Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Problem I had with most of Zeta's female is how, well, bitchy they are. The main ones like Fa, Emma, and Reccoa nagged all the time and none of them were particularly effective pilots. If only more of them were like Maour. Sigh.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Problem I had with most of Zeta's female is how, well, bitchy they are. The main ones like Fa, Emma, and Reccoa nagged all the time and none of them were particularly effective pilots. If only more of them were like Maour. Sigh.
Fa was a dumb kid without the natural talent of Kamille. (Or the Judo training and experience with those "Homo Avis" things.) Reccoa was at best SEVERELY damaged.

I'd like to have seen Emma be a better pilot and leader- she's actually had the training.

As far as the bitchy part, well your mileage may vary but thats a accurate reflection of my real life. /flame suit on.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Correct me if I'm wrong but is'nt Tomino a bit supporter of "traditional family values" and the like.
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I always felt like the fact that Fa lived in the end was a kind of pointer towards women ending up happier in the end taking a mothers role, like she did with the kids. Were women like Reccoca were doomed.
I don't know enough about what his actual views are to make any further speculation though.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Most of Japan has very traditional values.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Fall_Ryan wrote:
Destiny_Gundam wrote:Problem I had with most of Zeta's female is how, well, bitchy they are. The main ones like Fa, Emma, and Reccoa nagged all the time and none of them were particularly effective pilots. If only more of them were like Maour. Sigh.
Fa was a dumb kid without the natural talent of Kamille. (Or the Judo training and experience with those "Homo Avis" things.) Reccoa was at best SEVERELY damaged.

I'd like to have seen Emma be a better pilot and leader- she's actually had the training.

As far as the bitchy part, well your mileage may vary but thats a accurate reflection of my real life. /flame suit on.
It seems the characters in this show either hit home, or seem entirely distant, by what I've read in this thread.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Reccoa is kind of interesting. Sure, she has flimsy reasoning for leaving, but beforehand they do make it clear that she's perhaps only fighting for the AEUG because the life of a soldier is all she's known since the last war. She fell in with a group that would take her but at the same time was searching for something elusive in her life. That's a fairly adult view of the world. It doesn't make what she did right but as with Gato, I think fans make the character out to be more one note then she actually is.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

If Reccoa just wanted to get her kicks, that's fine. But then she goes on to spout stuff off about men and women and whatever. Just made her seem like a man hating bitch.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I think her gender rants were a side effect of her mounting guilt. She clearly wasn't cool with everything the Titans did, as evidenced in the scene of her sobbing after a gas attack. She realized what she was doing was wrong, but had already cast her lot with Sirocco and had less than zero intention of abandoning him.

Somewhere between realizing what she had become a party to and possibly even getting wise to Sirocco treating her like a pawn, she falls back on these weird gender dynamics to justify her actions and rage at the world of men who use and abuse poor little women like her. It almost sounds like she's trying to skip out on taking any blame when she starts babbling about women as tools. She's saying it's not her fault, that men and women are simply born and bred to act that way.

She didn't have much to say about it before because the AEUG didn't weigh on her conscience the way the Titans do, and she starts going insane with the realization of what a terrible person she has become.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

People in real life aren't entirely motivated by one set of idea's, and with the way people reason and create symbols and meaning out of things, it is more realistic to have a character with some irrationalities to them(hence why Zeta has such a great cast). Reccoca simply believed that men and woman were meant to be together "there are only two genders in the world", she obviously felt that along side with the adventure and kicks that she needed a male companion.And that while the adventure was fundamental to her happiness, that the kind of companionship was fundamental for everyone( the need for understanding on a deep level like that, beyond it's various physical forms are a key aspect of the Newtype theme throughout the early UC work). You also have to understand that Scirocco's abilities were off the chart, that kind of Newtype intuition,knowing just what to say to certain individuals, and massive will power (pressure as many called it in Zeta, just being around him in battle was a detriment to the enemy), he could easily draw a person who had little foundation into his grasp.She was not man hating at first, she fled from one man (Char) to another (Scirocco) based on impulse alone.Though i think she became disillusioned with her quest for happiness by the end of it, and the constant emotional stress of the war made everyone a little crazy and unstable near the end. Reccoca was just a victim of circumstances and her own emotional complex's, that a war leaves little room to properly take care of.
Imperial wrote:I think her gender rants were a side effect of her mounting guilt. She clearly wasn't cool with everything the Titans did, as evidenced in the scene of her sobbing after a gas attack. She realized what she was doing was wrong, but had already cast her lot with Sirocco and had less than zero intention of abandoning him.

Somewhere between realizing what she had become a party to and possibly even getting wise to Sirocco treating her like a pawn, she falls back on these weird gender dynamics to justify her actions and rage at the world of men who use and abuse poor little women like her. It almost sounds like she's trying to skip out on taking any blame when she starts babbling about women as tools. She's saying it's not her fault, that men and women are simply born and bred to act that way.
.
I would agree with this 100%,that's a good way to flesh out her character near the end of the series.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Imperial wrote:I think her gender rants were a side effect of her mounting guilt. She clearly wasn't cool with everything the Titans did, as evidenced in the scene of her sobbing after a gas attack. She realized what she was doing was wrong, but had already cast her lot with Sirocco and had less than zero intention of abandoning him.

Somewhere between realizing what she had become a party to and possibly even getting wise to Sirocco treating her like a pawn, she falls back on these weird gender dynamics to justify her actions and rage at the world of men who use and abuse poor little women like her. It almost sounds like she's trying to skip out on taking any blame when she starts babbling about women as tools. She's saying it's not her fault, that men and women are simply born and bred to act that way.

She didn't have much to say about it before because the AEUG didn't weigh on her conscience the way the Titans do, and she starts going insane with the realization of what a terrible person she has become.
I would agree with this also. I had always wondered why, after Reccoa joined the Titans, when Kamille confronted her she began to cry and... I can't remember the line... uh, she told him that he was a good person and he shouldn't have been fighting this war? Seemed a strange thing to come from a turncoat.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Thrawnm wrote: 08th MS Team is terrible for one thing, there's no ambiguity there. There's clearly an evil mad scientist with a hardon for Gihren Zabi and his little sister.
To be honest, that's a pretty one-sided denouncement of a character that that's far from the only interpretation of. You say Ghinius is pure, unambiguous evil, I say he's a much more difficult to categorize product of his circumstances who does evil things but isn't necessarily an evil person. Where exactly does it say he has a hardon for Giren and Aina as well?

Sorry for the thread hijack, felt the need to address this for obvious reasons.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I clearly can't speak for Thrawnma, but I agree with his general assessment.

Ghinius was a one-dimensional tool who could not have been any more stereotypically evil if he grew a giant mustache and spent his time stroking it like a kung fu villain. There is little to no depth to the character, who just rages about his creation like any generic mad scientist.

And, really, how can you say someone does evil things but is not evil themselves? Is a laundry list of evil actions not the measure of an evil person? The guy murdered left and right to suit his own ego.

Okay, so he's sick, but that goes nowhere. And, hey, there's that last minute line he has about love making his mother leave him...but it's so arbitrarily sudden as to make the revelation pointless. None of this deepens or defines his character in any way.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Aaaaand again, I think it's more than a little ignorant to insist that's the only way to read Ghinius (or any other character for that matter). Since I don't feel like typing a new giant psuedo-essay please read and consider this, and this.

I can elaborate more on what I think and why I think it if you want. Believe it or not there is a method to my madness :P

You don't have to agree with me, but I'd like to think my opinions and views are just as valid as yours.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Android raptor wrote:Aaaaand again, I think it's more than a little ignorant to insist that's the only way to read Ghinius (or any other character for that matter). Since I don't feel like typing a new giant psuedo-essay please read and consider this, and this.

I can elaborate more on what I think and why I think it if you want. Believe it or not there is a method to my madness :P

You don't have to agree with me, but I'd like to think my opinions and views are just as valid as yours.
Why are you assuming this is the only way I think he can be read?

Half the point of a popular form of entertainment is that it is open to various forms of interpretation. Only the writers of a particular character have any right to say how a character should be perceived, but even that is an imperfect system. As a writer, you give up a certain amount of control once you've shared your vision with a world that may not perceive it in the same way.

I'm simply seconding a lot of what Thrawnma has to say because I know he doesn't post here all that often. I don't presume to be his mouthpiece, but I do enjoy fostering discussion, even if I come off as a bit of a jerk.

Edit: Having read up a bit on those live journal posts, I'm not really buying into this idea that his being mentally ill excuses his flaws. It's an explanation, but it's also a literary cop out. Instead of giving him truly compelling motivations or character dynamics, the writers just saddle him with a case of the loonies.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I'm probably overreacting, but you kind of came off that way. I'm also a bit prepped for that reaction due to how many times I've gotten it in the past. Pardon.

Where did I say him being mentally ill excused his flaws? I thought I made it for it pretty clear that what he did cannot be justified or excused. I personally find his mental illness very compelling (and some things about it I relate to for personal reasons). Other people might not and that's fine. I don't think Norris is a terribly interesting character, but I'm not going to denounce the rest of the fandom because they feel differently (though I do take issue with the condemnation of Ghinius for being underdeveloped and then acting like Norris has the depth of the Marianas trench).

Different strokes I suppose. Carry on.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Obviously Wong Lee is the most well developed character, he went from hitting kids and yelling allot to.......oh wait never mind.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Christ, how hard is it to talk about ZETA in a thread about Zeta? We don't need anymore hijacking here. Android raptor, you need to cool it when it comes to Ghinius and not be so much of a fangirl about it. No one cares about Ghinius as much as you do, and you know that. Most people dismiss him as a one-note ineffective villain. You need to accept that and not rush in to his defense every time end up derailing the thread.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Back to Zeta, and the discussion on Reccoa......
I think her gender rants were a side effect of her mounting guilt. She clearly wasn't cool with everything the Titans did, as evidenced in the scene of her sobbing after a gas attack. She realized what she was doing was wrong, but had already cast her lot with Sirocco and had less than zero intention of abandoning him.

Somewhere between realizing what she had become a party to and possibly even getting wise to Sirocco treating her like a pawn, she falls back on these weird gender dynamics to justify her actions and rage at the world of men who use and abuse poor little women like her. It almost sounds like she's trying to skip out on taking any blame when she starts babbling about women as tools. She's saying it's not her fault, that men and women are simply born and bred to act that way.

She didn't have much to say about it before because the AEUG didn't weigh on her conscience the way the Titans do, and she starts going insane with the realization of what a terrible person she has become.

I never actually thought about it like that. This really sheds some more light on her. Reccoa is certainly more interesting than I thought.

However, it also gives me some more reasons to dislike her. As you said, she falls back on weird gender dynamics, it seems, to justify her actions and not take any blame, even though she clearly joined the side that committed the 30 Bunch Incident, and then went on to perform her own gas attack. While she did cry about it, and knew that the Titans weren't exactly in the right, she didn't follow up on her tears with anything. No sudden switch back to the AEUG, no real penance for her wrongs. Just some jabber on gender inequality.

I do suppose its sad that she was going insane, but it was sort of her fault. Don't take my comments too harshly, though. Its only my opinion of her. If Reccoa has a fan club somewhere, I won't hold it against them. She is just a fictional character after all.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I agree, Scorpius.

Reccoa is the one of my most hated Zeta characters for the very reasons you highlight: For all of her tears, she doesn't do anything about it. She just wallows in her sorrow and her twisted notions of the world viewed through the lens of an emotionally broken woman.

Granted, I suppose she was banking on Sirocco taking power and making the Titans "good" again, but she's been around Sirocco long enough to know what a cutthroat he is. In fact, it is Sirocco's manipulation of the women around him that probably influenced Reccoa's philosophy. She has seen firsthand how some men treat women.

Of course, I feel the need to point out that "insane" was a hyperbole on my part. I believe she had full control of her mental faculties in the end. She simply chose to ignore the truth and harp on these gender rants instead of owning up to all she had done. Her latter day character arc is denial as a coping mechanism.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Of course, I feel the need to point out that "insane" was a hyperbole on my part.
Oh, my bad. Thinking about it, I was pretty sure she could've been slightly insane, but I guess she was just.........I can't think of a good adjective to completely describe her. Oh well.

Getting off of the Reccoa bandwagon (since its easy to say why nobody likes her), I'm curious to hear more about people's opinions of the rest of the female cast. I've already heard that 'your mileage may vary' with many of them, and personally I liked Emma and Fa even if they needed help a little too much, but what is everyone else's opinion?
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