrun's failure to have an answer for this question, even to himself is a key thing that drives his actions in Destiny.

Burke Rukes wrote:
I get the impression that Athrun is pretty much a man without a home, even though he's at Cagalli's side.


That's a very insightful impression on your part. I think you're doing a much better job of seeing what's going on inside the various characters than the average.

Burke Rukes wrote:
I stand by my statement I made about the first 5 episodes, that this series has a different feel from SEED. Destiny is definitely a much broader, "bigger picture" type series, with more of an ensemble cast and treating us to events from many different angles, from the MS pilots to the politicians behind the scenes to the average Joe on the street.


I think that many of those dissatisfied with Destiny fail to realize this. They try to interpret the series as having a single protagonist when it doesn't.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Der Bigen Slicen
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Fiver wrote:
I think that many of those dissatisfied with Destiny fail to realize this. They try to interpret the series as having a single protagonist when it doesn't.


Quote:
Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny (機動戦士ガンダムSEED DESTINY Kidō Senshi Gandamu Shīdo Desutinī?) is an anime television series, acting as a sequel of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED by Sunrise. It retains most of the staff from Gundam SEED, including Director Mitsuo Fukuda. Set two years after the original Mobile Suit Gundam SEED, the plot follows the new character Shinn Asuka, a soldier from ZAFT


Shinn was supposed to be the main character. Period. Let's not delude ourselves here.

Also another thing I wasn't so hot on was how the focus kinda shifted away from the Naturals vs. Coordinators conflict and focused more on the SPECTRE/Logos cliche world conspiracy.

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:11 am 
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Mecha Flunky

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Burke Rukes wrote:
And Lumamaria being all jealous and obsessive with Athrun, and he reacts to her as if what he does with any other girls is any of her business...


We'll, it isn't any of Luna's business.

Burke Rukes wrote:
I want to like Heine, but I feel like he's really just a watchdog for Durandel for some mysterious purpose.


I got the same vibe about Heine, which made what happened to him very surprising.

Burke Rukes wrote:
Athrun tells him and Cagalli to go home to Orb. His last words to Cagalli, after seeing the ring he gave her on her finger: "There are certain things that I can understand, but not accept. You know what I mean." Ouch again...


Look at it from Athrun's point of view. Cagalli broke the engagement. Athrun found this out from random gossip and not from her. And now she's still wearing the ring as if nothing happened. On Cagalli's watch, Orb allied with genocidal maniacs who want to kill Athrun and exterminate his people. Kira has destroyed the Minerva's main weapon, killing several crew of the Minerva, plus indirectly gotten Heine killed. Cagalli has ignored Athrun's advice from the start of the series. Durandal and Lunamaria have both asked for advice, Meyrin has listened to it, Talia has followed it.

Durandal and even Shinn have noticed Athrun was dissatisfied with his role in Orb. If Cagalli did notice, she was too busy with her own problems to even mention it. Durandal has given Athrun the chance to protect his homeland from genocidal madmen. Cagalli and Kira are offering Athrun the chance to support a plan that has already failed and to do it Athrun will have to abandon the Minerva, who tried to save a world that hates them, just when they need Athrun most.

Burke Rukes wrote:
And watching this whole painful meeting is Lunamaria, who's snooping in on their talk with surveillance equipment. Is she tailing Athrun because of her crush, or professional curiosity... or was she ordered to follow him by Talia and see what he's up to?


I thought it was pretty obviously the last.

Burke Rukes wrote:
I can understand him going to the PLANTs to try to get a handle on the situation there, but he should've come right back home to Orb - minus the new ZAFT uniform and the "special authority" he's hardly even touching.


As you previously pointed out, Orb isn't really home for Athrun. And as Shinn asked, what is he supposed to do there?

Burke Rukes wrote:
... but she's lost her heart in the process, said heart having been ripped out by Athrun.


And Cagalli hadn't already done this to Athrun by breaking the engagement? Did you see the look on Athrun's face when Lunamaria told him Cagalli was marrying Yuna?

Burke Rukes wrote:
I'm thinking Durandel may indeed be some sort of mastermind behind a lot of the events happening - even the Break the World incident and attempted assassination of Lacus, but he means what he says about wanting to expose and stop Logos and put an end to bloody wars.


Right on all points.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:47 am 
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Der Bigen Slicen
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If Athrun has no home in ORB, then why
Spoiler: show
is he an ORB Admiral at the end of SE4?

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:50 am 
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Mecha Flunky

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Chris wrote:
]How is it not fair? Between SEED and GSD, we're never shown any sympathetic characters in the Earth Alliance outside of the Archangel and Admiral Halberton.


We're not shown individuals, but the western part of the Eurasian Federation was opposed to the war and got Destroy-ed for it. The Republic of East Asia joined ZAFT in attacking Heaven's Base once LOGOS was reveal.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:16 pm 
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Mecha Flunky

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Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
I dunno, I just think it's plain bad writing. Luna has no reason to suspect that Meyrin would have been any kind of spy, coerced or not. She should be royally pissed but because Shinn needs a new girlfriend, it gets overlooked. Plus their attraction still comes out of the blue.


Apparently killing Kira seemed to work for Athrun getting Cagalli in Seed. :)

Actually, there evidence of Luna having some interest in Shinn before this. Even when she's talking to Athrun, Luna's usually talking about Shinn. For that matter, Shinn sure seemed jealous about the amount of time Lunamaria spent paying attention to Athrun.

Luna does have reasons to believe Meyrin was not a spy. OTOH, she's seen Meer in Athrun's bed the day after he put his arm around Meyrin and she started to put her head on Athrun's shoulder. Once claims start being made about Athrun, the idea that Athrun was just using Meer and Meyrin and trying to get them to defect seems credible.

Shinn was the tool used to shoot down Athrun and Meyrin, but he was clearly distraught about having done so and his apology was genuine. Frankly, it's the first time in the series Shinn acted like an adult - he took responsibility for his actions; he realized what he had done had hurt people he cared about.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:28 pm 
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Mecha Flunky

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LightningCount wrote:
I enjoyed this whole escape sequence. But the way that the GOUF is destroyed but Athrun and Meyrin survive, especially after what they pulled with Kira and the Freedom, is kind of goofy and annoying. These false death scenes of SEED and now Destiny seem to go too far, too often.


Try Gundam 00, where
Spoiler: show
virtually every character who appears to die at the end of first season turns out to have survived
.

LightningCount wrote:
(But we do see here that Shinn wavers and tries to talk with Athrun, suggesting he's not as mindless as people pin him to be).


Shinn's haunted by it afterwards as well.

But this episode was the tipping point. After he's apparently killed friends, Shinn does his best to convince himself that it was neccessary to produce a world where there will be no war. He doesn't want to admit that he was responsible for something horrible, anymore than he wants to consider that returning Stella to Phantom Pain directly lead to the death of thousands. He's in too deep to admit he's wrong.

Of course, this episode is the point of decision for several characters.


Last edited by Fiver on Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Mecha Flunky

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Burke Rukes wrote:
Djibril is making yet another escape, escorted by some Orb soldiers. Okay, I have to point out another "wtf" thing here. The Orb military works for and answers to their own chain of command and the Orb government. Djibril is just a guest, they don't work for him or follow his orders.


Remember the soldiers who let the Extendeds in for the Gundamjack back at the start of the series. They might have been wearing ZAFT uniforms, but they were clearly working for Phantom Pain.

It's the same for these guys, they may be wearing Orb uniforms but their true loyalty is obviously to Logos.

Burke Rukes wrote:
During this scene we see flashback clips of Rau Le Creuset getting shot, losing his mask, and young Rey with Rau and Durandal - I wonder what this means? Anyway, Rey says the Chairman is right, and that's good enough for him.


Rey's point is that being the original does not make you right. The flashback is a reminder that Rau is Rey's "original". Rau tried to destroy humanity; Durandal is trying to end war. It's no wonder Rey thinks Durandal is right.

Burke Rukes wrote:
Daedalus base launches... dunh-dunh-DUNH, a few more of those big, bad Destroy Gundams. And they're quickly taken out by Rey and Shinn. Seriously, the big scary superweapon that Stella originally piloted has become small fry at this point - it's rather sad. Or bad writing.


It's like ninjas, the less there are, the more powerful they become. :)

For the original Destroy, it was said Stella was best suited to pilot it. Even Sting, also an Extended, couldn't match her, and the others are piloted by unaugmented Naturals. Plus Shinn has found their weakness.

But that should have been more on screen and there should have been less Destroys.

Burke Rukes wrote:
I wonder what, exactly, he's thanking him for? For ultimately being an unwitting puppet in Durandal's long-term schemes, perhaps?


Correct.

Burke Rukes wrote:
I sort of felt happy for Murrue except... NEO IS A WAR CRIMINAL! *sigh* I'm not letting this one go, folks.


Ultimately, Seed and Destiny are about forgiveness.

Athrun, Dearka, and Yzak were war criminals in Seed. Thanks to their actions Heliopolis was destroyed and many civilians died. When the three visited Nicol's grave earky in Destiny, they recalled being tried for the destruction of Heliopolis, with Durandal as their defense attorney.

Burke Rukes wrote:
Kira wishes that everyone's dreams could be the same, but Athrun - thinking of Shinn - says they already are, it's just most people don't realize it yet. I think this is very profound - particularly in how all 3 of them - Athrun, Kira and Shinn - all want the same thing, an end to the fighting and wars and senseless death, to be able to protect their loved ones. This was a nice little scene. :)


Agreed.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Fiver, don't multi-post like that. If you have things to say to multiple people, just edit your responses into a single post. Otherwise it just clutters things up.

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:36 pm 
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Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
That's exactly my point. People assume that because all the EA characters we see are evil, everyone in the EA is evil. But the only EA characters we see are directly connected to Blue Cosmos and Logos.


That's if we ignore Admiral Haliburton, Murrue, Mu, and the rest of the Archangel crew in Seed. For that matter, the EA forces at Artemis base weren't big Coordinator fans, but they weren't genocidal, either.

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
All of that makes perfect sense from their point of view, with the knowledge that they have access to.

Compare this with the average member of ZAFT.


The average member of ZAFT doesn't know that 3 of the new Gundams were built for fighting in Earth enviroments and their existence doesn't prove they planned to invade the Earth. ZAFT doesn't had over the Coordinator terrorists because they are all dead. The switch from acting in self-defense to fighting LOGOS to intending the Destiny Plan is Durandal changing what he says his goals are. Political opposition to Durandal isn't shown, but in the last battle a significant section of ZAFT either tries to avoid fighting or turns against Durandal. They certainly aren't all following him unquestioningly.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
If Athrun has no home in ORB, then why
Spoiler: show
is he an ORB Admiral at the end of SE4?


When Athrun was struggling in the early part of Destiny, he wasn't an admiral. Save Cagalli, his friends were living in the Marshall Islands (Lacus and Kira) or the PLANTs (Dearka & Yzak). No one in Orb, including Cagalli, was listening to him or giving him the chance to make a difference.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:48 pm 
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Der Bigen Slicen
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Dude, Burke hasn't seen SE4 yet...
Spoiler: show
If that's the case then, why did he bother going back?

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Lackey GM Pilot

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Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Dude, Burke hasn't seen SE4 yet...


I plan to soon, after I wrap up my run through 00. So much Gundam to watch, so little time. :P But when I do I'll drop back into this thread to discuss anything from them that jumps out at me.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:32 am 
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Mecha Flunky

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Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Dude, Burke hasn't seen SE4 yet...


Sorry, thought Burke had seen everything.

It’s pretty trivial as a spoilers go , though some people read a lot into it.

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
If that's the case then, why did he bother going back?


Why did Athrun go back to Orb?

The first time he was looking for the Minerva, the ship he’d been assigned to.

The second time Rey and Durandal framed him for treason; he was carried unconscious to the Archangel; and the Archangel decided to return to Orb.

Spoiler: show
The third time Athrun and Meyrin went to visit the cenotaph for Orb’s war dead, meeting Kira and Lacus, Shinn and Luna.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Der Bigen Slicen
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Spoiler: show
I meant why did he go back and become an admiral.

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AMURO: What? Don't be ridiculous- Tomino is just an abstract construct, he doesn't really exist.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:41 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0kZx_R8 ... ture=feedu

I'll just leave this here.

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