Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed Destiny!

[mcred23]

Oh, seems like I got them mixed up. Because Atlantic Federation is always portrayed as evil, I always thought the base is somewhere near American continent, not in an island that logically should belong to Eurasian Federation or neutral Scandinavian Kingdom. But eh, they must have their own reason for choosing that site.

Don't forget that the Atlantic Federation has territory on both sides of the ocean, as they also include the British Isles (And Iceland ).

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

At this point is when Durandal and ZAFT lose any semblance of being the good guys of the series. They claimed when they started fighting that they were simply acting in self-defense (related question: why does a nation of space colonies build a trio of Gundams designed specifically for use on Earth if they're only interested in self defense?), but now they move the goalposts and claim that they're ridding the world of Logos. Durandal releasing the information on Logos is very obviously timed to give him maximum benefit. He's known about them for quite some time, but choose not to let anyone else know -- until doing so drives a large chunk of the Earth Alliance into siding with him. This is clearly not coincidental.

Durandal shows off his ultimate hypocrisy here. In the beginning of the series, when the Earth Alliance demands that ZAFT give them the men responsible for the Break the World incident and threaten to remove ZAFT's government if they don't, and this is rejected as a blatant attempt to destroy ZAFT. Then, 30-odd episodes later, Durandal tells the world that the Earth Alliance is actually run by a secret society, and unless these people are delivered to ZAFT, ZAFT will deal with them itself. So, apparently it's only okay to overthrow the governments of other nations if Durandal does it. Durandal also offers no proof for Logos' existence beyond his word, IIRC (while, by contrast, the Earth Alliance had photographic evidence of Break the World being perpetrated by ZAFT MS). For some reason, the people of Earth believe him anyway. (Would you believe the leader of an enemy nation if he told you that your country was actually ruled by a bunch of evil evil evil people while said enemy nation was in the middle of invading you? I wouldn't, but apparently CE's earthlings are not so picky.)

My favorite example of manufactured outrage in Destiny: the attack on Heaven's Base. ZAFT's orbital reinforcements are destroyed by Heaven's Base's giant anti-air beam cannon, and everyone reacts as if OMNI just murdered a crowd of innocent people. The fact that they had this beam cannon prepared in advance is treated as evidence of their evilness. They killed enemy soldiers attacking them! I don't expect ZAFT characters to be thrilled with their allies being killed, but defending oneself against an attacking enemy is hardly the epitome of evil. As a bonus, despite much being said about the fact that ZAFT's terrestrial forces are not enough to capture Heaven's Base by themselves, Heaven's Base still falls almost instantly despite the orbital forces being completely wiped out before they could participate in the battle. That's a hell of a plot hole right there.

There's been a lot said in this thread about how the Earth Alliance -- and the Atlantic Federation in particular -- is obviously irredeemably evil. I don't think that's fair. Everything we see, from the creation of the Extendeds to the original attack on the PLANTs, is perpetrated by Logos (and the unit that answers directly to them rather than existing in the normal chain of command, Phantom Pain). The average Earth Federation system has no idea that Logos even exists, much less what they're up to. Given the reaction we see when Durandal unveils their existence, I think we can safely say that the general populace would not have been supportive of them had they known anything about them earlier. Blaming the Atlantic Federation or the Earth Alliance in general for the actions of Logos and Phantom Pain specifically does not sit well with me. Recall that, with a single exception, ZAFT has been the aggressor for the entire series. I find it extremely difficult to condemn anyone for defending themselves against an invader.

[Chris]

There's been a lot said in this thread about how the Earth Alliance -- and the Atlantic Federation in particular -- is obviously irredeemably evil. I don't think that's fair.

How is it not fair? Between SEED and GSD, we're never shown any sympathetic characters in the Earth Alliance outside of the Archangel and Admiral Halberton. Pretty much every EA pilot we're shown or hear speak is presented as a raving, frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic waiting to kill Coordinators. Recall the scene in SEED when the Strike Dagger debuts in Panama, or in GSD the attempted nuclear attack on the PLANTs. This goes above and beyond what Logos/Phantom Pain do. Also, GSD seems to show that President Copeland of the Atlantic Federation is in the pocket of Logos, or at the very least subservient to their demands in some form. Given that Halberton is long dead and the Archangel long out of the EA by the time of GSD, the series presents literally no sympathetic EA characters.

[Deacon Blues]

There's been a lot said in this thread about how the Earth Alliance -- and the Atlantic Federation in particular -- is obviously irredeemably evil. I don't think that's fair.

How is it not fair? Between SEED and GSD, we're never shown any sympathetic characters in the Earth Alliance outside of the Archangel and Admiral Halberton. Pretty much every EA pilot we're shown or hear speak is presented as a raving, frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic waiting to kill Coordinators. Recall the scene in SEED when the Strike Dagger debuts in Panama, or in GSD the attempted nuclear attack on the PLANTs. This goes above and beyond what Logos/Phantom Pain do. Also, GSD seems to show that President Copeland of the Atlantic Federation is in the pocket of Logos, or at the very least subservient to their demands in some form. Given that Halberton is long dead and the Archangel long out of the EA by the time of GSD, the series presents literally no sympathetic EA characters.

*cough*sidestorycharacters*cough*

[Dark Duel]

I feel I should also point out that the frontline base depicted early on in Seed Destiny(I forget which episode exactly) was NOT a Phantom Pain installation but manned by regular EA forces; they used civilians as slave labor in the construction and gunned down the ones that attempted to escape.

So no, "Everything we see" in the series is in fact NOT perpetrated solely by Logos or Phantom Pain; most of it is, but not everything.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

The guys at Artemis were a bunch of jerks as well. If that Development hell SEED movie ever does get made, I can practically guarantee that the bad guys will be the Earth Alliance, or some branch of the Earth Alliance.

Spoiler

It won't be ZAFT, not with Kira and Lacus at the helm and it won't be ORB, not with Cagalli, Athrun, Murrue, Mu, and everyone else there.

As for Shinn and Lunamaria... I still think it's weird and at this point in the series I can't believe anything the characters do anymore.

[AmuroNT1]

*cough*sidestorycharacters*cough*

And of course, even there the really sympathetic ones like Ed Harrelson and Jane Houston jump ship, while the ones who are "just doing my job" types like Rena Imelia and Morgan Chevalier stick with the Alliance. It's like the entrance exam for the Alliance includes "Eat this puppy!"

[Burke Rukes]

Here we go, with my review and comments for Episodes 41 thru 45. I gotta warn you all, and I partly blame most of you, because I'm really starting to see a lot of little flaws in this series. I've been slowly picking up on them, but many of the posts in this thread have helped to point out others and make me see things I wasn't seeing before. I'm going to be a little bitchy in this round. You've been warned.

Episode 41 is a recap episode, narrated from Athrun's and Shinn's points of view. Pretty pointless.

Returning to our regularly scheduled program, Murrue sets Neo free on a quiet corner of Onogoro Island, giving him a Skygrasper to use as he wants. Murrue's eyes are wet with tears and she turns her back. Neo is confused, and looks concerned for her. Murrue asks if he's really not Mu, but he has no answer. Ummm, while I really want to feel for Murrue and what she's going through... and while all evidence points to Neo actually being a brainwashed/reprogrammed Mu... why is she cutting him loose and giving him an armed fighter plane? For starters... HE'S A BRAINWASHED/REPROGRAMMED Mu! He's not entirely the same guy you fell in love with, Murrue! Oh, and did you forget that he was in charge of the Earth Forces that invaded and destroyed three Eurasian cities, killing who knows how many innocent civilians? And you're cutting this guy LOOSE because he MIGHT be your old flame? *sigh*

I love Murrue, she's an awesome captain. And she's totally hot. But given this, and the other weird character stuff going on lately in this series... what the heck happened to the writers? Seriously...

Athrun asks Meyrin to leave the Archangel before it takes off, since it'll be fighting ZAFT. He apologizes for dragging her into this, but she doesn't want to be left behind. This girl's got a crush big on Athrun, doesn't she?

Archangel launches, and the Minerva joins the battle, while Shinn's Destiny battle Cagalli's Akatsuki and the Murasames. Shinn starts putting the hurt on Cagalli, when - big surprise - Kira swoops down in the Strike Freedom to the rescue and battles Shinn now. Oh, and tagging along is yet another new salmon-red Aegis-y/Justice-y Gundam, currently piloted by Lacus (*blinks in surprise*). Must be for Athrun. Guess they figured he might be back on their side someday, huh?

And aside from the repetitive stock footage, which I can live with... they keep reusing the same cheezy tropes over and over. Kira constantly swooping in at the last second to save an ally's bacon. Doesn't anyone -else- do this? Okay, Athrun occasionally does this when Kira gets in trouble (assuming that he and Kira aren't fighting this week). But seriously, when's the last time anyone remembers when a not-main-hero pilot saves a main hero pilot? It happened lots in other Gundam shows. Before starting SEED, I watched Zeta, and I couldn't tell you how many times Kamille was in trouble, and a far-less-effective pilot like Katz or Fa at least managed to swoop in and provide a distraction so he could get out of his fix. I get that Kira and Athrun are supposed to essentially be "super-heroes" in this series, but this is getting a bit tiresome.

Kira tells Cagalli to get back to Orb's defense HQ while he handles Shinn/Destiny and tells Murrue to take in Lacus/Infinite Justice. The Minerva then intercepts the Archangel, kicking off a pretty fun ship-vs-ship battle. A trio of DOM Troopers land and start fighting the ZAFT forces, even doing the classic Jet-Stream Attack from First Gundam! Say what you want about cheezy homages and ripoffs, this had me grinning from ear to ear. Lacus informs Murrue that the DOM Troopers are allies. However, this is the only episode we see the three DOM pilots in - I hope we see them again. I feel like there's a fun story waiting to be told about these three.

During the battle, Rey calls the Minerva bridge and tells Talia that Shinn needs to come back in for maintenance and resupply. If they're going to have any chance of winning this battle, they have to destroy the Strike Freedom. Okay, so the Destiny's battery is getting low... I'd have thought that it and the Legend would be nuclear-powered like Freedom (and I assume Strike Freedom also) and Justice? Why is Rey calling him back to the ship for that? Don't they have that deutronium beam thingie to instant-recharge a Gundam's battery remotely anymore? This seems like a big technical plot detail oversight to me.

Meyrin helps injured Athrun get to the Archangel's hangar, where they look at the Infinite Justice Gundam. Lacus comes in, and Athrun asks if the new Gundam is for him. She says yes, if he chooses to. Lacus explains that Athrun is more than a soldier, he's Athrun, and that's all there is to it.

Cagalli enters the Orb defense HQ control room, where a beaten and bruised Yuna is tied up and held prisoner. He whines and says he tried to do his best while she was gone... but she just punches him hard. YEAH!!!! Cagalli admits she's just as much at fault as he is. She demands to know where Djibril is, but he doesn't know. She orders Yuna taken away, and for their forces to push the ZAFT invaders back, and hopefully force a cease-fire.

Djibril is making yet another escape, escorted by some Orb soldiers. Okay, I have to point out another "wtf" thing here. The Orb military works for and answers to their own chain of command and the Orb government. Djibril is just a guest, they don't work for him or follow his orders. If Cagalli (now firmly back in charge of the government and military) wants Djibril arrested... why don't they just call those soldiers escorting him? Don't they have radios or cell phones or something? This seems like a badly thought out arrangement that allows Djibril to make his getaway.

Archangel and Minerva continue to slug it out, when Neo comes flying in with the Skygrasper and shoots down some of Minerva's missiles! He apologizes to Murrue for getting in the way, but he has a thing against the Minerva. He adds that they'll win, because he has "a knack for making the impossible possible." Yeah... he's soooooo Mu La Flaga. But what the heck happened to him?! AND WHY DID MURRUE SET HIM LOOSE? Grrr...! Anyway, Neo's Skygrasper (I refuse to call him Mu at this point) scores a good hit on the Minerva, but takes damage as well. He asks to land back on the Archangel. As he does, he starts remembering bits of his old memories as Mu...

The Destiny is recharged and Shinn re-launches, joined by Rey in the Legend. Athrun makes his own decision, and despite his injuries, he launches in the Infinite Justice to join the battle. Shinn and Rey try to shoot down Kira, and things start to look a bit desparate for Kira when Athrun swoops in and saves him (since he's the only one allowed to do this in this series ), and calls Shinn, tries to tell him to stop. Shinn's surprised to see Athrun's still alive. Athrun asks if destroying Orb and one enemy after another is what he -really- wants. Shinn, as usual, is incapable of listening or reason.

Alright, another pause here to complain about another trope horse that's getting beaten to death in this series. The whole "I thought you were dead" thing. SEED used it a -few- times and used it well. Destiny is abusing it. I'm tired of it at this point. And before I move on, if you're a Babylon 5 fan like me, you know the proper response to "I thought you were dead" is "I was. I'm better now."

Yuna is being taken to a shelter for holding when he tries to make a break for it. He's summarily squashed like the bug he is by the falling wreck of a GOUF. Good riddance, you sniveling, slimey clown!

Djibril's waiting in a shuttle to take off, which is also supposed to be carrying Prime Minister Seiran and Yuna. They're late. Well, we know why Yuna's late, but what happened to his father? Did I miss something? (I probably did, it took me a while to watch this round of 5 episodes, lots of interruptions and pausing 'cause of stuff going on.) Anyway, Djibril wants to take off now and get to the moon, telling the Orb military guys escorting him that the Seirans don't matter. Way to treat your allies/hosts, dirtbag.

The Minerva gets on Archangel's tail, but Murrue orders their ship to submerge, which I guess the Minerva can't do. The Archangel sinks some ZAFT submarines, and Minerva loses contact with the ZAFT flagship (one of the subs?). Shinn and Athrun fight each other in seed mode, with Athrun damaging Shinn's Destiny. The shuttle carrying Djibril takes off, and Talia and Cagalli both order an interception and shoot-down. Lunamaria gets to it first, but she's unable to hit it, and Djibril escapes into space. With the purpose of their invasion now gone, Talia takes command of the task force and orders a retreat. Athrun passes out from his injuries and his Justice starts to fall, but Kira saves him and brings him back to Archangel.

I gotta say, this was a pretty fun battle. The Minerva and Archangel going head-to-head and slugging it out was especially entertaining! The mobile suit combat, though, it starting to feel rather tiresome this late in the series. Once in a while we see a neat little trick or bit here and there, but for the most part, like SEED, the MS battles are just rearrangements of the same stock footage shots.

Talia reports their failure to Durandal, telling him that the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice were in their way, plus they had no proof that Djibril was even in Orb, and it was turning into a battle of attrition. Durandal says her decision was appropriate, that he'll look into the shuttle that got away, and that maybe they need to find a "different way to negotiate" with Orb. I guess he thinks "negotiation" is a euphemism for "military invasion with lots of killing of innocent strangers because you won't hand over a criminal." Gee, the hypocrisy of this man, who faced a nuclear invasion from the Earth Forces when -he- wouldn't (or rather, couldn't) hand over criminals who dropped a colony on Earth...

Murrue visits Neo, who recites his (perceived) personal history, but says now he's not too sure of his memories. He feels that he definitely knows Murrue, and that's why he couldn't just fly off. He asks to stay by Murrue's side. She nods and they hug. Awwwww, how sweet! I sort of felt happy for Murrue except... NEO IS A WAR CRIMINAL! *sigh* I'm not letting this one go, folks. This is really ticking me off. Mu La Flaga's death was tragic and dramatic and had a big effect on Murrue (and us, the viewers)... and now this whole thing with Neo and her reaction to it... just feels both cheap and badly written and just flat-out wrong.

Meyrin, Kira and Lacus are visiting Athrun in sickbay, when Kira turns on the TV, because Cagalli is making a broadcast speech. Cagalli starts to give her statement, expressing her doubts about Durandal's words and motives--

And her broadcast is interrupted by Meer Campbell posing as Lacus Clyne. Not-Lacus starts to give her own speech, asking why a friendly nation with ties to the PLANTs would harbor Djibril, a racist madman who uses nuclear weapons and brutalized children as weapons, etc. The real Lacus says it's alright, she knows what to do. She goes with Kira in the Strike Freedom to the Orb government council building. Meer continues to verbally attack Orb and Logos--

And HER broadcast is interrupted by the real Lacus, standing next to Cagalli, who says don't be deceived by the appearance of that other person, SHE'S Lacus Clyne. Durandal is taken aback, not knowing what she's doing in Orb. I guess he thought she was still out in space, possibly on the Eternal. The real Lacus says she fought alongside the Archangel in the previous war, and now is with Orb. Much confusion is abound among the ZAFT viewers, with Meer looking like a deer caught in the headlights, looking at her script. Lacus says she doesn't support Durandal. Durandel orders Meer's broadcast cancelled, otherwise they'd be playing right into Lacus' and Cagalli's hands.

Lacus continues her speech, asking that everyone not get caught in the trap of Durandal's words, when he claims that the only ones to blame are Logos. Lacus says she doesn't support Djibril, and neither does she trust Durandal, and they must gain a deeper understanding of his true motives. Durandel is not happy, and neither is Djibril, who watches the broadcast from the Earth Forces' Daedalus Base on the moon.

Meer goes to see Durandal and apologies, looking very worried (quite possibly that he'll kill her now that her cover may be blown). But he says it's alright, it's not her fault, what happened was unexpected. Durandal thanks Meer for her service, tellign her she should stay out of the public eye for a while, that he'll make sure she's well taken care of. Riiiiiiight... Meer spends the next couple of episodes moping and worrying at the lunar city of Copernicus. Meanwhile, the public is confused now, unsure of which Lacus is real and who to believe. We also get a brief scene in that town next to Lohengrin Hill, where that little resistance fighter girl tells the crowd that the ZAFT forces aren't bad guys, that the bad ones are Logos and the Alliance, and that Orb is siding with the bad guys. It looks like things are a mess all over...

Durandal leaves Earth on a shuttle for ZAFT's mobile space fortress Messiah, and orders the Minerva to go to Carpentaria and also launch into space and join with ZAFT's Lunar Fleet.

Shinn and Lunamaria ask Rey about the two Lacus's, and Lunamaria remembers the meeting between Athrun, Kira, Cagalli and Mirialla where she heard about the real one almost being killed and Kira asking about the imposter on TV. Rey brushes it off, saying the enemy did this to cause confusion. During this scene we see flashback clips of Rau Le Creuset getting shot, losing his mask, and young Rey with Rau and Durandal - I wonder what this means? Anyway, Rey says the Chairman is right, and that's good enough for him. Gotta love that "my country, right or wrong" mentality... sigh. Rey says what's important now is Athrun, who's piloting the new Infinite Justice and is with the Archangel. Luna is surprised to hear this, and hopes Meyrin is alive, too. Shinn is anguished and confused, remembering when he thought he killed them.

At Daedalus Base, the Earth Forces are preparing to fire their new lunar-based super-weapon, called Requiem. Meanwhile, the gutted hull of an O'Neill type space colony is being moved towards the PLANTs, and Yzak and Dearka's team intercepts it, thinking it's a colony collision attack. The Requiem weapon is fired... the target is the capitol PLANT of Aprilius! The beam is bent and deflected through several O'Neill colony hulls and destroys several PLANTs, but misses Aprilius, because Yzak's team managed to deflect the final colony "aiming" deflection piece a bit during the battle.

Everyone's horrified by what's happened, the loss of life is tremendous. I have to admit, while the weapon and the scenes of the colonies being destroyed and people blown out into space were horrific... emotionally I just didn't "feel" it as much, because by this point in Destiny, the whole "oh look another superweapon of mass destruction" card has been played so many times.

Yzak's team destroys the one beam deflection colony section near the PLANTS, but on the Minerva, Rey figures out what happened and realizes the weapon on the Moon can hit anything from any angle in the Earth sphere, with enough beam deflection sections. Rey says this is all because Djibril got away from Orb. The Minerva's now equipped with boosters and takes off back into space.

Alright, here's a big "a-ha!" scene on the Archangel, which I ate up and really enjoyed. The gang is on the bridge, discussing Durandal's motives. Lacus says they can't seem to escape this cycle of being fired upon and firing back, over and over (and neither can we, the viewers ). People want to live happy lives, but think the only way to achieve that is through fighting. She thinks Durandal wants to show everyone a new solution to this problem: a world without conflict, through his "Destiny Plan," where everyone's life is pre-determined by the genes they're given, with undesirable traits are weeded out or adjusted. Athrun says it would be a peaceful world without worry or suffering, but without choice, people will not free to live the lives they choose. Kira says it's the ultimate destination for Coordinators - manipulating the genome to try to improve themselves. Lacus says that in such a world, battle would be meaningless, if your "destiny" is already decided based on your genes - there's no point in struggling to be something you're not. The group thinks that Durandal, in his new "destiny" world order, would probably set himself up as a high priest of sorts. Kira asks Athrun to come to space with him, to stop Durandal. "We can't let destiny decide our future for us." Good stuff.

While the PLANTs are in a panic and trying to do evacuations, not knowing when the next attack is coming, ZAFT's lunar fleet moves to attack Faure, the first beam deflection colony section for the Requiem weapon. The Earth Forces at their two lunar bases, Daedalus and Arzachel, launch their fleets to intercept ZAFT. Meanwhile, the Minerva is ordered to launch a sneak attack on the Requiem weapon itself. Talia gets the orders and acknowledges that it'll be difficult, but they have no choice but to do it. We also see a very brief flash of a slightly younger Talia, with what seems to be her son... looks like she had that child she wanted. I wonder where her son is now?

Djibril impatient to wipe out Aprilius and the rest of the PLANTs. "History will be corrected in a matter of hours!" he says. As the Requiem recharges for its next firing, Rey works up a plan for the Minerva and its Gundams to take out Requiem. Lunamaria's part is the critical key and she cannot fail. Shinn and Luna have another one of their weird huggy moments before they take off. What is up with this? It's not... bad but it just doesn't feel -right-. Anyway... Shinn promises to protect her and everyone else, and they take off. Minerva draws out the Daedalus base's MS defenses, Shinn and Rey keeping them busy while Luna in the Impulse manages to break into the base's interior. Durandal orders the battle to be broadcast to the PLANTs public, to let them see that it's going to be alright - and to see the dawn of their new "destiny."

Daedalus base launches... dunh-dunh-DUNH, a few more of those big, bad Destroy Gundams. And they're quickly taken out by Rey and Shinn. Seriously, the big scary superweapon that Stella originally piloted has become small fry at this point - it's rather sad. Or bad writing. Anyway, the Daedalus is about to fire again, but the ZAFT fleet has damaged Faure, which means the Daedalus won't be able to hit the PLANTs. Djibril says to fire anyway, that the blast will take out the ZAFT fleet. He then quietly tells the Earth Forces' base commander that they can leave the base to surrender while he sneaks off to Arzachel. As long as he's alive, he says, there are alternatives. So there goes Djibril again - sneaking off and abandoning allies like he did at Heavens Base and Orb just to save his own skin and resume his machinations elsewhere. What a wonderful human being.

Shinn and Luna both get inside Daedalus now and blast away, destroying the Requiem before it can fire and blowing up lots of the base. Djibril is making his escape on the Gertye Lue... and is promptly killed when Rey destroys the ship with his Legend's DRAGOONs. Durandal is happy, and says, "Thank you, Djibril. And goodbye." I wonder what, exactly, he's thanking him for? For ultimately being an unwitting puppet in Durandal's long-term schemes, perhaps?

The Archangel is preparing to leave Earth and pursue Durandal. Kira and Athrun talk about hopes and dreams, the desire to keep moving forward, and how such a way of living would be impossible in the world Durandal wants to create. It's how humanity has been able to survive, despite all the problems - people keep struggling to find their hopes and dreams. Kira wishes that everyone's dreams could be the same, but Athrun - thinking of Shinn - says they already are, it's just most people don't realize it yet. I think this is very profound - particularly in how all 3 of them - Athrun, Kira and Shinn - all want the same thing, an end to the fighting and wars and senseless death, to be able to protect their loved ones. This was a nice little scene.

Cagalli gives a speech to the Archangel crew before they take off, saying that they don't know the situation on the Moon yet, and despite the destruction of several PLANTs, Durandal is currently the most powerful leader in the world. However, nations like Orb fear his power, and that's why Orb's vision of world peace can only be attained through freedom and independence, and that they will not choose submission or subordination. Right on, Cagalli! I agree 100%! She hopes the Archangel will be able to help protect those beliefs. Athrun notices she's not wearing the ring during this speech...

Murrue announces that the Archangel is going to Copernicus to gather information. Cagalli asks "Captain Roanoke" (who got a haircut, I see) to take care of her Akatsuki. Ummm... Cagalli... WAR CRIMINAL! BRAINWASHED ENEMY! *sigh* Anyway... Cagalli leaves the dock, since she's not going with them, her duties as leader of Orb requiring her to stay home. Meyrin is back in pigtails (I think she looks much prettier with her hair down) and a ZAFT uniform, and is going with the Archangel. Cagalli asks Meyrin to take care of Athrun for her, then she leaves, tears in her eyes. The Archangel then launches, Cagalli and Kisaka saluting as it takes off.

Whew... a LOT of stuff happening in these 5 episodes! I have to say, though, at this point in the series, Destiny feels like a disjointed mix of some great scenes, great dialogue, and occasionally great MS battles (when they're not abusing the stock footage too much), and overall, I'm still very much enjoying the "big picture" plot. However, the series has some serious flaws, too. Some minor plot points that are overlooked or handled badly, characterizations that feel weird or completely off the mark at times... I dunno. I still have 7-and-a-half more episodes to go, and I'll wait until the end to make my final judgment on Destiny.

A couple of miscellaneous items for these episodes I wanted to also talk about:

Regarding Shinn's Destiny Gundam, I've noticed it seems to do a funky "after-image" thing sort of like the F91. And its big energy "wings" when it flies feel like an homage to Turn-A's moonlight butterfly wings... perhaps a hint that it, in its own way, is a weapon of mass destruction? Hmm.... *ponders*

And in relation to a previous post by LightningCount regarding the relationship of the Gundam names with their pilots and their personalities/roles in the series, I had a thought occur to me today, in regards to the Legend Gundam. The numbers in its model number are 666 - the so-called "Mark of the Beast." I think the "mark" could be DNA... and the "beast" is Rau Le Creuset. That is, if Rey Za Burrell is indeed a clone of Rau Le Creuset. I'm still not sure how the name "Legend" plays into Rey's personality or role, aside from the maybe-Rau's-clone thing, Rey being a "living legend" genetic namesake of an unforgettable super-villain. But I could be way off the mark on this. I have 7.5 more episodes to find out.

Oh, and just to let everyone know, I've also recently purchased copies of the various English-translated Astray manga (though I'm missing volume 4 of Astray R), and I plan to read them, as well as watch CE 73 Stargazer, after I wrap up Destiny Final Plus. I'll do that in the interim to give myself a break before I dive into 00.

[reeoyuy]

Well, all member of Phantom Pain can be classified as war criminal because they specialized in treaty-breaking black ops, like Girty Lue use of Mirage Colloid back in early episode was already a breach of post-war Junius treaty. Of course being their ace, Neo committed many war crimes but deep down he's not a twisted maniac like Rau. He's just a loyal soldier doing dirty things that he ordered to. And add that with the fact the he's amnesiac and brain washed.

[Sume Gai]

Even if a solder is following orders that does -not- excuse them from committing war crimes. Solders have the right and indeed the prerogative to disobey illegal or immoral orders. I might be willing to tolerate Neo if perhaps he'd shown some degree of remorse over his actions but the series essentially lets him off scott-free from here on.

Regarding the Destiny's power-source yes it is indeed nuclear however it doesn't draw power directly from the nuclear reactor. Instead said power is stored as "Deuterion" and then used by the suit (supposedly this is a work around to that no nuclear powered MS agreement). In theory this means that the Destiny still has unlimited power however it's systems, especially the Voltaire Lumiere (Wings of Light) drain power faster than it is produced.

The after images the Destiny leaves behind are another function of CE's developing "super particle" Mirrage Colloid.

[E08]

Andy mentions the Terminal again - what the heck is the Terminal?

"Thank you, Djibril. And goodbye." I wonder what, exactly, he's thanking him for? For ultimately being an unwitting puppet in Durandal's long-term schemes, perhaps?

According to chinese fan translation of the PG strike freedom manual, it is an organisation created throught the reorganisation of the clyne faction after the 1st war. The reorganisation happens as the group is worried about the activities of logos(how did they know about them?), blue cosmos and another war between earth and plant. They plan to intervene in the fighting and bring about peace. MG inifinite justice manual adds that the group is actually a merger of clyne faction and another group (implied to be a Natural group) that is suspicious of the EA and (earth?) financial/political leaders.

As you will see later, the thanks is for more than that....

to produce something like the Strike Freedom with the Freedom still around is rather puzzling in plot terms

Well, the PG did state that Terminal stole SF and modify it as they feel freedom may not be enough to match the latest MS advancement.

There seems to be some bad intel going on here. Nobody knew about this Nibelung thing, really? Oh well.

Destiny MSV tried to fix that by having the ZAFT's higher-up suspicious about hidden weapon on the base. So when the invasion begins, they put in a recon team to search for such weapon. Unfortunately, although the team did discover Nibelung, they are destroyed by the guard units present before they can transmit the info back.

[AmuroNT1]

Alright, let's see here...

I'm actually kinda sad to hear you say that you're starting to get cynical about this show. Seeing the enjoyment you got out of Seed was pretty refreshing, and now you're going through the same disappointment that most of us did when we saw Destiny.

As for Neo, trust me when I say you're far from the only one to express shock and/or outrage at the casual way in which his actions as Roanoke are dismissed because "Mu's back!" At least in my circle, we use the name "Butcher of Berlin" to refer to both Neo himself as well as this handwaving.

In fairness to Lacus, she herself says she wasn't piloting Justice, just "riding" it down to Earth for Athrun. On the other hand, video games like Alliance vs ZAFT 2 and Dynasty Warriors Gundam have used this as justification to make her a full-fledged pilot...

I have to agree, they really do milk the Big Damn Heroes thing a little too much in regards to Kira swooping in at the perfect moment to save his friends (or Athrun sweeping in to save Kira).

As for the DOM pilots...don't get your hopes up. There's no deeper story or background for these guys, other than being stand-ins for the Black Tri-Stars with the added "bonus" of being fanatical devotees of Lacus. There's a reason these three are pretty well universally reviled by people on all sides of the Destiny debate.

Destiny running out of battery was actually acknowledged as a plot hole, for what it's worth; the Special Edition movies change this scene around to remove the low power warning, meaning Shinn returned for repairs and resupply. And yes, they pretty much have forgotten the Deuterion Beam Recharge System.

Regarding Lacus's "You are you" speech to Athrun...well, let's just say you might want to remember it for the ending. That's all I'll say.

The whole invasion of Orb bugs me for quite a few reasons, not entirely centered on Durandal and ZAFT. They made it very clear that they didn't want a fight, just Djibril; Orb fought back because the Seirans, who are in tight with Djibril, were in charge. But when Cagalli takes over, nobody stops fighting. I believe she orders some people to find the skunk, but still, did she not think to send a message to ZAFT saying "The Logos loyalists have been arrested, we're trying to find Djibril so please discontinue combat"? In this situation both sides should be focusing on the obvious enemy but instead they tangle with each other long enough for him to get away, which as you saw leads to countless innocent civilians getting killed by Requiem.

(And while I could rag on Luna for not making the shot, that horse is already so far beyond beaten that it's pretty well horse pudding. )

Let's be fair to Durandal, even if he knew who the Break the World terrorists were, he couldn't hand them over because they all got killed in the drop operation. And even if he could have, do you really think that would stop the Blue Cosmos-controlled Alliance from using it as pretext to try and kill off the "space monsters" as they so lovingly refer to Coordinators?

The sequence of TV interrupts reminds me of a gag from the comic review show Atop the Fourth Wall, where one comic did a similar sequence of stacked "we have you surrounded" moments, complete with an increasingly higher-pitched musical sting for each one.

On the subject of the Requiem battle, a Japanese fan made a hilarious photo-comic where Yzak and Dearka run around taking out the redirecting stations, only for Djibril to use a different one. In the end countless Coordinators are dead, Dearka says "Maybe we should just take out the first one", Yzak yells "WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?!", and Durandal calls them both idiots. Favorite moment has to be Djibril rapid-firing the trigger and Yzak yelling "STOP THAT!!"

I was always bothered by the way the Destiny Plan was painted by some (predominantly those who think ZAFT is nothing but evil), but this might just be a function of my lousy memory. I thought that the idea was simply that they would map peoples' genes before birth, see what they would be good at, and then steer them in that direction; for example, someone with good intelligence and people skills would be groomed to be a CEO, and that sort of thing. I didn't think it entailed controlling every single aspect of their lives. I mainly ask because there's an RPG setting called Heavy Gear, set on a distant future world, where one of the territories does exactly that. The descriptive text says that while their jobs are pre-determined, the rest of their lives are left to them, and individuality, especially in the form of hobbies and other creative endeavors, is cherished. I mention this mainly because THAT is what I thought the Destiny Plan was intended to be, not something that would turn every person into a government slave, and thus the strong "He wants to take over the world!" response from Kira and co. seemed a bit severe. But again, it may just be my lousy memory.

I think with Talia, she and Durandal were a couple but split up because she wanted kids but he didn't, so she found someone else, married, had a son, and then joined the military. I dunno if they're still together or not.

The biggest problem with Shinn and Luna as a couple is that, well, they didn't develop it. Luna doesn't interact with Shinn all that much early on, and when she does it seems more like a big sister thing. They come together in a moment of personal tragedy late in the series, which has people label their feelings as a form of survivor guilt. The relationship pretty well comes out of nowhere and doesn't make a lot of sense on an intellectual level, which is probably why you and so many others had a hard time swallowing it. (Personally, I'm indifferent, but at that point I was mostly coasting along on feelings of "Yeah, whatever, let's get through this thing.")

I think Durandal's "thank you" to Djibril was mostly at the fact that he made the perfect scapegoat - someone so utterly vile and loathsome that nobody except one as twisted as him would sympathize, and nobody would miss him when he finally got his just desserts. In fact, he barely qualifies as a scapegoat at all IMO, since he was only one set of train tracks away from cartoonish super-villainy, and at that point you really don't need any help pinning the target to your back.

The scene where Kira and Athrun say that most people think the same but don't realize it...I dunno, I know you liked it, but it just rubs me the wrong way for reasons I'll get into in my own end-of-series post.

Regarding Neo being handed the Akatsuki: It's not just "WAR CRIMINAL! BRAINWASHED ENEMY!", but also the fact that the Akatsuki was her father's final gift to her, and she uses it precisely once before handing it off to said less-than-trustworthy individual. Things like this lend credence to some of the rumors about the show's troubled production, but this is something else I'll save for the wrap-up.

The explanation for Destiny's Wings of Light (as well as Strike Freedom's, which only pop up when its DRAGOONs are deployed) comes in Stargazer, so I won't say any more.

The whole thing about Legend annoys the hell out of me. Giving it a model number with "666" in it...it makes no in-world sense (who in their right mind would go along with such a thing?) and it breaks the numbering system ZAFT has had in place for years. I know that the Kyshtria from Gundam Unicorn also has a 666 model number, but there it actually works because it's a successor to the Quin Mantha (NZ-000) and Alpha Azieru (NZ-333). For Legend it only makes sense from a fourth wall perspective, and even there it was done to blatantly label Rey as a villain; it's about as subtle as him revealing that his real name is Adolph Hussein Qaddafi bin Laden.

Either way, I really look forward to your thoughts on the ending. In particular, there's one bit that I wonder how you, as an unabashed fan of Kira and his friends, will respond to when it comes up, since it's one of the most backlash-ridden moments in the entire series - and that's saying something.

[Izayuukan]

I find it hilarious how Kira is so bent on disabling machines and yet the Archangel casually blows up several submarines with all hands on board. Nice hypocrisy there, bub. Even if Kira disables two hundred machines over the course of the war, the Archangel probably killed more soldiers in a few seconds than Kira saved.

The Destiny Plan is moronic, a you-fail-biology-forever moment. As if genes can determine whether you'd make a better paediatrician than an oncologist, or a better lawyer than an accountant. And it is only human nature for the lower-class to rebel against those in authority, especially if said ruling class designed a gene-based caste system. Unless you disabled people's ability to think there would be non-stop uprisings between the genetic haves and the genetic have-nots. Plus, as long as people think they by extension dream, and that means they might not want the life that you try and force on them. Lots of room for conflict there.

Durandel could have been a benevolent tyrant, but by this point he is pretty much just lost in his own ego and hungry to rule the entire earth sphere.

The Destiny running out of power wasn't necessarily a plot hole. Those wings of light chew through the power faster than the reactor (or whatever the Destiny has) can replace it. That's the way I see it.

[reeoyuy]

Yeah, and no amount of Deuterion beam can replace lost physical weapons such as beam boomerangs and AS Sword. I don't really remember but wasn't Destiny AS Sword broken at that point? So with low battery aspect removed in special edition, Rey's suggestion to back to Minerva to resupply (the weapons in this case) is logical, even if convenient Deuterion beam system is available.

[Jaynz]

Even if a solder is following orders that does -not- excuse them from committing war crimes. Solders have the right and indeed the prerogative to disobey illegal or immoral orders. I might be willing to tolerate Neo if perhaps he'd shown some degree of remorse over his actions but the series essentially lets him off scott-free from here on.

Too many angst-ridden characters already? At this point the Archangel crew is just trying to get Mu back, out of the Neo persona, and it does seem to be working. A war crimes tribunal would accept that Mu was brainwashed and mentally manipulated... but they would at least insist on a deprogramming treatment!

Instead said power is stored as "Deuterion" and then used by the suit (supposedly this is a work around to that no nuclear powered MS agreement). In theory this means that the Destiny still has unlimited power however it's systems, especially the Voltaire Lumiere (Wings of Light) drain power faster than it is produced.

Deuterium is just heavy hydrogen (add a neutron to hydrogen for an AW of 2), and is a type of fuel that can be used in nuclear reactions. The idea, I think, is that the Destiny is nuclear powered, but that some of the advanced systems are just that much more powerful that it burns the nuclear fuel at a high clip. SEED Destiny's tech is the second worst of the 'real robot' Gundam shows, unfortunately, and the writers clearly didn't know what they were talking about. Sadly, 00 will top this with the techno-babble nonsense and just bad science.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

How is it not fair? Between SEED and GSD, we're never shown any sympathetic characters in the Earth Alliance outside of the Archangel and Admiral Halberton. [...] Given that Halberton is long dead and the Archangel long out of the EA by the time of GSD, the series presents literally no sympathetic EA characters.

That's exactly my point. People assume that because all the EA characters we see are evil, everyone in the EA is evil. But the only EA characters we see are directly connected to Blue Cosmos and Logos. In Seed, it's Azrael and the druggies. In Destiny, it's Djibril, Neo, and the Extended. We're never shown anyone who doesn't buy into the kill-all-Coordinators philosophy.

That doesn't mean that such people don't exist. Imagine Zeta if we never see anyone from the Earth Federation but Titans. It would make the EFF look pretty bad, wouldn't it? (Granted, they don't look stellar anyway, but at least we know they aren't all guys who hate spacenoids and enjoy gassing colonies for kicks.) My point is that, from the point of view of the average Earth Alliance soldier -- the guys who aren't Blue Cosmos members and know nothing about Logos -- everything they do is justified. ZAFT drops a colony on them, so they attack the PLANTs in kind. ZAFT invades Earth, so they resist. ZAFT pushes them back on all fronts, so they resort to desperate measure to survive. ZAFT suddenly starts a witch hunt for their heads of government, so they do their best to defend them (thinking, not unreasonably, that if ZAFT wants them dead, then it's probably a good idea to keep them alive). ZAFT announces the Destiny plan, so they resist in order to avoid being forced into doing all the scut work while the "genetically superior" Coordinators rule the world. All of that makes perfect sense from their point of view, with the knowledge that they have access to.

Compare this with the average member of ZAFT. ZAFT has clearly been preparing for an Earth invasion even prior to the beginning of Destiny (recall that three of the five Gundams they built are specifically intended for Earth environments). After Coordinator terrorists kill tens of millions of people on Earth, ZAFT refuses to hand them over to the Earth Alliance. ZAFT then puts troops in Earth Alliance territory without Earth Alliance permission, and once OMNI attacks them, ZAFT focuses on seizing more territory rather than defending the PLANTs (there are OMNI bases on the moon that go untouched for almost the entire war, as Burke just saw) despite the fact that ZAFT insists it's acting in self-defense. Then ZAFT suddenly changes its mind and says that they're not fighting in self-defense, but in order to get rid of Logos. Then they change their minds again and say they're not just getting rid of Logos, but ending all war, forever, by implementing the Destiny Plan. Unlike in Seed, Destiny doesn't show any sort of loyal opposition in the PLANTs. Recall that Durandal is democratically elected -- he has to have the support of the PLANTs' people... except now he's setting himself up as god-emperor of mankind (unless anyone really believes that his genetic testing is going to tell him to be a janitor?). The PLANTs have already suffered through one delusional madman as commander in chief -- they should be doubly suspicious of this sort of nonsense from their leaders, but they apparently go along with it without a second thought until Lacus shows up and tells them that Durandal is no good.

The point is that while we, the audience, know that the Earth Alliance is run by a bunch of evil genocidal psychopaths, the normal Earth Alliance citizen has no way to know that, and they act accordingly. They don't oppose ZAFT because they support Logos -- they oppose ZAFT because ZAFT is invading them! Meanwhile, the average member of ZAFT does have enough information to, at the very least, be suspicious of Durandal, and yet they all seem to follow him unquestioningly.

Let's be fair to Durandal, even if he knew who the Break the World terrorists were, he couldn't hand them over because they all got killed in the drop operation.

That's a fair point, but IIRC he never says that. He doesn't say "the terrorists were killed in combat, but we can give you everything we know about them and you can have access to the physical evidence that remains". The Earth Alliance says "if it was really terrorists, then give them to us!" and Durandal says "no". He's pretty blatantly baiting them.

I find it hilarious how Kira is so bent on disabling machines and yet the Archangel casually blows up several submarines with all hands on board. Nice hypocrisy there, bub.

How is people-who-are-not-Kira killing their enemies hypocritical of Kira not wanting to kill people? I don't recall him ever saying that everyone should fight to disable like he does. Hell, he doesn't even treat the don't-kill-people idea has an ironclad rule himself -- he does kill people (notably Rau and Stella) when he has no choice or letting them live would endanger others. Calling Kira a hypocrite because he doesn't force all of his allies to follow his own philosophy seems like a pretty big stretch.

[DuelGundam2099]

(notably Rau and Stella)

And Calamity Gundam's pilot, don't forget him!

Anyone, sorry to hear you're not enjoying the end of the series, Burke. I guess once again I'll be the lone minority when it comes to Destiny.

[Burke Rukes]

Thanks for all the great replies and discussion following my review post from last night, everyone! Before I talk about some of the bigger issue stuff, I want to make this quick reply:

Anyone, sorry to hear you're not enjoying the end of the series, Burke. I guess once again I'll be the lone minority when it comes to Destiny.

And...

I'm actually kinda sad to hear you say that you're starting to get cynical about this show. Seeing the enjoyment you got out of Seed was pretty refreshing, and now you're going through the same disappointment that most of us did when we saw Destiny.

As I said in my last review post:

I have to say, though, at this point in the series, Destiny feels like a disjointed mix of some great scenes, great dialogue, and occasionally great MS battles (when they're not abusing the stock footage too much), and overall, I'm still very much enjoying the "big picture" plot. However, the series has some serious flaws, too. Some minor plot points that are overlooked or handled badly, characterizations that feel weird or completely off the mark at times... I dunno. I still have 7-and-a-half more episodes to go, and I'll wait until the end to make my final judgment on Destiny.

I'll certainly agree that I'm getting more cynical as the series goes on and nears its end, but I'm by no means "not enjoying" the series. Quite the opposite, overall, I'm enjoying it very much. The main plot is engaging and entertaining, a lot of the drama and battles are still exciting. But I'm seeing more flaws now, things that grate on me if not downright tick me off. But it's not stopping me from thinking (at least so far) that Destiny is, in general, a very good series and worthy sequel to SEED. Just like, say, 0083 for example, it has its share of flaws and things I don't like, but I still love to watch it, because it's engaging and entertaining.

And speaking of the bigger picture... Gilbert Durandal has become one of the true Magnificent Bastards of Gundamdom. I still need to watch the last few episodes to see his final endgame and his fate, but I gotta say, he's about as slick as they come in terms of smooth-talking, charismatic, underhanded, slimy-behind-the-scenes politicians. He's pulled one of the biggest con games on humanity in this story, and he had everyone on his side eating out of his hand - including many of us, the viewers (and I certainly admit to it for myself) - and he said one thing, and did exactly the opposite. And now some people have figured out what sort of hypocritical monster he really is. He's as equally (if not more) dangerous than Djibril and the Logos/Blue Cosmos/Earth Alliance bigwigs he's warring against, he just does it in a completely different way, that's totally manipulative and blindsides his opponents. I'd admire him, if I didn't despise him now.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

(notably Rau and Stella)

And Calamity Gundam's pilot, don't forget him!

Kira doesn't kill any of the Druggies. Athrun kills one, and Yzak the other two.

He's as equally (if not more) dangerous than Djibril and the Logos/Blue Cosmos/Earth Alliance bigwigs he's warring against

I'd say he's more, by far, because he's a lot more subtle (and, let's face it, effective).

[Chris]

That's exactly my point. People assume that because all the EA characters we see are evil, everyone in the EA is evil. But the only EA characters we see are directly connected to Blue Cosmos and Logos. In Seed, it's Azrael and the druggies. In Destiny, it's Djibril, Neo, and the Extended. We're never shown anyone who doesn't buy into the kill-all-Coordinators philosophy.

This is not true and you know it. We are shown EA characters who are not connected to Blue Cosmos/Logos/Phantom Pain, and they're just as bad. I mentioned the examples of the Strike Dagger pilots in SEED or the Windam pilots from the nuclear attack in GSD. There's also Garcia and his fellow Eurasian jerks from Artemis. We can only go by what the series show us, and both series go out of their way to set up the EA as superbad. There probably are characters in the EA who aren't evil, but bad writing doesn't let us see them. As for fighting a ZAFT invasion, that's not the point either. It's clear that Logos was spoiling for war, and in another piece of bad writing and making a cheap Iraq allegory, they use Break the World as their excuse to attack the PLANTs with nukes. And since Logos pretty much sets EA policy in GSD, they get the war they want, but it's not justified defense from an invasion.