Burke's First Impressions of Gundam Seed!

[LightningCount]

This is a fun thread. Reading your post, and the facets to it, it just reconfirms to me what I said in another thread, that SEED, even in spite of its flaws, was the most "satisfying" and "complete" Gundam series of the post-2000 Gundam series. The very first time I saw SEED, the way it was so familiar to 0079 bothered me so much I couldn't give a fair shot until much later in the series. In a recent rewatch a year or two ago, I realized how good the early portions are, though, particularly episodes 1-6. The subtle shifts in narrative from 0079 have massive ramifications. Using genetics changes the subtext of the war. Having five Gundams (ala Wing, G, and X) inserted into a more classical war story (and having four of them be enemies) really altered the structure of combat scenarios. Having Mu to be an involved Han Solo-esque mentor and soldier gave the series a more balanced sense of heroes off the bat compared to the involvement of Ryu in 0079. Marrue as a female captain changed the atmosphere (she is the first since F-91, IIRC, and has a much bigger role). Etc, etc.

This series does some of the best job of scale and military diversity in recent Gundams. Like Wing, it shows tanks and planes and other apparatus fighting giant mobile suits.

I have to say, the Luna-II and Artimis comparison was something that irked me the first time. But having rewatched both a while back, I actually think that the Artimis episode is more interesting, fun, and involving in the way it frames the situation around Kira's dilemma, characterizes the politics of CE, and the way in which it reveals another Gundam's specialty.

By the way, Rau gets better. There's more to this Char than meets the eye. He's one of the highlights of SEED for me. (As an aside--Full Frontal, your copy-cat hair just doesn't compare ).

I like the functionality of the various Gundams. Strike and Duel feel, by and large, very functional and military-like in their form. (I want to point out that the backpack conversion idea and its execution is reminiscent of Zoids: New Century Zero, which predates SEED with a speed, artillery, and close-range armor attachments, and a container to swap them out). Buster was an interesting alternative artillery model coming off the standards set by Heavyarms and Leopard. Being a fan of Epyon, Master, and Virsago, though, I love the Blitz's sinister look. And Aegis, as weird as it is, really strikes me as a one-of-a-kind Gundam, which I really like. The GINN and other ZAFT suits, I feel, are right on target in design. They borrow from Zeon, but still have their own identity, much like the Space Revolutionary Army's suits in X. They are much better and more original than the colonial suits of SEED Destiny.

You never told us what you thought of Phase Shift armor? Gray to color!

...Just thinking about it, there are some really great stretches of episodes ahead of you. This series really does evolve. Following that 1-6 stretch, I think the next stretch that I was really grabbed by (and by that I mean I can watch it even out of sequence after seeing the series) starts at episode 16. By the way, as you have watched the series, and as you continue, I want you to think about how Unicorn may have adopted some of SEED's tweaked/original elements for its own for some scenarios/characters.

[AmuroNT1]

Quick someone, post the picture of the original Strike Rouge pilot, to mess with his mind something fierce!

You mean this?

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/ ... 975385.jpg

[E08]

If im not mistaken PLANT also contains Naturals who have Coordinator kids....
Actaully if the theft never occur the 5 gundams are supposed to work as a team. Dalong.net contains a pic regrading that at the PG Strike page. Aegis is suppossed to be the commader's unit, Blitz is the shady one, Buster provide long range support, Duel seems to be the guard unit for Archangel and Strike can serve as range support, melee specialist or general purpose unit.

I can see why Athrun join ZAFT, afterall the population of PLANT arent large and to fight a force as large as EA, ZAFT needs as much manpower as they can get.

[Zeonista]

And the sad part is... they don't have to. So often, people in bad situations are victims of their own choices. More so for Athrun than Kira at this point, I'd say. Kira simply wants to protect his friends, but it's cost him another friend. Athrun wants revenge for his mother's death (I assume that the grave of Lenore Zala is his mom?), and is probably being pressured by his military minister father (who isn't hesitating to keep beating the war drums within the rest of the PLANT council). He -could- say no and walk away from all of that. But I haven't a feeling he won't. (At least, not now - that could change in the future.

Now t hat I remember it, thanks to E08, Athrun is expected to play a role in ZAFT's bold defense against the EAF's belligerent oppression, etc etc. As the son of a leading official, he has to be seen doing his part, and not in a comfy staff position either. No one in ZAFT is going to sing "Fortunate Son", the sons and daughters of the elite are in the ranks along with the regular citizens. The sad fate of Junius Seven and the frustration of seeing Kira on an OMNI ship hones a personal edge to his (dare we say it) patriotic duty.

[Ouroboric]

I though that while Kira was likeable, Athrun was the character who really kept me interested in the CE universe. That inner struggle between duty and friendship, being caught up in the hate of battle ,

Spoiler

development with Cagali, regret of having to "kill" Kira and eventually having to re-question everything while pointing a gun at as fiance, and growing so much as a character in the course of the series, it was all so well done.

He was one of the best characters of any AU Gundam series.

[Burke Rukes]

You never told us what you thought of Phase Shift armor? Gray to color!

It's a neat visual gimmick, though how the color-changing thing works (and why those particular colors) doesn't make much sense to me. But at least it gives us a visual cue to tell us when the armor is on and off, and gives us a CE variation of gundarium/gundanium armor.

...Just thinking about it, there are some really great stretches of episodes ahead of you. This series really does evolve. Following that 1-6 stretch, I think the next stretch that I was really grabbed by (and by that I mean I can watch it even out of sequence after seeing the series) starts at episode 16.

I agree, the first few episodes were fun, lots of action and the necessary introductions. But these last few episodes (up through 15) have really shown the plot and characters moving forward, giving us a bigger view of this world and the conflict. My impressions are improving as I keep watching, so far.

By the way, as you have watched the series, and as you continue, I want you to think about how Unicorn may have adopted some of SEED's tweaked/original elements for its own for some scenarios/characters.

Hmm, I'll have to do that. I need to re-watch Unicorn again soon (probably after I finish Destiny, and before I dive into 00). I've really enjoyed Unicorn so far, but I need to watch it again to start absorbing it more. I'll keep that in mind, LightningCount.

[Burke Rukes]

Apologies for the double posting, mods. I had this review post already written and ready to copy-and-paste but needed to reply to LightningCount first.

The fun and excitement continues with Episodes 11 thru 15 of Gundam Seed! As always, thanks to everyone for their comments and input!

The aftermath of Kira's unauthorized launch in the Strike and liberation of Lacus was amusing and surprising. Natarle being her usual hard-nosed self, serving as the prosecutor, is no surprise. Watching poor Mu trying his best to defend Kira, flipping through law books, and them haggling over whether even taking Lacus as a "hostage" was even legal was strangely amusing. Though Ramius scaring Kira with that death sentence remark was shocking (and unnecessary, in my opinion). Thankfully, she brushed it off because Kira's a civilian. And gave no punishment at all. Good to see Ramius continues to have some genuine human compassion. During this legal tug-of-war, they mention the Corsica Treaty - CE's equivalent of UC's Antarctic Treaty? Oh, and the most advanced warship in a future computerized information/space age society has a LIBRARY of printed books? How quaint.

Even more action and drama getting cranked up in these episodes, starting with the ZAFT Gundam pilots trying one more time to take down the Archangel and Strike before they reach the Earth orbital fleet. And oh boy, did Kira mess up the Duel Gundam and Yzak good! (With the pig-sticker knife again! Hahaha!) That psycho killer jerk had it coming... too bad the results of that battle send the whackjob even more over the edge and causes more horror. What's with Yzak constantly calling Nicol a coward? Just 'cause Nicol has a different combat style than Yzak doesn't make him less courageous.

And wow, does the Archangel have some very impressive armor! The Blitz was just blasting and pounding and blasting and pounding and only managed to make a dent before Kira showed up and drove Nicol off.

Some nice character bits in these episodes. Ramius finally taking the time to have a personal chat with Kira, thanking him for all he's done, was really nice. And perfectly willing to let him and the other kids from Heliopolis go if they wanted, despite Natarle (sigh, Natarle...) suggesting to Admiral Halberton that the Earth Alliance military kidnap (oh, I mean "take into protective custody" ) Kira's parents to force him to stay in the military. Go Ramius! She's hot, -and- she has a heart! Now if she'd just stand up to Natarle's B.S. more...

Speaking of Admiral Halberton, what a great guy, I assume he's the Seed equivalent of General Revil. I also got the impression that he was a mentor to Ramius. He was brave in protecting Archangel, and friendly and caring towards Archangel's Heliopolis refugees. He's another good-natured, sensible and likeable Gundam military brass officer! Who, like pretty much all good-natured, sensible and likeable Gundam military brass officers... dies. I was sad to see him go boom.

And that battle in Earth orbit was very exciting and intense! And pretty scary, seeing only 4 Gundams literally decimate a huge fleet of ships. Then came the atmospheric entry... and angry psycho killer Yzak shooting down the shuttle with the Heliopolis civilian refugees, including the cute little girl who gave Kira the origami flower. The very shuttle he'd have been on himself if he hadn't changed his mind and decided to stay to pilot the Strike. When Kira later loses it, just breaking down in total anguish over what happened to those people, I was almost in tears myself. I might have been in Flay hadn't been there...

Flay, Flay, Flay. What a monster she's turning into. Pretending to care for Kira, to show romantic affection, just so she can use him as her secret killing machine, to murder as many ZAFT/Coordinator people as he can for the sake of her revenge. And blaming Kira for the death of her father. Smiling when Kira's lost in his grief and anguish over the death of the civilians on the shuttle. "You're to fight, and to fight, and to fight, until you die. It's the only way I'll forgive you." *shudders in horror* She's truly a monster.

And I wonder, was her announcing her decision to enlist in the military, in front of her friends, part of a bigger scheme to help make sure Kira stayed, too? Knowing that if -she- stayed to help "fight the good fight," the friends would stay, and if the friends would stay, Kira would stay? I kinda got that impression. And was she seriously considering putting on the pilot suit and going out in the Strike herself, if Kira left? Or was she simply waiting, hoping Kira would show up at the locker room, so she could spring whatever emotional mind-screwing stuff on him to make him stay and fly the Strike? She's clearly using Kira for her own selfish, psychologically broken ends. I guess I'm wondering how much of what she says and does now is genuine, and how much is manipulating Kira and the others.

And poor Sai, getting kicked to the curb by Flay. Well, he's better off without her (or at least we the viewers know he is). There seems to be an awful lot of arranged marriages and pairings in this series. I get that that form of social slavery is still big in Japan (and it is slavery - if you're not free to choose who you wish to marry yourself, to love who you freely fall in love with, then it's a form of slavery), I guess it's just scary to see that sort of thing still prominent in such a technologically advanced society. I wonder if Sai's going to get jealous seeing Flay "fawning" all over Kira?

That's the big stuff, now for the shotgun of little notes and items.

Lacus doesn't show up much in this run of episodes, but what time she does have is actually rather nice. Her heart to heart with Athrun was nice - she's actually compassionate and concerned about him and Kira and what they're going through. Not so much with the cutesy ditzy stuff this time.

Anti-beam depth charges - what a very neat idea! Temporarily deployed I-fields, essentially, if I'm seeing that right. Very cool.

The Duel Gundam gets an upgrade with the Assault Shroud armor and extra weapons. Athrun's report to the PLANT civilian council about the Gundams reveals that they theorize the Duel was actually the primary/base design from which the other Gundams were developed, which makes sense. I think it's as much of a "conventional" Gundam as the Strike, and seeing it with extra armor and ranged weapons now adds to this impression. It's no longer so much about the melee combat, finding a bigger balance between melee and ranged now with the upgrade.

Episode 14 is the first recap episode, but done differently and with some neat stuff - essentially, a history lesson of the Cosmic Era universe mixed in with the episode clips. The revelation and explanation of the N-jammers, rendering nuclear reactors and weapons useless, following the nuking of Junius 7, helps set this series' setting apart from UC Gundam. There isn't just a piece of paper saying that nukes can't be used, now it's a technological possibilty - changes the game quite a bit. The introduction of George Glenn, the first Coordinator, and the many amazing accomplishments he achieved, and the contributions he made to humanity. But as with many new ideas and philosophies and technologies, humanity has to go through a growth period and adaptation to sort out the new paradigm. Right now, that's focused in the Normals vs. Coordinators conflict plaguing the human race...

And the Jupitress! I squee'ed!

The Archangel's doctor also explaining to the Heliopolis kids about how extensive and improved Coordinators are over Normals, both mentally and physically. The fact that Kira's Coordinator body could survive atmospheric entry in the Strike, where a Normal wouldn't have survived, was eyebrow-raising.

Episode 14 also starts the 2nd opening credits. Pretty neat, glad they've changed it up with the story setting now moved to Earth.

Cagalli's back in Episode 15! I wanna know more about this girl!

Next up: Episodes 16 thru 20!

[flamingtroll]

By the way, as you have watched the series, and as you continue, I want you to think about how Unicorn may have adopted some of SEED's tweaked/original elements for its own for some scenarios/characters.

I think Banagher is getting quite a bit of Kira's "do no wrong" slack in UC anime, more so than the novel. Like how instead of killing Giboa by accident, but nevertheless in rage and in an attempt to blow up the Garencieres, he just killed him unintentionally with a questionable stray shot. And from the hearsays, at Dakar:

Spoiler

Riddhe is the one who pulled the trigger to kill Roni in episode 4, which isn't the case IIRC from the novel. It was Roni having a newtype moment with banagher telling him to stop her father's destruction of Dakar. Banagher wasn't even fully awared that she was in the MA.

and of course the rather unbearable ending in the novel where Nahel Argama "almost" pulled a Three ship alliance type of attack:

Spoiler

Nahel Argama single-handedly defeated almost all of the rest of Neo Zeon. FA Unicorn and Kshyatriya took down almost all of their gaera dogas and Gazas on their own. The only difference is that they didn't "disable" them. I personally find that even less bearable than the newtype magic blocking colony lazers

[Wingnut]

And oh boy, did Kira mess up the Duel Gundam and Yzak good! (With the pig-sticker knife again! Hahaha!)

The show gets a surprising amount of milage out of those things I will say that.

Flay, Flay, Flay. What a monster she's turning into. Pretending to care for Kira, to show romantic affection, just so she can use him as her secret killing machine, to murder as many ZAFT/Coordinator people as he can for the sake of her revenge. And blaming Kira for the death of her father. Smiling when Kira's lost in his grief and anguish over the death of the civilians on the shuttle. "You're to fight, and to fight, and to fight, until you die. It's the only way I'll forgive you." *shudders in horror* She's truly a monster.

He he he he. Just you wait.

Anti-beam depth charges - what a very neat idea! Temporarily deployed I-fields, essentially, if I'm seeing that right. Very cool.

Yep. More or less small scale versions of the gas dispersing missiles that the EFF used at Solomon to null its beam cannons.

Cagalli's back in Episode 15! I wanna know more about this girl!

All in due time.

[LightningCount]

Thanks for the updates!

The aftermath of Kira's unauthorized launch in the Strike and liberation of Lacus was amusing and surprising. Natarle being her usual hard-nosed self, serving as the prosecutor, is no surprise. Watching poor Mu trying his best to defend Kira, flipping through law books, and them haggling over whether even taking Lacus as a "hostage" was even legal was strangely amusing. Though Ramius scaring Kira with that death sentence remark was shocking (and unnecessary, in my opinion)...Oh, and the most advanced warship in a future computerized information/space age society has a LIBRARY of printed books? How quaint ...Some nice character bits in these episodes...

SEED recognizes that need for a balance between the personal development, political development, and the action, and does so in a variety of ways to highlight nuanced human activity (like this trial scene where Mu is just struggling). I don't often feel cheated in the original SEED, because I feel like I've gotten to delve sufficiently into the cast and world. Sometimes it can be melodramatic or goofy, but it works well to make the series more rounded and human than some other Gundam series, which seem to do it more as an afterthought. Particularly some of the earlier Tomino works, IMO, come off a bit rushed or stilted in their human interactions. But maybe that just has to do with the mainline UC characters being more jaded and damaged more often than not, and/or their metaphysical Newtype tensions. I haven't seen Turn-A yet, but SEED and X do things in a very social human way, and Wing and G generally present human interaction/development in a more subtle, contextual, non-verbal way because of the intense nature of the pilots and worlds. UC, outside of OVAs like 0080 and 08th Team, tends to feel more helter-skelter in the way it handles its characters' humanity. That's just my impression, though.

And wow, does the Archangel have some very impressive armor! The Blitz was just blasting and pounding and blasting and pounding and only managed to make a dent before Kira showed up and drove Nicol off.

I think this is at least partially true. Some of it may have been the anti-beam depth charges. But I think, more likely, some of this had to do with SUNRISE getting used to using CG. I think they get better at battle damage effects on ships as time goes on--certainly this is the case by the time of Destiny.

And that battle in Earth orbit was very exciting and intense! And pretty scary, seeing only 4 Gundams literally decimate a huge fleet of ships. Then came the atmospheric entry... and angry psycho killer Yzak shooting down the shuttle with the Heliopolis civilian refugees, including the cute little girl who gave Kira the origami flower...Kira later loses it, just breaking down in total anguish over what happened to those people...

Nice to see an on-screen example of the reason why Gundams are so special. Some series do it better than others. The conclusion to this episode really reminded me of the end of Unicorn episode 3 (or vice-versa, I mean).

Episode 14 is the first recap episode, but done differently and with some neat stuff - essentially, a history lesson of the Cosmic Era universe mixed in with the episode clips.

Yeah, SEED and much more so Destiny are infamous for clip episodes. It is one of those "flaws/shortcomings" I've vaguely noted. However, as you have astutely noticed, not all the clip episodes are total wastes. You gotta pay attention for the secrets they hold to key, otherwise unaddressed questions (unfortunately, there are still some irksome questions relegated to manga). Regardless, there are a handful of clip episodes between both series that give extra background information on the world/characters and/or slightly nudge forward the plot that make them worth watching. This one you saw was particularly useful...and if I recall correctly, wasn't there a little, ever-so-subtle development/quirk about Rau done non-verbally in the visuals? Without saying much in case I'm wrong, did they show something in his office/possession that starts with the letter "P"? (I thought they did and that you would have been curious about that...).

Episode 14 also starts the 2nd opening credits. Pretty neat, glad they've changed it up with the story setting now moved to Earth.

Yep, the opening credit changes are frequent and fun. Speaking of the earlier one and the fan-service, I have a theory. While it may just be fan-service, I think it connects to the themes of "genetics" and "temptation" in this series. There have been rumors that Gundam SEED was originally going to be called Gundam Sin. Irregardless, I wonder if the floating woman, whether it be Murrue or Flay or someone else, was a symbol for Eve, motherhood, and/or the cycle of life. Alternatively, I just take it to be an artistic representation of the raw emotionality of this series in its tangled love stories. Otherwise, and most obviously, it's probably just fan-service.

Next up: Episodes 16 thru 20!

Really good stretch! Like I've said, I was resistant to this series due to its 0079 similarities, but this stretch helped to convince me to stick around the very first time through even in spite of that. Although, somewhere in the 30s (maybe between 33 and 34) is where I said, wow, I'm impressed and need to see what happens next ASAP.

PS: the "pig-sticker" knives (AKA "Armor Schneider" combat knives) of the Strike are one of its most memorable and iconic armaments, I think. Very useful in a pinch, and serve as a new-ish twist to MS combat.

[PrissAsagiri UK]

Responding to your observations in no particular order...

Flay at this point is the token Blue Cosmos sympathiser of the visible cast, existing as an unsubtle reminder of the significant degree of hatred for Coordinators among many Naturals which you've never know existed thanks to how freely virtually every other member of the main cast interacts with and accepts Kira. She's also (with the death of her father) the member of Kira's circle of friends most personally invested in the war, and - tragically - the one most totally lacking in power to do anything about it herself. Compare and constrast with Athrun - both the children of high-ranked officials, both of whom have lived comfortable lives, both of whom have lost a parent to this war, and unlike Athrun, Flay can't - literally can't - take the controls of a mobile suit and go to war herself. Hence Kira as the sword she raises against the Coordinator menace, her manipulation of him the only power an otherwise powerless young woman can exert.

Natarle wears a lot of different 'hats' at this point in the story, doesn't she? And it's often in response to Ramius. When Ramius makes a decision based on her own sense of righteousness, Natarle plays by-the-book and offers the 'military' solution. When Ramius plays good cop, Natarle takes it upon herself to play bad cop. When Ramius is indecisive, Natarle is bold and direct. By about episode 13 I was left with the impression that Natarle would really like to be the Archangel's captain - she harbours no particular ill will towards Ramius but doesn't think Ramius' involvement in the mobile suit project really qualifies her for command of a warship, Natarle is a career fleet officer and can't help but see Ramius as a glorified mechanic. But of course Natarle is career fleet, very professional, very military, wouldn't think of making any kind of play for command against someone who's clearly and officially her superior officer even in the somewhat ad-hoc command structure and unsupervised environment the Archangel finds itself in after escaping Heliopolis. That doesn't stop her from acting defiantly when she feels Ramius is making the wrong decision, which is often, and there may be a bit of acting defiantly for its own sake mixed in there too. And as much as Ramius is frustrated by Natarle's attempts to subvert or defy her authority, she also recognises that she sometimes needs and relies upon those traits, those sharper edges and harder attitudes.

Lacus is another character who wears a lot of hats - the idol, the dainty princess, and then, out of nowhere, the Voice of Command. Which of those is the 'real' Lacus, which the one she wants to be, which the one she feels she has to be? It's hard to say at this point, but to have her spring her most commanding persona like that towards the end of her screen time in this arc is a great way to introduce her. I'll say that while she does wear the hat most appropriate to the situation, that doesn't mean she's manipulative or insincere.

You can actually see the origins of the Naturals vs. Coordinators conflict in today's debates over the ethics of cloning, genetic manipulation, stem cell research, etc. - the self-declared Natural identity arises initially from a desire to protect the sanctity/purity of an unaltered humanity with unmodified genes, it's less about feeling threatened by the fact that Coordinators possess superior capabilities and more about believing that their very existence is unnatural and wrong. Widespread resentment of those superior capabilities themselves, and the fear that recognition and resentment brings, comes later (although still prior to the start of SEED).

Similarly the Coordinator identity isn't initially one that is 'anti-Natural' but is concerned more with the ambitions and collective destiny of Coordinators alone. SEED tends to present anti-Natural rhetoric and sentiment explicitly as something that arises from the actions and attitudes of Naturals towards Coordinators, there's isn't a built-in anti-Natural streak in early Coordinator philosophy, nor any sense that the idea of Coordinators becoming the new standard for humanity and rendering Naturals obsolete is something promoted by Coordinators rather than a product of Natural paranoia, nor even a sense that there was a unified Coordinator political identity until violence and pressure from Naturals forced a kind of solidarity that eventually evolved into PLANT/ZAFT.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

If im not mistaken PLANT also contains Naturals who have Coordinator kids...

One would think, but the show (and supplemental material) is conspicuously silent on the matter. It still boggles my mind how so many Coordinators are shown to be so rabidly anti-Natural when they basically all have parents or grandparents who are Naturals. They gloss this over by only featuring second-generation Coordinators (with grandparents going unmentioned) except for Kira (explicitly identified as a first-generation Coordinator), who doesn't share the rabid Natural-hate anyway.

SEED tends to present anti-Natural rhetoric and sentiment explicitly as something that arises from the actions and attitudes of Naturals towards Coordinators

I would disagree. The vast majority of anti-Natural Coordinators that we see are of the opinion that Coordinators are simply superior to Naturals. Their attitude is "we're better than them, so we should get our way", not "we have to deal with them before they wipe us out". The Coordinator attitude toward Naturals is contempt, not fear.

[PrissAsagiri UK]

I would disagree. The vast majority of anti-Natural Coordinators that we see are of the opinion that Coordinators are simply superior to Naturals. Their attitude is "we're better than them, so we should get our way", not "we have to deal with them before they wipe us out". The Coordinator attitude toward Naturals is contempt, not fear.

Yes, but we're seeing these attitudes in CE 71, after decades of violence against Coordinators and, critically, after the consolidation of Coordiantors to L5 and the independence of PLANT. The very collective "we" in "we're better than them" is itself a product of that violence - would there even be a 'Coordinator nation' if not for the wave of violence directed against people who shared no other trait save their Coordinator status?

Consider that, as mentioned upthread, the term 'Coordinator' is applied to refer to any degree of genetic manipulation, even cosmetic - we're looking at a disparate population from varied backgrounds with just as varied genetic modifications, millions of people with nothing in common other than their Coordinator heritage and no reason to reach out to each other and think of themselves as "we" or "us" until the forerunners of Blue Cosmos handed them that reason in the form of violence directed against them because of their one shared trait. I think the mass migration to L5 provided both the spatial isolation and sense of safety-in-numbers for the "we" of a Coordinator nation, of a segregated Coordinator population distinct in self-identity from Earth nations and Naturals, to arise - and that migration is consistently painted as a reaction by Coordinators to the threat of violence.

This isn't to say that individual Coordinators wouldn't possess the contempt for Naturals you're describing - merely that it would most likely be at an individual level and aligned to a Coordinator's own goals, not "we're better," but "I'm better." But I don't think the timeline of CE allows enough time for the collective-Coordinator equivalent to a national or racial sense of superiority to have arisen (pardon the pun) 'naturally' by CE 71 without the outside pressure of Natural-on-Coordinator violence.

I also think it's worth separating the attitudes of Coordinators to individual Naturals from their attitudes towards Naturals as a whole, as embodied by the Earth Alliance. Individually, Naturals are readily regarded, as you say, as objects of contempt - they're slower, less intelligent, and all-round less capable than Coordinators. As a whole? 'The Naturals' annihilated Junius Seven, slaughtered hundred of thousands of civilians, and despite the depletion of their technological and industrial base by the pre-war outsourcing of manufacturing to the PLANTs and early-war mass-deployment of Neutron Jammers, as of the start of SEED continue to wage a brutal and sustained war against PLANT and the Coordinator populaton. So while an individual Natural may be dismissed with contempt, I think fear of what the Naturals are capable of is definitely a motivating factor for Coordinators - fear of a Natural-orchestrated repeat of Junius Seven if nothing else.

[Zeonista]

The aftermath of Kira's unauthorized launch in the Strike and liberation of Lacus was amusing and surprising. Natarle being her usual hard-nosed self, serving as the prosecutor, is no surprise.

As noted elsewhere, Natarle nde Murrue have counterbalancing personalities. They are effective together, in their own way. Natarle is definitely hard-nosed, but fair, so she really does not turn out to be as big a jerk as she could be.

Though Ramius scaring Kira with that death sentence remark was shocking (and unnecessary, in my opinion). Thankfully, she brushed it off because Kira's a civilian. And gave no punishment at all.

She wasn't being cruel or easy on Kira. The court-martial was a lesson to Kira in taking actions without considering the consequences of those actions, and any offenses that might be given to The Powers That Be. It's not often we see a Gundam hero held to that legal standard. Easier to just smack the little punk and put him in the brig for a bit until he cools down. And by having the court-martial, Murrue dealt with any overt bad feelings Natarle might have had about an otherwise convenient resolution to the hostage dilemma. Also...remember this scene in a few episodes further on, once Archangel finally reaches JOSH-A base.

Oh, and the most advanced warship in a future computerized information/space age society has a LIBRARY of printed books? How quaint.

Don't knock the written word, it is more permanent than this effervescent data appearing before your eyes here. Plus you don't have to boot up a book, or wait for the connection or download. Open, search, read. Not so hard...unless you are a first-time emergency appointed defender.

And oh boy, did Kira mess up the Duel Gundam and Yzak good! (With the pig-sticker knife again! Hahaha!) That psycho killer jerk had it coming... too bad the results of that battle send the whackjob even more over the edge and causes more horror.

Yzak is a classic Gundam case of the pilot taking the agitprop to heart, although his own feelings of superiority get in the way as well. It's worth pointing out here that Yzak was originally supposed to be a cool, laid back sort of person. The seiyuu for him wanted to do a different take, persuading Director Fukuda that an aggressive, hot-headed persona would make for a better character. Mama's little bishie gets his Irish up.

What's with Yzak constantly calling Nicol a coward?

Nicole is the least martial of the four ZAFT Gundam pilots. He is technically a good MS pilot, but has no killer instinct, real or acquired. Nicole feels with some justification that he only received the red coat because of his father's position. Compared to the others he is not aggressive at all.

And perfectly willing to let him and the other kids from Heliopolis go if they wanted, despite Natarle (sigh, Natarle...) suggesting to Admiral Halberton that the Earth Alliance military kidnap (oh, I mean "take into protective custody" ) Kira's parents to force him to stay in the military.

Eyes on the prize, that's our Natarle. Remember that Kira is not really an EAF citizen. Heliopolis was an Orb colony, more about them coming up.

And that battle in Earth orbit was very exciting and intense! And pretty scary, seeing only 4 Gundams literally decimate a huge fleet of ships.

Just in case you the viewer had any doubts left about how good the ZAFT pilots and their Gundams are...

Then came the atmospheric entry... and angry psycho killer Yzak shooting down the shuttle with the Heliopolis civilian refugees, including the cute little girl who gave Kira the origami flower. The very shuttle he'd have been on himself if he hadn't changed his mind and decided to stay to pilot the Strike.

This is a big moment for Kira, and ironically enough for Yzak, who doesn't know he's just committed an atrocity. Kira finally "gets it" about the inherently cruel nature of war, and takes the gloves off.

Flay, Flay, Flay. What a monster she's turning into. Pretending to care for Kira, to show romantic affection, just so she can use him as her secret killing machine, to murder as many ZAFT/Coordinator people as he can for the sake of her revenge. And blaming Kira for the death of her father.

Flay was impressed by Kira's ability with Strike, and really hoped he would make things A-OK, hence her anger when he was not able to save Daddy and make things better. Even worse, he was protecting the ZAFt bimbo, and that's just unacceptable to her. So now she has a chance to influence Kira to hate the Coordinators like she does, and turn him into her champion. So she takes the chance, and reels him into OMNI, and a greater role in the war than he wanted before. (Actually, he was headed that way himself already, Flay and the wasted shuttle give him a big push.)

She's clearly using Kira for her own selfish, psychologically broken ends. I guess I'm wondering how much of what she says and does now is genuine, and how much is manipulating Kira and the others.

PrissAsagiri UK did a god job of explaining Flay's motives and methods, so I'll leave it there.

And poor Sai, getting kicked to the curb by Flay. Well, he's better off without her (or at least we the viewers know he is). There seems to be an awful lot of arranged marriages and pairings in this series.

No, poor Sai is not feeling better off, nor will he once he finds out about it. He really likes Flay, and her transformation was unexpected. Fir the record, arranged marriages are still common in Japan, whether as a formal alliance or just a planned match between possibly compatible young adults. It's not really medieval anymore, it is seen as being convenient most of the time by the arranged partners, and not seen as negative or proof of the lack of ability to find personal happiness.

Lacus doesn't show up much in this run of episodes, but what time she does have is actually rather nice. Her heart to heart with Athrun was nice - she's actually compassionate and concerned about him and Kira and what they're going through. Not so much with the cutesy ditzy stuff this time.

Once again, do not discount the Pink Princess. She is not in love with Athrun, but she likes him a great deal, and she doesn't want the nice boy who made her a Haro to be swallowed up by the war, and be filled with bitterness and regret.

Episode 14 is the first recap episode, but done differently and with some neat stuff - essentially, a history lesson of the Cosmic Era universe mixed in with the episode clips. The introduction of George Glenn, the first Coordinator, and the many amazing accomplishments he achieved, and the contributions he made to humanity. But as with many new ideas and philosophies and technologies, humanity has to go through a growth period and adaptation to sort out the new paradigm. Right now, that's focused in the Normals vs. Coordinators conflict plaguing the human race...

Episode 14 is the first and best of the recaps, since they explain why everybody gives a damn about Coordinators. Nicely done!

I believe that George Glenn meant only good when he did the big reveal about Coordinators, using himself as the ultimate example of their ability to unlock human potential to its fullest. The backlash against Coordinators and their exile from Earth was an unforseen (or naively ignored) consequence of many otherwise decent people deciding that scientific progress had "progressed" too far. Also, Coordinator gene therapy was expensive, and many people on Earth were afraid that Coordinators would not become levelers or leaders, but a new elite of masters destined from birth to dominate their poorer, less gifted brethren. "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

The early Coordinators, frustrated at their rejection by Earth at large, decided to start over in space...and not to let petty prejudice stand in their way. PLANTS is something they can be proud of, but they got to be rather proud of their special status and accomplishments. Some of them, including the Clynes, have started to feel that maybe they've gotten too proud about themselves.

[Black Knight]

Episode 14 is the first recap episode, but done differently and with some neat stuff - essentially, a history lesson of the Cosmic Era universe mixed in with the episode clips. The revelation and explanation of the N-jammers, rendering nuclear reactors and weapons useless, following the nuking of Junius 7, helps set this series' setting apart from UC Gundam. There isn't just a piece of paper saying that nukes can't be used, now it's a technological possibilty - changes the game quite a bit.

Note, however, that N-Jammers were deployed worldwide, and even impacted the nations which had aligned with the PLANTs. And these impacts? The under-emphasized April Fools Crisis. Frankly, I'm amazed any nations on Earth were at all sympathetic to the PLANTs after they had their economies destroyed and millions (or billions) of people starve to death. This is the PLANT's version of the One Week War and mass slaughter of civilians, including those of allied nations.

But it also shows, IMO, the crippling weakness of ZAFT's military strength, in that even having rendered useless the entire economy of Earth, they couldn't defeat the Earth Alliance.

The Archangel's doctor also explaining to the Heliopolis kids about how extensive and improved Coordinators are over Normals, both mentally and physically. The fact that Kira's Coordinator body could survive atmospheric entry in the Strike, where a Normal wouldn't have survived, was eyebrow-raising.

I just wanted to highlight this in reference to Priss's point about any genetic manipulation being dubbed "a Coordinator". I'm not convinced that's true, as this doctor implies that there's a standard "Coordinator package" of genetic manipulations, which is what allowed Kira (and would allow any other "Coordinator") to survive reentry in Strike.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Individually, Naturals are readily regarded, as you say, as objects of contempt - they're slower, less intelligent, and all-round less capable than Coordinators. As a whole? 'The Naturals' annihilated Junius Seven, slaughtered hundred of thousands of civilians

And yet, what was the ZAFT response to this? As BK pointed out, they deployed N-Jammers across the entire planet -- including the territory of their supposed allies. For all that the Bloody Valentine is played up as an atrocity (and certainly, the deaths of 250,000 people is an atrocity), the April Fools Crisis resulted in the deaths of tens of millions on Earth. Put another way, the Coordinator response to the Bloody Valentine was to kill forty+ times as many Naturals (including their own allies) as Coordinators were killed. If they were afraid of the Naturals, then one of two things would have been logical: a) wrap the PLANTs in as many layers of defenses as they can assemble and blow anything that looks even remotely threatening out of the sky, or b) declare "us or them" and do their damnedest to annihilate the Naturals entirely. Instead they antagonize the Naturals by murdering millions (via the starvation and disease resulting from a sudden, total, worldwide energy crisis -- a much less pleasant way to go than being incinerated by a nuclear weapon or exposure to vacuum) and then follow up by invading the planet. This is not the act of a group fearful for its own existence -- it's purest hubris, and indicative of the Coordinator's overall arrogance when it comes to Naturals.

This isn't to say that all Coordinators are like that, of course. But given the events of the series (which I'll refrain from mentioning, in order to avoid spoilers), it seems clear to me that contempt for Naturals is much more prevalent among Coordinators than hatred of Coordinators is among Naturals.

[Burke Rukes]

Wow, everyone! So much great discussion about my comments and the points I bring up and questions I ask! The Coordinator vs. Natural topic is particularly fascinating - it's a little too early for me to cash in any serious thoughts on it yet, since I'm still learning and trying to understand the nuances of what's going on. I'm also shocked to learn that ZAFT burying N-jammers all across the Earth has wrecked the Earth economy and caused mass starvation and other problems, far beyond the nuking of one PLANT. I don't know what OMNI is yet... just please be careful not to put any big spoilers here, folks!

I watched episodes 16 thru 18 (great stuff) and hope to get 19 and 20 watched later tonight or sometime tomorrow, with my thoughts/review on them up here tomorrow.

Thanks again, everyone, for the great discussion!

[Black Knight]

Wow, everyone! So much great discussion about my comments and the points I bring up and questions I ask!

People like to help, and it's always refreshing to find someone for whom it's all more or less new. It's like helping someone remember how to drive, and basking in the new car smell.

The Coordinator vs. Natural topic is particularly fascinating - it's a little too early for me to cash in any serious thoughts on it yet, since I'm still learning and trying to understand the nuances of what's going on.

It really isn't ever covered in-depth, though you'll get some nice PLANT Supreme Council meetings sooner or later where the topic is at least raised, if not made terribly central.

I'm also shocked to learn that ZAFT burying N-jammers all across the Earth has wrecked the Earth economy and caused mass starvation and other problems, far beyond the nuking of one PLANT.

It's not really covered in the animation very well, more in the splatbooks that came out later, such as the official timeline (one version of which can be found at GundamOfficial).

I don't know what OMNI is yet... just please be careful not to put any big spoilers here, folks!

The military of the Earth Alliance is officially known as OMNI Enforcer. The acronym means something ridiculous, but it rolls off the tongue a little better than EFF or EFSF (European Financial Security Fund? What?)

[Zeonista]

Episode 14 is the first recap episode, but done differently and with some neat stuff - essentially, a history lesson of the Cosmic Era universe mixed in with the episode clips. The revelation and explanation of the N-jammers, rendering nuclear reactors and weapons useless, following the nuking of Junius 7, helps set this series' setting apart from UC Gundam. There isn't just a piece of paper saying that nukes can't be used, now it's a technological possibilty - changes the game quite a bit.

Note, however, that N-Jammers were deployed worldwide, and even impacted the nations which had aligned with the PLANTs. And these impacts? The under-emphasized April Fools Crisis. Frankly, I'm amazed any nations on Earth were at all sympathetic to the PLANTs after they had their economies destroyed and millions (or billions) of people starve to death. This is the PLANT's version of the One Week War and mass slaughter of civilians, including those of allied nations.

Yeah, it's a damn shame that EAF lost the capability to one-shot some more of the PLANTS, eh? Yeah, I get it, the response was disproportionate. And that's sort of the point. The bigots who thought it was damn clever to bring a nuclear weapon onto a warship and escalate a brushfire conflict into total war didn't think ahead as to whether or not ZAFT would go for retaliation, preventive or not. It's a bit late to say "oops my bad" after a colony burns, and hope ZAFT turns the other cheek, ne?

Then again, maybe the bigots did think of it, and decided that retaliation casualties were an acceptable loss to provoke the masses of Earth to rise up and demand a Final Solution to their Coordinator problem? It's a grim thing to ponder, but there are people in CE 71 who apparently have a grim viewpoint...

But it also shows, IMO, the crippling weakness of ZAFT's military strength, in that even having rendered useless the entire economy of Earth, they couldn't defeat the Earth Alliance.

As you are a soldier, you know the difference between causing destruction to the enemy and obtaining victory. One ought to lead directly to the other, but even an armchair general like me knows how often a tactical victory lacks follow-through to a big win. ZAFT has done much of the former destruction, but has yet to obtain the latter victory by episode 15. In the early part of SEED, ZAFT appears to have not obtained a decisive battle, or has been unable to create one on favorable terms. In some ways the inconclusive result on the battlefield is the result of the inconclusive political situation in PLANTS, where orders are issued. Should ZAFT play defense, or take an offensive stance?

The Archangel's doctor also explaining to the Heliopolis kids about how extensive and improved Coordinators are over Normals, both mentally and physically. The fact that Kira's Coordinator body could survive atmospheric entry in the Strike, where a Normal wouldn't have survived, was eyebrow-raising.

I just wanted to highlight this in reference to Priss's point about any genetic manipulation being dubbed "a Coordinator". I'm not convinced that's true, as this doctor implies that there's a standard "Coordinator package" of genetic manipulations, which is what allowed Kira (and would allow any other "Coordinator") to survive reentry in Strike.

I am inclined to agree with you here. Being a Coordinator is more than just being pretty, which is really only the accessories package of the Coordinator plan, sort of like a bonus feat. In the RPG sense, Naturals are random-rolled stats, luck of the dice on heredity. 4d6 & drop lowest for important characters, straight 3d6 for the fodder. Coordinators are point-build characters, with a base of 13 in all stats before points are added. As shown in the anime and the Astray side stories, not all Coordinators run to the same level of physical and mental ability, but as a whole they have an advantage over the Naturals by a range of 2-6, averaging +4 in stat bonuses...for starter characters. Yeah, that's a good enough stat boost to give them an edge on DC tasks or opposed rolls.

[Ceiling_Squid]

It's nice to see a fresh opinion on Gundam SEED, so long after it was out.

Gotta say, you're reminding me of everything I actually liked about the series. I may have to rewatch it sometime soon, it's been quite a while (though I remember liking it enough to actually buy the box-sets, so those are still sitting on the shelf).

While SEED was pretty decent, I think the general souring of part of the fanbase (at least, the circles I run in) to the Cosmic Era has come as a result of the glaring flaws of SEED's sequel.

That said, your initial impressions of Kira are mine as well. I really actually quite liked Kira in the first SEED, he was a nice kid, and quite stable for a Gundam protagonist. All the way up to the end I thought he was pretty likeable.

Agreement on the character designs. I generally hate the "pretty" standard anime characters with interchangeable faces that follow all of maybe three character models. It makes me really want to watch an anime where they actually deliberately diversify the character models. I suppose that finally a part of me has been sated in seeing Unicorn's older design aesthetic, but I'm still dissapointed that SEED started an unfortunate trend towards generic prettiness that carried well through Gundam 00.

Also agree with you on the suit designs. They look terrible on paper, but generally great in motion. Okawara's work looks just absolutely squat and boring, but when the suits are moving around the porpotions just seem much sleeker, more elegant. I really liked the early battles of SEED, and the series generally delivered on that part, with one caveat:

You aren't going to run into them right now, but I think the main issue I (and every other viewer) has with SEED is the recycled footage. This doesn't get more prevalent until the latter half of the series, but you can just smell the stink of cut corners. I recall, quite clearly, the same conspicuous "dramatic zoom out and away' shot of the Buster Gundam firing it's combined beam-bazooka. Every. Damn. Time. The. Thing. Is. In. A. Fight.

I love the Buster Gundam's design, it's a cool artillery suit. But I hated the fact that they had to use the same shot of it firing. It just soured me on what could have been a much better action sequence. Ships exploding are another major offender, seemingly having only a few stock explosions available. They even repeated a dramatic (and very easily-remembered) shot of a plot-important ship getting destroyed (won't spoil that one, if it hasn't come up yet), for a random mook-frigate later on. A part of me just said: they weren't even trying.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane, Burke. Damn it, now I gotta break out those DvDs.