Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Jaynz wrote:Deuterium is just heavy hydrogen (add a neutron to hydrogen for an AW of 2), and is a type of fuel that can be used in nuclear reactions. The idea, I think, is that the Destiny is nuclear powered, but that some of the advanced systems are just that much more powerful that it burns the nuclear fuel at a high clip. SEED Destiny's tech is the second worst of the 'real robot' Gundam shows, unfortunately, and the writers clearly didn't know what they were talking about.
I'm well aware of what Deuterion is I'm just reiterating part of the MAHQ profile as I understood it
Spoiler
The Destiny Gundam uses a hyper deuterion nuclear reactor to power its systems. This new design stores power in deuterion form, providing a continuous deuterion charge and, in theory, an endless power supply. However, it is possible for the suit's power to be expended before the reactor can replenish it.
*Not a spoiler as far as I know.
Jaynz wrote:Sadly, 00 will top this with the techno-babble nonsense and just bad science.
I felt 00
Spoiler
was at least consistent in most of it's techno-babble (and I think the writers there at least acknowledge how silly they were being with GN Beer) and it's real world tech seemed at least somewhat plausible (anything non GN) but that's a disscussion for another time and place.
Again this should not really be a spoiler but just in case
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Burke Rukes wrote:And aside from the repetitive stock footage, which I can live with... they keep reusing the same cheezy tropes over and over. Kira constantly swooping in at the last second to save an ally's bacon. Doesn't anyone -else- do this?...I get that Kira and Athrun are supposed to essentially be "super-heroes" in this series, but this is getting a bit tiresome...Meyrin helps injured Athrun get to the Archangel's hangar, where they look at the Infinite Justice Gundam. Lacus comes in, and Athrun asks if the new Gundam is for him. She says yes, if he chooses to. Lacus explains that Athrun is more than a soldier, he's Athrun, and that's all there is to it.
The overuse of stock footage and repeat of SEED "hero tropes" take at least 90% of the gusto out of the battles in the last quarter of Destiny. If not for the intriguing overall plot, a lot of these battles would be very boring. But here we have Akatsuki (now to be piloted by the skilled Neo/Mu), Strike Freedom, and Infinite Justice all on the same side...plus the Eternal's equipment. Talk about giving the super-heroes super powers! Isn't it a bit unfair to Destiny and Legend, who were JUST introduced, to be essentially second-class suits?
Burke Rukes wrote:Archangel and Minerva continue to slug it out, when Neo comes flying in with the Skygrasper and shoots down some of Minerva's missiles! He apologizes to Murrue for getting in the way, but he has a thing against the Minerva. He adds that they'll win, because he has "a knack for making the impossible possible." Yeah... he's soooooo Mu La Flaga. But what the heck happened to him?!...Yuna is being taken to a shelter for holding when he tries to make a break for it. He's summarily squashed like the bug he is by the falling wreck of a GOUF. Good riddance, you sniveling, slimey clown
I don't know what my judgment is of Neo/Mu. I thought bringing Andy back for a bit role was kind of annoying in SEED, and Mu had just as, if not more, of an important death as Andy in Season 1. But I liked Neo as a masked man a great deal...and this "second chance" to make things right with Murrue is kind of interesting. There are a lot of gray areas, though, and it does border on cheapening things...In the end, this isn't a deal-breaker for Destiny. There are bigger issues than Neo/Mu.

Yuna's defeat is poetic justice, and maybe one of the better elements of this Orb battle, which I just don't remember liking a lot.
Burke Rukes wrote:Anyway, Rey says the Chairman is right, and that's good enough for him. Gotta love that "my country, right or wrong" mentality... sigh. Rey says what's important now is Athrun, who's piloting the new Infinite Justice and is with the Archangel. Luna is surprised to hear this, and hopes Meyrin is alive, too. Shinn is anguished and confused, remembering when he thought he killed them.
We're really going after Rey here, aren't we! :lol: Rey's motives go a bit deeper than "patriotism," as you should figure out in the coming episodes. But all and all, despite his mixed actions, I like Rey as a character. A really rewarding and interesting grunt MS character, as far as I'm concerned. Like Durandel, he is a cool cucumber with a lot more than what appears on the surface going on in his thoughts, words, and actions.
Burke Rukes wrote:At Daedalus Base, the Earth Forces are preparing to fire their new lunar-based super-weapon, called Requiem.
This Daedulus Base situation is the last "battle scenario" I really liked in Destiny. It's execution was hurt by stock footage, IIRC, but the idea was solid. First off, the Requiem is a really surprising and creative super-weapon (even if the destruction it causes does feel a bit forced on the viewers as time limits start to constrain this series' final payoff). The build-up and plan to get inside and destroy the base is neat, and Djibril's final fate is well done. Also, even though Shinn and Lunamaria are pretty forced...there's something that appeals to me about these two as a potential couple (like it was under their noses all along and they never looked at what was there). That floating hug scene comes across as more poignant visually than it probably should. I think it keeps a sense of humanity among these soldiers.
Burke Rukes wrote:Alright, here's a big "a-ha!" scene on the Archangel, which I ate up and really enjoyed. The gang is on the bridge, discussing Durandal's motives...She thinks Durandal wants to show everyone a new solution to this problem: a world without conflict, through his "Destiny Plan," where everyone's life is pre-determined by the genes they're given, with undesirable traits are weeded out or adjusted...The group thinks that Durandal, in his new "destiny" world order, would probably set himself up as a high priest of sorts. Kira asks Athrun to come to space with him, to stop Durandal. "We can't let destiny decide our future for us." Good stuff. :D
The whole Destiny Plan concept is an interesting story development, though it sort of comes a little late given the episode count, IMO. More to say on this later in this post...
Burke Rukes wrote:We also see a very brief flash of a slightly younger Talia, with what seems to be her son... looks like she had that child she wanted. I wonder where her son is now?
Keep this plot thread in mind as you near the finale. Also, it is curiously reemphasized in Final Plus. (However, the full extent of its meaning would have probably been revealed in Destiny's sequel anime project, which was announced, promoted with a voice actor event, and then put on indefinite hiatus)...
Burke Rukes wrote:Athrun notices she's not wearing the ring during this speech...Cagalli asks Meyrin to take care of Athrun for her, then she leaves, tears in her eyes. The Archangel then launches, Cagalli and Kisaka saluting as it takes off.
...What might this mean! :shock: :wink:
Burke Rukes wrote:Whew... a LOT of stuff happening in these 5 episodes! I have to say, though, at this point in the series, Destiny feels like a disjointed mix of some great scenes, great dialogue, and occasionally great MS battles (when they're not abusing the stock footage too much), and overall, I'm still very much enjoying the "big picture" plot. However, the series has some serious flaws, too. Some minor plot points that are overlooked or handled badly, characterizations that feel weird or completely off the mark at times... I dunno. I still have 7-and-a-half more episodes to go, and I'll wait until the end to make my final judgment on Destiny.
Yeah, there are still those solid/intriguing moments up until the end, but the whole of events, battles in particular, lose luster. That's what makes Destiny so hard to make a "final judgement" on. It's clear from the discussion that both you, I, and others enjoyed parts of the series a great deal, though, and it's hard to negate that totally...
Burke Rukes wrote:And in relation to a previous post by LightningCount regarding the relationship of the Gundam names with their pilots and their personalities/roles in the series, I had a thought occur to me today, in regards to the Legend Gundam. The numbers in its model number are 666 - the so-called "Mark of the Beast." I think the "mark" could be DNA... and the "beast" is Rau Le Creuset. That is, if Rey Za Burrell is indeed a clone of Rau Le Creuset. ;) I'm still not sure how the name "Legend" plays into Rey's personality or role, aside from the maybe-Rau's-clone thing, Rey being a "living legend" genetic namesake of an unforgettable super-villain. But I could be way off the mark on this. I have 7.5 more episodes to find out. :)
Interesting point. I don't think it's too early to say that Legend was meant to be Athrun, but also fittingly became Rey when Athrun wouldn't play his part and gave in to his sense of Justice (described earlier in thread).

Legend =

a. An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical/A traditional story or tale that has no proven factual basis
b. A body or collection of such stories.
c. A romanticized or popularized myth of modern times.
2. One that inspires legends or achieves legendary fame.

ALSO: "Unlike a fairytale or joke, Legends are presented (and generally accepted) as true; it offers information, moral judgments, or warnings which reflect the preoccupations of the hearers. In practice, the status of legends is more complex, both as regards orality and perceived truthfulness."

Shinn was the soldier molded by Destiny for Durandal. Athrun was the Legend who was supposed to live and perpetuate that role/image whether it was true or not--the hero of ZAFT and PLANTS, ace MS pilot, who stood up to his father. And Rey...well, you're getting the right idea. Aside from the concept of a legacy of fame, the fact that Legends deal in "warnings" and "moral judgments," and can appear true but have false notions all link up to Rey's character, and the revelations and actions yet to come.
Burke Rukes wrote:And speaking of the bigger picture... Gilbert Durandal has become one of the true Magnificent Bastards of Gundamdom. I still need to watch the last few episodes to see his final endgame and his fate, but I gotta say, he's about as slick as they come in terms of smooth-talking, charismatic, underhanded, slimy-behind-the-scenes politicians. He's pulled one of the biggest con games on humanity in this story, and he had everyone on his side eating out of his hand - including many of us, the viewers (and I certainly admit to it for myself) - and he said one thing, and did exactly the opposite. And now some people have figured out what sort of hypocritical monster he really is. He's as equally (if not more) dangerous than Djibril and the Logos/Blue Cosmos/Earth Alliance bigwigs he's warring against, he just does it in a completely different way, that's totally manipulative and blindsides his opponents. I'd admire him, if I didn't despise him now.
Outside of the crafty, idealistic, well-spoken Treize Kushrenada, Durandal is probably my favorite Gundam "mastermind." But despite everything he does, and despite the malign he gets from the original SEED cast, he's not 100% evil. He's not the same as the genocidal Patrick Zala, or even as unreasonable as "doomsday" Rau. Durandal means well. As in ep. 29 FATES, and his own regretted fate with Talia (a life he was denied), he wants people to achieve their meaning in life, and thus, contentment with one's self. With everyone having a purpose and a place, they'll have no need to hate or attack one another. To present this idea, he needed to first root out the ones "interfering" with destiny like Djibril and Logos. I'm not giving Durandal a pass by any means, or saying he's right, but he makes a compelling point that makes his character a sympathetic "villain." Maybe I'll have my thoughts on this better arranged later, as I feel words are failing my point.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Chris wrote:We are shown EA characters who are not connected to Blue Cosmos/Logos/Phantom Pain, and they're just as bad. I mentioned the examples of the Strike Dagger pilots in SEED or the Windam pilots from the nuclear attack in GSD. There's also Garcia and his fellow Eurasian jerks from Artemis.
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. I don't actually recall what you're referring to with the initial appearance of the Strike Daggers (though I do recall ZAFT pilots quite happily slaughtering them after they've been disabled by ZAFT's EMP attack, despite the fact that they surrender), the nuclear attack on the PLANTs during Destiny came just after ZAFT had, as far as those pilots knew, just tried to exterminate them all (again), and although the guys from Artemis were jerks, being a dick doesn't make you evil.
Chris wrote:As for fighting a ZAFT invasion, that's not the point either. It's clear that Logos was spoiling for war
Right. Logos was spoiling for war. Not OMNI, not the average Earth Alliance citizen, Logos. The fact that Logos effectively controls the Earth Alliance is terrible, given what a bunch of psychos they are, but the point I'm making is that Logos being evil doesn't make the Earth Alliance as a whole evil, even though the Earth Alliance was controlled by Logos. People can only act on the information they have available. Given what the typical soldier in OMNI knew, their actions in Destiny were entirely justified.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

LightningCount wrote: Keep this plot thread in mind as you near the finale. Also, it is curiously reemphasized in Final Plus. (However, the full extent of its meaning would have probably been revealed in Destiny's sequel anime project, which was announced, promoted with a voice actor event, and then put on indefinite hiatus)...
Would this be a reference to the mysterious Gundam SEED Eternity I heard about?

And Kirby, the EA might not be wholly evil but we see more of corrupt military officers working for BC/LOGOS and civilians holding anti-coordinator rallies than we do of decent characters.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:And Kirby, the EA might not be wholly evil but we see more of corrupt military officers working for BC/LOGOS and civilians holding anti-coordinator rallies than we do of decent characters.
Sure, because for whatever reason, Destiny wanted to tell a story about cackling villains trying to commit genocide rather than normal people trying to defend their homeland from invaders. That doesn't mean that the latter doesn't exist just because the former does, though.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Burke Rukes wrote:Returning to our regularly scheduled program, Murrue sets Neo free on a quiet corner of Onogoro Island, giving him a Skygrasper to use as he wants. Murrue's eyes are wet with tears and she turns her back. Neo is confused, and looks concerned for her. Murrue asks if he's really not Mu, but he has no answer. Ummm, while I really want to feel for Murrue and what she's going through... and while all evidence points to Neo actually being a brainwashed/reprogrammed Mu... why is she cutting him loose and giving him an armed fighter plane? For starters... HE'S A BRAINWASHED/REPROGRAMMED Mu! He's not entirely the same guy you fell in love with, Murrue! Oh, and did you forget that he was in charge of the Earth Forces that invaded and destroyed three Eurasian cities, killing who knows how many innocent civilians? And you're cutting this guy LOOSE because he MIGHT be your old flame? *sigh*
Talia gets one up here on Murrue because at the very least she would have kept the guy locked up until...
Athrun asks Meyrin to leave the Archangel before it takes off, since it'll be fighting ZAFT. He apologizes for dragging her into this, but she doesn't want to be left behind. This girl's got a crush big on Athrun, doesn't she? :P
(grinds teeth) Yes she does, doesn't she? Actually I don't dislike Meyrin, I just dislike what's going on between Athrun and Cagalli.
Archangel launches, and the Minerva joins the battle, while Shinn's Destiny battle Cagalli's Akatsuki and the Murasames. Shinn starts putting the hurt on Cagalli, when - big surprise - Kira swoops down in the Strike Freedom to the rescue and battles Shinn now. Oh, and tagging along is yet another new salmon-red Aegis-y/Justice-y Gundam, currently piloted by Lacus (*blinks in surprise*). Must be for Athrun. Guess they figured he might be back on their side someday, huh?
Would it have been too much to ask for Cagalli to get one really good hit on Shinn in this fight?
And aside from the repetitive stock footage, which I can live with... they keep reusing the same cheezy tropes over and over. Kira constantly swooping in at the last second to save an ally's bacon. Doesn't anyone -else- do this? Okay, Athrun occasionally does this when Kira gets in trouble (assuming that he and Kira aren't fighting this week). But seriously, when's the last time anyone remembers when a not-main-hero pilot saves a main hero pilot? It happened lots in other Gundam shows. Before starting SEED, I watched Zeta, and I couldn't tell you how many times Kamille was in trouble, and a far-less-effective pilot like Katz or Fa at least managed to swoop in and provide a distraction so he could get out of his fix. I get that Kira and Athrun are supposed to essentially be "super-heroes" in this series, but this is getting a bit tiresome.
Agreed.
Kira tells Cagalli to get back to Orb's defense HQ while he handles Shinn/Destiny and tells Murrue to take in Lacus/Infinite Justice. The Minerva then intercepts the Archangel, kicking off a pretty fun ship-vs-ship battle. A trio of DOM Troopers land and start fighting the ZAFT forces, even doing the classic Jet-Stream Attack from First Gundam! Say what you want about cheezy homages and ripoffs, this had me grinning from ear to ear. :D Lacus informs Murrue that the DOM Troopers are allies. However, this is the only episode we see the three DOM pilots in - I hope we see them again. I feel like there's a fun story waiting to be told about these three. :)
Wait until you've seen who the lead DOM pilot is. Oh and you want to know what DOM stands for in CE? The full name is Dauntless Obliterator Magnificent Trooper. :?
Cagalli enters the Orb defense HQ control room, where a beaten and bruised Yuna is tied up and held prisoner. He whines and says he tried to do his best while she was gone... but she just punches him hard. YEAH!!!! :D Cagalli admits she's just as much at fault as he is. She demands to know where Djibril is, but he doesn't know. She orders Yuna taken away, and for their forces to push the ZAFT invaders back, and hopefully force a cease-fire.
That... was... satisfying. Unfortunately it's the last awesome thing Cagalli does in this show
Djibril is making yet another escape, escorted by some Orb soldiers. Okay, I have to point out another "wtf" thing here. The Orb military works for and answers to their own chain of command and the Orb government. Djibril is just a guest, they don't work for him or follow his orders. If Cagalli (now firmly back in charge of the government and military) wants Djibril arrested... why don't they just call those soldiers escorting him? Don't they have radios or cell phones or something? This seems like a badly thought out arrangement that allows Djibril to make his getaway.
Initiate Emergency Tactical Facepalm.

Alright, another pause here to complain about another trope horse that's getting beaten to death in this series. The whole "I thought you were dead" thing. SEED used it a -few- times and used it well. Destiny is abusing it. I'm tired of it at this point. And before I move on, if you're a Babylon 5 fan like me, you know the proper response to "I thought you were dead" is "I was. I'm better now." :P
Or, "Death is overrated," or "Hell was boring so I came back."
Yuna is being taken to a shelter for holding when he tries to make a break for it. He's summarily squashed like the bug he is by the falling wreck of a GOUF. Good riddance, you sniveling, slimey clown!
At least they gave him a fittingly chump death and he squeals like a pig when it happens.
Djibril's waiting in a shuttle to take off, which is also supposed to be carrying Prime Minister Seiran and Yuna. They're late. Well, we know why Yuna's late, but what happened to his father? Did I miss something? (I probably did, it took me a while to watch this round of 5 episodes, lots of interruptions and pausing 'cause of stuff going on.) Anyway, Djibril wants to take off now and get to the moon, telling the Orb military guys escorting him that the Seirans don't matter. Way to treat your allies/hosts, dirtbag.
I believe Unato was also squashed but in his case it was the cieling of the shelter he was cowering in. Satisfying.

Murrue visits Neo, who recites his (perceived) personal history, but says now he's not too sure of his memories. He feels that he definitely knows Murrue, and that's why he couldn't just fly off. He asks to stay by Murrue's side. She nods and they hug. Awwwww, how sweet! I sort of felt happy for Murrue except... NEO IS A WAR CRIMINAL! *sigh* I'm not letting this one go, folks. This is really ticking me off. Mu La Flaga's death was tragic and dramatic and had a big effect on Murrue (and us, the viewers)... and now this whole thing with Neo and her reaction to it... just feels both cheap and badly written and just flat-out wrong.
I saving up my rant for this for the end.

And her broadcast is interrupted by Meer Campbell posing as Lacus Clyne. Not-Lacus starts to give her own speech, asking why a friendly nation with ties to the PLANTs would harbor Djibril, a racist madman who uses nuclear weapons and brutalized children as weapons, etc. The real Lacus says it's alright, she knows what to do. She goes with Kira in the Strike Freedom to the Orb government council building. Meer continues to verbally attack Orb and Logos--

And HER broadcast is interrupted by the real Lacus, standing next to Cagalli, who says don't be deceived by the appearance of that other person, SHE'S Lacus Clyne. Durandal is taken aback, not knowing what she's doing in Orb. I guess he thought she was still out in space, possibly on the Eternal. The real Lacus says she fought alongside the Archangel in the previous war, and now is with Orb. Much confusion is abound among the ZAFT viewers, with Meer looking like a deer caught in the headlights, looking at her script. Lacus says she doesn't support Durandal. Durandel orders Meer's broadcast cancelled, otherwise they'd be playing right into Lacus' and Cagalli's hands.
I have to admit, this bit is particularly amusing.


Shinn and Lunamaria ask Rey about the two Lacus's, and Lunamaria remembers the meeting between Athrun, Kira, Cagalli and Mirialla where she heard about the real one almost being killed and Kira asking about the imposter on TV. Rey brushes it off, saying the enemy did this to cause confusion. During this scene we see flashback clips of Rau Le Creuset getting shot, losing his mask, and young Rey with Rau and Durandal - I wonder what this means? Anyway, Rey says the Chairman is right, and that's good enough for him. Gotta love that "my country, right or wrong" mentality... sigh. Rey says what's important now is Athrun, who's piloting the new Infinite Justice and is with the Archangel. Luna is surprised to hear this, and hopes Meyrin is alive, too. Shinn is anguished and confused, remembering when he thought he killed them.
Again this could have been a turning point for him but as we'll see...
At Daedalus Base, the Earth Forces are preparing to fire their new lunar-based super-weapon, called Requiem. Meanwhile, the gutted hull of an O'Neill type space colony is being moved towards the PLANTs, and Yzak and Dearka's team intercepts it, thinking it's a colony collision attack. The Requiem weapon is fired... the target is the capitol PLANT of Aprilius! The beam is bent and deflected through several O'Neill colony hulls and destroys several PLANTs, but misses Aprilius, because Yzak's team managed to deflect the final colony "aiming" deflection piece a bit during the battle.
The Requiem is kinda a stupid superweapon. It can't hit it's primary target without all these deflection hulks and it misses its intended target because Yzak and Dearka moves the final piece. Plus once all of the deflectors are destroyed it's almost useless.

T
alia gets the orders and acknowledges that it'll be difficult, but they have no choice but to do it. We also see a very brief flash of a slightly younger Talia, with what seems to be her son... looks like she had that child she wanted. I wonder where her son is now?
This is VERY important. Keep an eye out.
Shinn and Luna have another one of their weird huggy moments before they take off. What is up with this? It's not... bad but it just doesn't feel -right-. Anyway... Shinn promises to protect her and everyone else, and they take off.
Agreed. They should have been building up to this a bit more than just dropping it out of the clear blue sky.
Daedalus base launches... dunh-dunh-DUNH, a few more of those big, bad Destroy Gundams. And they're quickly taken out by Rey and Shinn. Seriously, the big scary superweapon that Stella originally piloted has become small fry at this point - it's rather sad. Or bad writing.
I vote for bad writing.
Athrun notices she's not wearing the ring during this speech...
Oh no...
Murrue announces that the Archangel is going to Copernicus to gather information. Cagalli asks "Captain Roanoke" (who got a haircut, I see) to take care of her Akatsuki. Ummm... Cagalli... WAR CRIMINAL! BRAINWASHED ENEMY! *sigh* Anyway... Cagalli leaves the dock, since she's not going with them, her duties as leader of Orb requiring her to stay home. Meyrin is back in pigtails (I think she looks much prettier with her hair down) and a ZAFT uniform, and is going with the Archangel. Cagalli asks Meyrin to take care of Athrun for her, then she leaves, tears in her eyes. The Archangel then launches, Cagalli and Kisaka saluting as it takes off.
I call foul here. ORB is not a democracy. The Akatsuki was Uzumi's final gift to Cagalli and then she just hands it off like it's nothing? I don't see any problem with her going into space with the rest of them. General Revil did it, Treize did it, Zeches and Char did it, even Bloodman and that SRA guy did it. Plus the scene with Meyrin? Combine it all together and I call this Cagalli's Final Failure.


Regarding Shinn's Destiny Gundam, I've noticed it seems to do a funky "after-image" thing sort of like the F91. And its big energy "wings" when it flies feel like an homage to Turn-A's moonlight butterfly wings... perhaps a hint that it, in its own way, is a weapon of mass destruction? Hmm.... *ponders*
This thing just has too many references, including Shining Fingers.

Oh, and just to let everyone know, I've also recently purchased copies of the various English-translated Astray manga (though I'm missing volume 4 of Astray R), and I plan to read them, as well as watch CE 73 Stargazer, after I wrap up Destiny Final Plus. I'll do that in the interim to give myself a break before I dive into 00. :)
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:And Kirby, the EA might not be wholly evil but we see more of corrupt military officers working for BC/LOGOS and civilians holding anti-coordinator rallies than we do of decent characters.
Which is unfortunate, and kind of the point he was getting at. The Earth Alliance are painted horribly compared to ZAFT, but how many named characters are on the EA and LOGOS side who are not evil? Virtually none, not in SEED Destiny. The only named characters we have is a brainwashed Mu, three brainwashed Extendeds, the cartoony-villain in Djibril, and not a whole lot more. Ian Lee was the captain of the Girty Lue, and Yuna and his father were allies to LOGOS, but apart from that I can't really think of anyone else. Todoka was part of the Orb Union and not in bed with LOGOS, but even if you insist on counting him, that's one.

ZAFT have Lunamaria, Meyrin, Arthur, Talia, Yzak, Dearka, and I would argue Shinn but he's a contentious pick. Joachim Ruddle (commander of ZAFT's Mahamul base) could possibly be a good guy too, but I can't really remember him.

The disparity is stark, and no-one really disputes it. But I believe that by making one side so evil - often comically so - sort of spits in the face of Gundam's ideals, which holds that war is usually waged between sympathetic people on both sides of the equation, a clash of ideologies rather than black-and-white good versus evil.

The Earth Alliance got the short end of the stick in SEED Destiny, as all the nice characters were either on ZAFT or Terminal. SEED wasn't nearly so bad with this, with many good people on all three sides (many of whom then got together on a fourth side to help save people).
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

I think the point of both Cosmic Era series was that BOTH the EA and ZAFT were evil, the only difference is that ZAFT did not start it, but nevertheless both sides for the most part were trying to eliminate each other with otherwise good people forced to take part of the conflict. SEED made ZAFT seemed like the greater of two evils, all Destiny did was switch 'em.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
LightningCount wrote: Keep this plot thread in mind as you near the finale. Also, it is curiously reemphasized in Final Plus. (However, the full extent of its meaning would have probably been revealed in Destiny's sequel anime project, which was announced, promoted with a voice actor event, and then put on indefinite hiatus)...
Would this be a reference to the mysterious Gundam SEED Eternity I heard about?
No, it's a reference to the in-development-hell "Gundam SEED Destiny: The Movie" (Not to be mistaken for Special Edition 1-4, which are called movies in North America, IIRC). It was supposed to be a theatrical follow-up to the events of Final Plus and Special Edition #4. I am speculating that, if the writers had any forethought, a larger exploration of this thread would be be a part of the movie.
Spoiler
(Given that Final Plus featured an edit to have Kira AND Athrun present for Talia's statement about a message for her son in Durandal's dying moment. I mean, you don't edit a character in or out unless there is import to the scene going forward, ala the erasure of Mu's helmet in SEED to make way for Neo).


Regarding the movie, Wikipedia has compiled all confirmed info:
Spoiler
Although a plot was written, production did not go ahead on the Gundam SEED Destiny theatrical film. It would have been the first full-length film within the Gundam metaseries since Mobile Suit Gundam F91 (1991), but because of the delays, the Mobile Suit Gundam 00 movie instead held that mantle. This film was first announced on May 6, 2006, at the Sony Music Anime Fes' 06 with a brief clip featuring the characters Shinn Asuka, Cagalli Yula Athha, Lacus Clyne, Kira Yamato, and Athrun Zala. After the Sony Music Anime Fes' 06 Sunrise announced the film on their website.

In the March 2008 issue of Animage magazine Chiaki Morosawa explained that a plot outline had been created but she had fallen ill due to cancer and required continuous treatment. The project has been placed on an indefinite hiatus, with Morosawa asking that fans to continue to wait. Houko Kuwashima, seiyū of character Stella Loussier, has stated on her "SEED Club blog" that the character will somehow also have a role in the film. Lacus, Yzak Joule, and Dearka Elsman will return as members of the PLANT Supreme Council and Kira, Shinn, and Lunamaria Hawke will be part of the ZAFT military.
DuelGundam2099 wrote:I think the point of both Cosmic Era series was that BOTH the EA and ZAFT were evil, the only difference is that ZAFT did not start it, but nevertheless both sides for the most part were trying to eliminate each other with otherwise good people forced to take part of the conflict. SEED made ZAFT seemed like the greater of two evils, all Destiny did was switch 'em.
While there could have been a better balance, I think this is true and good to note. Cosmic Era was more interested in playing with themes of destiny, genetics, free will, eye-for-an-eye, arms races, and military industrial complex conspiracies than it was about showing order and balance in the world's formal structures. It was the idea of a world gone mad on inferiority and superiority complexes due to man playing God. It's been rumored the series was originally called "Gundam Sin," and even if that's not true, Rau made it very clear that this series was about mankind's desires run wild and the dangers of it. What we have are military forces that have been corrupted by the Pandora's Box opened up by George Glenn. And that corruption bleeds through the ranks from the top down. I think there are some good souls left, but the writers don't want to detract from the out-of-control sins of Cosmic Era. With more episodes, featuring various scenarios, it could have been done differently, but the fact that people like Halberton, Mu La Flaga, Murrue, Natarle etc exist at all, they felt that was sufficient to prove that there were some varying degrees of beliefs and temperament in the Earth Forces. I think Cosmic Era was more about presenting extremes, though, and emphasizing the dangers of the Pandora's Box of genetic manipulation leading to distrust, fear, anger, and then fanaticism and destruction.

Who is right? Kira's "freedom" which can lead to the chaos of free will? Or Durandal's "destiny," which can lead to a manufactured peace? It's an interesting, gray-ish question that comes out of the extremes presented.

As an aside, something amusing I wanted to mention earlier: Justice Gundam/Infinite Justice has this headfirst, "slow-mo"-ish charging spin move with its beam sabers. IIRC, Kshatriya, from Gundam Unicorn, has a move that is very similar in episode 1 of Unicorn.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Actually, Duel, ZAFT did start it. The 'Bloody Valentine' was a retaliatory strike.
Tragedy of Copernicus (February 5)/Declaration of War (February 11, C.E. 70)
The war was declared on 11 February, Cosmic Era year 70, after a terrorist attack on a peace conference on the Moon on 5 February wiped out the United Nations's leadership.
Sadly this is a not-subtle-at-all political message from Morosawa (confirmed in her very contentious interview). It's a not-so-subtle poke at Americans for their 'over-reaction' to the events of 9-11 by attacking Iraq and Afghanistan. It's one of the things that makes SEED Destiny a bit hard to watch. While SEED at least kept the crazies to a smaller organization and handful of idiots in the Alliance command structure. SEED Destiny made it clear that every single anglophone in the CE was a raving bigoted psychopath that really, deep down, deserved what they were getting.
DuelGundam2099

Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Actually, Duel, ZAFT did start it. The 'Bloody Valentine' was a retaliatory strike.
I remembered it as an EA attack on coordinators that got ZAFT royally furious, I guess it goes to show no one's memory is perfect. :lol: Although the be fair coordinators were given serious ridicule before the events of SEED so I think it was a bit easy not remember who threw the first stone.

On another note, the SEED Destiny movie actually got written? Since it's been over three and a half years I don't even see a reason to look forward to it since Bandai is more interested in AGE, Unicorn, and adapting Origin. If it actually does get off the ground then I'll probably think "So they did it? Eh."
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

I'll thrown in some random comments before Burke wraps this up. I was travelling so I couldn't reply although I was following up on this. ;)

Cag's crying is one of the major bad writing -cases of the show, because it happens more than twice. She does get her spine back and retakes Orb, but then as to the Akatsuki.... well, that takes us neatly to Neo, doesn't it?

Burke wrote:
Neo goes to meet him in his Windham, and Shinn says he wants to return Stella to a world with no war or mobile suits or death, to a kind, warm world. Neo gives his word that he'll do this.
Sorry bro, I wuz trollin'. U mad?
Frankly, Mwu/Neo's conversion was a horrible additional slap in the face after his resurrection. You get the distinct feeling that "yeah it's complicated but we don't want to spend any time on it" from the writing, which impoverishes the quality of plot-flow. Mwu gets off the hook without even being put on it, really, about what he did as Neo. And certainly he wouldn't have deserved to get the Akatsuki, at least not as easily as he did. While I can see that re-spined Cags had to stay at Orb to restore sanity, and plot-wise no other pilot was available, it still reeked. As a shameless plug for my fanfic following after GSD, I did specifically make a point of giving Mwu some consequences of his actions as Neo.

Sting's death at Berlin would've been quite good and surprising, but no, only name-pilots get to kill name-pilots. And Sting was resurrected to die an even more pointless death.

Shinn trying to talk Stella out of levelling Berlin was doomed the fail (IIRC, Kira gave Shinn a shot to get her steady, and it was a shorting circuit that set her off forcing Kira to kill her), and Shinn getting pissed at her dying was the definitive moment for me when I started to really dislike him. After that I didn't even want him to beat Kira, even though that alone might've made the series a whole lot interesting.

Burke said:
[Durandal]'s about as slick as they come in terms of smooth-talking, charismatic, underhanded, slimy-behind-the-scenes politicians. He's pulled one of the biggest con games on humanity in this story, and he had everyone on his side eating out of his hand - including many of us, the viewers (and I certainly admit to it for myself) - and he said one thing, and did exactly the opposite.
Yes. You keep that intricate web of glib talk and convincing political finesse when you go through the last episodes and see how well he utilizes them.

What Chris said earlier (a few pages ago) about the Destroys was absolutely dead-on. It was amazing to see how quickly the Destroy got devalued. Sting was like the final nail to that coffin.

Athrun's near-death: notice how banged up he got (obviously got better as soon as possible) when Kira, subjected to the same treatment, didn't seem to need even a band-aid? ;) The sad thing about that was that since Kira lived, I was positive Athrun and Meyrin would too, so that pretty much killed the suspense. Not only was Shinn annoying and lacking in self-reflective faculties, he was also a bumbling pilot. :P

So, on the whole Burke, your disapointments seem much like ours, like AmuroNT1 already said. Although I fear it was unavoidable. Like the DOM pilots, slapped on just to hock their model kits, we see potential but lack of follow-through. It's good though that you seem more willing to tolerate it than I was when I first saw GSD. Waiting for your final thoughts on the series.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:The fact that Logos effectively controls the Earth Alliance is terrible, given what a bunch of psychos they are, but the point I'm making is that Logos being evil doesn't make the Earth Alliance as a whole evil, even though the Earth Alliance was controlled by Logos. People can only act on the information they have available. Given what the typical soldier in OMNI knew, their actions in Destiny were entirely justified.
My point is it's clearly displayed in SEED and GSD that there are bad people in the EA who have nothing to do with Logos/Blue Cosmos/Phantom Pain. Is it unrealistic? Absolutely. It's bad writing, but it's what we have. Even if you count the side stories the anime ignores, as AmuroNT1 mentioned, the "good" soldiers we see from the EA almost always end up leaving. There's no way that any government would be entirely evil, but SEED and GSD's writers go out of their way to depict them this way, so this clearly must be the message they wanted to send. There is definitely a bias toward ZAFT, since in SEED and GSD it gets sympathetic characters, even when there are leaders like Patrick Zala and Durandal who are up to no good. You're trying to argue something logical in a situation that is clearly illogical due to the bias of the writers.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Alright, here's the home stretch, my review and comments for Episodes 46 thru 50, plus Final Plus. I was mistaken in thinking there were 52 episodes, when there's really only 50. And this post is just damned long, but you all should be used to that by now. :P

ZAFT captures the 5 remaining Requiem beam deflection colony pieces. Durandal orders them moved to lunar orbit until they decide what to do with them, and he orders the Minerva crew to get some rest. Shinn and Rey are practicing in the ship's firing range, when Lunamaria comes to talk to Shinn, about her confusion over Meyrin and Athrun. She's still troubled, but she says not to worry about it, she knows Shinn was just following orders.

The Archangel docks at the lunar city of Copernicus. Athrun and Kira talk about Athrun's turning point, when he realized he was on the wrong path when Shinn almost killed Kira and Archangel was "shot down" by Minerva. Athrun says Shinn is a good kid just trying to make his hopes become reality.

Meer is at a private estate/resort in Copernicus, quietly singing Lacus songs, sad and bored out of her mind, and trying to not believe that Durandal would kill her. The manager/aide watchdog woman Durandal sent with her, Sarah, sees camera footage of Archangel docking at Copernicus. Later, Meer asks Sarah if there's been any word from Durandal, she says no, that he's busy right now. She also says there's a "rumor" that Archangel is at Copernicus, though she can't imagine why. Sarah also makes some very creepy comments about the "real" and "fake" Lacuses, and Meer looks like she's on the verge of a mental breakdown.

Kira, Athrun, Lacus and Meyrin leave the ship to go into the city. Neo asks Murrue if he'd like to go with her ashore as well and get some fresh air, but she says she'll stay on the ship. He asks if he can escort her around the ship, grabbing her by the waist and offering to take a bath with her! This was amusing, though a bit creepy... Murrue says that's not something Mu would've done, and I agree. I'm not happy that Mu's dramatic and important-for-Murrue's-development death has been retconned away... and though Neo acts more like Mu as time goes on, he's also still very much a different person. Yet he's hardly like the Neo we saw up to when he led the slaughter in Berlin. As soon as he was captured, it's like his brain switched to another personality. Not the original Neo, but not quite Mu. It's... just weird.

Lacus and Meyrin are shopping for clothes, with Kira and Athrun watching guard over them. In public. Where you'd think lots of people would recognize Lacus. This makes no sense, you'd think there'd be lots of admiring fans - or angry protestors - swarming her well-known face in public. Athrun notices someone following and watching them, and then Lacus's Haro is greeted by MEER'S Haro, recognized by Athrun, bearing a note for Lacus. It's a note from Meer, saying she's going to be killed and asking for help. They realize this is probably a trap, but if Meer's in trouble, they have to try to help her. Lacus would like to meet her.

They meet at an outdoor auditorium, with Sarah and a hit team hiding in the shadows. Athrun pulls a gun on Meer, though, saying he knows this is a trap, but he wants to give her one more chance. The others come out from hiding, Lacus greeting Meer. But Meer panics, saying SHE'S the real Lacus, because she's doing the right thing. Lacus tells Meer that she can have her name and her appearance, but they'll always be different people. However, Lacus gives her sympathetic words, and tells Meer that she mustn't let others use her dreams for their benefit. Birdy flies over Sarah and calls out - Athrun sees her and they all run for cover as Sarah and the hit team open fire. Meer's in a panic, and Lacus tries to keep her calm. Sarah gets injured by gunfire from Athrun and an exploding grenade, and Neo arrives on the scene in the Akatsuki to pick up Lacus and Meer and fly them back to the ship. However, Sarah is still alive and takes a shot at Lacus. Meer sees it and jumps to save her - and takes the bullet herself. Athrun guns down Sarah. As Meer dies in Lacus' arms, she asks her to remember her song and her life, and gives Lacus a picture of herself, as her real self, Meer Campbell. She tells the group that she wishes she could've met them properly, and then tells Lacus she's sorry, and dies. It's a tearful and tragic death, Athrun taking it the hardest of all.

They bring Meer's body back to the Archangel. They look through her personal effects and find a disc. It's her diary, detailing her life from when she was recruited and began her cosmetic and acting transformation into an impersonation of Lacus, her enthusiasm and her sincere belief that she's doing the right thing. Oh, and her crush on Athrun, of course, being his "fiancée." As they read her diary, Athrun gets troubled and leaves. They continue reading, and Meer writes about when Athrun defected from ZAFT, and she can't understand why he would. She believed that what she and Durandal were doing was right, but she got confused, scared, unsure of what to do except keep playing her role. Athrun feels guilty for not speaking up, telling Durandal that using Meer like that was wrong. The four of them return to Meer's body, and Lacus cries for her, the girl who tried to follow her dream and do what she thought was right, only to lose it all, including her life, in tragedy and murder. Lacus vows that she will always remember Meer.

Durandal broadcasts a speech around the Earth Sphere, talking about all the death and tragedy that's happened, that they "tried" to avoid. But the people responsible for it all, Logos, are now destroyed. Durandal announces that now they must fight another enemy, the one that has always been with humanity, the true source of its conflicts and suffering: its own ignorance and selfish ambitions, sewing the seeds of conflict in pursuit of endless desires. The public is shocked and confused, including Talia. He says the answer to all their problems is now in their hands, has been with humanity all along. He declares the initiation of the Destiny Plan, to ultimately transform the way the human race exists.

The Destiny Plan is activated, which apparently involves a computerized genome database. A scary computerized voice explains the Destiny Plan in a video presentation to the public (complete with cutesy SD cartoons of Durandal replacing Djibril behind an office desk), that the most advanced genetic engineering developed by the Coordinators will be used to enhance and improve the human condition to its fullest potential. Shinn's taken aback by this, and Rey says he shouldn't be surprised that this is the kind of world Durandal wants. Shinn says he doesn't think the world is ready for this yet. Rey says that it will happen, and it's their job to protect it. That's why Shinn was chosen to be the Destiny Gundam's pilot because he's stronger than anyone and has a powerful desire for the Chairman's desired world. Sounds to me like the Destiny will be used to destroy rebels and dissenters who refuse to take part in Durandel's new genetic world order. And, big surprise, we see Rey suffering from the same cloning defect health problems that Rau Le Creuset did, taking the same pills.

Meanwhile, Orb and the Kingdom of Scandinavia are the only nations that have rejected the Destiny Plan, but most of the other nations still haven't made a decision on it. Because of the anti-Logos conflicts, nearly every government on Earth is currently unstable. Cagalli thinks it was part of Durandal's plan. She vows to oppose Durandal and stand on Orb's principals of freedom and independence, that it will be the key to stopping this and saving humanity.

The Archangel and Eternal crews discuss their next move, and say Orb's military is on the defensive, knowing they'll be attacked for rejecting the Destiny Plan, and will have to fight back if it's forced on them. Durandal's plan will try to destroy people like them who want to pursue their own dreams and desires, so they agree they will have to fight to defend themselves.

So the Requiem at Daedalus Base is still operational... and ZAFT is moving the beam deflection colony sections into new positions. Durandal orders the Requiem charged up for firing.

The Atlantic Federation President Copland, who has been holed up with most of the remaining Earth Forces fleet at Arzachel Base, has requested to speak with Durandal. Durandal decides they'll fire Requiem at Arzachel first, and then take care of Orb next. Durandal says anyone who rejects the Destiny Plan is the enemy of humanity itself. Gotta love that "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.

The Earth Forces' fleet launches from Arzachel, and Minerva and the ZAFT fleet are ordered to intercept them. Rey and Shinn have a talk. Well, Rey does most of the talking. He tells Shinn to believe in the Chairman. And believe in the Chairman. Oh, and believe in the Chairman, too. He also says he won't be around much longer, because he was born with short telomeres (which I had to look up on the intrawebs to find out it basically means Rey's cellular chromosones are screwed) because he's a clone! GASP! Really?!?! I had no idea! Oh wait, yes I did. :P

The Requiem is fired at Arzachael and destroys the base, killing President Copland. Everyone sees it and is shocked. Murrue says with that shot, the Earth Alliance's remaining military power has been effectively wiped out. Lacus orders Murrue to warn Orb, and to link up with the Eternal. "If we don't comply, we face death. In any case, as it is, this world is doomed. There's nowhere to run." Well, if you're doomed, might as well go down fighting.

Durandal orders Shinn and Rey to come to Daedalus Base with their Gundams. Rey explains to Shinn that firing the Requiem was necessary, because there will be opposition to the Destiny Plan. They know Archangel will come for them, so they have to destroy it this time.

Eternal launches to join up with Archangel... and it has a sizeable little fleet with it! Basically the original Three Ships Alliance is back together, backed up by a fleet of Orb and Clyne Faction ZAFT ships. Archangel and Eternal move ahead to take out the first beam deflection colony section.

Durandal orders the Minerva and half the ZAFT lunar fleet to defend the 1st deflection colony section, called "Station 1," while the rest of the fleet defends Daedalus Base. Archangel and Eternal approach Station 1, deploy the METEORs for Kira & Athrun, and Lacus makes a broadcast announcement. She says they're going to destroy the useless weapon of mass destruction, and asks the ZAFT forces that if they have any pride left in their uniforms, they'll stay out of the way.

The ZAFT forces are temporarily confused - they don't know which Lacus is speaking to them. But the fleet commander says they're the remnants of Logos, so they open fire. The Archangel and Eternal fight their way through, and soon the Minerva and Yzak's team show up as well. Whose side will Yzak be on...?

Durandal talks to Rey and Shinn, and asks them to put an end to the current world. Rey agrees, saying all the right things, because he believes in the Chairman. Oh, did you know Rey also believes in the Chairman? Durandal asks Shinn if he also feels the same way.

Flashbacks as Rey explains his origin to Shinn. Rey, like Rau Le Creuset, is a clone of Mu La Flaga's father, created under contract so Dr. Whats-His-Name would have the funds to work on his Ultimate Coordinator Project, which created Kira Yamato. The older, earlier clone Rau cursed the fate of his short telomeres and failing health, and fought to destroy everything as he himself would be destroyed. Rey says that they're both products of the world they live in - people who fight and kill, because of the tragedies, like Shinn, have suffered - so they must end the current one and create a new one, where people like them won't be created, and that's why Shinn has to protect that future. Back to the present, Shinn says yes, he feels the same. *sigh*

Archangel launches its Murasames and Neo in the Akatsuki, the Eternal launches the DOM Trio (perhaps I should call them the Black Star trio :P ). Yzak decides to go out in his MS to join the battle. Talia orders the Impulse launched, and to engage the Archangel. For, y'know, the honor of ZAFT. 'Cause it's honorable to protect weapons of mass destruction, it would seem. *roll my eyes*

Lunamaria in the Impulse moves to attack Eternal, but she's seriously that doubting she's doing the right thing. Meyrin, aboard the Eternal, calls out for her to stop. Meyrin asks why she's fighting, but then Luna is attacked by the DOM trio. The Minerva arms its Tannhausen BFG to fire at Archangel. Murrue realizes if they move, Eternal will be hit so she doesn't order an evasion... the Minerva fires... and in a repeat of the Archangel vs. Dominion showdown from SEED, Neo arrives in the beam-deflecting-armored Akatsuki just in time to absorb the Minerva's shot! And this time, he survives! And it looks like he also gets more of his Mu memories back in this dramatic moment. He shoots and takes out the Minerva's Tannhausen. He calls the Archangel and tells Murrue he's never leaving her again, and when this is over, let's go home together. Murrue is happy. I kind of am too, despite my dislike of the whole Neo thing... :)

Yzak and Dearka face Athrun, but it's clear Dearka wants to help Athrun destroy Station 1. Hahaha, go Dearka! We've missed you buddy, and it's good to see you back fighting with the good guys. :D

Athrun and Kira use their METEORs to slice up Station 1, and the Messiah is floating over the lunar surface, approaching Daedalus Base. Archangel and Eternal turn to go attack Daedalus Base and the Requiem, theMinerva and ZAFT fleet in pursuit. Meanwhile, the Orb/Clyne Faction fleet is also en route to Daedalus. Rey tells Shinn that they have to destroy that fleet, if Orb destroys Requiem, the world will be divided again. Shinn asks about Orb, and Rey says he'll have to save Orb, as well as every other nation, that that's what it all boils down to. Question is.... will Shinn do it? He's had a grudge and even a desire to destroy Orb for a long time now...

The Messiah intercepts the Orb fleet... and arms its Neo-Genesis. Okay, seriously, what -is- it with one big scary superweapon after another in this series? SEED gave us a couple, but Destiny, true to the form it seems to have taken, beats tropes like a dead horse. Oh well... Durandel orders the Messiah's Neo-Genesis to fire on the Orb fleet, and it wipes out a lot of its ships. He then orders Destiny and Legend to be launched. They rush to intercept the Archangel and Eternal. It's Kira/Strike Freedom & Athrun/Infinite Justice vs. Shinn/Destiny and Rey/Legend all over again. (And, um, when did Durandal, and Shinn and Rey, move from Daedalus to Messiah? Must've been completely off-screen.)

Kira and Athrun want to go after Messiah to keep it from sinking the Archangel and Eternal, but Lacus says their priority should be destroying the Requiem, so it won't destroy Orb, that the world will be lost if Orb is destroyed. Yzak makes his decision and decides to guard the Eternal! Go Yzak! :D

Rey orders Shinn to join up with the Minerva and go after Athrun and the Archangel. Rey's got a jonesing for wanting to kill Kira. Kira can sense a "reflection," I guess, of Rau Le Creuset in Rey. Rey, for his part, seems to have partially taken on Rau's personality, maybe anger at his messed-up existence, which is partly related to Kira's existence? I don't know... Rey's attitude towards Kira is rather baffling.

Lunamaria runs into Athrun and they fight, and she wants to know why he took Meyrin with him. Athrun starts to put the hurt on Luna's Impulse, when Shinn arrives to protect her. Now it's Athrun vs. Shinn, Kira vs. Rey. Rey says he's Rau Le Creuset. Then we see a flashback of Rey asking Durandal where Rau is. Durandal says Rau is gone.... but Rey is -also- Rau - that it's his destiny. Huh?! Kira says we all only get one life, and that Rey's life is his own, not Rau's. Rey is stunned by these words, then Kira beam-spams and trashes the Legend.

Athrun tells Shinn to stop fighting with his mind stuck in the past, that no matter what he does, nothing is going to come back. This is the single smartest thing Athrun's ever said to him. Shinn loses it, and tries to go for the kill on Athrun, but Luna moves between them, telling them to stop fighting. Shinn starts to do his "shining finger" move - against Luna?! Well, he IS a whackjob... but Athrun blocks him. Athrun then slices off the Destiny's arms.

The Minerva is taking a serious pounding now, out-maneuvered by the Archangel, which takes down many of its weapons, and Athrun plows the Justice's flight pack thingie right through the Minerva's engines, and the ship crash-lands on the lunar surface.

The Messiah is about ready to fire its Neo-Genesis again at the Orb fleet attacking beam deflection Station 2. They've lost signals from both the Destiny and Legend. We see Rey in his cockpit, still alive. He flies his wreck of a Legend towards Messiah. Yzak gets a signal from Messiah and warns the Eternal to get their forces out of the line of fire. The Clyne Faction/Orb ships manage to get out of the way, but many of the ZAFT ships are blown up by the Neo-Genesis. Talia is outraged.

The Requiem is about to fire at Station 2 but Athrun and Neo manage to get past the beam barriers protecting it and fire away, blowing up the weapon. Yay!

Meanwhile, Shinn has a naked Newtype ghost communion moment with Stella. Stella says some weird, obscure stuff about "tomorrow" and she's been "given a yesterday" that makes absolutely no sense to me (maybe she's got memories of her pre-Extended life in the afterlife now?). But then Shinn wakes up in Luna's lap, their Gundams having crash-landed on the lunar surface. Luna is happy to see Shinn's alive. He sees the pillar of energy from the Requiem exploding and asks about it. Luna tells him the Requiem was taken out, and Orb wasn't hit. Shinn breaks down crying in Luna's arms. Is he crying because Durandal's plans have failed? Because he's failed? And now he's not going to get his long-sought revenge against Orb?

Kira takes the Freedom+METEOR past Messiah's barriers and starts damaging it heavily, taking down its millions of beam barriers. Archangel and Eternal show up and start firing on and damaging Messiah as well. Kira gets inside, and blasts away, causing explosions inside the Messiah control/throne room. Elsewhere, Talia orders her crew to abandon the werecked Minerva, that the battle is over. Murrue salutes the Minerva as the Archangel flies by it. Talia asks Arthur to look after the crew for her. She has to go do something.

Kira enters the wrecked Messiah control room and faces Durandal, who's somehow still alive, calmly sitting in his Emperor's throne. Kira and Durandal pull guns on each other, facing each other down. Durandal says if Kira kills him, the world will fall back into chaos. Kira says maybe, but it doesn't have to if they -choose- not to let it, because they live in a world where choices are allowed. He says people can learn to understand and change things. Rey has snuck in behind Kira but seems surprised by these words from Kira. Durandal accuses Kira of being arrogant, but Kira says he's the arrogant one, Kira is nothing more than a single human being, Ultimate Coordinator or not. He's no different from Lacus or anyone else. Then Talia comes into the room as well, also brandishing a gun. Durandal asks what will happen if he kills him and the world is thrown back into chaos. Kira says he will fight. Then a gunshot... and Durandal drops with a hole in his chest... shot by Rey! Rey then breaks down crying. I guess in the very end, he figured out that he could be himself, not Rau Le Creuset or whatever Durandal wanted him to be, and that the world Kira wants... is really the one Rey wants too? Talia is at Durandal's side, and she tells Kira to go... and tell Captain Ramius that she has a son, and asks that she visit him sometime. Kira leaves, and Durandal apologizes to Talia, but says he's happy. Talia says it can't be helped - it was destiny, for her and him. Talia calls Rey over, hugs him and tells him he did a good job. Rey calls her Mother.... Huh?!?! Mother??? And then the room blows up and they die. (Or so we believe. :P ) Kira escapes from Messiah in the Freedom and it blows up and falls to the lunar surface as the Orb/Lacus Clyne fleet, and Yzak & Dearka, and Shinn & Luna watch.

And... that's the end of Episode 50. Like SEED, Destiny ended rather abruptly. Unlike SEED, this ending... frankly left me cold. "Boom! Yay bad guys dead, we win! The end." Not any real emotional impact at all, unlike Kira's last words, "It's our world..." at the end of SEED left me in tears.

Well, never fear, for we also have FINAL PLUS! :D

I rather like the opening credits for Final Plus. A nice mix of previous material and some new stuff, with a pretty good song. The battle stuff has extra little bits added here and there, and some added bits of Durandal "talking to Rau le Creuset's ghost" across his chess board. And what was with that "ghost image" of Shinn when Athrun damaged the Destiny? I noticed they added a little bit of other stuff too to that scene, nothing major, but that particular thing really jumped out at me.

Otherwise, the stuff from most of the last episode or more is otherwise intact, though they added Athrun to the Mexican standoff scene in Durandal's throne room. All he does is burst in at the same time Rey is about to shoot Durandal. Athrun just says, "Rey," but doesn't say another word during the scene. It's otherwise completely unchanged, except that Athrun is also there and leaves with Kira. It's kind of a pointless change, but I guess it makes sense that Athrun would come in after Kira to back him up. Oh and Rey has a vision of Rau before the place blows up.

And we have about 10 minutes of new good stuff after the otherwise abrupt and unsatisfying end of Episode 50! Lacus calls the ZAFT fleet and asks for a cease-fire. All the ships sending up their "cease fire/retreat" flares at once is kinda pretty. Shinn is still crying in Luna's arms on the moon's surface, but then Athrun stops by to give them a lift in the Justice's hand.

The Orb Union and the PLANTs begin formal negotiations to end the war. At the request of the PLANTs Council, Lacus Clyne returns home to the PLANTs. Shinn, Athrun, Luna and Meyrin visit the cenotaph memorial site at Orb. Shinn lays a bouquet of flowers on the cenotaph - maybe now he believes they won't be blown away by someone else. Shinn says he hates this place even more (which doesn't make much sense to me). Then Kira and Lacus arrive as well to leave flowers. Athrun formally introduces Kira to Shinn. Shinn's surprised.. and Kira offers his hand in greetings. Shinn takes it. He's unsure of what to say, but Kira says no matter how bad things get, they can always plant more flowers. Athrun says that is the battle they will fight. Kira asks Shinn to come fight with them. Tearfully, Shinn agrees. The three couples (are Athrun and Meyrin a couple now...? I find that hard to believe) leave and go their separate ways.

Cagalli enters the Orb council chamber... and Lacus enters the PLANTs council chamber (perhaps as their new chairwoman?).

And life goes on... hopefully without so much death now. :)

I'm glad they made Final Plus, it's a -much- more satisfying end and gives a lot of closure to the main characters. And the two instances referring to flowers, when Shinn laid them on the cenotaph and I knew the significance of that, and when Kira said they can always plant more flowers, both those bits left me in tears. I'm not sure why, it just really hit me hard, emotionally. Yes, I cry at good movies and endings and scenes, I'm not ashamed to admit it. :P

A few miscellaneous items for the last round of episodes:

The Messiah control room, with Durandal's "throne" chair, and the shape of the big round viewscreen "window" behind it looks like a very deliberate nod to the Emperor's throne room on the Death Star in Return of the Jedi. :)

Neo/Mu does a Nu Gundam-style fin funnel omni-directional beam barrier thing with his DRAGOONs to protect both the Archangel and the Eternal! Pretty neat!

We get ONE more Murrue Ramius Stock Footage Bridge Battle Boobie Bounce! :D

And I like how the METEORs double as gun turrets on the Eternal.

Whew... well, it's been a heck of a ride, plowing through 100 (and change) episodes of Cosmic Era Gundam animation that I've never watched before. I've already praised SEED to no end in my other thread, and as for Destiny...

I'll just repeat what I was thinking and feeling in yesterday's review post. I think overall, Destiny is a good show, it's entertaining, and a worthy sequel to SEED. But ultimately, it's not as good as SEED, though I admire its ambitious story and the grand, epic stuff they really did with this. My complaints are mainly about the whacky characterization, especially later in the series, and the rather disjointed pacing of the plot at times. I think SEED is good, but in execution, it could've been better. With a more polished rewrite it might have even surpassed SEED in excellence. But... it doesn't quite cut it. Nonetheless, I enjoyed the series, even if I did get annoyed or pissed off at times. And I'll probably be watching it again fairly soon in dubbed English. :)

I'll be back to reply to some of you folks' replies and probably give some more detailed closing thoughts about Destiny over the next day or two. I'm also going to watch CE 73 Stargazer, and stick my nose in the various Astray manga and give you all my feedback on those as well - probably here in this thread, or I may start a different one for those, I'm not sure. (Opinions, mods?)

Until then...
Believe in the sign of Zeta!

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Chris wrote:There's no way that any government would be entirely evil, but SEED and GSD's writers go out of their way to depict them this way, so this clearly must be the message they wanted to send.
So, basically, you're saying that because the only characters we see are evil, all the ones we don't see must be evil, too? Despite the fact that, in Destiny especially, we hardly see any OMNI characters at all? (Other than Djibril, Neo, and the Extended trio, I couldn't name a single Earth Alliance character in Destiny.) I don't buy it. I think it's a major weakness of Destiny that it lacks any sympathetic or reasonable characters for one of its major factions, but I don't feel the need to compound it by assuming it's not there just because we're not shown it. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, and all that.
Burke Rukes wrote:The Atlantic Federation President Copland, who has been holed up with most of the remaining Earth Forces fleet at Arzachel Base, has requested to speak with Durandal. Durandal decides they'll fire Requiem at Arzachel first, and then take care of Orb next.
This solidified the fact that Durandal is a rat bastard for me, if I had any doubts remaining at this point. The guy is trying to talk to him, and Durandal decides to blow him up. OMNI had been decimated and Logos was gone -- who knows, maybe the guy wanted to talk ceasefire, now that the crazies pulling his strings were gone? Too bad, Durandal doesn't care. Even if Durandal legitimately believed that forcing the Destiny Plan on the world was the right thing to do, by killing the 'Lantie president, he's being evil even by the standards of his own stated goals.
Burke Rukes wrote:Eternal launches to join up with Archangel... and it has a sizeable little fleet with it! Basically the original Three Ships Alliance is back together, backed up by a fleet of Orb and Clyne Faction ZAFT ships.
It's been a while, but weren't there a handful of OMNI ships in there, too? I seem to recall the remnants of the Atlantic Federation fleet showing back up after their main force gets Requiem'd. Mainly for the purpose of getting Neo-GENESIS'd during the final battle. :roll: Guys never catch a break...

But then, it's possible that I'm confusing Orb ships for OMNI ships, especially given that I don't actually recall Orb having any warships in space other than the Kusanagi.
Burke Rukes wrote:Okay, seriously, what -is- it with one big scary superweapon after another in this series? SEED gave us a couple, but Destiny, true to the form it seems to have taken, beats tropes like a dead horse.
Man, you are gonna love season two of Gundam 00.
Burke Rukes wrote:Yzak makes his decision and decides to guard the Eternal! Go Yzak! :D
With the worst excuse ever -- claiming that the Eternal is still a ZAFT ship, despite being hijacked about three years ago. That line always makes me laugh.
Burke Rukes wrote:But then Shinn wakes up in Luna's lap, their Gundams having crash-landed on the lunar surface. Luna is happy to see Shinn's alive. He sees the pillar of energy from the Requiem exploding and asks about it. Luna tells him the Requiem was taken out, and Orb wasn't hit. Shinn breaks down crying in Luna's arms. Is he crying because Durandal's plans have failed? Because he's failed? And now he's not going to get his long-sought revenge against Orb?
One of the best scenes in the series, in my opinion. Shinn finally lets go and breaks down, instead of pretending to be strong and confident. I guess it's true, at least in his case, about having to hit rock bottom before you can start moving forward again. (Okay, there was also some catharsis at seeing Shinn finally get a well-deserved ass-kicking.)
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Well, its certainly been refreshing to see someone come in and watch Destiny with a untainted perspective. I suspect everyone's comments began to color your experience slightly towards the end, but that's how it goes, and the discussion has been very fair.

It's also made me feel sad all over again, looking at what Destiny could have been. Up until about episode 30 Destiny was on track to be a contender for best full length Gundam show (some disagree and said it went downhill starting with Kira's appearance in 13, but whatever). Sadly, it was not to be. Even still, the first time I watched it I got so wrapped up in the plot that I wasn't really bothered by the writing issues. I still think the overall story was awesome. Execution, however, gradually started to flounder after the midpoint. I rewatched the series a couple years ago, and some parts are pretty painful to sit through.

Anyways, further animated works in the Cosmic Era are unlikely at this point. It's a shame, because, as Stargazer proved, there's a lot of potential for interesting side stories and story expansions in CE. Who knows what the future holds, though.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:So, basically, you're saying that because the only characters we see are evil, all the ones we don't see must be evil, too? Despite the fact that, in Destiny especially, we hardly see any OMNI characters at all? (Other than Djibril, Neo, and the Extended trio, I couldn't name a single Earth Alliance character in Destiny.) I don't buy it. I think it's a major weakness of Destiny that it lacks any sympathetic or reasonable characters for one of its major factions, but I don't feel the need to compound it by assuming it's not there just because we're not shown it. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, and all that.
Unfortunately because we don't see them we could say they are all blue and seven feet tall with as much certainty as anything (...hyperbole...). SEED and Destiny leave us with the distinct impression that the majority of EA solders are, at the least, Blue Cosmos sympathizers.

To wit, the Strike Dagger pilots cockily jump into action eager to trash whatever "coordinator scum" they can find. After the battle of orb when the EA succeed in taking another mass driver, in a cut away scene we see an MP happen upon an injured ZAFT Pilot who is killed on the spot. A counsel of generals is pretty much eating out of the hand of the Blue Cosmos chairman (at least one of them calls Blue Cosmos Azreal's people). Then we have the rest of the war where other than Natarle and Flay -no one- seems particularly worried about nuking the plants into space dust.

Now onto Destiny, where we have the regular Federation Base using civilians as slave labor and preferring to kill them than let them escape. Then the Lohengrin gate where it was apparently so oppressive that the citizens celebrated their liberation by executing EA solders. It was also shown that the Atlantic Federation President was in Djibril's back pocket and implied there were even more such leaders. There were also apparently hundreds of solders willing to staff Heaven's and Daedalus Bases with the implication (from Djibril's running) that there were plenty more where they came from. The few times we see the Alliance working with the "good guys" a character from Orb was all we were shown and even then we never see a Windam acting with any degree of heroism.

I know it's an assumption that there are -no- good solders in the alliance but unless the authors make a point to prove otherwise it might as well be true from the audience's perspective.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:So, basically, you're saying that because the only characters we see are evil, all the ones we don't see must be evil, too? Despite the fact that, in Destiny especially, we hardly see any OMNI characters at all? (Other than Djibril, Neo, and the Extended trio, I couldn't name a single Earth Alliance character in Destiny.) I don't buy it. I think it's a major weakness of Destiny that it lacks any sympathetic or reasonable characters for one of its major factions, but I don't feel the need to compound it by assuming it's not there just because we're not shown it. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, and all that.
No, I'm saying that in a well-written series, this wouldn't be an issue, but clearly the writing staff of GSD wanted to portray the EA as utterly irredeemable. And yes, we do see characters from EA outside of Logos, such as those psychotic Windam pilots or those soldiers using slave labor in the Indian Ocean. Nothing in SEED or GSD gives me evidence to assume that the EA isn't rotten to the core, so in this case absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

For me, SEED Destiny took the characters I loved in SEED and trashed them silly. I wish I had never watched it.
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
Burke Rukes wrote:Yzak makes his decision and decides to guard the Eternal! Go Yzak! :D
With the worst excuse ever -- claiming that the Eternal is still a ZAFT ship, despite being hijacked about three years ago. That line always makes me laugh.
Yzak's excuse was pretty funny.

He's such a tsundere. "it's not like I wanted to save you or anything!"

Yeah, he has his silly pride, but it doesn't stop him from doing the right thing.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

Burke, first off, there is a longer ending/epilogue still to Seed Destiny Special Edition #4. Let's just say it's ironic given something Kira said to Athrun about ZAFT back in SEED's early episodes!

Also: SEED Destiny had an announced sequel film that never happened. Here's what was confirmed about it: "Although a plot was written, production did not go ahead on the Gundam SEED Destiny theatrical film. It would have been the first full-length film within the Gundam metaseries since Mobile Suit Gundam F91 (1991), but because of the delays, the Mobile Suit Gundam 00 movie instead held that mantle. This film was first announced on May 6, 2006, at the Sony Music Anime Fes' 06 with a brief clip featuring the characters Shinn Asuka, Cagalli Yula Athha, Lacus Clyne, Kira Yamato, and Athrun Zala. After the Sony Music Anime Fes' 06 Sunrise announced the film on their website.

In the March 2008 issue of Animage magazine Chiaki Morosawa explained that a plot outline had been created but she had fallen ill due to cancer and required continuous treatment. The project has been placed on an indefinite hiatus, with Morosawa asking that fans to continue to wait. Houko Kuwashima, seiyū of character Stella Loussier, has stated on her "SEED Club blog" that the character will somehow also have a role in the film. (This last bit of info is a spoiler to the added ending of Destiny SE#4, if that matters to you):
Spoiler
Lacus, Yzak Joule, and Dearka Elsman will return as members of the PLANT Supreme Council and Kira, Shinn, and Lunamaria Hawke will be part of the ZAFT military
."

I'm curious in retrospect to see what the movie would have been, and if it would have been a nice capstone to Cosmic Era, to make up for Destiny's unevenness. I heard that one of the creators stated he wanted it to be as memorable as "Char's Counterattack," but for CE. A piece that would always be remembered.

...Off the top of my head, the only plots I can think of that might make sense is some form of Athrun/fill-in-the-blank's Counterattack (based on the confusion of Destiny), something dealing with Talia's son, something dealing with the new technology introduced in Stargazer, or something to do with Al Da Flaga or Kira's scientist father. Hmm...
Burke Rukes wrote:Lunamaria comes to talk to Shinn, about her confusion over Meyrin and Athrun. She's still troubled, but she says not to worry about it, she knows Shinn was just following orders.
Kind of confirms in dialogue what I said about how she handled that situation and bonded a bit with Shinn rather than blaming him.
Burke Rukes wrote:They meet at an outdoor auditorium, with Sarah and a hit team hiding in the shadows. Athrun pulls a gun on Meer, though, saying he knows this is a trap, but he wants to give her one more chance...Birdy flies over Sarah and calls out - Athrun sees her and they all run for cover as Sarah and the hit team open fire. Meer's in a panic, and Lacus tries to keep her calm. Sarah gets injured by gunfire from Athrun and an exploding grenade, and Neo arrives on the scene in the Akatsuki to pick up Lacus and Meer and fly them back to the ship. However, Sarah is still alive and takes a shot at Lacus. Meer sees it and jumps to save her - and takes the bullet herself.
This scene was well done (one of the last few inspired moments) and had some punch to it. The diary information that followed was good too, but came too late given the amount of episodes they had to work with. The conflict following the announcement of Destiny Plan seemed awfully rushed to me. They needed more episodes for it to play out in a credible manner that didn't largely repeat the ending of SEED. Plus, the battles seem too one-sided, with the super-powered heroes saving the day.
Burke Rukes wrote:The Atlantic Federation President Copland, who has been holed up with most of the remaining Earth Forces fleet at Arzachel Base, has requested to speak with Durandal. Durandal decides they'll fire Requiem at Arzachel first, and then take care of Orb next. Durandal says anyone who rejects the Destiny Plan is the enemy of humanity itself. Gotta love that "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.
I had forgotten some of Durandal's final actions. Yeah, he meant well in his theories, making him a tragic villain, but by this point he really had let his ego and ambitions blind his morality to levels that are unforgivable. My bad. He's still an interesting character, though, taken as a whole, and it says something that his own pains and treatises for harmony would eventually drive him to such violence.
Burke Rukes wrote:Rey and Shinn have a talk. Well, Rey does most of the talking. He tells Shinn to believe in the Chairman. And believe in the Chairman. Oh, and believe in the Chairman, too. He also says he won't be around much longer, because he was born with short telomeres (which I had to look up on the intrawebs to find out it basically means Rey's cellular chromosones are screwed) because he's a clone!
I remember this moment being more balanced. More of Rey confiding in Shinn as a friend. Hmm...
Burke Rukes wrote:He calls the Archangel and tells Murrue he's never leaving her again, and when this is over, let's go home together. Murrue is happy. I kind of am too, despite my dislike of the whole Neo thing... :)
This is one of those things that's annoying, and yet touching. Hard to judge.
Burke Rukes wrote:Rey, for his part, seems to have partially taken on Rau's personality, maybe anger at his messed-up existence, which is partly related to Kira's existence? I don't know... Rey's attitude towards Kira is rather baffling.
This was Durandal's fault. Rey had a fatalistic view of himself because he was essentially and clone of a clone. Kira killing Rau was like Kira threatening his life. He wanted to prove that his life had some meaning, and killing Kira would do that. Rey was living as a Legend, a story that is exaggerated with both truth and lies, that serves as a warning (about free will and genetic manipulation).
Burke Rukes wrote:But then Shinn wakes up in Luna's lap, their Gundams having crash-landed on the lunar surface. Luna is happy to see Shinn's alive. He sees the pillar of energy from the Requiem exploding and asks about it. Luna tells him the Requiem was taken out, and Orb wasn't hit. Shinn breaks down crying in Luna's arms. Is he crying because Durandal's plans have failed? Because he's failed? And now he's not going to get his long-sought revenge against Orb?
This is a beautiful thing. This in a genuine and powerful moment, but you have to remember who Shinn is: A person seeking something to protect, something to fight to justify the lives lost in his life, and something to believe in. He put all of his faith in Durandal, even when he knew it was questionable, he wanted to believe it would be an answer to his desires. But on the path he has lost so many, and now has lost everything he put his life on the line for. He was willing to kill Luna in his rage and confusion a few moments earlier, to preserve his sense of purpose and not have to admit he was wrong, that he had betrayed his family, his sister, Stella, everyone and everything he fought for and wanted. He realizes here it was all a lie, all of the mistakes he's made and of the fact that he's going to have to HONESTLY face himself and the world now, without any easy solution. He has a mental breakdown basically in anguish from all the years he bottled up the pain and tried to project it on others. Now he has to project it on himself.
Burke Rukes wrote:Kira and Durandal pull guns on each other, facing each other down. Durandal says if Kira kills him, the world will fall back into chaos. Kira says maybe, but it doesn't have to if they -choose- not to let it, because they live in a world where choices are allowed...Then a gunshot... and Durandal drops with a hole in his chest... shot by Rey! Rey then breaks down crying. I guess in the very end, he figured out that he could be himself, not Rau Le Creuset or whatever Durandal wanted him to be, and that the world Kira wants... is really the one Rey wants too? Talia is at Durandal's side, and she tells Kira to go... and tell Captain Ramius that she has a son, and asks that she visit him sometime. Kira leaves, and Durandal apologizes to Talia, but says he's happy. Talia says it can't be helped - it was destiny, for her and him. Talia calls Rey over, hugs him and tells him he did a good job. Rey calls her Mother.... Huh?!?! Mother???
So much in one scene. So rushed, but so interesting. What is better, Durandal's "destiny" that leads to manufactured peace, or Kira's "freedom" that leads to chaos repeating. This is a central theme and one that we're left to ponder. It seems like there's an obvious answer, but there's more gray area than it seems. It may be that neither gets the result either person wants.

This whole son business! This was either bad writing, an attempt to reinforce the tragedy of Talia x Durandal, OR, as I see it, a plot thread left for the sequel (that never quite came to be, despite being written and publicly announced). I mean, why edit in Athrun to this final scene in FINAL PLUS with the message about the son if not for a future purpose. It's like when they edited out Mu's helmet to make way for Neo.

Rey has his epiphany moment from Kira's words here and in the battle, and his own haunted feelings that have guided him to his point, and he makes a shocking decision. Its somewhat chilling and powerful. I liked Rey, though. Fascinating character when you think about him from start to finish, IMO.

And Rey wasn't so crazy to believe Durandal. He saw him trying to protect Rau, and then he gave the pills to Rey to help him as well. He was a father to Rey, even if he used him in his plans. He accepted that, because it gave him purpose--a purpose greater than Rau, because it allowed for a future where he felt his and Rau's lives wouldn't have to be repeated.

As for the "mother" comment...this was the dysfunctional family that never was. Talia loved Durandal, Rey loved Durandal as a father, and Durandal likely confided his love for Talia to Rey, making her the mother he didn't have, and the would-be wife Durandal lost. This is a complex situation that only ep.29 FATES and a few snippets of episodes hint at, but it's interesting. It's likely that the Destiny Plan was a reaction to Durandal seeing the madness and suffering of Rau and of his inability to be married and have children with Talia, whom he loved (hence his jealousy of Kira and Lacus--who seem to have it all). Talia speaking of destiny means she to some extent feels fatalistic, too, and that they were cheated on the life they should have had, had they the courage to stand up to destiny.
Burke Rukes wrote:And... that's the end of Episode 50. Like SEED, Destiny ended rather abruptly. Unlike SEED, this ending... frankly left me cold. "Boom! Yay bad guys dead, we win! The end."
This ending is pretty bad, BUT I almost like it being more "open-ended" than Final Plus and SE#4...
Burke Rukes wrote:Shinn, Athrun, Luna and Meyrin visit the cenotaph memorial site at Orb. Shinn lays a bouquet of flowers on the cenotaph - maybe now he believes they won't be blown away by someone else. Shinn says he hates this place even more (which doesn't make much sense to me). Then Kira and Lacus arrive as well to leave flowers. Athrun formally introduces Kira to Shinn. Shinn's surprised.. and Kira offers his hand in greetings. Shinn takes it. He's unsure of what to say, but Kira says no matter how bad things get, they can always plant more flowers. Athrun says that is the battle they will fight. Kira asks Shinn to come fight with them. Tearfully, Shinn agrees. The three couples (are Athrun and Meyrin a couple now...? I find that hard to believe) leave and go their separate ways.
This is the scene of Final Plus that I really think was most worth seeing. It is poignant. Shinn says he hates the place even more because now he recognizes the hypocrisy within himself--that makes total sense. He's still battling the demons he was left with when he cried on the Moon that I detailed before.

As for Athrun and Meyrin...it's certainly made to look like they are a couple now (maybe there's more info in SE#4, about the Cagalli ring, I forget). But here...TOO BAD CAGALLI FANS! :P Whether it makes sense or not, I think it's sort of funny.
Burke Rukes wrote:I'll just repeat what I was thinking and feeling in yesterday's review post. I think overall, Destiny is a good show, it's entertaining, and a worthy sequel to SEED. But ultimately, it's not as good as SEED, though I admire its ambitious story and the grand, epic stuff they really did with this. My complaints are mainly about the whacky characterization, especially later in the series, and the rather disjointed pacing of the plot at times...With a more polished rewrite it might have even surpassed SEED in excellence. But... it doesn't quite cut it. Nonetheless, I enjoyed the series, even if I did get annoyed or pissed off at times.
About sums it up. It's not as terrible as people think when you look at it point by point. There are a good deal of highlights taken by themselves or in sectional bursts. It goes out of its way to be ambitious. It's just the latter parts leave something to be desired--something Gundam series have had trouble with as of late by my estimation. SEED and Destiny have moved up a bit in my mind because of later developments, but I can't talk about Gundam 00 yet...(Let's just say I felt Destiny, despite its execution problems, lived up to more of its "promises" than 00, despite having just as good of a setup and idea).

Anyway, with Destiny, I think the new characters and political/philosophical discussions, along with the scope of plot and several well-animated battles before stock footage and lack of creativity take over completely are its highlights. The overuse of stock footage, the overuse of SEED tropes, and the rushed pacing and false deaths, and the unbalanced use of SEED's original cast (particularly Cagalli and Kira) are its biggest detriments.

I see what Destiny was trying to do, connect us to Shinn and then show how a good character can become part of the "evil side," and have that contrast/clash with Kira. But they didn't have enough time to do it as strongly as they wanted, so that it looks like Kira comes in and dominates like some demi-god, and Shinn becomes a whipping boy. :( It's somewhat unfair treatment to the characters' journey...
Burke Rukes wrote:I'm also going to watch CE 73 Stargazer
Neat little series. :)
My Mecha/Scifi Novels: https://www.goodreads.com/series/168677 ... -war-arm-x
"May you rest in peace, the betrayed and outraged Milliardo Peacecraft."
Most-Wanted Gundam Anime: Episode Zero, Blue Destiny, Rise from the Ashes, Crossbone
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