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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:59 pm 
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Monster of the Week

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According to the legends, there's bad blood between Naomi Shindoh (Cagalli's actress) and Chiaki Morosawa (the head writer) that extends as far back as their work on the My-HiME franchise


*SPITS OUT COFFEE* WHAT!? I find this hard to believe! *does research*

.............

.................................

The worst anime I've completed (not worst anime ever, that title belongs to Nanoha) and my favorite gundam series...... The same head writer......... How does that........ I don't even....... Clearly this is........ WHAT!?

And apparently Cagalli's voice actress also did the lesbian with the zanbatou, no wonder she had beef again the writers.

Pardon me, my mind has been blown a bit.


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:35 am 
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Burke Rukes wrote:
...since when did Coordinators have telepathic abilities...?

They don't. However, the English translator/editor missed the fact that Gai makes some pretty obvious signals (taking off his glasses, IIRC) to his buddy to signal when things are going to go down. Since the translator or editor missed this, they added in the blurb about telepathy, possibly because they knew it existed in other Gundam stories, or just because they couldn't figure out what was going on otherwise.


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:53 am 
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Der Bigen Slicen
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Gah, and now you're on to 00 already!

Well, to wrap up this discussion on SEED Destiny, I offer my thoughts. I'll hopefully not to get into General Hate levels of invective here.

I'm going to back a bit to SEED here and reiterate that I liked SEED, it is actually one of my favorite Gundam shows. And while I do frown on it using so many plot points from First Gundam, I was eager and excited to see what came next. At that point I was still learning a lot about Gundam. I had only seen Wing, Endless Waltz, 08th MS Team, 0083, Char's Counterattack and bits and pieces of G Gundam and First Gundam. As you can see, all of the stuff that was originally aired on Toonami. As a sidenote, I REALLY need to go back and watch CCA, because the first time I saw, It was because I was just buying everything with Gundam in the name and because I had no knowledge of 0079, Zeta, or ZZ, CCA really wierded me out.
Anyway, I saw SEED and thought it was awesome. And then came Destiny. You know what? I compare my experiences with SEED and Destiny to the first two Transformers movies. When I saw Transformers 1, yeah it had its flaws but it was one awesome movie. I then saw Revenge of the Fallen three years later and felt first extreme disappointment and then betrayal. Now I'm not saying that Destiny is as bad as Revenge. I'd take any Gundam production (except G Saviour), including the SD Gundam series over Revenge any day of the year. I'm just making a point.
Destiny left me with the same feeling of deep disappointment, and the more of learned about it, the less I like it. Now most people on this board and elsewhere seem to say that it started going downhill either in episode 13 or about 20 or so. Me? It started going downhill from the very first episode where it starts off the same way as SEED did (remember I didn't know this was a trope at the time), has a wild and crazy chase across space and then they end up on Earth. Now they did have the Break The World incident here but once again they dropped the ball. The Coordinator terrorists could have been great for Athrun's development but they are only in one episode. It's up to Stargazer to go more into the full effects of the Junius 7 drop.
Things just muddled along with some good scenes until the Final Fantasy X wedding with Kira proving that swooping isn't necessarily a bad thing (what did I just make a reference too? :) ). I could go on but I'm just going to comment on a few things from the last few episodes and Final Plus.

I already called foul on Cagalli handing over the Akatsuki. I still say there wouldn't really have been anything wrong with her going with the others to the final battle. Cagalli's character getting destroyed and her relationship with Athrun getting destroyed are one of my biggest gripes with the series and one of the major reasons I hate on it to this day.

Oh Talia. She was the more professional version of Ramius but even she started suffering character problems near the end. She was tough but fair and even merciful to her enemies to a degree. But she wouldn't stand up to Durandal and then she uselessly dies at the end. Someone please explain this to me because I just cannot grasp this. She's going to abandon her young son, whom she had left Durandal to have, because she wants to die with Durandal for some reason? He's just set himself up as an evil dictator, minutes ago she was outraged that he fired on his own troops but now she's going to die with him??! There is nothing in her character to indicate this, unless her professionalism was just a complete front. Personally? I think it's some of that asian misogyny creeping in again.

Meer Campbell: most useless character in Gundam. Actually no I take that back, the trash man from ZZ and others are more useless. So, most useless character in Cosmic Era. Her only contribution to Destiny: Being a more bouncing breasts, sluttier version of Lacus. To have had Phase 46 devoted almost entirely to such a minor character? Inexcusable.

Shinn Asuka could have been the Gundamn Batman of all Gundamdom. Instead he's just an angry little punk that ends up getting punked by Athrun and Lord Yamato. As I said before, I don't mind if he's supposed to be a raging anti-hero, I just wish he'd been an anti-hero with a brain.

All I'm going to say about Mu/Neo is that he got hit by an ANTIMATTER BEAM. The writer's don't even understand their own science. At least stuff like Star trek tries to keep its fake science straight. Oh and Batman and Superman's resurrections are more clearly explained than Mu's.

I don't subscribe to the theory that the TSA had a "completely flawless victory" at the end of the series. Some of their ships got blown up, so that's not flawless, is it? Still they did have to have a special edition final episode becasue that last one was so awful.

I believe that Shinn should have been present for the little tete-a-tete re: Kira and Durandel. And I also don't understand why Rey shot Durandal. Makes no sense. Speaking of Rey, here's another dropped plot thread. Rey is a much younger version of Rau le Cruset. He's apparently a year younger than Kira, so when was he created and by whom? How many clones are there? Why was there even more than one?

Other things--
I don't really have any favorite mechs in this series as most of the designs are so lazy in this series. I don't mind the Destiny or the Akatsuki (I actually don't think it's a ripoff of the Hyaku Shiki) but Destiny is ultimately just a bunch of Impulse's weapons glommed onto one suit and the Akatsuki is too damn shiny. I can't decide about the Destroy but you have to admit, it could probably tear most UC giant mobile suits and mobile armors to shreds.

I could do with less acronyms from the Cosmic Era, especially since we still don't know what the SEED means for humanity other than a Super Mario power-up.

Ultimately, Destiny frustrated me to no end and caused me to develop something of a dark mood towards Gundam for a number of years. I finally began snapping out of it as I began to listen to the Gundamn! podcast and watched 00 back in 2007. I was also inspired by them to watch Zeta Gundam for the first time while I waited for episodes of 00.
In the final analysis, Destiny is on the very bottom of the pile for me. I've recently expanded my Gundam horizons and I've now seen First Gundam, Zeta, 08th MS Team, 0083, CCA, F91, Victory, G Gundam, Wing/Endless Waltz, Gundam X, SEED, 00/Trailblazer, Gunpla Builders and what we have so far of Unicorn and AGE. I can't be sure about AGE but as far as I'm concerned everything else in that list is better than Destiny.

And yes, LightningCount, I understand more of what your grievances are with 00, but I will continue to contend that 00 is the best Gundam to have come out of 2000-2009.

Also, I was poking around on the web and found several sites that say that Chiaki Morosawa passed away back in 2009. I'm willing to bet this is more internetz rumourz but maybe it's true?

And Burke, I agree with Antares,when you get more of a chance, you gotta check out Thundermuffin's A Typical Episode of Gundam SEED Destiny. It's one of the most hilarious parodies I've ever read. Check it out in the Fanfic thread. And as one final shameless plug--
Thundermuffin wrote:
(Kira Yamato, pilot of the legendary mobile suit Freedom, walks onto the bridge.)

CAGALLI: Is it me, or did it just get more invincible in here?

KIRA: (Blushes) Oh you.

MURRUE: Kira-kun, we need to send you out ahead of Cagalli, to protect her and enforce the peace we will be laying down on their collective asses.

KIRA: Leave it to me! Nothing like the menacing specter of a nuclear-powered, mobile WMD looming over to push people into getting along!

Thundermuffin wrote:
MEYRIN: Ma’am! The Archangel has arrived and launched a giant, man-shaped robot at us! Likelihood of it being a mobile-suit… (Meyrin does some quick calculations on her console)…ninety-nine point eight percent!

ARTHUR: Good God, that’s almost a hundred-percent!

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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:08 am 
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Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
I don't mind the Destiny or the Akatsuki (I actually don't think it's a ripoff of the Hyaku Shiki)


I actually liked a lot of the MS from SEED Destiny. Abyss was cool but impractical for aquatic use (no phonon masers is a bloody crime). The Saviour is bloody awesome, Athrun should get shot for not using it to its full potential. The Gaia is practical, could have done with the beam cannons being usable in MS mode though. The Chaos was excellently armed and pretty well balanced. The Destiny was a good idea, just never made full use of the Wings of Light. It should have been able to run circles around even other Gundams, but never really made full use of it. The Destroy was ridiculous in many ways, fundamentally flawed, but hey, rule of cool. Murasames, ZAKUs and Windams were all good grunt units.

What I didn't like were the MS that copied too much of the originals. The new Justice and Freedom were simple h4x0r upgrades to the originals, and both the Legend and Impulse were just sleeker-looking copies of the Providence and Strike. I will admit that the Impulse's silhouettes - not so much Force, but Sword and Blast - were clearly superior to the original striker packs in both firepower and usability. But it was just too much a copy. Why even bother buying the model kits if it looks so similar to Strike?

I do agree with you that the Akatsuki is hardly a ripoff of the Hyaku Shiki. Did you know that in Zeta, the Hyaku Shiki never once actually displayed any ability to reflect/deflect beams? So the Akatsuki's ability is entirely new and original, unless you consider the non-canon stuff. The more you know.


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:35 am 
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Creepy Bishonen

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Izayuukan wrote:
The Saviour is bloody awesome, Athrun should get shot for not using it to its full potential.


One of the Hobby Japan magazines had a beautiful article where someone customized the Saviour into the CE's Zeta Gundam. It was an absolutely stunning work that actually made me want to see it as a HG model.

Quote:
The new Justice and Freedom were simple h4x0r upgrades to the originals,


I actually preferred the original versions, not that those were my favorites, but that they were cleaner designs than the 'verniered-up-the-ass' and 'bigger-backpack' versions of Destiny.

Quote:
]I will admit that the Impulse's silhouettes - not so much Force, but Sword and Blast - were clearly superior to the original striker packs in both firepower and usability.


Sword isn't mode powerful, really, but it does have backups of the main weapons. The Blast is also a bit iffy, since the guns aren't shown to be as powerful as the Launcher's main cannon and it doesn't have the high-powered close range guns that the Launcher has on the shoulder. The Blast does include a beam javelin, though, which rounds out the Blast more than the Launcher in the melee department.

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But it was just too much a copy. Why even bother buying the model kits if it looks so similar to Strike?


Having them side-by-side, they are clearly different designs in many respects. It's just that they're usually utilized to show off the 'toyetic' launcher packs so much that the Impulse feels like a redeux.

Quote:
I do agree with you that the Akatsuki is hardly a ripoff of the Hyaku Shiki. Did you know that in Zeta, the Hyaku Shiki never once actually displayed any ability to reflect/deflect beams? So the Akatsuki's ability is entirely new and original, unless you consider the non-canon stuff. The more you know.


It's an homage, not a rip-off. The Hyaku Shiki was merely beam resistant with its coating. I guess for Destiny that wasn't flashy enough, so it had to visually refract the beam weaponry as well. Of course, there is a very correct note that a positron beam is not a beam attack, and is a frackin' anti-matter attack. The Akatsuki should have been reduced to gamma radiation at that point.


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:12 pm 
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Der Bigen Slicen
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That's because the writers don't know their own show's science.

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AMURO: What? Don't be ridiculous- Tomino is just an abstract construct, he doesn't really exist.


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:17 pm 
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Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
That's because the writers don't know their own show's science.


Sadly true, particularly when Destiny came around and started inventing new 'science' every other episode for 'dramatic purposes'. If they had just black-boxed it, or at least didn't use real world terms for their super-science, it wouldn't have been quite so jarring.

Gundam 00 tops this, of course, basing its entire show on science that it s wrong (solar furnaces really exist and are NOT what 00 shows, despite using all the related terms, etc.) and throwing out even 'more' super-science by getting even science terms wrong...

Ugh.. it's like the tech writers of Star Trek: Voyager took jobs at Sunrise.


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Burke Rukes wrote:
Here's some more of my thoughts on Destiny now that I've wrapped up my viewing (aside from Special 4, which I will probably get around to watching the SEED & Destiny Specials after I get through 00).

Too bad I missed out on the end of the series, everybody was letting it out and expounding on their feelings, without the AAAAIIIIGH factor that made episode commentary somewhat crazy back in 2005. :) My final verdict on GSD is that it was a passable anime, even a good one in places. Unfortunately, it had the potential to be great, and missed out on being great, even to the extent of its predecessor, and that disappointed a lot of fans who could see the potential but never got the follow-through.

Quote:
We STILL never found out how Mu survived getting incinerated in the Strike who rescued him, and why he was brainwashed/programmed into being Neo Roanoke....I dunno, that, along with other elements of the story, particularly late in the series, just felt like fan-wanking. I don't like this whole thing, but I so much wanted Murrue and Mu/Neo to have their happily ever after... *shrug*

This was one story feature that never went over with the fans over here, and was somewhat controversial even in Japan. It seemed they wanted to do us all a favor and restore Mu, missing out on the fact he had achieved mighty status by going out in style. But there he was, somehow, and we had to deal with it. At least "Neo" Mu didn't get written off, and stayed in to the end to make a newer, better life for himself and Murrue.

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Speaking of fan-wanking... one of my other biggest problems with the series overall is... who am I supposed to be cheering for? The series starts off with ZAFT clearly being the good guys (including extremely hate-worthy and yet clearly-understandable Shinn) and following them, but as soon as Kira and the old Archangel gang are brought back into the action partway through the series... the ZAFT pilots & Minerva crew became a mixture of bad guys (Rey, Shinn) or good guys working for the bad guys (also Shinn, Lunamaria, Talia, etc.).

This is a valid criticism, and it led to a lot of internet ink being spilled on the subject. I do think the story unfolded more or less as planned, in that the continuing war had no "good" side between Earth Alliance and the PLANTs. Both sides had done a lot of damage to each other, and the continuation of extreme viewpoints made a fight to the finish inevitable, if not necessary. LOGOS had empowered Djibril, so they were in for the finish 100%. Durandel ended up the villain because he was over-correcting, and wanting to become a benevolent autocrat as per Republic and Brave New World. If both sides are flawed, then the Three Ships/Terminal faction become the good guys by default, if they are believably sincere about ending the war. The PC line common in Japan got played a lot more than some Gundam stories,and justifying character actions based on actually upholding that line made for some odd situations. The characters in the field were shown to be sincere about it, which at least made for some good drama and action setup.

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Shinn... such a wasted opportunity for a Gundam hero. I could've totally accepted him as an anti-hero lead for a Gundam series, which would have been refreshing and different... IF he'd had some actual character growth. But he didn't. And that's why he was the single most frustrating element, alongside Athrun (who I'll get to in a bit), of this whole series. His character went NOWHERE.

Yeah, Shinn didn't earn his hero spot, and the story shifted to reflect it. I am not sure the staff officially acknowledged it or not, but Shinn's gradual eclipse by the older heroes showed he wasn't making the grade. It seemed at times after Diocula Base that Shinn was being deliberately groomed as a non-thinking loyal destroyer, to be unleashed at the whim of the Chairman, and petted and rewarded for his actions, no matter who they hurt, or what they accomplished. This was a definite trope-buster, since Gundam heroes are expected to be the guys who think about why they get in the cockpit. Did it work out well or not? YMMV for sure... Now, Shinn's non-hero development did have me ready to believe Durandel as a villain. So perhaps Shinn was set up to fail compared to Athrun and Kira after all, which makes me wonder then why so much story was invested in him to begin with.

Quote:
And Athrun... poor Athrun. He could have become the sempai mentor for Shinn and helped him along with his much-needed character growth. It's sad that Athrun tells Shinn during the big final battle that he needs to stop living with his head stuck in the past. Athrun should've told this to Shinn 40 or so episodes sooner! But then, Athrun himself spent half the series with -his- head stuck in the past as well... as did we all, as the director cranked up the "spam the audience with flashback clips" dial to 11.

Ever wonder what GSD might have been like if even half of all the flashback segments had been replaced with actual story elements? I did for a while, and it about drove me up the wall. So much money and momentum wasted, and it led to the sequel becoming a parody of the first one at times, instead of being a true extension of it. Anyway, like I said earlier, having Athrun reprise his SEED journey of discovery did him, and his friends and comrades, no good. He started out so well, then lost his spine and spent about 10 episodes sulking instead of asserting himself as the hero and leader he was supposed to be.

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Luna had a couple of opportunities to really question what she and her teammates were doing, had enough evidence personally witnessed to realize that -something- stunk really bad, but....ultimately she did nothing, and instead became Shinn's impromptu snuggle-bunny. Oh well.

Dominion-kun really liked Lunamaria as a character, and was furious when she got demoted to being Shinn's comped girlfriend. Even today he still gets heated about the careless waste of a female character like that. To reprise a criticism I made back when about it, Fa Yuri got more serious treatment ad both a MS pilot and a love interest. On the whole, Luna-chan and Cagalli got demoted to the type of stock anime heroines who make all their decisions based on their feelings of the moment, place all the burdens of decision on the hero, and never think about what could happen tomorrow, or the day after it. It was lazy writing, and unforgivable to me because Gundam was one of the ground-breaking anime for having female characters that could be part of the action, instead of watching it from the sidelines with a plate of cookies and a roll of bandages.

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Despite my initial admiration for him, and totally digging his words and thought-provoking dialogue, I was always suspicious of Durandal from the start. I'm an anarcho-libertarian, which means I distrust all politicians, no matter how nice and slick of a package they come in. And ultimately, as I suspected he would, he turned out to be the Big Bad. But he was about as great a Big Bad as they come! And like all tyrants, who may have started off with good intentions, but get caught up in their fevered egos, fueled by the power they possess, thinking their way is the only way, ends up being just as bad as those they're trying to do away with. A fascinating, and tragic, and even sympathetic villain. Definitely a real highlight for this series. :)

That's a pretty good summary of Durandel, and may explain why Shuichi Ikeda was willing to take the part. Durandel is a complex Gundam villain, who sincerely wants to fix the problems the CE 'verse has made for itself. The conversations Athrun has with Shinn could also be applied to the Chairman. Meaning to do good and prevent further evil, he is going to go too far and force people to conform to his ideal future. Then he will become hurt and disappointed and kill-crazy when other people refuse to play along. He has a great presentation, and may even believe it at times, but to see the real Durandel, say "So what if I say no?" :) He also serves as a reminder to Athrun that the citizens of the PLANTs are not as free as the PR might make it. Truly free people can live their own lives without getting government permission to do so. They will be the sort of people who will live in peace, and leave others in peace, for the most part.

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Kira and Lacus and the old gang... it was great to see them back, and it was great that they had an active part in the series... but they truly stole the spotlight.

I like many others suspected that Sunrise (and paymaster Bandai) disapproved of director Fukuda's original storyline, and leaned on him to make changes in an attempt to protect the potential AU franchise. Kira and Lacus were pretty much the prince and princess of Gundam in Japan for nearly all of the past decade, with related sales to match. ;) However, since the dirty laundry was not washed in public, we might as well skip it and take the story as written. Yeah, it would have made for a tighter story if the TSA crew had an actual background supporting role. Given the first dozen or so episodes, it seemed like that would be the situation. However, the GSD story set potential allies and comrades at each others' throats, so we can take it as a lesson for all Gundam heroes to be careful to look before they leap into a conflict. Athrun, Cagalli, and Shinn all made hasty decisions based on too little information and too much personal turmoil, and they had the good fortune to live to regret it. (Some other supporting characters were not so lucky.)

That aside, looking back there was a sense of "we can top that" that was making its way into anime at the time, especially the big dramatic pieces like Gundam. It wasn't enough for the production staff to have Big Reveals, Big Dam Hero stunts, and other Big Moments at the appropriate times in the story. There was a gradual cascade effect of Big Scene on top of Big Scene, until the audience was numb...or rebellious. Given the way GSD kept turning up the drama meter to "11", we should not have been surprised to see what happened in Gundam 00 or Code Geass. One of those animes was able to overcome its cascade effect and turn into a successful sci-fi mecha drama. The other one crashed and burned in a most spectacular fashion in its second season. We'll let Burke make the call on which one is which in a little while when he gets further into 00, ne? :D

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I was sad to see them end up going their separate ways (if, indeed, they HAVE, it's still a little vague, but it does seem to be the general consensus), but... that's life. Sometimes things don't work out. I'm sure Mirialla and Dearka could talk about that (there's another story I'd love to hear :P ).

If wishes were horses, the Athrun & Cagalli shippers would own a herd in Colorado. :D Maybe the supposed movie was supposed to get them together again, and at teh time I liked them as a couple enough to wish for it. Unfortunately, the relationship was thoroughly story-sabotaged as much as the Kou-Nina romance in Stardust Memory, minus the bullet of course. Both of them might gain from starting over again and remaining old friends.

As for the fate of the Milly-Dearka ship, well, that one got torpedoed in port. At the scene where she officially returned to Archangel and got asked about it, the translated line is "I dumped him." The original Japanese line reads as "I threw him away." Ouch!

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I also want to talk about Meer Campbell, and her personality and background. I honestly thought the 2 episodes near the end which ended her story and gave us some insight into her was a refreshing and welcome breather before the final big battle. She was another tragic character, a product of both others' design and whatever childhood traumas caused her to WANT to be someone else, someone she idolized, rather than herself. (This is an interesting recurring theme in this series, dealing with false identities: Athrun/Alex, Neo/Mu, Rey/Rau, Meer/"Lacus".)

Now that I look back on it, Meer is the not-subtle example to prove that Durandel's Destiny Plan was not going to be the perfect fix for a lot of people. It was Meer's "destiny" to be like Lacus, but not the real one, and she ended up regretting it.

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It's the implementation of the plan that I'm really wondering about. Durandel wanted to create a society where everything is engineered and controlled and managed and planned, with the focus being on the genetic side of things... and yet... human beings are more than their genetic code. We're the summation of our experiences and memories, our joys and traumas, and so on.

That's the main theme of all the SEED anime right there. Sure, physical and quantifiable mental characteristics are important and provide a solid foundation for personal growth. But as the Coordinators proved, even if everybody is pretty and athletic and smart, some people will still do well, and some will not. Some people will find their place in society, some will not, and some people will decide their place is not right and needs to be made to fit them a little better. Some people will accept their setbacks, and either surpass them, or at least learn to live with the limitations. Some people will not accept their setbacks/limitations, and will try to remove them....or look about for somebody else to take the blame. But human society needs the perpetual search for consensus and the resolution of conflict. Otherwise, how will we determine what is desirable and what is not? It drives everybody who wants a well-planned, tightly-run shop crazy, but things still manage to get done and we all move on. And I'm not just saying that because I was on the staff of a successful anime con this past weekend, either. :D

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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:29 pm 
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Jaynz wrote:
Izayuukan wrote:
The Saviour is bloody awesome, Athrun should get shot for not using it to its full potential.


One of the Hobby Japan magazines had a beautiful article where someone customized the Saviour into the CE's Zeta Gundam. It was an absolutely stunning work that actually made me want to see it as a HG model.


I believe this is what he's describing.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:56 am 
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PowerdGNFlag wrote:
I believe this is what he's describing.


That thing is so awesome my brain had to reboot after crashing from all of the awesomeness. Wow.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:58 am 
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Worse than Athrun only using the Saviour as transforming-practice,
Spoiler: show
it's even more bewildering that ZAFT never rebuilt it AND Terminal never bothered to steal it. I mean, seriously, you mean that Terminal thought that stealing the Gaia was a better deal than stealing the Saviour????


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:29 am 
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Not quite sure how this can be a spoiler, but...

Spoiler: show
domino wrote:
Worse than Athrun only using the Saviour as transforming-practice,
it's even more bewildering that ZAFT never rebuilt it AND Terminal never bothered to steal it. I mean, seriously, you mean that Terminal thought that stealing the Gaia was a better deal than stealing the Saviour????


I'm going to write this one off for 'pilot selection'. The Gaia was a perfect suit for Andrew, so its use by him didn't bother me all that much. The Saviour not getting more attention is an oddity, though. It was a nice, simple-yet-effective suit that would have been a perfect frame for a production run.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:51 am 
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I don't think spoiler tags are that necessary here given that they were used for Burke's benefit and he's already moved.

Burke, I was a bit surprised not to see more comments on Stargazer, though. Sven is quite generally seen as a cool cat by the fandom, whereas Mudie gets suitably brutally killed for it to be of some note, and Shams just throws his life away... all good stuff! ;)

Also, did you have a chance to check out the Gundam Seed/Destiny Character Theatres? I at least found them suitably funny back in the day to soothe my pain from being so disappointed in Destiny the first time around.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:13 am 
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Antares wrote:
Also, did you have a chance to check out the Gundam Seed/Destiny Character Theatres? I at least found them suitably funny back in the day to soothe my pain from being so disappointed in Destiny the first time around.


I'll second that! The SD shorts are looney tunes fun, and really kill the bitter with the funny. They are a good flashback to the earlier SD UC shorts, which also gleefully self-bashed themselves.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:04 pm 
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After thinking about it some more, I have to recant about the mobile suits a bit. My favorite designs from Destiny are the Saviour, the Murasames and the Windams.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:40 am 
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Antares wrote:
I don't think spoiler tags are that necessary here given that they were used for Burke's benefit and he's already moved.


Yep, I've seen it all now, so un-spoil away, folks. :)

Antares wrote:
Burke, I was a bit surprised not to see more comments on Stargazer, though.


Y'know, it was kinda late when I watched it, maybe I was just tired and the fact that it had a very different look and feel from Destiny itself threw me off, frankly. I'll give it another watch soon, and try to absorb it better, and maybe then I'll have more to say about Stargazer. :)

Antares wrote:
Also, did you have a chance to check out the Gundam Seed/Destiny Character Theatres? I at least found them suitably funny back in the day to soothe my pain from being so disappointed in Destiny the first time around.


I did get and watch those, yeah. Are there 4 total, because that's how many I have on-hand. They were good, silly, funny fluff. :D

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:03 pm 
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Quote:
I did get and watch those, yeah. Are there 4 total, because that's how many I have on-hand. They were good, silly, funny fluff. :D

Yep, just four. I had hoped they'd be more, especially with Yzak and Dearka. :)

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:03 pm 
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I liked how Cagalli became a Gundam even more literally than Setsuna wanted to do.

And is it wrong of me to like SD Shinn more than the regular version? :)

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:14 pm 
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And is it wrong of me to like SD Shinn more than the regular version? :)

No, SD Shinn was just adorable, even in his whackiness.

Plus one of my friends who liked SEED and... well, didn't quite hate Destiny told me numerous times afterwards that the "Kiraaaa..." "Athruuuuuuun" -exchange in the first ep ruined both of those characters for her for life. :mrgreen:

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:23 am 
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I have to say, it's nice to see a new look at the Cosmic Era. So many years, so many arguments, it's incredibly refreshing to see a new view on the trainwreck (so to speak) that Destiny became. And, indeed, seeing you experience both Seed and Destiny through brand new eyes really made me appreciate both Seed and Destiny in a new light. For quite a while, even though the intense distaste over Destiny's ending had faded, the aftertaste remained quite strong. Enough to make me frown on Seed at the same time. But you know what? They're pretty solid works, and I'm kinda sad I didn't fully see it before.
I thank you for that fresh look, Burke.

About Shin Asuka
That said, I do feel in a fleetingly small group who really did like Shin as a character. Honestly, I feel he was an alternate take on Kamille Bidan, but one with far more problems than Kamille ever thought he had. The Cosmic Era was always about problems with communication, so I felt the lack of communication Shin had with his "mentor figure" Athrun worked incredibly well for the theme. While Kamille and Not-Char came to an understanding, if not complete trust due to the secrets Not-Char kept, similar problems and abrasive personalities (not to mention a lot of awkwardness from Athrun not having a damned clue how to be a mentor in the first place) simply drove a massive wedge between what could have been a good relationship for the two of them.
Indeed, I did find Shin rather refreshing, coming after a string of "nice guys" for protagonists. As much as I really love characters like Shiro, Garrod, Loran and even Kira (before Destiny), it was incredibly interesting to see a character who was struggling to deal with immense loss and helplessness the only way he knew how: by making ZOINKS explode. Like Kamille before him, Shin found more than a few people who understood him, or at least could tie themselves into Shin's life in a way that could calm the rage he carried like a coat. In a nice twist, though, I can't help but notice that two who really could have helped Shin (Kira and Athrun)... simply were not able to. Kira and Athrun have both suffered immense losses through war and witnessed firsthand the devastation caused by mankind acting like rampant jackanapes. In the well-documented case of Athrun, it was due to simple miscommunication. Kira, like last time, just found him on the wrong side of the conflict. Who knows? Maybe now that they're magically buddies, it'll help Shin heal.

...of course, I suppose it is rather telling that I prefer Shin Asuka's portrayal in Dynasty Warriors Gundam and the various Super Robot Wars games that aren't SRW K, where the writing of Destiny is far, far away and things can be presented in a more equal light. Where Dullindal might still be an evil man with good intentions and Rey still might have more intentions than being Shin's friend... but Shin still gets to have actual moments to shine that aren't upended by turning into Dullindal's rabid attack dog.
It's a bit like how Shinji from Evangelion is able to grow as a character without being beaten down by the script of Evangelion each time, thanks to the support and encouragement of those around him. I'm still amused to see Shin in Dynasty Warriors Gundam 2, putting his thoughts into actual words - about how somehow bringing change to the world is bad, but that preserving the status quo that is the Cosmic Era's eternal conflict is somehow good?
But I suppose that's neither here nor there...

...although, Burke, you might wanna check out Dynasty Warriors Gundam 2 as well. Athrun is a much more coherent character there, and the rage brought forth by the character is something to behold. Although everyone's been flanderized a bit for ease of "making things awesome." The dub was all I could find, but if you were ever curious to hear what dub Kira, Athrun or Shin sounded like...
Athrun vs Kira: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu-HYyTnyvI
Shin vs Athrun/Kira: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyb_pFBtIqg

...and because it amuses me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioAAx0z_2jo
Domon and Master Asia take on both Kira and Athrun.





And before I finish the post, I feel I should clarify something. I do notice I'm perhaps a little hard on Kira in my post. But I genuinely do like the guy... in Gundam Seed. Destiny Kira still summons up ambivalence within me. I want to like the guy, I know he's doing what he thinks is right... but he just seems to go about it in the worst way possible. I know the old phrase goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions," but it seems Destiny had both sides paving their own roads right over themselves.
Had Destiny not ended with "Flawless Victory", had it been a fight not over the fate of mankind, but the means by which that fate was reached, I really do feel that Destiny would have had a much more solid ending.

On the plus side, we still got an entertaining series out of the "problem" that is Destiny. I actually still do recommend it get watched alongside all of the other Gundam shows on the off occasion I'm asked off in the "boonies" of the online Gundam fandom, simply because I want everyone to form their own opinion on the show. Not to just repeat what others have said, and that's another reason why your posts were so awesome, Burke. Once again, thanks for the fresh re-look at the Cosmic Era.

Hope you enjoy Astray, in spite of the flaws that it grew as plot spackle. I know I did. :D



EDIT
Actually, might as well ask this thought.
Am I the only one who think that Cagali and Shin might have made a good couple if things were different?


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