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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:53 pm 
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AEUG Slapping Boy

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:32 pm
Posts: 148
This was my response to the Turn A theory getting discussed in the AGE thread and the supposed problems of the Turn-A theory. Anyways.


I figured Turn A was working on the idea that the world goes in circles, much like an Ouroboros snake, constantly eating it's own tail and regenerating, making for constant change, that results in similar things occurring but with variation.We can also look at the concept of Kali Youga, it is said to be the era where man degenerates the most morally(and most technologically advanced in the case of Gundam) , and is the fourth stage of an endless cycle, and we could see that with this people end up wiping themselves out, or at least to a point were they have returned to a primitive lifestyle(much like what happened with the moonlight butterfly) ,and with things like the Turn A buried,and the means to wage massive wars also buried, we return to Satya Yuga, the first stage were man is closest to "god",most morally productive, and able to live in peace. This essentially goes in circles,so we could see that kind of destruction potentially happening within each of the separate eras/universes, were man builds up this amazing technology and intelligence, and wipes itself out, only to be reborn again. This is call out towards traditionalism and anti-modernism, and the potential destruction that human ingenuity can cause, which seems quite appropriate for an anime considering the effects of nuclear weaponry on Japan.

Edit: For clarity's sake, the Ouroboros is an occult symbol that has popped up around the world at different times in many different areas previously thought to have no contact from, surfacing as early as the 1400's. The Youga concept comes from the ancient eastern monistic religions.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:32 am
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As I am not an expert on such, I will not go into it. I don't even know if the exact subject you bring up in detail is what came into Tomino's head. But regardless, the point you simply typed as "the world going in circles" is basically the point made in the final episodes of the anime, especially when it finally goes into detail about the Dark History. What I got out of it is that, basically, any notion of humanity being "more" or "above" animals is crap, that our fighting each other proves it (whether with sticks and stones or mobile suits and space colonies-turned-ballistic-missiles). The conclusion of which (when bigger weapons are brought in) can be depressing if brought to real life discussion, so I'll brush it aside. Now, if that basically describes what you brought up in layman's terms, okay...

...But the debate wasn't the dog-eat-dog-until-kablooie concept itself that was brought up in the final TAG episodes. The debate of the Turn A Bang theory was the details of the story element; of how the events in each past Gundam anime are intertwined into one big timeline that all happened before Turn A Gundam. How can a world of Amuro and Char exist with a world of Heero and Zechs, or with Garrod and the Frost Bros.? Or--taking the '90s AU Gundam out (though you can't exactly, if Turn X has a "Shining Finger" attack that was a clear callback to Shining Gundam's attack of the same name), how it fits with UC on a technical level; the Zaku I and II MSs aren't quite the same, the Kapool and Gallop look downsized, and that's just for starters.

Basically, it's the geek aspect of the Turn A Bang theory and how it fits (or doesn't) that was brought up, not the philosophical one.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:22 am 
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AEUG Slapping Boy

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:32 pm
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That is definitely a part of it for sure, i honestly did'nt feel that my blurb required it's own thread, but i was told not to continue on in the thread that i planned to post it in.I find Tomino generally advocates that kind of message, the dangers of humans getting full of ourselves and our technology, and how it leads us astray rather than to better things more time than not, and i think Tomino would agree that animals are better as they can live in harmony with one another and the earth ( killing for food and total war are quite different things).

Were the theory explains the "how does it fit" is the concept that the earth and mankind having existed for far longer than we realize. And that the different universes are actually the same, just thousands(an estimate on my part) of years apart. I found it an interesting concept as i recalled a friend of mine mentioning how more scientists have been finding ancient cities with complex sewage systems, dating back to before humans were even supposed to had pottery or were even that intelligent supposedly. And just how much we have left to uncover about the world and the past.

I've always found that these kind of inquiries and links that i study in real life, is allot of what makes Tomino's work so special to me, whether it be Nietzsche's "uberman" concept and it's relation to newtypes, human progress vs the damage to the environment and ect ect. The finer concepts of the exact size of mobile suits and the like don't seem that important to me since it's based on a fictional world, not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just something about myself more than anything. Thanks for clarifying that though.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:53 am 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:32 am
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Well, when I brought up "any notion of humanity being 'more' or 'above' animals is crap" as one of the storytelling messages I got out of it, I mean that I think--even with Tomino getting out of his depression phase in that time--that he's quite depressed about the future, because again, it seems we can be brutal to each other no matter how technologically advanced or primitive we are as a species. Maybe we'd be in harmony without so much technology as animals might be, but that still doesn't mean they don't fight and hound each other as well. The gloomy message seems quite a polar opposite to one of the western world's more "optimistic" (yet still combat-heavy) sci-fi franchises. And despite liking the Gundam franchise and coming to think about a couple of concepts or messages, it's not something I usually tend to or even want to address, since I'd rather enjoy myself than get worked up over the (seemingly popular) pessimistic messages in sci-fi and everywhere else.

I personally got into Gundam more for the stylistic/sugarcoating reasons rather than the substance of the story and messages. I would enjoy more a Gundam anime with a good story, I'll give you that (and I believe TAG to fit that). But I think I'd have a harder time getting into Gundam if the concept of mobile suits and mobile suit combat. Maybe TAG would be more popular if the odd (but--to me--lovable) MS designs were gone and it wasn't a mecha show, but of what's there and how it's done, I love it.

You are right, it is fiction. But I and others happen to have found a good sense of escapism in it and would have a good time debating the little tid-bits that don't matter, or play a good Gundam game or build a mobile suit model. Ironically, I think a lot of us would be singing a different tune if the world of Gundam was a real one, but it isn't, and I think I would feel better in my spirits having some fun each and every day without being too philosophical or worrying about the world and it's future. Maybe Tomino would conclude I'd be part of the problem, but I don't think he'd complain when I snatch my copy of the NA-released TAG DVDs and hand over some money for it.

But since you do enjoy philosophical discussions about messages between the lines of sci-fi and anime (like Gundam), I hope you'll find a better discussion than one with me here.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Mysterious Masked Dude

Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:13 pm
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Cycles of life is a fairly common idea in eastern cultures. I think Tomino himself said that all his shows have the same charaters, just in different names. As for the world constantly destroying and recreating itself, that idea is clearly shown in Ideon. But I think the point about Turn A is that depsite how things go in circles, things are a little different each time and can improve overtime. As UC was an analogy for more or less the world of the last century, I think there is a reason why the story was set in future iteration of the beginning of the 19th century. IMO it's Tomino's way of descrbing a "second (or third, or more) try" at developing a better technological society. That's also the difference between "Turn A" and "Turn X". X flipping around is still a X, while filpping an A is going to be different. While I don't want to delve too much into arbitary "symbolism", Turn A and Turn X designs do seem to represent Tomino's aspect on human nature. Just a few note for thought: Turn A is a masculine MS (note the cockpit), with a "feminine" pilot, while Turn X is clearly a "feminine" MS (note the energy draining device and pilot in the head) but with a masculine pilot.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:58 pm 
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AEUG Slapping Boy

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:32 pm
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Siroh, the discussion you've given me to work with here is quite good as it is honestly,and thank you for responding.I feel that by addressing these issues, especially on more accessible medium like anime, more people could maybe learn to understand these things and work on them together. I see nothing wrong with using Gundam for escapism and some entertainment as well,after all if i just wanted philosophy i could read a philosophy book, the mecha action is what initially brought me into Gundam when i was 10 or so, but as i aged i found were other shows came and gone, the deeper values of shows like Gundam,NGE and others had more staying power because of these things.I like the idea of having my desire for inquiry of the world, and my desire for entertainment fulfilled at once(though i do think society focuses a bit to much on the later, leaving us in a bit of a rut). I loved the Turn-A designs as well, and have been craving a good Gundam game myself haha.

flamingtroll, that is an excellent point, and yes most eastern religious belief has that idea, i personally it makes more sense than the more linear western thinking.And the way it is different every time actually goes along with the ouroboros concept very well. Even with Tomino's fairly bleak world on man, he seems to believe that we can learn from our mistakes rather than constantly repeat them, and i think Diana's revealing of the dark history to the people of the moon is a way of saying that society needs to know where we came from, and what we stand to gain or loose depending on how we act as a society.And it only takes a few swell guys like Loran to start a trend with the rest of the world for a better future, even though we will always have are fair share of Guin's or Gym's (who also represent some interesting archetypes themselves).

edit: For the last part you added in, i never thought of that actually, really good point. I always thought Guin was just a creep who liked the idea of Loran being a girl haha.

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Four temperaments (fuse) - statuesque entity
The fortitude of a pristine creature
Transcend tyranny- Quintessential Power


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