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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:10 pm 
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AEUG Slapping Boy

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But we can be sure that the AEUG existed, and that the Titans new of them from Camille's interrogation in episode 1, meaning the threat was definitely there.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:03 pm 
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You know, maybe these characters in Zeta really aren't all that deep. Maybe they're all just jerks.


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:13 pm 
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the "you're all jerks" hypothesis does have its merits...


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:23 pm 
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ShadowCell wrote:
the "you're all jerks" hypothesis does have its merits...


Well, you really have to stretch to see Reccoa, in particular, as being anything more than what's on screen. Honestly, most of the characters seem to just revel in their douche-baggery through the whole series that I was kinda rooting for the body-count meter by the end there.

You can definitely tell this was written/produced during Tomino's "I hate all people" phase. But at least it had the nice designs of the Zeta, Hyaku Shiki, and Gun-DAMN Mark II. :P


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:47 pm 
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Don't forget all the hypocracy, notably Kamille's "How can you kill people so easily?!? DIE!!!!!"

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:01 pm 
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What can i say, Zeta Gundam is a harsh slap in the face by reality.Like in real life, for every 2 or 3 good people you know, you've met about 10 incompetent,selfish idiots. And the questionable personalities of the characters are instrumental for setting such a powerful atmosphere, and shows the effects that those kinds of space wars would have on people. I still get goosebumps from almost every main characters death, even if i was rooting to see it happen a few episodes earlier. Camille developed into a very mature and awesome person by the end of the series, and did his best to get past his own personal issues and look at the bigger issues in the world. Because after one see's all that real suffering and anguish, you realize having a girls name is not the worst thing that could happen to you. I'd agree that Zeta characters highlights are not being particularly deep people(no one in any Gundam series really is though), but they all have a great presence, are fleshed out well, and get across the point about human nature that Tomino was intending quite well.

For the hypocrisy thing, it's not like Camille took killing lightly, but war is war, and he really had no were to turn to but AEUG, and he had an obvious bias against the Titan, so I'm sure he valued their lives allot less than the average person, or people on his side, which is completely justifiable, some people deserve death allot more than others.Not to mention that the AEUG really were in no position to just let an enemy who could potentially come back with an even better mobile suit live, it's not like Camille was piloting some super robot like the Freedom or Wing Zero.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:57 pm 
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On reflection, Zeta was one hell of a cynical series. That's kind of a big handicap: Science fiction is at its most appealing when it's generally optimistic, and Zeta's very pessimistic. Even if the opportunity Gundam Wing created had been better handled and somehow sustained, I don't think Zeta would've ever gotten big here.

Zeta's main appeal stems, I think, mostly from its relation to the original Gundam. It was bigger, badder, had better animation and designs, and felt like a consequence to the One Year War. It was an excellent sequel, but the appeal of an excellent sequel can only be as big as the series it's a sequel to. And since the original series was never (and probably could never) be big over here, Zeta really had no chance.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:18 pm 
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Hello, I'm a new user here and thought I'd just throw my own two cents into this discussion as my first post. =P

One of my major gripes with Zeta, as has been mentioned throughout this thread several times already, is how completely unlikable a vast majority of the characters are. I'm not judt talking about their personalities, but the fact that a whole lot of their actions simply didn't make sense to me. It wasn't rare for me, as I watched the show, to litterally scream; "What the hell did you do that for?!" or "Human beings don't react that way!" and most commonly "Will someone just boot Katz off the ship already?!".

Sure, there were some characters I did genuinly like in the show (everytime Haman Karn showed up was pure delight) but I don't think I've ever seen a show with as many characters I dislike as in Zeta Gundam and if I don't like the characters a show is about, then it's pretty safe to say that I won't like the show itself.

And a little thing that I take issue with.

Ouroboric wrote:
Not to mention that the AEUG really were in no position to just let an enemy who could potentially come back with an even better mobile suit live, it's not like Camille was piloting some super robot like the Freedom or Wing Zero.


A lot of people from what I've seen are holding this show up on a pedestal due to how much more "realistic" the mechs are in Zeta compared to the more recent shows. I can't be the only one who remembers that, in the last few episodes, Camille is all of a sudden capable of supercharging his Gundam using the GHOSTS of his fallen comrades, with no previous foreshadowing whatsoever. As I watched those scenes unfold, all I could think about was Tomino waving his fingers in my face screaming; "Accept this! Accept this!"

Sorry to start off my existence on this board with such a negative post, but Zeta Gundam does that to me. ^^


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:35 pm 
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To be fair, he did it once or twice before his battle with Scirroco, Emma does mention it right before she dies. It is a tad inconsistent, but it was'nt all that flashy or overblown, the newtype consciousness of the fallen characters basically just froze The O, and Camille rammed him, it's hardly a Freedom Gundam "ultra missile/laser barrage destroying 100 enemy mobile suits but not killing one pilot" kind of crazyness. More so just Newtype potential awakening with the Zeta Gundam and Camille as he learns to really connect with others, even beyond the grave.I do agree it would of been better without that aspect, but the scene still gives me goosebumps and looks quite aesthetically pleasing, adding on to that "spiritual awakening/revelation in the most dire of times" vibe that i love about Zeta.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Didn't Lalah talk to Amuro after she was dead in the first series?


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:52 pm 
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Yes, right after she died and maybe even after that, she also was sneaking back into his dreams over ten years later. I recall Amuro actually saying that she was being "selfish" for possessing him and Char for all those years and not letting them go or something along those lines.I always thought the Newtype idea was incredible in how vague and multifaceted it was shown to be throughout the original 14 year saga of the UC, gave it a real sense of wonder, and made it seem like a plausible next step in human evolution.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:02 am 
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The UC series was already gradually developing the idea of a higher existence beyond time and space even in the original MSG with Lalah's "seeing through time" comment and the psychedelic 2001 space odyssey style trip for her and Amuro, so it's not really a big stretch in Zeta where the will of the dead is somehow attached to Zeta's biosensor. Unicorn actually goes further with this with Banagher's own Newtype trip near the end where he

Spoiler: show
not only communicated with Marida who was just killed, he also saw "through time", from the evolution of life on Earth to the images from the far future of Turn A and beyond(which I hope won't be somehow cut away). This is actually the best part about the overall sub-par ending of Unicorn.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:38 am 
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Ouroboric wrote:
To be fair, he did it once or twice before his battle with Scirroco, Emma does mention it right before she dies. It is a tad inconsistent, but it was'nt all that flashy or overblown, the newtype consciousness of the fallen characters basically just froze The O, and Camille rammed him, it's hardly a Freedom Gundam "ultra missile/laser barrage destroying 100 enemy mobile suits but not killing one pilot" kind of crazyness. More so just Newtype potential awakening with the Zeta Gundam and Camille as he learns to really connect with others, even beyond the grave.I do agree it would of been better without that aspect, but the scene still gives me goosebumps and looks quite aesthetically pleasing, adding on to that "spiritual awakening/revelation in the most dire of times" vibe that i love about Zeta.


From what I can remember, he did it exactly once in the episode before the one where he fought Scirocco.

Sure, being vague about what exactly a Newtype is capable of may give a great sense of mystery to some people, but to others it can come off as really hard to swallow without the proper foreshadowing. I mean it's a pretty big leap going from being able to sense and have semi telepathic conversations with other Newtypes, to being able to use the spirits of your fallen friends in order to power boost your mobile suit. I'm sorry, but considering the things that had been established before, it simply felt like that conclusion came almost completely out of left field to me.

It doesn't really help your suspension of disbelief either when characters kept saying that Newtypes aren't psychic througout the early shows, only to have them defy the laws of reality time and time again.

I've got to be honest, but the Newtype thing has been one of my main gripes with the UC shows since I don't think it's been handled very well. While the idea of having these psychic people that pilots giant robots in space can be really cool, I simply can't help but think that Tomino used it as an excuse for characters to do stupid things in order to advance the plot, end up in incredibly sudden and rushed romances or simply start doing incredibly extraordinary feats, with little to no foreshadowing at all.

Edit: I should probably mention that I have come to accept the whole Newtype concept as an integral part of the Universal Century, and that there are stuff about it that I do appreciate, but I simply have problem with how it's been executed most of the time. =P

With that said, I do agree that most other shows are guilty of having a moment or two that simply doesn't make sense. Like how the hell did Kira manage to survive the explosion of the Strike and get to Lacus' summer home at PLANT? The answer pretty much given in the show being; a blind priest that happened to be in the area decided to help him out... Wait what.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:53 pm 
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I always viewed as Tomino accepting how little people actually know, anything that's been made an absolute, and that people claim to have a full understanding off (outside of things we create ourselves) is flawed thinking, we still barely understand the forces of our world and universe. Newtypes were a new discovery, and obviously everyone is going to have a different idea on the matter until a leading discourse in thought is decided on the subject. Being a Newtype is all about human adaptation, evolution and unlimited potential, and basically rising to the occasion, Camille adapted his newtype power into crazy combat abilities out of the necessity of the Titans being defeated, were most initially just got the clairvoyance and telepathy because it is near impossible to really understand people who are that jaded and damaged, like everyone in the UC, without it.
The Newtype is kind of the hope for humans moving past our flaws and using our abilities for the better. In the show though, we noticed the level of possible newtype abilities rising, early in series it goes from Char and Amuro knowing that the other is there without seeing, to Four being able to move the pyscho gundam from afar, to Scirroco putting a pyschic pressure on people,etc. I'm pretty sure even Haman did some crazy newtype glowy thing before Camille did his final ghost attack, so the foreshadowing was there, as the stakes got dire and dire, more and more powerful abilities got utilized,, it just was'nt all from the same character. It's kind of the same as, "well if he has a knife, i'm gonna get an axe, if he has an axe I'm gonna get gun, if he has a gun I'm gonna ram him with a pyschic ghost attack" :lol:

I would say it's best to view the early UC for the meaning the Tomino was trying to get across as opposed to straight up entertainment value. Sometimes things may seem a bit off, or lacking detail and consistency, but it usually can be made sense of when you look at things on macro level rather than the micro level.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 pm 
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ShadowCell wrote:
the "you're all jerks" hypothesis does have its merits...

I believe Camille says as much once or twice. :) He gets a few disappointments handed to him during the story; his resilience in staying committed to AEUG and staying in the fight instead of running away screaming at times is worth saluting.

Ouroboric: I agree with you that in Zeta Gundam the jerks have gotten to be in charge, and it shows. I suppose there is a lesson to be learned there.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:54 pm 
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Ouroboric wrote:
I would say it's best to view the early UC for the meaning the Tomino was trying to get across as opposed to straight up entertainment value. Sometimes things may seem a bit off, or lacking detail and consistency, but it usually can be made sense of when you look at things on macro level rather than the micro level.


I suppose you're right, and if nothing else I guess you could always fall back on the good old MST3K mantra, something I kept in mind after having watched Char's Counterattack and the weird ZOINKS that happened there. Seriously, does anyone know what the heck happened at the end of that movie?

Still doesn't change the problems I had with the pacing or the fact that I really didn't like the characters though. About two thirds through the show I found myself realizing that I honestly didn't care that much about what happened to them. =P


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:16 pm 
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ChaosGhidorah wrote:
Seriously, does anyone know what the heck happened at the end of that movie?


Everybody's dead Dave.

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Everybody's dead Dave.


I know most of the characters died in Zeta, but I was reffering to Char's Counterattack. =P


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:14 pm 
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ChaosGhidorah wrote:
Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Everybody's dead Dave.


I know most of the characters died in Zeta, but I was reffering to Char's Counterattack. =P


Pretty much the same answer.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:41 pm 
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It was a quote from Red Dwarf. Let me make it clearer then. Amuro and Char be dead mon. No ifs, ands or buts.

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