Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Izayuukan » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:50 am

And you're refusing to actually debate with me. Using the word "irrelevant" to dismiss my (relevant) explanation to the question of why I included a societal angle into the conversation is proof that you have no intention of taking this seriously. Now that I have confirmed this fact, I don't need to waste any more of my time.

Congratulations, through trolling tactics you've "won" an argument on the Internet. Here's a cake, much cooler than you deserve but I'm a kind guy. Don't worry, it's big enough for you to share with ShadowCell.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a (hopefully) nice movie to watch. Listening to Megumi Nakajima will be infinitely more entertaining than corresponding to someone with the mental flexibility of a concrete wall.






God, I hope Burke's SEED Destiny discussion isn't as trying as this one was.

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by ShadowCell » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:58 am

You haven't debated anything because you've moved the goalposts around so much they look like extras from "Thriller." Nobody can actually debate anything with you if not even you know what you're saying, and it's quite evident you don't.

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Seraphic » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:15 am

Izayuukan wrote:Seraphic, humans are not dogs, but we are animals. And like many animals we are prone to tribalism and forming a group identity. [...] Even if Naturals and Co-ordinators can breed (and the animated franchise is silent on this matter), but even if I accept that they can, then so what? That doesn't mean they aren't separate groups in conflict with one another. A german shepherd can breed with a bichon friese, but if packs of both were starving and fighting over territory then you think the bigger dogs would be willing to share with the littler dogs? You don't think that the bigger dogs would, over time, defeat the littler dogs, as per natural selection?

Besides, dogs are commonly regarded to be highly unusual with their ability to cross-breed. You would never see that level of physical difference in amongst most species, so it is an exception that doesn't really prove anything.
It's like you understand the concept of what I'm getting across, but you ignore it to further your point about social differences.

What I was trying to say, in short, was that Coordinators are like pure-bred dogs in terms of their perceived differences. But even though these physical and societal differences may exist between the pure-bred and normal animals, they still meet the interbreeding criteria for being the same species.

That's why it matters. When you meet the definition/criteria for being something, you are that thing. In this case: Naturals and Coordinators are the same species because they can interbreed and create viable offspring. You cannot ignore or argue against that.

***

Groups in conflict are not separate species just because they are fighting. To take your words, do you think packs of wolves and foxes get along? Do you think wolves will share their food with a fox just because it happens to wander by? Of course not. That goes against their social and behavioral norms.

But you know what? Wolf-fox hybrids are not uncommon. Why? Because the two different populations don't have to "get along and share". They just have to breed. And the hybrids, I suppose, just live similarly to the population that raised them. (A hybrid would live in a wolf pack if born to a wolf, and a hybrid would live like a fox if born to a fox.) It's a controversial topic, but in this case, wolves and foxes meet the interbreeding criteria for species.

Your 'social differences' argument doesn't hold water against the interbreeding definition for species.

***

Iza, it seems we're also arguing from completely different standpoints. We understand that the political leaders of each faction may try to play up the differences between the two even if they are not true. We're just saying it's still not true in any context whatsoever. We are talking about truth, not about social perception/agenda and propaganda.

I'm sorry this whole talk seemed to have turned a bit nasty. The others have been a bit curt with you.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Jaynz » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:52 am

Seraphic wrote:I'm sorry this whole talk seemed to have turned a bit nasty. The others have been a bit curt with you.
I'm sorry, but Iza's argument boils down to one basic 'point'. That is, if a group of individuals define themselves as a 'superior species' (that is, a 'master race'), they not only have the moral and ethical right to wipe out all 'inferior species', but have an actual imperative to do so. Regardless of his own "debating" skill, the entire crux of his point is based on the "final solution".

How anyone can find this as less than extremely offensive and reprehensible is beyond me.

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:29 am

Izayuukan wrote:Here's a cake
That is a pretty cool cake though. I guess this means Gundam SEED must be good if people are getting into heavy philosophical whatnot debates over it! :lol:
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:20 pm

Izayuukan wrote:You do make a good point, I concede that the show did say fighting was okay as long as you are protecting something. But what about the Naturals trying to protect themselves from the Co-ordinators, and vice-versa? One side were losing jobs, their economy and their place as the dominant species alive, while the other lost a quarter-million people from nukes.
You're ignoring the April Fools Crisis. After the Bloody Valentine, ZAFT responded by deploying N-Jammers on Earth, which instantly shut down the (nuclear-dependent) energy grid on the planet. This killed tens of millions of people. So it's not like the Coordinators are fighting for their very survival and the Naturals are just trying to milk the PLANTs for economic reason -- both sides have committed mass murder against the other.
Izayuukan wrote:Junius 7 was not only at half-population when it was destroyed, but as a farming colony it probably wasn't intended to have many people in the first place compared to other colonies.
I've never heard anything suggesting that, and the only other PLANT population figure I'm aware of
SpoilerShow
(when six PLANTs being destroyed is said to have killed 1.5 million people in Destiny)
support the "quarter million per PLANT" number.
Izayuukan wrote:A lot of those things Orb came up with, not the Earth Alliance, and Orb used Co-ordinators.
Which ones? I intentionally didn't mention things like a Natural-use OS, variable phase shift, or other things produced by Orb because I know they have Coordinators in their population. Of the tech I attributed to the Earth Alliance, the only stuff we see Orb using is beam weapons (on the Astrays) and positron weapons (on the Kusinagi), and we don't know if they picked that up from the OMNI designs or if the OMNI designs included it with their help. But even ignoring those two things, we still have a more impressive list of tech created by Naturals than we do by Coordinators.
Izayuukan wrote:One group being used as cannon-fodder has happened time and time again throughout history, and while it is not okay to do so, it is also not okay to turn traitor and run away just because you got the short end of the stick.
Again; there's a difference between being asked to fight a losing battle and being deliberately targeted for murder. Your response doesn't speak to that.
Izayuukan wrote:In a war between two species, genocide is not illegal.
Ignoring the question of whether Naturals and Coordinators are different species (which has already been covered), it's still genocide. Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of a particular group of people. Both Naturals and Coordinators certainly count as a distinct group.
Izayuukan wrote:First off, Gundam SEED is pretty much more anti-war than pretty much any other Gundam (that I've seen, which is most of 0079, 08th MS Team, most of 0083, Zeta, Char's Counterattack, Wing, some of Turn A, SEED, SEED Destiny, 00 S1, 00 S2 and half of Unicorn). So the hypocrisy is worst here.
Gundam Seed is definitely not more anti-war than Wing (which advocates total pacifism), 00 (which insists that we can solve all our problems through communication, without resorting to violence), or Turn A (which has both sides frantically trying to stop the conflict the whole time).
Izayuukan wrote:Secondly, I take it you have never seen Grave of the Fireflies. It is an anti-war movie which doesn't glorify war at all.
I haven't, but my understanding is that it's not so much a "war movie" (showing soldiers and combat and the like) as it is a "home front movie" (showing the effects that the war had on the civilian populace at home).
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Chris » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:25 pm

Izayuukan wrote:And you're refusing to actually debate with me. Using the word "irrelevant" to dismiss my (relevant) explanation to the question of why I included a societal angle into the conversation is proof that you have no intention of taking this seriously. Now that I have confirmed this fact, I don't need to waste any more of my time.
Oh please, get over yourself. I call it irrelevant because it is. You spent all those posts trying to make a scientific argument for Naturals and Coordinators being different species, then you throw in an unrelated and flimsy argument about society. Criticizing that isn't trolling, so get off the debating high horse.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Burke Rukes » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:07 pm

*Quietly steps back into the thread, looks around, clears throat*

Ahem... well. I was going to come back to offer some thoughts on the genetic engineering and Coordinator vs. Natural topics in relation to the series... but you all got started without me. And it's turned nasty. A lot of good points, though some horrific stuff as well. How someone can justify genocide against members of one's own species or any other sentient being just baffles my senses of ethics and empathy. So I'm just going to drop the whole thing and not even get into this argument, and move right on to Destiny.

I'm going to start a new thread for my Destiny reviews later today, so everyone come on over! My reviews won't be so detailed and blow-by-blow, just my comments and impressions on specific points and highlights. See you there! :)
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:56 pm

I guess as a final entry, I'll offer this--

Top 5 Mechs in SEED
1. The GAT-X105 Strike takes first place of course.
2. TS-MA2mod.00 Moebius Zero; I actually think it's kinda cool, if a little bulky.
3. ZGMF-600 GuAIZ; probably one of the best ZAFT designs of the series.
4. MBF-M1 M1 Astray; I like 'em as literal mass-production Gundams, after a fashion.
5. ZGMF-X10A Freedom; I actually do like it, even if it is a spam machine.

The MBF-02 Strike Rouge gets an Honorable Mention for being the machine of my girl Cagalli!

Top 5 Characters of SEED
1. Athrun Zala
2. Cagalli Yula Attha
3. Murrue Ramius
4. Admiral Halberton (for being the only decent Alliance officer that got speaking time)
5. Kira Yamato (he doesn't go higher for crying too much)

Patrick Zala and Azrael get Honorable Mentions for being despicable villains and also Andy Waltfeld.

Lastly
Top 10 Scenes
1. Mu Gets Antimatter-ed and Murrue's Lament
2. The Cyclops System AND GENESIS (for pure Horror value)
3. Freedom Rescues the Archangel
4. The Great Kebab Debate
5. Then Go Ahead And Shoot Me Athrun Zala, Soldier of ZAFT
6. Natarle Goes Out Like Boromir
7. Athrun vs. Kira Island Deathmatch
8. Don't Mock Miriallia, Dearka...
9. Heads Up Tolle
10. Batter-up Nichol

Honorable Mentions to Athrun and Cagalli's Island Getaway METEOR Spam and Murrue and Mu's First Kiss
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Jaynz » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:53 pm

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote: Top 5 Mechs in SEED
1. The GAT-X105 Strike takes first place of course.
2. TS-MA2mod.00 Moebius Zero; I actually think it's kinda cool, if a little bulky.
3. ZGMF-600 GuAIZ; probably one of the best ZAFT designs of the series.
4. MBF-M1 M1 Astray; I like 'em as literal mass-production Gundams, after a fashion.
5. ZGMF-X10A Freedom; I actually do like it, even if it is a spam machine.
Hmm.. Five from SEED itself is a little tricky, but here goes.

1) GAT-X105 Strike. This is actually one of my favorite Gundams, period. It's a fairly clean design with a sensible 'add-on' system that really works for it. The Launcher and Aile Strike packs work quite well. The sword pack... not quite so much... Honestly, I could have a fleet of these guys for my HG 1/144 collection.

2) MBF-02 Strike Rogue. Cheating a little, since this is basically just the Strike with the 'girl pink' color on it. What's funny, though, is just how well this looks in this color, particularly when combined with the black and red Aile Strike Pack.

3) GAT-X103 Buster. This one grew on me slowly, and it wasn't one of my favorites initially. It's a solid design, though, and makes sense as a heavy-firepower mobile weapon. It hits the same sweet-spot as the Heavy Arms and the Leopard. I was surprised at how sorry I was to see it go...

4) ZGMF-X09A Justice Gundam. I was always partial to this configuration of the Justice rather than its replacement. The design is fairly simple, including its own 'flight pack' rather rely on the silly Raider or some such... A bit of a beam spammer, of course, but not so ridiculous as the...

5) ZGMF-X10A Freedom Gundam. Yeah, this is the 'awesome Gundam' for the series, but I was always feeling that it was too out of place when compared to everything else around it. The design is okay, but I'm not aesthetically fond of the wing assembly. The many-beam-cannons are a bit much, and the fact they fire Skittles Rainbow Colors didn't exactly help my opinion of it. It may be more canonically powerful, but I always felt like the Strike was a better suit.

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:55 pm

Jaynz wrote: 5) ZGMF-X10A Freedom Gundam. Yeah, this is the 'awesome Gundam' for the series, but I was always feeling that it was too out of place when compared to everything else around it. The design is okay, but I'm not aesthetically fond of the wing assembly. The many-beam-cannons are a bit much, and the fact they fire Skittles Rainbow Colors didn't exactly help my opinion of it. It may be more canonically powerful, but I always felt like the Strike was a better suit.
Freedom Gundam... taste the rainbow.


:lol: Sorry man, just had to do it. :lol:
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Jaynz » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:04 pm

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:Freedom Gundam... taste the rainbow.
:lol: Sorry man, just had to do it. :lol:
I will hurt you later. It will involve Flay, Meer, a Pink Zaku Blaze, and a spoon. :P

I tell you, though, I love a lot of the CE's mobile suits, but I realized how many I liked were actually from Destiny. The upgraded suits for the Earth Forces and the Zaku lines are really nice. I had to go to the checklist to make sure I wasn't including suits from the wrong line in that top 5.

I really didn't like the GINN or its variants much. The Duel was okay, and I would have actually liked it if it had been the Earth force's GM. (The Dagger was okay, but the blue head screamed out "Cheap Optimus Prime Knockoff" every time I saw it.) Blitz had some nice features, but I never liked the lines of it.. Calamity is better in the MSV. :S

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Izayuukan » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:21 pm

Wish more people were as honest as you, Burke.

Can't wait for the SEED Destiny thread.

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:54 pm

Jaynz wrote: I will hurt you later. It will involve Flay, Meer, a Pink Zaku Blaze, and a spoon. :P
MEER CAMPBELL??! You sir, have gone too far! I challenge you to a Gundam Fight! READY? GOOO!!!
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Jaynz » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:13 pm

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Jaynz wrote: I will hurt you later. It will involve Flay, Meer, a Pink Zaku Blaze, and a spoon. :P
MEER CAMPBELL??! You sir, have gone too far! I challenge you to a Gundam Fight! READY? GOOO!!!
Universe! After Three Thousand Years, you shall know the terror of the Dark History! This hand of mine glows with an awesome power! Prepare the Jet-Stream Attack!

SPOOOOOOOON!

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:22 pm

Jaynz wrote:
Universe! After Three Thousand Years, you shall know the terror of the Dark History! This hand of mine glows with an awesome power! Prepare the Jet-Stream Attack!

SPOOOOOOOON!
BY THE POWER OF GRAYSKULL!!! RAISER SWOOOOOORRRRDDDDD!!!!!! BREAK!!!!!
I can fly if I ride the wind! Gori gori!

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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Scorpius7692 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:11 am

I think its time for an armed intervention.

GUNDAM MEISTERS, COMMENCE MISSION!!!
FALL!!!!!!!!
I AM GUNDAM!!!!!!!!
MY VOICE GIVES ME SUPER STRENGTH!!!!!!

Oh, and there is no spoon.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Sume Gai » Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:49 am

*glances between the latest posts and a set of rails.*

Hmmmm.....

*pulls out binoculars then with a shake of the head moves to a telescope nearby*

Still can't see the rails...

In an attempt to get this thread back on track, I must say SEED is definitely the series that got me interested in Gundam beyond TV. Due partly to CN's misshandling of the series schedual it was the first complete series I tracked down. From there I got Zeta the rest is history.

I'd have to say alot of people give it more flak than it deserves. As a gateway into gundam It was very well done mixing in old and new ideas to create something very engaging. Though it seems an unpopular position I also think it has a very good dub with Matt Hill and Sam Vincent having great chemistry.
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:42 pm

Did CN honestly think SEED could succeed at one in the morning? Were they counting on the stoner college crowd?
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Re: Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

Post by G-Slayer » Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:51 pm

Maybe they were counting on the college-roommate-who-sees-a-sock-on-his-dorm's-doorknob crowd.
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