Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

[padre]

The Amestris military under Fuhrer Roy Mustang?

Seriously, there's a fan comic somewhere where Meyrin asks about the skirt, Luna says it's no big deal and she wears what feels good, and Mustang appears out of nowhere to praise her as an ideal soldier (before Hawkeye drags him off by the collar). Sadly, I can't find it anymore...

http://padre.nuckinfutz.org/Random/1106607684822.jpg

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Hold on, let me get this straight. Your gripe is a uniform miniskirt, but not why any military in their right mind would allow untested 16-year-olds elite status to pilot giant war robots just because they wear a red uniform they got in school?

Well there is THAT too.

Ultimately I think it's the Star Trek-equivalent of the George Lucas Rule of No Bras in Space: Starfleet women's uniforms must be as flattering as possible. (Not so much by the late 24th Century though)

As far as Burke's last batch of episodes--
I know I keep going on about Cagalli but she was one of my absolute favorite characters from SEED so seeing her like this is really annoying. Being new at the political leader game? Okay, I can accept her making a few mistakes but not because her spine seems to have been removed by one of the Mortal Kombat characters. I really cannot get how she managed to let Yuna talk her into a freakin' wedding!!! (Quick note: Isn't Yuna a girl's name in Japanese?) This makes very little sense; must be another Japanese culture thing again. The only way I can work it out is that the Seiran's are in the Alliance's pocket and Uma wanted his son to marry Cagalli so they could control the leader of Orb. Great plan... except the Cagalli from SEED probably would have blown them off! But this isn't that Cagalli sadly.
As for the wedding, not only because we had a "Yuna" present, but the whole thing screamed "Final Fantasy X" to me. Instead of Tidus swooping to rescue Yuna (the female), we have Freedom and Kira the Magnificent doing the swooping to save his sister from Yuna (the male?). It would have been better if Yuna wasn't such a milquetoast and if Cagalli had actually been threatened into the setup, not caving in for some odd reason. And as I said earlier, it is not a good sign that a harem is forming around Athrun. You'll see.

Hmm, that's a good one-word summary of Meer, Zeonista, Stripperific.

A point to be raised: Where is Kira's dad? We actually see him interacting with his mom this time, but... no dad...

Shinn actually makes a point with his RAGE. What Cagalli has allowed is going to be bad, because Orb will end up getting attacked by someone.

Spoiler

And surely as Mordin Solus is a scientist Salarian, they DO get attacked by ZAFT and I can't feel too sorry for Cagalli because it IS partly her fault for being weak.

The Impulse is still low-rent Strike, but the Dueterion Beam is a nifty little widget.

The assassination scene. How about this? Instead of annoying Meer, have these mysterious ZAFT commandos kidnap Lacus and take her to PLANT?

Spoiler

I don't think it's ever actually said, but these guys were obviously there on orders from Durandal, if he had the real, brainwashed Lacus as his puppet, that'd give Kira a lot more motivation.

You know what the crew of the Archangel should have done? Instead of being Celestial Being Lite, they should have done what Ozma, Cathy and the crew of the Macross Quarter did. Go investigate behind the scenes and then

Spoiler

show up for a Big Damn Heroes moment and reveal to the crew of the Minerva, "Hey! This is what's going on!"

In fact Athrun, seeing as how he's all FAITH and that,

Spoiler

he should have gone to find the Archangel and the girl he supposedly loves, and helped them investigate, you know, instead of being recycled.

And I don't remember Roy Mustang's skirt fetish but it's been a long while since I've seen FMA. And is it just me, or does Luna-chan have a more gravity-defying cowlick than Superman?

[AmuroNT1]

Mustang's deal was a joke from an episode of the original FMA where he declares that when he leads the military, all female officers will have to wear tiny miniskirts; this became a meme partly because it's an awesome idea and partly because of Travis Willingham's delivery.

And yeah, Luna's hair is what Japanese fans call "ahoge", roughly meaning "idiot hair" since it tends to be found on airheaded or ditzy characters.

[DuelGundam2099]

And yeah, Luna's hair is what Japanese fans call "ahoge", roughly meaning "idiot hair" since it tends to be found on airheaded or ditzy characters.

Strange, Luna doesn't come off as ditzy.

[harotype]

And I'm back with my review of Episodes 11 thru 15!
*snip*
I like the mix so far, here's hoping it continues to entertain.

Luna's hair is what Japanese fans call "ahoge", roughly meaning "idiot hair" since it tends to be found on airheaded or ditzy characters.

....Luna's hair is also a reference to Char, since her Red ZAKU has no commander antenna. They just stuck it on her head, permanently. ....And if Luna doesn't come off as 'ditzy', well, give her some more time around Ath..."Zala-taichou".

I kinda like the Minerva's XO, Arthur. He's competent but young, and seems almost on the verge of panic sometimes. He's rather amusing. However, he does seem troubled when he finds out that Athrun and Talia are now members of FAITH. I wonder why?

You noticed Aasaa...uh, Arthur!! I'm delighted, since he happens to be one of my All-Time Faves. He's more than just extremely amusing; he also suffers from "Cassandra Syndrome", as best I can put it. Pay attention to what comes out of his mouth when he *isn't* stressed or startled... it might be worth a reference, later.

Oh, and did you notice Talia-kanchou making sure that he had no chance to think Murrue Rami-Whoever was hot? (You may think Ramius is All That; I bow to Talia's Awesome Powers.)

As far as Athrun, Talia and FAITH, it's simple; Arthur hasn't liked Athrun since he started opening his mouth and giving advice to Talia-kanchou that got considered and executed and basically undermining his whole position as Second-in-Command/The Guy Talia Is *Supposed* to Be Talking To. He likes him even less now that it's been formalized.
...and all those glares he was giving off may have just been his first prophecy, is all I'll say.

I thought Shinn was assigned the Impulse because good ol' Charman Gilly analyzed his DNA for it, no?

[Black Knight]

Burke, remember, later, that Durandal said he'd deploy military forces for "self-defense purposes only" (in the fansubs, this was generally translated as "for aggressive self-defense"; I wonder at the difference in implication between the two).

For myself, one of the best parts of this period of the show was actually the ZAFT Defense Chairman & some of his senior military people talking about the expected course of the new war, how there'd be some fighting and then a political settlement. This seems to indicate that the people in high command of ZAFT didn't want another war...but someone authorized the development of new Land, Sea, Air, and Space-use Gundams...

And isn't it convenient that the Supreme Chairman has a "stripperific" faux-Lacus waiting in the wings for just such an emergency? Astonishing foresight, that. And is it a coincidence that there's a Coordinator assassination team sent out after Lacus just after the fake Lacus is revealed to the PLANTs? These are the things I wondered when watching the show as it aired originally.

Durandal, over time, began to remind me of a certain politician from LoGH. And it was this disc that really began to feed that impression in me.

harotype:

Yes, I believe it's revealed later that Durandal knew about Shinn's SEED-mode, and that that is why he assigned Shinn to Impulse rather than Rey.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Oh, and did you notice Talia-kanchou making sure that he had no chance to think Murrue Rami-Whoever was hot? (You may think Ramius is All That; I bow to Talia's Awesome Powers.)

And here I thought she only had eyes for Gil, no?

[Burke Rukes]

I'm back, with my review and comments for Episodes 16 thru 20!

In a surprising bold move, the Earth Alliance military is building a new base very close to ZAFT's Carpentaria base. They're also using civilian slave labor. Frightening things like this just further go to show that, in this series, ZAFT is clearly the good guys (so far that we see) and the Alliance is very much the bad guys. Contrast that with later in these episodes when Meer Campbell arrives at another Earthside ZAFT base, Diocuia. Whereas the under construction Alliance base had fences to keep the civilians -in- and working on their base, the ZAFT Diocuia base has a fence to keep civilians -out- - though they're certainly welcome to hang out and see the "Lacus" concert.

So Neo Roanoke launches an attack on the Minerva and its escort submarine when they leave Carpentaria, leading the attack in his custom-colored Windham flight-equipped MS. Auel and Sting tag along in the Abyss Gundam and Chaos Gundam, giving us our first glimpse of the Abyss in its intended element as an aquatic MS/MA unit, and it does pretty well - it's scary fast underwater, giving Lunamaria and Rey a hard time in their ZAKUs. Shinn in the Impulse Gundam tackles Neo's Windham, in a good, crazy aerial shoot-em-up dogfight. Stella in her Gaia Gundam was ordered to stay behind, but when she sees Neo having some trouble with the Impulse, she takes off to help him. Shinn and Stella face each other down again - looks like they still have some unfinished business from their first fight way back in Episode 1.

During this fight, Shinn discovers the Alliance base, and the civilian slave laborers. Some of the civilians try to make an escape during the confusion, but are ruthlessly gunned down by the Alliance troops. Shinn goes nuts with righteous anger, and frankly I can't blame him - he may be a hurting, angry animal in some parts of his personality, but the one thing he won't abide by is civilians being used and harm in other peoples' conflicts. He kills lots of soldiers and their equipment, and tears up the fences freeing the civilians. Go Shinn! He's a pretty darned impressive MS pilot and has done some very cool stuff, but this is the first time in this series that I truly feel like he's been actually "heroic."

After the battle, though, Athrun gives Shinn his first Brightslapping, telling him to be more responsible with his power and stop trying to play hero. I'm not sure I agree with Athrun's reaction to what Shinn did... but I'm not sure I disagree, either... Athrun later has a nice chat with Shinn after the Minerva gets to Mahamul Base. The two seem to at least lay their cards on the table with each other, Athrun clearly becoming a mentor to Shinn, and warning him that his own actions cause pain to others, just as others have hurt him. It's an important lesson, I just hope Shinn takes it to heart and learns to cool his attitude soon. Frankly, other than his rescue of the civilian slave laborers, I haven't had much reason at all to like Shinn. I understand him, but he's far from likeable. Totally opposite of how I feel about Kira Yamato.

Meanwhile, the Archangel is hiding underwater off the coast of Scandinavia, which has granted them refuge. The crew is watching the news, trying to get a grip on what's happening before they figure out their next move. Cagalli notices that all the actual news they're getting is about turmoil on Earth - mostly small groups and nations like Western Eurasia who are rebelling against the "new world order" the Alliance is forcing on the world. There's no news from the PLANTs, just coverage of a return concert of "Lacus Clyne" - the imposter Meer Campbell. Her "new" style is very energetic and very, ah, bouncy. Meer has bigger boobs than the real Lacus, and in a funny scene later on, the two mechanic kids on the Minerva make lewd comments (and are caught by Athrun).

The Archangel's crew discusses the PLANTs and Chairman Durandel. Murrue and Cagalli both admire him and think he's been doing the right thing... except for that attempted assassination of Lacus, assuming he was responsible. KIra doesn't trust Durandel, thinking he's tricking everyone. Waltfeld points out a universal truth to Kira: "You could say that's what politics is all about." And Cagalli hopes Athrun makes it back from the PLANTs so they can know what's going on (unaware that he's already back on Earth).

The Minerva arrives at ZAFT's Mahamul base for a stopover and prep for a mission to take out an Earth Forces' Lohengrin emplacement in a valley/ravine that's preventing ZAFT from moving through the Suez region. There's a town behind the mountain that's being occupied and terrorized by the Alliance troops, with a haunted little resistance fighter girl named Coniel delivering some information on the Lohengrin's location that Shinn will use in the coming battle. But... sigh... Shinn acts like a real jerk during the briefing. And here I'd hoped maybe Athrun's earlier talk with him might start to straighten him out a bit. Athrun's got his hands full with this kid. Afterwards Lunamaria compliments Athrun's handling of Shinn, and he says Shinn isn't a bad person. Maybe Athrun sees a little bit of his younger self in his "protegé"?

So there's a big, wild battle as the Minerva and some support forces move into the ravine and attack the Lohengrin emplacement and its defenses. Shinn takes off in the Core Splendor (with the other Impulse Gundam components following), and uses the data he got from Coniel to fly through an underground fissure/cavern system leading under and out of the Lohengrin emplacement's mountain. He does some -really- fancy flying to get through there, then as soon as he's out and right on top of the Lohengrin, he combines his Gundam and takes it out - and is the Big Damn Hero of the day, as the ZAFT troops fly into Coniel's town and liberate it.

It's a strange and surreal scene as Shinn's Impulse and Athrun's Savior land in the town and are greeted by the cheering, happy locals.... while just a few yards away, Earth Forces' soldiers, captured by the local resistance, are executed. Shinn looks very happy... while Athrun looks troubled. Maybe he's wondering if the hero status will get to Shinn's head... and troubled by the executions taking place right there among the celebrating crowds. Very surreal...

After that, the Minerva makes it to another ZAFT base on the Black Sea coast called Diocuia, at the same time that Chairman Durandel and "Lacus Clyne" aka Meer Campbell arrive for a USO-type concert for the ZAFT troops. Meer puts on a heck of a show, dancing on the hands of a custom-painted pink ZAKU Warrior adored with hearts and the word "LOVE," her "new energetic style" and bouncing boobies enthralling the crowds, as she sings and shows her support for the ZAFT troops, preaching her message of peace and a hope for a quick end to the war. Athrun is shocked and appalled, even as Lunamaria and her little sister Meyrin seem to be "competing" for Athrun's attention. Athrun sure does have a lot of girls chasing him in this series! But I think he's smart enough to steer clear of girl trouble and get back to the one he belongs with: Cagalli. She's a keeper, Athrun!

Also seeing the concert, from outside the ZAFT base fence, are Miriella (shooting photos again) and the Alliance's Gundam pilot trio. I hope we get some dialogue and something meaningful from Miriella later in the series besides brief, wordless cameos. As for the Phantom Pain kids... well, trouble's come to town.

After the concert, Durandel meets with Captain Talia Gladys and Rey Zu Barrel, and Rey's very happy to see Durandel, giving him a big hug. I wonder what their relationship is? Family? Friends? Old lovers? Teacher & student? Rey's reaction and the hug are quite surprising. But considering the whole Rey = Rau Le Creuset/Neo = Mu La Flaga similarity/conspiracy thing going... and as I saw this, I also just remembered a line from an earlier episode saying that Gilbert Durandel is a DNA analyst.... I have to wonder. Is Rey a Rau clone, concocted by or somehow connected to Durandel? Hmm...

Shortly after, the other MS pilots from the Minerva also arrive to have dinner with Durandel. Shinn's been recommended for a commendation for his heroics (I would assume in taking out the Lohengrin earlier). The group gets into a frank discussion of the war, Shinn's desire to protect non-combatants, Athrun's merry-go-round problem with not understanding why people keep fighting, and so on. Durandel takes the conversation in a direction that seems to surprise everyone, talking about one of the root causes of war, not just the current one, but most wars: monetary profit. The constant cycle of using and destroying and replacing and upgrading war machinery, and the desire for weapon manufacturers to spark off wars if one isn't going, just so they can make money.

It's so absolutely true, and it just makes me love the character of Durandel even more. There's some things about him that give me pause (Meer Campbell, the question of if he ordered the assassination of Lacus), but it's so hard to -not- like this guy! It's a pure joy, watching him in verbal action, the awesome voice of Char Aznable speaking so much political and philosophical truth that your usual crop of politicians and power-brokers won't touch with a ten-foot-pole because it exposes them for the shams they are. The world could use more people like Gilbert Durandel.

Durandel mentions the shady new world order elitist group Logos, and that he thinks they're behind the war. And he wants to do something about it, or the wars between Earth and the PLANTs will never end. Considering Muruta Azrael was the head of some arms manufacturing conglomerate, and he's the one who arranged for the nuking of Junius 7... well, Blue Cosmos and its Logos puppet-masters may have started the war for their own twisted ideological purposes, but hey, why not make some cash at the same time? Ugh...

After their meal, the group is going their separate ways when Meer Campbell shows up, throwing herself at Athrun in her bubbly, super-happy, typically excited way. The other pilots are surprised, baffled, and amused. I would be too. After this, Durandel privately asks Athrun if he knows where the Archangel and the real Lacus Clyne are. Athrun doesn't know, and he asks the same of Durandel, and they agree to share any information if they find out anything. Durandel says he'd like for the real Lacus to come home to the PLANTs. Does he...? Hmm... my spidey sense is tingling.

Episode 20 is just a recap episode, narrated from Shinn's point of view, with a bit of new footage of him and his family added in. Nothing much to talk about on this one, really.

Miscellaneous notes and comments:

Stella squeals and is excited when she sees Neo - I guess she's got a big schoolgirlish crush on her commanding officer. Sting strikes me as having a big brotherly affection for Stella. Auel is just the Yzak of their team - the hot-blooded arrogant one.

Lunamaria gets a shower scene! Nothing particularly racey, though. *pouts*

Meyrin's apparently obsessed she's putting on weight. It's cute in a predictably teenage girl sort of way. But then she's throwing herself at Athrun... go figure.

The Gells-Ghe MS/MA hybrid thing looks freaky, like a mad scientist got his hands on a mobile suit factory.

The GOUF Ignited looks pretty cool. And who is that new golden-haired pilot who shows up with it and is at the dinner with Durandel? I see him in the newest opening credits, too. Guess I'll find out soon enough.

Arthur's bouncing to Meer's music is hilarious, as it Talia's reaction to Arthur's bouncing.

That's all for now, Episodes 21 thru 25 coming soon!

[domino]

The Impulse is still low-rent Strike, but the Dueterion Beam is a nifty little widget.

Are you sure about that?

I thought that the Impulse Gundam is better than the Strike in basically every way especially in terms of its weapon packs.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

I take issue with the design philosophy of the Impulse not being particularly original except for a few tweaks here and there.

In fact I was always a bit confused as to why ZAFT designed its own Gundams as thye don't match up with the rest of their MS aesthetic.

[Mu La Flaga]

I would say in terms of MS construction a Core Splendor system is pretty revolutionary for CE Arbiter.

However I see where your issue is Impule's idea of packs ripped off from the Strike's idea.

Personally I like both machines.

I would be inclined to call Strike Rouge low-rent Strike, since it's Strike Gundam with Aile pack only usually and in pinnkish red colours.

[Antares]

Burke said:

custom-painted pink ZAKU

That Zaku encapsulated my growing dislike of Destiny in one fell swoop. It haunted my dreams, destroy the abomination!

Durandal does make pretty good speeches, huh?

Spoiler

Which is why it was all the more disappointing for him to go from a known friend of all pets into the puppy-stomper of CE in the span of basically two episodes, regardless of the foreshadowing.

Athrun's slapping of Shinn seemed to be pretty much a symptom of his own indecisiveness. He felt like he needed to intervene somehow, and that was all he managed. When Athrun gets angry in Destiny, it tends to be for reasons he finds himself unable to express. Shouting "Shinn!!!" and slapping the poor sucker doesn't really communicate his concerns as well as the "mentor" might hope.

[Jaynz]

And here I thought she only had eyes for Gil, no?

I took that as a more 'maternal' thing. Something that is the center of her character - but only when the writers' actually remember that tidbit. ("Don't look at that woman like that, son, BEHAVE!")

The constant cycle of using and destroying and replacing and upgrading war machinery, and the desire for weapon manufacturers to spark off wars if one isn't going, just so they can make money.

Actually this is exactly backwards, which is part of my problem with SEED Destiny. Weapon manufacturers do NOT make more money once a war is started - most of them go broke (usually due to nationalization) or are destroyed (since they're big ass targets). A cold war situation works well for their pockets, but not an actual war. The motivations listed in SEED for the war were far more human and realistic.. plain old-fashioned bigotry and a steadily-increasing amount of hate.

[Jaynz]

I take issue with the design philosophy of the Impulse not being particularly original except for a few tweaks here and there.

It's pretty much the RA-78-2's and Strike's illegitimate love-child. In its overall performance it's officially listed as being the Strike's equal. (The Core Fighter/Splendor being its primary functional difference). It's definitely not original, though, but it's a functional design and the Sword Impulse coloration is pretty spiffy.

In fact I was always a bit confused as to why ZAFT designed its own Gundams as they don't match up with the rest of their MS aesthetic.

Basing this thought on the MSVs and some of the later suits we see in Destiny, Astray, and Stargazer, I think that ZAFT was attempting to re-create the Alliance tech that ZAFT didn't yet have. Their successes would then be made into new ZAKU/GOUF variants, or into new Wizard packs.

Since none of the ZAFT Gundam designs would ever make it to MP status, they all really strike me as 'skunk works' projects only. (The same way the US Military would recreate MiG Fighters from ones that were downed. Granted, we didn't field them as ace units...)

(Sorry about the double-post. I MEANT to have all these replies in one and must have hit something wrong... Please don't KEEEEEL me, mods!)

[Chris]

Actually this is exactly backwards, which is part of my problem with SEED Destiny. Weapon manufacturers do NOT make more money once a war is started - most of them go broke (usually due to nationalization) or are destroyed (since they're big ass targets). A cold war situation works well for their pockets, but not an actual war. The motivations listed in SEED for the war were far more human and realistic.. plain old-fashioned bigotry and a steadily-increasing amount of hate.

Depends on the kind of war. With the one-sided foreign invasions the U.S. has conducted in the last ten years, defense contractors are doing better than ever. I would imagine that most of the Atlantic Federation defense contractors are based in America, which didn't suffer any damage throughout DESTINY other than Break the World. And let's not kid ourselves, the actions in DESTINY are very unsubtle attempts to comment on Iraq.

(Sorry about the double-post. I MEANT to have all these replies in one and must have hit something wrong... Please don't KEEEEEL me, mods!)

The Edit button is your friend.

[Jaynz]

Depends on the kind of war. With the one-sided foreign invasions the U.S. has conducted in the last ten years, defense contractors are doing better than ever.

Not really. Even while Bush and Obama (to risk the politics a little bit) were pushing foreign interventions, defense budgets have been steadily declining. Iron mongers are easy groups to vilify, of course, due to the nature of their business, but since they ARE so easy to vilify, political groups will scape-goat them and hover contracts and nationalization over their heads... Well, you can see what happens.

The situation in SEED Destiny makes even less sense, since it's a global conflict with global devastation. Unless most of LOGOS was backing Vault-Tec, there were some serious holes in their plans.... (Of course, LOGOS itself is a pretty blatant stab at the EU as well as a 'new' take on the Romafella foundation, and again not really all that well done.)

I would imagine that most of the Atlantic Federation defense contractors are based in America, which didn't suffer any damage throughout DESTINY other than Break the World. And let's not kid ourselves, the actions in DESTINY are very unsubtle attempts to comment on Iraq.

Comment badly, yes. "Have the world overreact to a silly little terrorist plot to blow up the entire world" was a bit off for the commentary, though - and probably one reason the war's commentary shifted so heavily to revamp SEED so much by the end.

The Edit button is your friend.

Didn't catch it until after the fact. :S

[Chris]

Not really. Even while Bush and Obama (to risk the politics a little bit) were pushing foreign interventions, defense budgets have been steadily declining. Iron mongers are easy groups to vilify, of course, due to the nature of their business, but since they ARE so easy to vilify, political groups will scape-goat them and hover contracts and nationalization over their heads... Well, you can see what happens.

I don't want to take us off topic into politics, but U.S. defense spending has consistently increased, not decreased, since 2001. The rate at which spending increases has slowed down recently, but it is always going up. Speaking strictly about America, nationalization means nothing. Defense contractors and the government are so intermingled now that it's hard to tell them apart.

[Jaynz]

I don't want to take us off topic into politics, but U.S. defense spending has consistently increased, not decreased, since 2001.

Not quite. As a percentage of GDP its way down and continuing to go down sharply. We've had 'spikes' in raw dollars spent due to modernization, however. (I'm in Colorado Springs, and the majority of people I know are either in the military or military contractors. This board really isn't big enough to rattle on their bitch list.)

Spoiler

But, my main point is, again, that the idea that military contractors want a war for sales, much less actively create a war for this purpose, much less one which would destroy the world, is demonstrably false. This has never once happened in history, so the ridiculous conspiracy of LOGOS is... ridiculous. The more simple, straight-forward causes for SEED's conflict were far more believable than a room of evil boogy-men wanting to line up their pockets with money destined (excuse the pun) to be worthless if their plans actually succeed.

[flamingtroll]

Not quite. As a percentage of GDP its way down and continuing to go down sharply. We've had 'spikes' in raw dollars spent due to modernization, however. (I'm in Colorado Springs, and the majority of people I know are either in the military or military contractors. This board really isn't big enough to rattle on their bitch list.)

Just also want to point out that percentage of "GDP" is also not a good metric considering the kind of leverage on money that was avaliable throughout that decade with "financial innovations" especially in the last decade. Not that I think the political motivations in CE were sensible much to begin with.

EDIT: not to take us further, but my point is just that the real value cost of military expenditure (i.e after inflation) would just be as valid as a metric when compared to the "% of GDP", beucase % GDP can just be as emphereal as anything.

[Jaynz]

Just also want to point out that percentage of "GDP" is also not a good metric considering the kind of leverage on money that was avaliable throughout that decade with "financial innovations" especially in the last decade. Not that I think the political motivations in CE were sensible much to begin with.

Well, here's where it breaks down for me in LOGOS. (I'll keep this to SEED, just to bring this back on track). You're actually talking a conspiracy of trillions of dollars and millions of people involved in one way or another to make it happen, with most of those millions agreeing to get screwed over (if not outright killed) for absolutely no gain. Errr... right?

Could a group like LOGOS exist? Sure, a conglomerate of bickering companies trying to get government contracts, etc. We have many of those, of course, such as OPEC., General Foods, and so on. (They're called 'cartels', usually, without the criminal implications). And some of those could be shady - but it's the specifics of the conspiracy and plotting of LOGOS which is just outright stupid.

EDIT: not to take us further, but my point is just that the real value cost of military expenditure (i.e after inflation) would just be as valid as a metric when compared to the "% of GDP", because % GDP can just be as ephemeral as anything.

Well, my real point was just that actual wars are bad for an iron monger's profit motive. The 'ideal' economic model for iron mongers to gain maximum profits is to maintain an equilibrium within a cold war environment. LOGOS's conspiracy would marginally work and be marginally acceptable right up until "Break the World", at which point they should be defecating rectangular prisms of crimson concrete.