Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

[Jaynz]

It's never specifically confirmed (I don't think) that Kira killed Shinn's family, but that doesn't matter. As I mentioned in the other thread, the truth doesn't matter, what matters is what people THINK the truth is.

It was the Calamity the was shown making the fatal burst shot, so it was Orga Sabnak's reckless attacks that killed Shinn's family.

[Wingnut]

Tech note time!

Re: Neutron Stampeder: It's not really a mini-GENESIS weapon but as the GO.com entry shows it's a device that sends free neutrons flying (hence, stampeder) which in the case of nukes apparently sets them off prematurely causing the Alliance fleet to blow itself up.

[LightningCount]

Wow, even deeper conspiracies abound... this is getting GOOD!

Yes, I like it when the viewer isn't spoon-fed. Figuring things out is half the fun! (I remember when I was dropped into Wing, and right off the bat, there were the five independent Gundam pilots, the Earth Sphere Alliance, the Specials, a mentioning of OZ and The Romefeller Foundation, etc. I was totally trying to figure out who was good and who was bad, and where everything was headed!

It's finally in these episodes that I'm truly starting to feel for Shinn, and realize that, like Athrun, he's a very lost young man right now. Lost for different reasons that Athrun, but very lost indeed...Shinn makes a comment about someone coming along and wiping out the flowers, too, someday. It's a cold comment, full of pain and cynicism and probably even a touch of nihilism... and I can understand it, though it takes Kira and Lacus by surprise...But until then, he strikes me as an angry animal, lashing out at anyone and anything, but desparately searching for one thing, one person, one target that he can lay all the blame on, and his desire for revenge...

I mentioned that Shinn is more a "beast" in battle than Athrun or Kira. But you've characterized his regular self excellently. He is an angry, frightened animal, looking to lash out and someone or something, or if not, maybe attach himself to something. I feel this explanation of yours suits his actions and reactions well in the series as he experiences new things and people. This rawness of emotions makes him have a certain presence to scenes, and I found it a welcome change from the more bottled-up Athrun and the idealistic Kira.

Durandel meets with Athrun, in what I think is one of the most fascinating and important scenes in the series so far. I normally loathe politics and politicians, but seriously... I like Durandel. I like him a LOT. And he tells Athrun so -much- good stuff in this meeting! I would love to quote it all, but this post is too freakin' long already...And yet...I really, really want Durandel to be a good guy. I seriously think he is...Durandel seems to be cut from entirely different - and quite civilized - cloth...Seriously... I'm totally digging Durandel. If only he weren't a poltician... sigh. I... trust Durandel, that he means well and is trying to do what's right, and I would think, and hope, that the real Lacus Clyne might approve of this, since they share the same desires for peace. But... Durandel just said individuals should think for themselves, not listen to what other people tell them to think. And here's "Lacus Clyne," his PR/peace propaganda puppet, telling people what to think and do. I love Durandel, but this makes him a hypocrite. And I don't want to think that about him. *sigh*...Durandel then makes an offer to Athrun - he shows him and wants to give him another new Gundam prototype, the Savior Gundam.

Like I said before, Durandel is one of my favorite characters in all of Gundam. He dominates the screen. You hit the nail on the head in your comments about why he's such a fascinating character. How can he have so much faith in others? The Alliance is calling for war, and here he is offering aid to Earth and untold powers to the AWOL Athrun. Is he doing the right thing? Is he doing the wrong thing and being a hypocrite? Does he mean harm? Does he mean to help? Is he neutral? It seems as if it's all of the above. And, yes, so much great dialogue and discussion. There is a clip episode eventually, and while most of it is reused footage, it is just devoted to Durandel's musings. One of the most entertaining clip episodes I've ever seen! lol. (I could compare Durandel to another favorite, complex character of mine from AU Gundam, but it wouldn't be a perfect match and it might be considered spoilers, so I won't).

And on the other end of the coin, you have Djibril, who is also someone the viewer can't help but pay attention to with his stalwart cunning, yet is clearly stirring up things toward a violent course. He comes across to me as more menacing than Azrael, because he seems more world-wise. And speaking of Djibril and LOGOS' relationship to Blue Cosmos, I think you're on the right track.

Meer and Athrun have dinner, though Athrun is troubled, because Meer's "lie" reflects his own "lie" in his double life as "Alex Reno," agent of Orb. He does tell Meer that she's almost identical to the real Lacus in her performance she gave, and that totally makes Meer's day.

These interactions are very surprising when you first see them, and you're seeing a theme here about names and identities. Remember when Durandel talked about Bogey 1--"I wonder what it's real name is. If something's name is a lie, does that mean that thing is also a lie? Is that what it would mean, Alex, or should I say, Athrun?"

Is Shinn a Coordinator? I'm guessing so, since he's in ZAFT, though being a Coordinator isn't necessarily a prerequisite to be a MS pilot anymore

Well...Orb citizens included Coordinators and Naturals...

Destiny is definitely a much broader, "bigger picture" type series, with more of an ensemble cast and treating us to events from many different angles, from the MS pilots to the politicians behind the scenes to the average Joe on the street. I'm going to compare it to Legend of the Galactic Heroes again, in that it's as much about the events/war/plot, if not more, than any particular individual characters (save Athrun, who -seems- to be the main protagonist, but... doesn't quite).

This certainly makes it an attractive setup, yes, indeed! I like Gundam series that show the whole picture and shift around, spending time on different characters and organizations, and the ins and outs of them in one-on-one, even ragtag sessions, rather than being cooped up in a ship all day or being forced into being a team 24/7. Unfortunately, while this idea is sound, the ratio of character usage--and abuse--may prove problematic in time...The potential for greatness, and indeed, some execution of greatness, is definitely there, though. And it can be very, very fun when it's on the right track. (Even though I'm not a huge fan of the 25 episodes I've seen of Zeta, Amuro knew his place in that story. Oh, on that note, you didn't say anything about Athrun doing his best Quattro impression with the big shades and alias!)

PS: Someone mentioned Shinn and also Stella in the opening credits...they "met" in Episode 1, in an awkward moment involving Shinn's hands, and they also fought one another not long afterward in MS. And Stella wasn't too happy about not being able to destroy the Sword Impulse!

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Yeah, gotta agree on this point, Athrun should not be asking what he's supposed to be fighting for at this point. If he's spent two years by Cagalli's side, well, as Iza said, he found his answer back in SEED, this conflict is not that different. It's still Alliance versus ZAFT although I think ZAFT is in the right this go around.

Durandal. Yeah he talks a great game but as you said, he then has a fake Lacus going around telling people to support the Great Durandal. And I can't stand Meer. As far as I'm concerned, she was there for pure, unadulterated jiggling boobs fanservice, especially when she gets into her "new and improved" Lacus stage outfit. The show could have proceeded just fine without her there.

Spoiler

Here's a thought: What if instead of the supposed assassination of Lacus, Durandal had just kidnapped and brainwashed her? That would have given Kira a whole lot more of an incentive to do what he did in Destiny than just because he's the shining light of justice and peace.

Also, even though I pretty much agree with what Cagalli's dad did, I do scratch my head a bit at why he decided to be a martyr. Making sure the Alliance didn't disable the self-detonate?

Okay, I keep hearing stories and rumours about the behind-the-scenes infighting on Destiny. I wanna know the truth. Does anyone have the truth?

[Zeonista]

With Gundam SEED still fresh in my mind, I decided not to wait around and just dive into Destiny.

No need to wait two years, like we did!

They should make for far shorter posts (and be a lot easier for me to write up).

If you say so..... Running behind everyone, will have to catch up....

So far, I'm not sure what to think of Shinn. He's a capable pilot - it's nice to see this series start off with trained mobile suit pilots, rather than the old "whiz kid falls in the open cockpit with the keys in the ignition" trope. But beyond sense of loss, which is perfectly understandable, and his anger at Cagalli, which is equally understandable, even if obviously misplaced, we don't really know much about this kid after 5 episodes. Since he pilots the "star" Impulse Gundam, I would assume he's the main protagonist, and yet, the rest of the cast seem to get as much, if not more, screen time than he does. If he's the main character, he doesn't feel like one yet.

You have zeroed in on one of the main problems of the story. Shinn began the series as an angry young man with some actual background validation for being a starter Gundam pilot. He also had the potential to become a proper Gundam hero down the line. He could be the apprentice Gundam hero, learning from the more experienced Athrun and eventually graduating to full-blown hero status along with him at some point. At least, that's what I thought for a while, anyway. And yet, there was something in him that seemed off. He had enough unfocused rage to make Camille Viidan look like Quattro Bagina, and unlike a lot of the established Gundam heroes, he didn't fight to protect others, or end the war, or to stop the Bad Guys from winning. He wanted payback on somebody in return for his cute little sister getting wasted by a random shot. This was a flag for me, because the Japanese samurai tradition distinguishes between legally/morally sanctioned justice, and kill-'em-all revenge.

I've also noticed a propensity (did I spell that right?) for Athrun to be constantly offering suggestions to our cast of heroes on tactics to get them out of scrapes, or taking off in a MS to go save the day. It's certainly not a bad thing, per se, just wondering if his presence isn't crowding out the new characters and preventing them their moments to shine here at the beginning of the series.

I liked this part of the erly episode story lines. Athrun was the ZAFT pilots' senpai after a fashion, and he had some good lessons to pass along, both on and off the battlefield.

Cagalli is holding true to form, troubled by ZAFT's development of new mobile suits and their first post-war warship, the Minerva, at the PLANT Armory One. This is pretty consistent with the attitude she had about her father developing Orb's M1 Astrays in the 1st series and her desire to keep humanity from going down the road to war so soon again is commendable....However, ZAFT, under the leadership of their new Chairman, Gilbert Durandal, does strike me as being genuinely concerned only with rebuilding their forces for self-defense, not for starting another war. It makes perfect sense to me to at least maintain a defensive force. "Power is necessary because there will always be conflict," he tells Cagalli.

Cagalli and Chairman Durandal are both right, in their own ways. Durandal still wins by accepting Cagalli's point, and using it to support his own.

And he's voice by Suichi Ikeda, Char himself! How cool is that?

Way cool. Cool enough to make all of ZAFT's new MS spontaneously turn Zeon!

The Minerva has its own team of MS pilots, in addition to Shinn Asuka.

Yeah there's a lot of wink-wink type of stuff relater to Rey. More on that later.... Lunamaria was an early fan favorite, and quickly joined a lot of "SEED babe" lists. She was SEED's first actual from-the-introduction female MS pilot character....with dialog, anyway.

Just seems like a waste of time, keep the Impulse in one piece and send it out that way, guys!

Well, the production team got their money's worth out of that sequence, and then some! The launch/transformation shtick does prove useful to Shinn a few times, so it wasn't a complete waste of space.

That brings us to ZAFT's three other new Gundams, which are stolen by a trio of teenaged pilots, in one of the most surprising first episode Gundamjacks I've ever seen. It wouldn't be a first episode of a Gundam series unless an unauthorized person ended up in the cockpit of one.

Damn straight it wouldn't! I don't know why Arbiter wasn't impressed by the Gundamjack. After all, the three Gundams are stolen by an EA Extend team. That's right people, a Federation team pulled a GUndamjack!

So the three new (bad guy) units are the Chaos Gundam, Gaia Gundam and Abyss Gundam.

Note that there is an aerial specialist, water specialist, and ground specialist set. Guess ZAFT wasn't through with Earth-based combat yet? I half-expected them to be able to combine and form DanCOUGAR, but that never occurred.

Cagalli, however, seems like she's just a hapless passenger along for the ride, who occasionally has little disagreements with Chairman Durandal, or gets in an argument with Shinn. I hope she has a bigger part to play soon and isn't just "there."

Yeah, Athrun was badass, and even managed to make Shinn shut up and atake notice a couple of times. Cagalli was useless, which was annoying, since SEED had made her out to be someone who didn't mind walking the talk at all! Sure she's a big time politico, but that didn't stop her before! It became obvious she was holding back, and not because she wanted to do so.

That brings Neo Roanoke, the oh-look-another-Char-clone for this series. The bad: His helmet looks really goofy. And Gundam producers seem unable to make Char clones without the long pretty blonde hair anymore.

Standard Char Clone: (Fabio hair toss) I can't believe it's not Zeon!

Later on, we get our first impending colony drop, when forces operating ZAFT model MS's put some keypad "flare motor" doo-hickeys on the remains of the Junius 7 PLANT and knock it out of orbit, sending it plummeting towards Earth.

Ah yes, the obviously derivative story thread involving a bunch of Delaz Fleet wanna-bes staging a colony drop on the Atlantic Federation capital. *pause* So they want to play Zeon and nuke D.C. from orbit. Fine by me!

The Minerva is forced to break off its pursuit of the Girty Lue to assist other ZAFT forces, led by Yzak and Dearka show up to try to stop them but are driven off. Great to see those two are back! And hey, Yzak finally got rid of the scar.

Yzak actually changed his ways and put his past behind him, so no more scar. That put hm ahead of Athrun & Cagalli at this point in the story.

We also see that Blue Cosmos is alive and well, now led by another slimy snake-like man named Djibril. The leaders of Blue Cosmos have gathered to discuss the impending fall of Junius 7 and its destruction and how they can use the situation to their advantage and accelerate their anti-Coordinator agenda.

Just to rub Cagalli's nose in her own ideological shortcomings, bring on Haters, Inc again! Djibril is a worthy successor to Azrael, i.e. he is a real SOB.

I get the feeling, watching this group of men together, that they have a lot of wealth and power (which isn't surprising, considering they basically took over the Atlantic Federation side of the Earth Forces/Alliance leadership in SEED).

In anime, any gathering of wealthy, powerful older people is obviously up to no good. A gathering of wealthy, powerful young people, not so much. Maybe open a host club.

Djibril says he sent "Phantom Pain" to investigate the falling Junius 7. Who or what is Phantom Pain?

Phantom Pain is EA'a paramilitary black ops force, operating alongside but outside of OMNI ENforcer's chain of command. The three Gundamjackers are part of it. The SEED side stories have more to say about this shadowy organization.

Overall, for the first 5 episodes, I'm impressed and entertained, though not quite as much as I was with SEED. I think part of it is because I was expecting a new show very much in the same vein as SEED, and yet so far this series actually feels different. Not in a bad way, just different and a little unexpected.

Not a bad summary of the intro story arc. Hope you like watchiing the rest!

[AmuroNT1]

It was the Calamity the was shown making the fatal burst shot, so it was Orga Sabnak's reckless attacks that killed Shinn's family.

Not exactly. IIRC they show us the battle where the Asuka family twice, once it looks like Freedom fired the fatal shot and the other time it looks like Calamity. Either way, as was pointed out elsewhere in the topic it doesn't really matter who killed Shinn's family. For him, the point is that he's a very angry young man because, as he sees it, there's a lot of blame to go around for what happened. He blames Orb's leaders (like Uzumi and Cagalli) for violating their neutrality and allowing war into its borders, the defense forces for not being able to fight off the Alliance, and more specific figures like the Freedom for being the ones firing so recklessly in civilian territory.

It's kind of like how Batman's writers waver back and forth between whether his parents were killed by Joe Chill or some nameless goon. Several have said that it's better that the killer be nameless, since that way it serves as a symbol of the kind of random, pointless crime that he dedicates himself to fighting, while giving the killer an identity makes him focus on a single target for revenge. They kind of teased this in Batman Begins, where he fully intended to shoot Chill, but got robbed of the chance and was left with nothing but his anger and no outlet, which (combined with words from those around him) lead him to refocus on all criminals, not just the ones who wronged him.

[Zeonista]

Now to catch up after some time away...

I'm back, with my review and comments for Episodes 6 thru 10. As I indicated in my post from last night, I was really excited by these episodes, and I have a lot to talk about. The series is really diving into a good story now, and more character/drama stuff, beyond the really cool action the first 5 episodes start off on a bang with. And I apologize in advance, I said I'd try to keep my posts on Destiny shorter than those from SEED, but... for these particular episodes, I just can't help myself.

Gotta be true to yourself, man.

So the Minerva crew and Yzak's team are battling the GINN-driving forces that have started Junius 7 on its deadly drop to Earth, the enemy hanging around to try to prevent our heroes from using Meteor Breakers to break up the ruins of the PLANT. When all is said and done, it appears (at least on the surface) that it's a group of rebel/former ZAFT soldiers who started this, people still loyal to the late Patrick Zala and his anti-Natural, genocidal warmongering, and burning for revenge for, well... not "losing" the war, but losing the war's objectives because of the truce.

Some more unfinished business from the Bloody Valentine War, proving that starting wars can be easy, while stoppoing them can be very difficult! It's a great battle, one of GSD's best one following the Gundamjack itself. The rebel force's GiNN Custom MS are tough, and look cool too. Yzak's force has real trouble with them, despite having the new ZAKU types.

So our ZAFT heroes manage to break up Junius 7 into smaller pieces, which fall to Earth and don't cause the end of Life As We Know It... but it does cause widespread devastation, nonetheless.

Hat tip here to Operation British in MSG. The colony used in that drop split into several pieces. The largest turned Sydney into Sidney Bay, but others landed in the Pacific Ocean and caused a lot of devastation elsewhere. The Junius Seven fragments fall equally on land and water, making the N-Jammer activation look like a nuisance by comparison.

The PLANTs, under Durandel's leadership, sends aid to Earth to help those affected, while at the same time, trying to de-fuse a potentially violent situation. But it's already too late. The situation between the Earth Alliance and the PLANTs has been tenuous at best, a powderkeg waiting to be re-ignited because the bloody war is only 2 years past and the wounds are still very fresh. And these disgruntled ZAFT jokers just lit the powderkeg's fuse.

Chairman Durandel does the proper diplomatic action, but the random destruction really trashes PLANT on the PR front. And didn't you find the Zala loyalists' incident to be particularly convenient in its timing?

I have to point out the scenes of the Junius 7 fragments hitting Earth, and the devastation caused - very powerful and horrifying and chilling.

I agree with reeoyuy, Stargazer #1 really showcases the devastation from up close. The impact of the debris and its aftermath really ram home the shocked sadness and disappointment of the Minerva and VIPs. They flubbed their chance to be Big Damn Heroes, and a lot of people paid for it. It's a defeat, and they all know it.

And during this we get our first peeks at Kira Yamato and Lacus Clyne, along with Reverend Malchio and the orphan kids at his church/orphanage on that island from SEED and After Phase. Glad to see they're still trying to enjoy a peaceful, quiet life. Well, until it started raining Junius 7 pieces...

Kira took a break from life for a while, to recover from that emotional and spiritual drubbing he got at the end of SEED. Lacus also took a break to help him with it, and play up to that nurturing persona that the Japanese find so appealing. So far it has been a success. Kira is feeling much better now!

Lacus: "A storm is on its way." Kira: "Yeah. I know." *shudders again*

Hat tip here to Zeta Gundam episode 5, where Amuro sees the AEUG cruiser explode, and realizes that war has come to the Earth Sphere again.

The Minerva then makes its way to Orb's Onogoro Island for repairs, and to drop off their passengers, Orb Chief Representative Cagalli Yula Ahhta and her bodyguard Alex Dino - oops, I mean, Athrun Zala. The Minerva MS pilots (well, mostly Lunamaria Hawke) know who he really is and consider him a hero for what he did at the Battle of Jachin Due.

Quattro Bagina: I'm not char Aznable.
Alex Dino: I'm not Athrun Zala.
Gundam viewers: Aw come on, who are you guys fooling?

Yzak seemed pretty angry at learning Athrun was there, when they were trying to stop Junius 7's fall. Did Yzak and Athrun have some personal falling out as well? I'm wondering what's happened between then. I get the impression that Athrun is pretty much a man without a home, even though he's at Cagalli's side.

Yzak had a one-sided rivalry with Athrun at the academy, and it has persisted ever since. Athrun can unintentionally rub Yzak the wrong way, so there is a certain reaction. You could well say that at this point in the story Athrun doesn't really have a place to call home. I wouldn't call him an outlaw from ZAFT, though. It's more like he's avoiding unhappy memories by not returning. And it helps that looking after Cagalli keeps him from dwelling on those memories, too.

Speaking of Prime Minister Seiran... man, what a sleazeball. How did this guy end up being Prime Minister?

Pretty much the usual way. Doing favors, collecting favors, selling snake oil to voters while bringing home the bacon, outliving other leaders of higher moral standing....

And Cagalli's under -so- much pressure, trying to do what's right and hold off an impending disaster. She's a strong girl, but I can already see the cracks forming in her resolve...

Said cracks soon widening into arroyos due to the tendency of the less enlightened members of the Council undercutteing her at every turn for their own interests. Cagalli, alas, does not have the experience or confidence yet to tell those clowns to shut up and do it right.

The Earth Alliance (probably via Phantom Pain/the Girty Lue) releases photos of ZAFT mobile suits at Junius 7 during its fall - thus fueling the fires of anti-Coordinator/anti-PLANT hate on Earth. Blue Cosmos has just been handed their best recruiting tool in years. The Alliance makes an unrealistic list of demands of the PLANT government: "arrest the terrorists and hand them over" or face military invasion, disband your government and allow the Alliance to put "observers" in the new government, and disband your military. Gee, sure sounds like modern day, post-9/11 events... *tries to steer clear of political talk*

The director Fukuda gave himself a pat on the back in interviews for making oblique references/commentary to then-contemporary world events in GSD. So I forgive you for calling attention to them when they occur. That being said, the Junius 7 drop begins to look terribly convenient as causus belli for the EAF. Once again, the extremists who refused to understand and accept the Three Ships Alliance escalate events to the point of no return.

Djibril and President Whoever-He-Is talk about their long-term plans... as part of a group we've never heard of, Logos. (Word of God, huh? Hmm....)

Yeah, those clowns do have a high opinion of themselves.

Yep, Logos strikes me as a deep, high-level globalist elitist scumbag secret society, a la the Illuminati or Bilderberger Group or Bohemian Club, etc., pulling the strings of their political and corporate and media puppets, to consolidate their power and create their "new world order."

Since Japan has been more or less run by old boys' club style groups since the time of the Shoguns, conspiracy theories have a certain authenticity to the Japanese people. (YMMV) Blue Cosmos is the PR and "direct action" political faction used by Logos to further their agenda. The high public profile of Blue Cosmos keeps public attention focused on them. This lets Logos operate from cover, since apparently there are no news reporters who can do a "follow the money" or "follow the guns" type of investigation.

So Athrun decides to go to the PLANTs, being worried about their position on this whole mess and those like the ex-ZAFT guys who dropped Junius 7, people who were swayed by his late father, Patrick Zala. And as he leaves and says goodbye to Cagalli, he gives her an engagement ring! WOO-HOO!!! That's soooooo sweet! And yet... did he actually ask her to marry him? Or is it just a ring? He just wordlessly puts it on her ring finger, and she chews him out for not doing right. But they instantly kiss and make up. These two are such a great couple.

As will be seen, this was not the best thing for Athrun to do. Instead of worrying about something to fight against, he should be finding something to fight for. Namely, the cute, troubled princess he just gifted with a ring and left to wait for him. Or was that too easy a decision to make? In a sense, Athrun's decision is like that facing ZAFT right now. They are trying to see whom they should fight, instead of playing a tight defense while trying to discern their enemy's strategy.

He's in so much pain and grief and full of anger. It's finally in these episodes that I'm truly starting to feel for Shinn, and realize that, like Athrun, he's a very lost young man right now. Lost for different reasons that Athrun, but very lost indeed... Shinn makes a comment about someone coming along and wiping out the flowers, too, someday. It's a cold comment, full of pain and cynicism and probably even a touch of nihilism... and I can understand it, though it takes Kira and Lacus by surprise.

And what I said about Athrun goes double for Shinn. Caught up in the Junius 7 fallout, he is looping his memories of his sister again, and looking for someone to blame, and fight. In that sense, you are correct in presuming his POV opposition to Kira and Lacus, which raised another flag for me. Kira, Lacus, Athrun, and Cagalli were the heroes of SEED for bringing the Bloody Valentine War to a halt, and preventing hatred from overcoming reason (and self-preservation instinct) in the process of ending said war. Then Shinn comes along and disses Cagalli for Orb not stopping the EA and living the lie of peace, and questions Athrun for not balancing the score for his comrades and father, and tells Kira to his face that peace means nothing compared to hatred and destruction. I was left wondering if Shinn really had it in him to be the next Gundam hero in a SEED anme.

And yet... I really, really want Durandel to be a good guy. I seriously think he is. And I really, really hope he doesn't end up going down the same road as Patrick Zala. However, whereas Zala was a military man (and thus already of the mindset that violence is a solution to any problem), Durandel seems to be cut from entirely different - and quite civilized - cloth.

Yeah, Durandel is one smooth dude. As far as Gundam politicians go, he was a pleasant surprise! Naturally he was so against type that he made me a little suspicious. But he knew how to motivate people, and say the right thing to get the best results. I wanted him to do a crossover and give a motivational speaking lecture for Neo Zeon.

And now... we learn the truth of the Lacus Clyne doppelganger at the PLANTs, who comes on a "pirated" broadcast throughout the PLANTs. She asks for calm and cool heads, for the chance for diplomacy and a peaceful solution. Oh, and to support Durandel and the Council as they work on the people's behalf. And yep, Durandel admits it to Athrun - the doppelganger is a government PR actress. Athrun is shocked and troubled by this... and frankly, so am I.

Dammit, and I was starting to like the guy too... Another flag raised, as Durandel frankly admits he is using an imposter to cash in on Lacus's reputation. If he really is doing the right thing, then why not get the "real thing" in terms of Lacus Clyne? BTW your reference to EVE from Megazone 23 is a good one, get back to us on that later on in the anime.

Durandel seems to be putting a lot of faith in Athrun with this.

Funny you should say that, seeing what comes later in the story.

I like Meer. She's cute and fun, and doesn't strike me as ditzy and air-headed as Lacus seemed to be when we first met her in SEED. Meer seems sincere in her desire to do the right thing by being a "replacement Lacus," believing in both Lacus' and Durandel's desire for peace. I can tell there's some sadness in her, knowing she's "living a lie" and that this gig is probably temporary, but she seems very happy to do it. I wonder how Lacus will react when she learns of Meer, however. And I'm hoping there's more to Meer that we get to see in the future. I'm intrigued by her.

Even I, Lacus fan and all, couldn't bring myself to dislike Meer, despite her knowing representation of fraud, and possible misrepresentation as well. Sort of like Christina Aguilera pretending to be Dusty Springfield. Meer is doing her best, as the Japanese would say, and helping the nice Chairman, and living the idol singer's dream... Speaking of dreams, she knows about Lacus Clyne's dreamy fiance too!

I've figured out a little more why I like the ZAKU Warrior, beyond it being a great looking reimagining/recycled Zaku design: it reminds me a lot of the Geara Doga, one of my other fave Zeon-ish grunt MS types.

Come to think of it, the ZAKU types are more like Geara Dogas than the good ol' MS-06. They're still cool, though.

When it comes to being a MS pilot, Athrun's still got it. And he is a -scary- good shot with a pistol!

Shinn gets a lesson here in calling out aces on their performance. The lesson doesn't sink in, though. Shinn has a disturbing tendency to miss these teachable moments. Maybe it's because ZAFT doesn't allow the Brightslap as a mnemonic device for wanna-be Gundam heroes?

Is Shinn a Coordinator? I'm guessing so, since he's in ZAFT, though being a Coordinator isn't necessarily a prerequisite to be a MS pilot anymore.

Yes, Shinn is a Coordinator. It was established in SEED and the Astray stories that Orb tolerates Coordinators, and their society has no prejudice towards Coordinators as a group.

Does ZAFT still control Carpentaria on Earth?

Yes, ZAFT retained their base there. You will see it before too long.

[Jaynz]

Also, even though I pretty much agree with what Cagalli's dad did, I do scratch my head a bit at why he decided to be a martyr. Making sure the Alliance didn't disable the self-detonate?

He's taking responsibility for Orb's involvement in the war, and the deaths that it caused. Certainly, it wasn't hit fault really, but that's the type of command material he was. To be fair, once he detonated the rail, it's pretty clear that Azreal would have executed him anyway.

Okay, I keep hearing stories and rumors about the behind-the-scenes infighting on Destiny. I wanna know the truth. Does anyone have the truth?

I don't have the whole story, but I've seen a few interviews that mention the fighting obliquely. Fukuda apparently made a lot of enemies through the course of the show, particularly with the writers, due to his preferential treatment policies. SEED suffered a bit from this (a few late episodes, a rushed ending), but it really apparently blew apart in Desinty right near the middle. It's not really a part of Japanese culture to 'dish' about your work, though, so it's unlikely we'll ever see the entire truth of what exactly went on.

[Jaynz]

IIRC they show us the battle where the Asuka family twice, once it looks like Freedom fired the fatal shot and the other time it looks like Calamity.

I had to check it again to make sure, but it was indeed the Calamity. Besides, at this point, it would grossly out of character for Kira to have random shots heading into the city as he was in his 'try not to kill anyone' mode at the time. Shin also specifically flashes back to the Calamity a few times in the shorter 'cuts' with no mention of the Freedom in those shots.

Spoiler

You'll also notice that revenge actually isn't part of Shin's motivation for going after the Freedom. You would think, given Shin's personality, that if he thought the Freedom WAS the 'killer Gundam', that would be driven home a lot more.

Either way, as was pointed out elsewhere in the topic it doesn't really matter who killed Shinn's family. For him, the point is that he's a very angry young man because, as he sees it, there's a lot of blame to go around for what happened.

He's angry at the world and wants to give the world some payback. ZAFT, of course, was the only entity not actually at that battle of Orb, and it accepts coordinators... so it made some sense for Shinn to head up there.

[DuelGundam2099]

Wow, even deeper conspiracies abound... this is getting GOOD!

This was pretty much my reaction after every few episodes when I rented the series from Netflix, this series really knew how to keep it's suspense (probably why I didn't mind the clips shows unlike everyone else).

Just seems like a waste of time, keep the Impulse in one piece and send it out that way, guys!

The Impulse is the Ultraman Dyna of gundams, you can't keep it in one place or in one form.

Lunamaria was an early fan favorite, and quickly joined a lot of "SEED babe" lists. She was SEED's first actual from-the-introduction female MS pilot character....with dialog, anyway.

Strange how she was also voiced by an actual idol singer and yet she didn't get a song of her own. Oh well, she somehow manages to be my favorite female anime character. *dodges bricks*

Cagalli, alas, does not have the experience or confidence yet to tell those clowns to shut up and do it right.

Which makes me wonder why people that ended up hating her do. It was obvious from SEED that she was a rebellious child who would have to take on massive political responsibilities somewhere down the line and when it did happen she wasn't ready for it. At least she finally gets over all of this near the end of the series.

and his anger at Cagalli, which is equally understandable, even if obviously misplaced,

This is my main problem with Shin, he never let it the hell go with Cagalli. Never. I could tolerate a lot of rather strange things that happened at the end of the series and Finale Phase (which you'll see later), the lack of so much as a simple "I'm sorry" just my me shake my head. I probably wouldn't have minded it if

Spoiler

Cagalli actually got revenge on Shin during the battle with him in the Akatsuki Gundam, but that never happens.

[Antares]

Burke said:

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
'Boffing.' That sounds like a British phrase perhaps?

It could be, I really don't know. I heard it used once in Babylon 5 and loved it, it's stuck with me ever since. I can't recall ever seeing/hearing it anywhere else, though.

*nods sagely* Indeed, that is what Ivanova said he should've done to Marcus, claiming that was what he called it, before the poor thing went and gave his life for her. 2nd to last episode of season 4, "Rising Star". What? Why are you looking at me like that?

Burke said:

[At Junius 7 drop] But Yzak seemed pretty angry at learning Athrun was there, when they were trying to stop Junius 7's fall. Did Yzak and Athrun have some personal falling out as well? I'm wondering what's happened between then.

I thought Yzak was in part being his usual aggressively shouty self, and in part irritated at Athrun for leaving ZAFT behind. Maybe Yzak wanted him to come back, if for no other reason than to prove himself better than the no-good-Zala with his fancy Gundams. This is also something that the Character Theater spoofs poke fun at.

it reminded me of one of my big anime favorites, Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Hooray for big space battles with a classical music soundtrack!

OK, you're not my lost internet brother, you're my clone! But, sadly, what Chris said a bit later:

I think by the time you finish this series you'll realize that you insulted Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

is right on the money. I will wait until you finish with Destiny before you issue the formal apology.

Finally, on Athrun's second-guessing his reasons to fight:
At first he seems (like so many others) utterly spineless, but on my second viewing I got the impression (i.e. pretended) that he couldn't really believe another war was coming. Last time around so many people died, and Athrun kind of refuses to believe things could deteriorate again to that state. What they did with the TSA in Seed was supposed to be something exceptional, something that they were forced to do when utter oblivion was the only alternative. Athrun witnessed his own father go mad and die at the height of his madness. Surely that couldn't happen again; surely he wouldn't have to pick up the sword again? To pick it up too soon he would only end up aggravating the situation; violence only begets more violence.
But yeah, the longer he does that, the less sympathetic he becomes. Like with Seed, his dilemmas are the most intriguing and convincing, but at the same he faffs about them for far too long.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Cagalli, alas, does not have the experience or confidence yet to tell those clowns to shut up and do it right.

Which makes me wonder why people that ended up hating her do. It was obvious from SEED that she was a rebellious child who would have to take on massive political responsibilities somewhere down the line and when it did happen she wasn't ready for it. At least she finally gets over all of this near the end of the series.

Ah man, Cagalli really confuses me in this series. In SEED she was like the Princess Leia of Gundam. Here? I just don't know.

Spoiler

Of course the stories about the writer, Chiaki Morosawa, and Cagalli's VA Naomi Shindo getting into fights and Morosawa basically writing off Cagalli could be true and a part of the problem

I have two theories and one of them might just be my wishful thinking.
A. Cagalli doesn't seem to be a very good leader in Orb because deep in her heart of hearts, she doesn't really want to be the Princess. This could possibly explain why she ran off and joined the Desert Dawn (which is never explained in SEED) and why she's so eager to fight alongside her friends. She wants to be "one of the guys" but she has to deal with the responsibility that she's unfortunately and/or fortunately dealt with. Spineless or not, I'd rather have Cagalli be my leader than the Seirans.
B. She really was unprepared to deal with the ramifications of suddenly becoming Orb's leader, but I'm disinclined to believe this one. Why? I would think that, given that she's the Princess, she would be groomed to be the leader or a leader. Would probably explain why she hates to dress up and be the "pretty princess," if she's had to deal with that her whole life. Plus she's had two years, give or take, to adjust to the role.

Of course there's also Chris's theory that spending two years hanging around Kira allowed the worse parts of his personality to rub off on her!
And a question i forgot to ask back in the SEED thread. Why IS Cagalli a Princess? Orb doesn't have a king, so this title doesn't make sense. Is she the only one? If so, why?

[Jaynz]

Which makes me wonder why people that ended up hating her do. It was obvious from SEED that she was a rebellious child who would have to take on massive political responsibilities somewhere down the line and when it did happen she wasn't ready for it.

Unfortunately, we already know too well what happened with Cagali...

Spoiler

It's really hard to understand Cagali's twice-over personality changes in SEED Destiny, and it's pretty clear that this comes down to Morosawa's discussed pettiness. Morosawa handled the first half of Destiny, where Cagali is pretty much treated like crap. The Cagali we know and love shows up again for the second half, at least... largely due to Murosawa's influence being culled from the series. This also explains why Athrun seems to 'romantically waver' for a short time before reconciling with Cagali.

Naomi Shindo had said she wouldn't work with Morosawa again. This, for better or worse, will no longer be a problem. It remains to be seen if she'll work with Fukuda, or even if Fukuda will get to work on Gundam again. Despite SEED's overall success for Bandai and Sunrise, it really does look like a lot of bridges were burned - culminating in the outright declared cancellation of the remaining SEED projects. This is a very unusual move for Japanese companies to make such a declaration.

Of course there's also Chris's theory that spending two years hanging around Kira allowed the worse parts of his personality to rub off on her!

"Sure, he cried too much, and... oh, DAMMIT!"

And a question i forgot to ask back in the SEED thread. Why IS Cagalli a Princess? Orb doesn't have a king, so this title doesn't make sense. Is she the only one? If so, why?

Uzumi holds (or held, rather) the elected position of Prime Minister. Apparently he also had the noble title equivalent of 'duke' or 'lord' of one of Orb's holdings (hence the discussion of rival families). This would actually make Cagalli a 'Lady' rather than a 'Princess', but Japan's never been too good about what 'Lady' really meant. In true Disney fashion, all girls who stand to inherit title are 'princesses'.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

The PLANTs, under Durandel's leadership, sends aid to Earth to help those affected, while at the same time, trying to de-fuse a potentially violent situation. But it's already too late.

I would note that sending military forces into another nation's territory without permission is called an invasion. I seriously doubt that any of the Earth Alliance nations approved ZAFT troops on their soil so soon after ZAFT troops dropped a colony on them, so I would argue that Durandal sending ZAFT in for "disaster relief" did far more harm than good -- and that Durandal must have known that it would..

The Alliance makes an unrealistic list of demands of the PLANT government: "arrest the terrorists and hand them over" or face military invasion, disband your government and allow the Alliance to put "observers" in the new government, and disband your military.

One wonders why this is considered unreasonable. Tens of millions of people were killed by ZAFT pilots in ZAFT mobile suits, and ZAFT claims that they were terrorists acting without government sanction. The Earth Alliance demands that ZAFT hand over these supposed terrorists, or else the Alliance will be forced to assume that ZAFT is lying and the entire thing was a ZAFT operation. The threats of invasion and occupation may be harsh, but ZAFT soldiers just committed an act of genocide against the Earth Alliance. The burden of proof is on ZAFT to show that they had no part in it, and if they won't/can't, then the Earth Alliance has to assume that it was a prelude to a second round of fighting.

[darkhunger]

Which makes me wonder why people that ended up hating her do. It was obvious from SEED that she was a rebellious child who would have to take on massive political responsibilities somewhere down the line and when it did happen she wasn't ready for it.

Unfortunately, we already know too well what happened with Cagali...

Spoiler

It's really hard to understand Cagali's twice-over personality changes in SEED Destiny, and it's pretty clear that this comes down to Morosawa's discussed pettiness. Morosawa handled the first half of Destiny, where Cagali is pretty much treated like crap. The Cagali we know and love shows up again for the second half, at least... largely due to Murosawa's influence being culled from the series. This also explains why Athrun seems to 'romantically waver' for a short time before reconciling with Cagali.

Naomi Shindo had said she wouldn't work with Morosawa again. This, for better or worse, will no longer be a problem. It remains to be seen if she'll work with Fukuda, or even if Fukuda will get to work on Gundam again. Despite SEED's overall success for Bandai and Sunrise, it really does look like a lot of bridges were burned - culminating in the outright declared cancellation of the remaining SEED projects. This is a very unusual move for Japanese companies to make such a declaration.

Any of this actually based on facts and not rumors posted on 4chan?

Morosawa was the main writer, but the writing staff was 7 people, many of them taking turns writing the scripts for each episode. She did as much work in the beginning of the series as the end, if the credits tell the truth. And quite frankly Cagalli's personality is consistent, but evolving, no matter who wrote the script for the episode.

The fact is, Cagalli had always been an impulsive character who didn't think hard about things (basically she's a less angrier version of Shinn), and was quite the innocent kid. So once thrusted onto the spotlight she wasn't able to handle the political maneuvering. And obviously the situation with Shinn also made her doubt things and hurt her self-confidence as well. Something like this can happen to anybody.

One thing I've always enjoy about the CE characters is that they are very natural in a way - their personalities aren't just caricatures that are predictable and always act a certain way just because their personality dictates them to. And I think that's the main problem here. People expect her to behave like she always had, and not realizing how the situation she has been placed in, and the things that she has experienced have affected her.

[Jaynz]

Morosawa was the main writer, but the writing staff was 7 people, many of them taking turns writing the scripts for each episode. She did as much work in the beginning of the series as the end, if the credits tell the truth. And quite frankly Cagalli's personality is consistent, but evolving, no matter who wrote the script for the episode.

I can only go on what the interviews with various staff members have said. As I said, it's very unusual for employees to 'dish' on co-workers, even in the worst of times, in Japan. Yet, despite this, there were some non-veiled comments from staff members which were unpleasant about Morosawa. Morosawa herself had a few choice words for her staff in a very public interview which cost her the last of the Japanese fan-base's goodwill.

Something like this can happen to anybody.

Spoiler

It's more that it's random, she's written out, written back in, then out again, etc. It's clear that what happens to Cagali isn't a natural character development, but a conflict with writers on how to handle her - whatever the specific reason. I know many fans will try to rationalize it, but it really is just a consequence of Destiny's behind the scenes problems, and pointedly not deliberate 'depth of character' for her.

[darkhunger]

I can only go on what the interviews with various staff members have said. As I said, it's very unusual for employees to 'dish' on co-workers, even in the worst of times, in Japan. Yet, despite this, there were some non-veiled comments from staff members which were unpleasant about Morosawa. Morosawa herself had a few choice words for her staff in a very public interview which cost her the last of the Japanese fan-base's goodwill.

Can you explain what those "interviews" are then? I've followed the "interview" scene for this show basically since 2004 and I have to say there hasn't been interviews I've seen that even remotely suggests anything you've said. I have read plenty of unsubstantiated claims about Morosawa in forums like this one though (my favorite is how she supposedly got brain cancer leading her to be terrible at writing Destiny's story). Yes, I am aware of the blogpost by Kabashima regarding Morosawa and her late scripts, and I am aware of Morosawa's controversial post-release interview. Neither of them say anything of the things that you are accusing her of doing.

[ShadowCell]

as far as i know there's never been any word on what illness it was that sent Morosawa to the hospital and put the kibosh on the SEED movie, and either way the whole "brain cancer" thing always struck me as in impressively poor taste.

[Kenji]

Why IS Cagalli a Princess? Orb doesn't have a king, so this title doesn't make sense. Is she the only one? If so, why?

I suspect for the same reason why Princess Celestia isn't "Queen," "God-Empress," or "Muad'Dib." Some bean-counters got it in their heads that "Princess" will more easily attract the female demographic (for all I know, they could be right, but it smacks too much of formula for my taste).

[Jaynz]

Unfortunately, I don't have direct links to the articles or the interview anymore. They made the 'circuit' back when SEED Destiny was first released. There was definitely some animosity and issues with late episodes, etc. Fans have indeed exaggerated this, particularly after the television interview which, as I said, undermined the last of the good will in her direction.

as far as i know there's never been any word on what illness it was that sent Morosawa to the hospital and put the kibosh on the SEED movie, and either way the whole "brain cancer" thing always struck me as in impressively poor taste.

She was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2006, I believe. The cancellation of the SEED movie and subsequent series has been cited for this, but it seems more than a little unlikely at this point that that was the reason.

But, enough of that. We know that SEED Destiny was plagued with production problems. Let's see what Burke's take on the final product is, however.