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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:14 pm 
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Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
It was a quote from Red Dwarf. Let me make it clearer then. Amuro and Char be dead mon. No ifs, ands or buts.


Ah. Well now I just feel silly. However, I was talking more about the sparkly cloud thing that managed to drive back Axis, but enough of that. I think I've derailed the thread enough as it is. ^^;


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:29 pm 
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ChaosGhidorah wrote:
Ouroboric wrote:
I would say it's best to view the early UC for the meaning the Tomino was trying to get across as opposed to straight up entertainment value. Sometimes things may seem a bit off, or lacking detail and consistency, but it usually can be made sense of when you look at things on macro level rather than the micro level.


I suppose you're right, and if nothing else I guess you could always fall back on the good old MST3K mantra, something I kept in mind after having watched Char's Counterattack and the weird ZOINKS that happened there. Seriously, does anyone know what the heck happened at the end of that movie?

Still doesn't change the problems I had with the pacing or the fact that I really didn't like the characters though. About two thirds through the show I found myself realizing that I honestly didn't care that much about what happened to them. =P


I won't lie, 80's universal century people are not ones to invite to your party haha. I believe what happened was that Amuro's newtype will powered the psychoframes in the Nu Gundam and the remaining cockpit of the Sazabi, plus that little thing he got from dead Chan gave him more pyscho frames to work with.I would argue at the other GM's and Jegans who tried to help were futile and were just showing some good will and heroic action, and the Neo Zeon suits were doing their best to jump ship so they wouldn't have such a bad rap in the world to come,they were just being opportunists. Basically the notion that humanity can evolve and change for the better without radical action is supported, and that human good can triumph over adversity and misunderstandings, since that was the big ideological difference between the protagonists and antagonists up to that point.I always found it interesting how similar Char's argument with Scirroco and Haman in Zeta was to his argument with Amuro in CCA, only with him basically in Scirroco's place by CCA. In Zeta he says" but i can wait for the world to change", after seeing the federation let Haman drop the colony on earth and all their incompetence and neglect( plus some possible oxygen deprivation, who knows) he jumps ship and looses hope in humanity, and it's amuro saying " But i can wait for the world to change". Both the protagonist and antagonist side in the UC world represent an inner struggle within Tomino and how he views the world.
Ultimately we get a happy and positive ending, only for Tomino to go "jokes on you, people never change, the world is still doomed" by F91 and Victory Gundam. It seems he always fluctuates from this sense of impending doom, to having some hope in the good of people.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:33 pm 
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I am not sure why the rather self explanatory scene at the end of CCA would cause any confusion. Char specifically stated that the will of the people are converging and resonating on their psychoframes. That would probably include all humans, dead ( like Chan) or alive and possibly intelligent animals (like the elephant in the credits :D). It's jsut taking the newtype magic thing to another level that's all. There were unofficial "All There in the Manual" explanations on how the newtype magic works: something along the line of amplified brainwaves of people manipulating minvosky particles and causing stuff like enlarged sabers, temporary i-field barriers and minovsky craft type repulsion of the broken piece of Axis. This is by no means a new or strange idea, it's more like a mix of various sci-fi ideas that was popular at Tomino's time. It might have been more obvious and easily accepted back then.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:01 pm 
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Later material, including Gundam Unicorn, has suggested that the interaction of two psycoframes in close proximity is what allowed the physic-bending Newtype Magic to push Axis back into a stable orbit.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:34 am 
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Granted it's been quite a while since I last watched Char's Counterattack, which I only saw once, and while I did come to the conclusion that it must have been some type of Newtype magic at work I guess I wanted some kind of in story explanation to how it was possible. My memory is kinda foggy on that part but I guess I simply need to rewatch the movie in order to make more sense of it, but that would mean having to suffer through Quess Paraya's nonsense all over again. =P

I have heard talk about the resonating Psyco Frames around the net, but the bit about the people of Earth helping out is new to me and it would explain all the shots of random people on the surface. I guess I could think of the event as Gundam's answer to the Spirit Bomb, then?


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:38 am 
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ChaosGhidorah wrote:
Granted it's been quite a while since I last watched Char's Counterattack, which I only saw once, and while I did come to the conclusion that it must have been some type of Newtype magic at work I guess I wanted some kind of in story explanation to how it was possible. My memory is kinda foggy on that part but I guess I simply need to rewatch the movie in order to make more sense of it, but that would mean having to suffer through Quess Paraya's nonsense all over again. =P

I have heard talk about the resonating Psyco Frames around the net, but the bit about the people of Earth helping out is new to me and it would explain all the shots of random people on the surface. I guess I could think of the event as Gundam's answer to the Spirit Bomb, then?



I always felt it was the "newtype magic" combined with the constantly emerging newtype technology having unexpected results. I guess that sounds kind of vague but I am more than willing to accept that.


oh and on the general nature of this topic. I am re-watching now, and even from a pacing and action perspective this is a great show. So much happens every episode and I forgot how bad ass Amuro was during all his fight scenes. Battles are definitely not boring, and I would say they are all rather tense.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:24 pm 
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Hey all, first post.

Real quick, re: Char's Counterattack - I thought it was stated in the subtitles that the convergence of so many minds on one singular objective with the kind of dedication that had them sacrificing their lives was picked up by the Psycho-Frames in Amuro and Char's machines and overloaded them causing an explosion of telekinetic energy so forceful it pushed Axis back. But that was always my take on it. And I know Char says something about the Psycho-Frames reacting to the will of others.

Second in reply to questions asked on the second page of this thread, I'm 25 years old and my first experience with Gundam was, like so many, Gundam Wing on Toonami. I was instantly taken by the more realistic portrayals and more complex characters then typical cartoons I watched. However even 6thgrade me got sick of Gundam Wing around the time Heero fought Zechs in Heavyarms. So naturally I found the internet and Gundam project and all manner of other Gundam shows and through a combination of ebay bootleg VHS and the emergence of high-speed internet I expanded my love.

To date I have seen just about every animated Gundam incarnation except G-Gundam(Prolly won't even watch), ZZ(saw 7 episodes), Victory(20 episodes). Oh and I have never seen the original Gundam series, only the compilation movies.

On the subject of Zeta, I have to say I loved it when I first saw parts of it on bootleg anime VHS I got off ebay, I loved it when I saw it a second time on DVD, I loved it a third time when I showed my brother, and just two weeks ago I loved it a fourth time when I showed two of my friends who had never seen any Gundam. Over about two weeks we burned through the MSG trilogy and 50 episodes of Zeta. Loved every second of it.

I love Zeta just because it's a really well told story. The plot is fairly simple but I think the execution and economic storytelling is really what makes the show shine. Each episode is really dense and packed full of story and events. Really dense storytelling, every episode felt long, not drawn out, but long. Packed with character work, mobile suit battles, and plot advancement. The characters were all interesting to watch and I'm not sure I can agree that they weren't sympathetic at all. Kamille is my favorite of the Gundam pilots and I certainly sympathized with his conditions throughout the series.

It did lack what has become typical "Badass moments" where the characters pose and a popular japanese pop song plays but honestly that's something I could live without in every anime series. But I think the fights were really well done and interesting to watch and certainly captured a lot of tension between the relationships of the pilots, the music, and pretty stellar(for the time) animation. I can't really bring myself to complain about the level of technology used because what the Zeta team was able to accomplish with that level of tech as compared to fight scenes composed of re-edited stock footage like an episode of power rangers is really impressive.

It's absolutely my favorite, I saw a number of Gundam series before Zeta and some after and imo none of them have come close to matching or even rivaling it for the top spot.

EDIT: Also I dunno, I found the fact that the cast of Zeta persevered through the horrible depressing events of the series and seeing this atrocities hardened their resolve not just to end this conflict, but to open the eyes of everyone in the world to those horrors and fight to change them, imo it's inspiring. And the crushing bittersweet events at the end don't depress or turn me off. It's sad how Zeta ends for sure, but Kamille sacrificed everything fighting for what he believed in, and he believed in a better world then the one he had.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:55 pm 
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That is one thing i loved about Zeta as well, it's not nearly as showy as allot of Gundam, the pose,shoot uber weapon, watch 20 grunts stand still and die, kind of fights were so boring, and too much Focus is put on the duels. In Zeta it was very more of a full battle dynamic that took center stage, and it seemed like actually taking down an enemy was a way bigger accomplishment.And it was'nt uncommon for a protagonist pilot to completely fail in a battle. It made everything allot more lively and tense than a typical anime.And the music still gives me goosebumps. The only Gundam series that compete with Zeta is Turn A(being better by a bit) and Victory(being a bit worse) the three create the top tier for Gundam in my mind.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:13 pm 
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I personally think 0080 far surpasses Zeta, in everything from its storytelling, to mech fights, to character development. But to each their own.

I can't speak for the others, but when I complain about the fights in Zeta being "boring", I'm not saying I want them to be SEED-style showy fights with teenage pilots screaming high-minded ideals at each other while their invincible mechs shoot rainbow lasers while posing. I mean they aren't choreographed at all. Look at Unicorn, and in particular the Kshatriya's first sortie: that's not showy at all, but it's intense and exciting to watch. Zeta has plenty of high points, but the mech fights are really, really not one of them (imho).

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:23 pm 
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I'll agree on the fights.

In Zeta, as with many Gundam TV series, only about 15% of the fights actually mean anything. The rest are filler, a means to fill up an action quota. In general, I think that 52 episodes is too long for Gundam. If a 26-episode structure were used properly (like the first season of 00, for example), the result could be tighter and more focused.

Six-episode OVAs work, too. Neither 0080 nor Unicorn (so far) have extraneous fluff, which just plagues the television shows.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:34 pm 
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yyyyeah instead of twenty grunts standing still and dying, Zeta had three grunts standing still and dying, and then a named character from either side would stand still and stare into the center of a big beamspam explosion, and then the mobile suits would grope each other while the pilots scream at each other, and then they'd repeat, and then they'd go home, unless somebody dies, in which case only one of them would go home.

if i didn't have to watch to see whether or not someone would die, i would've skipped them, to be honest.

i should've turned it into a drinking game. i think i will.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:58 pm 
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^Yeah but that's taking the anomaly and turning it into the standard, there are lots of the well choreographed battles like the Jaburo drop all throughout the series, though what you just mentioned does happen every now and again, i will agree that 15-20% would fit the criteria you guy's are talking about, but your over-exaggerating it.


I do agree that Unicorn has far superior battles though, that opening attack was legendary.0080 was a good series, and had good battles as well, it's up at the top of the second tier of Gundam shows for me.

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Last edited by Ouroboric on Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Action isn't the same as choreography. Sure, the mechs DO stuff, but none of it is presented in an exciting, dynamic way. Usually, they just shoot their guns and fly around a bit (and sometimes not even that; I have in my memory a particular battle where it was literally a bunch of MS just sort of floating there while firing their weapons).

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:15 pm 
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Again i would use the Jaburo battle, and the battle at Chars and Katz launch shuttle as some examples were the choreography is done excellently. And i agree that yes that it does happen at times, but it was'nt like that every episodes, or most episodes. A battle that is exactly as you all mentioned would be Reccoca's battle, were she ends up being taken to Scirocco, it definitely does happen.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:32 pm 
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Certainly wasn't as exciting as its contemporaries. To this day I still remember watching the first episode of Layzner and going "Wow, this first battle is more exciting than any battle in SEED Destiny!" (remember I like SEED Destiny). Layzner had a lot of great fight choreography. I remember this one time when the Lazyner actually dropped and rolled across the ground to knock the legs out from under another SPT. Don't see creativity like that very often.

As I said before, outside of that one time Jerid almost took out Kamille in his Gabaldy, only the last few episodes actually got exciting for me.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:37 pm 
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One thing i found was that the battle in episode 50 was kind of lackluster when just viewing it on it's own,i would still rate the episode 80%(Scirroco's death did'nt even need a big battle, that final blow was so epic), Zeta seems to work best in long runs of episodes, were tensions are constantly being built up, because every time i watched the full series i would do 40-50 all together, and by 50 i would be extremely captivated by everything that was going on.

Also i can't deny that the dark and dense atmosphere and pacing, really enhanced every other aspect of the show for me, even the battles ( the music is a big part as well), so perhaps if my disposition towards that kind of aesthetic and epic scale was'nt so strong, i might of not loved the show as much as i did. I'll check out Layzner though, sounds interesting. I tried the first couple episodes of L.Gaim and had a really hard time with it.

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:24 am 
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I can agree that the battles in Zeta aren't the flashiest, but Kamille in the Mark II vs Jerid and Kakricon on the moon was an excellent well directed and choreographed(by the nature of the suits) battle imo. In addition to that Kamille vs Jerid's prior fight on the moon where Kamille is shown adapting to fighting on the moon mid-battle but Jerid was still able gain the upper hand. Jerid and Kamille in Jaburo was a great fight too imo. There are quite a lot of enjoyable fights in Zeta, it's still fresh in my mind and so many sequences come to mind. Yeah I can agree that the security on the Argama was kinda dumb and that there was a bit too much tackling but we all found the combat in Zeta very exciting and tense.

I agree the combat in Unicorn is vastly superior but honestly look at the time taken to produce each episode. Anything less then absolutely shocking and draw dropping would be unacceptable. Zeta Gundam was drawn by hand on a close to weekly schedule no? I really do feel what they achieved in the action in this series is quite impressive.

Ouroboric, I totally agree about the final battle though. The extra bits added to that in the Zeta movie(and all the Zeta movie battles) are pretty wonderful ways to add to those fights. I was personally disapointed that Char was basically a chump and I can't tell you how many times I shouted when he tackled Haman "Why weren't you holding a beam saber stupid" :P

Kratos 0080 is pretty wonderful. Of 08th MS, 0083, and 0080 I think 0080 is my favorite and the best told story. But it was a much smaller scale and focus and a way more personal tale showing a snippit of time in the war with a smaller cast. I feel like the OVAs and the 50episodes series are different monsters with vastly different conditions in production conditions.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:04 am 
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There were a few battles in Zeta that I did enjoy, namely the Jaburo drop and that battle on the moon (1x Gundam Mk-II vs 2x Marasai). Those battles made me actually like some of the grunt suits whose lineart had turned me off, but most especially for the Marasai. I can't say how well choreographed said battles were, as I don't really know what constitutes good choreography, but I guess it should be pointed out that the battles in Zeta might have a sense of realism. Real battles aren't choreographed. Bullets fly, stuff explodes, and random things happen. A lack of choreography may have been exactly what Tomino wanted.

At the same time, however, a battle without choreography can be a pain to watch on an animated show, and I'm not about to praise Zeta as having the most supreme battles. As I pointed out earlier in the topic, watching these battles or the second or third time usually gets tedious except for a rare few exceptions, but that is just my opinion of it. And, then again, instead of battlefield chaos, Tomino just had mobile suits flying around shooting lasers at each other and missing, or sometimes, as Shadow put it, groping each other, with a lack of random things occurring (I think Newtype weirdness happened enough in Zeta that it was essentially normal for Kamille to have visions hourly.)

Part of me suddenly wonders whether Zeta would've been better as an OVA instead of a series......

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:12 am 
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To Mac

As i said, maybe 15-20% of the battles suffer the things they mentioned, and sadly when working under the pressure of mainstream media you will always be forced to a few compromises.Yeah, I'm not sure what happened to Char near the end, i suppose he spent to much time on politics and fell behind the curve for mobile suit skill. Mind you,Haman and Scirroco were arguably piloting the most powerful mobile suits in the war in the last arc. I did enjoy how he denied Haman the chance to kill him, even when he's being a chump pilot, he is still a bad ass with allot of determination and will, and he did pretty well in CCA( his and Amuro's final battle is the best in the franchise imo), i think the point he was making about "the new generation" kids like Kamille having to survive to make a better world, and that his generation needing to be faded out, was supported by his piloting failures near the end.


For the battles i still think they work really well,when I'm done X(probably in a month or so,i have a hard time even doing one a day most of the time) maybe I'll go back to the series and see if my opinion has changed on the battles. But i have seen the full series at least 3 times, and the movies 2 times through.

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:52 pm 
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@Ouroboric

I can agree to that. I found the battles in Zeta engrossing and the drama and character work greatly enhanced the tension in them for me personally. As for Char, I blame the Hyaku Shiki :P cool as it was it was a glorified Mark II performance wise. As you said, compared to Quebely and The-O? It's impressive Char lasted as long as he did. And yeah stopping Haman from killing him was great, and he dodged her funnel storm with a damaged MS and still managed to tag her(Why weren't you holding a beam saber Char!!!!!)


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