Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

[excalibur2008]

Murdering a baby for being related to someone who caused your family pain aint' exactly ethical.

Neither is befriending a guy for the purposes of murdering him later or planning to commit mass murder on a scale larger than ever known in human history.

[Kuruni]

Because by that time, he consider his revenge is completed and it's time to move on?

Note that killing Garma, even if he's also innocent in Daikun's death, has big emotional impact on the Zabi family. It's actually make sense if you think from the perspecive of someone whose main motivation is revenge - sometime you do something illogical and actually harm yourself, just because you want to see those guys grief.

[BrentD15]

I've got a serious two questions for everyone here:

1. How old are you people?

2. What was your first Gundam series?

These two questions may help explain why some people like Zeta better than others.

I'm 22 years old, and my first experience to Gundam had to be G-Gundam when it was airing late at night on Toonami (I was usually asleep by then).

[phillosmaster]

Zeta is a product of it's time. The issues people have with the show were omnipresent in the anime of the time (including the original Gundam). You've got to forgive all that and grade on a curve when comparing shows across generations.

The skeleton of Gundam and Zeta Gundam formed the basis for many of the shows that came after it. In one way, asking why is Zeta Gundam is so great is like asking why is Hamlet or Romeo and Juliet are so great. Even if you don't like those stories they are still great because they are historically significant. You've got to appreciate the impact it's had on it's genre and every show that's come after it.

Another way you could answer the question is by understanding for people who watched these shows in chronological order Zeta Gundam was a very fulfilling sequel. Zeta took that original Gundam series and said let's twist this all up. Good guys were bad guys, bad guys were good guys. Our old heroes don't overshadow the new cast but at the same time they are not completely hidden from view and are allowed to have a fulfilling impact on the continuing narrative. Zeta continues to builds on the story threads from the first series (new types, earth versus colonies, Char's politically struggles, the evolution of mobile suit warfare ...), while also exploring new ideas like the potential failures and pitfalls of post war reconstruction. For a fan of the original it's packed with exactly what you'd want out of a sequel. Zeta changed enough so that it is not just more of the same, but it didn't forget what it was people loved about the original. I admit there are bad episodes and bad characters that appear, but taken as a whole Zeta still gets me excited and moves me emotionally in a way that many other shows just can't. Part of that is because it's build on things I'll already loved about the original.

Zeta is still my favorite Gundam. I think the major reason might be that for me it managed to strike the right balance of showing the brutality of war and still presenting an enjoyable military drama. It doesn't completely miss the mark like Age does by making the sobering costs of war into something absurdly mockable. At the same time it doesn't beat us to death with the brutality the way War in the Pocket or Victory does to the point where it's not enjoyable to rewatch those shows because they are so difficult to watch.

Add: If we are still collecting stats I'm 35. My first Gundam was the original movie trilogy. I've seen every Gundam TV series except I never finished Reconguista.

[nhyalfhena]

Frickin truth-speaking by this guy above me. HEAR!

[Henyo]

I've got a serious two questions for everyone here:

1. How old are you people?

2. What was your first Gundam series?

These two questions may help explain why some people like Zeta better than others.

just turned 27 last month. first gundam would be Gundam Wing.

it was in a kids magazine(K-zone.) that i've read that Zeta is considered the best gundam series. it took me a few years before i actually got to watching it.along the way,i read the episode reviews and its TVtropes page.

the claim is spot on for me. to this day i still fee goosebumps whenerver i recall favorite scenes from Zeta.

[Amion]

Zeta is a product of it's time. The issues people have with the show were omnipresent in the anime of the time (including the original Gundam). You've got to forgive all that and grade on a curve when comparing shows across generations.

The skeleton of Gundam and Zeta Gundam formed the basis for many of the shows that came after it. In one way, asking why is Zeta Gundam is so great is like asking why is Hamlet or Romeo and Juliet are so great. Even if you don't like those stories they are still great because they are historically significant. You've got to appreciate the impact it's had on it's genre and every show that's come after it.

Another way you could answer the question is by understanding for people who watched these shows in chronological order Zeta Gundam was a very fulfilling sequel. Zeta took that original Gundam series and said let's twist this all up. Good guys were bad guys, bad guys were good guys. Our old heroes don't overshadow the new cast but at the same time they are not completely hidden from view and are allowed to have a fulfilling impact on the continuing narrative. Zeta continues to builds on the story threads from the first series (new types, earth versus colonies, Char's politically struggles, the evolution of mobile suit warfare ...), while also exploring new ideas like the potential failures and pitfalls of post war reconstruction. For a fan of the original it's packed with exactly what you'd want out of a sequel. Zeta changed enough so that it is not just more of the same, but it didn't forget what it was people loved about the original. I admit there are bad episodes and bad characters that appear, but taken as a whole Zeta still gets me excited and moves me emotionally in a way that many other shows just can't. Part of that is because it's build on things I'll already loved about the original.

Zeta is still my favorite Gundam. I think the major reason might be that for me it managed to strike the right balance of showing the brutality of war and still presenting an enjoyable military drama. It doesn't completely miss the mark like Age does by making the sobering costs of war into something absurdly mockable. At the same time it doesn't beat us to death with the brutality the way War in the Pocket or Victory does to the point where it's not enjoyable to rewatch those shows because they are so difficult to watch.

Add: If we are still collecting stats I'm 35. My first Gundam was the original movie trilogy. I've seen every Gundam TV series except I never finished Reconguista.

I nearly fully agree. And Zeta will always be my favorite, as well, though I've said it before.

I remember Zeta being so awe-inspiring because I watched it same time as Destiny. Guess which one hooked me? The new one with supposedly updated animation and storytelling themes or the relic from the eighties?

The old one. The animation was incredible for the time and still holds up if not outpaces other shows up to 00, like GSD, GS, X and possibly Wing, though they're awful close.

As for storytelling...well, 'nuff's been said on that front.

It's just that Zeta does still give me that thrill when I watch it that few others manage to. Despite that it still has its failures, that show retains a certain zing that few other shows I can think of retain.

[Rot_Kaiser]

I am 21 and I got into Gundam via bootlegs of Gundam X

As for my thoughts on Zeta? Well I find the series highly enjoyable as someone with intense anger issues and with Aspergers I found Kamille to be highly relateable for me on a very very personal level. The other characters well they tended to be selfish and at times dumb like real people. Meanwhile the action could get boring at times but its war not sports you cant expect every skirmish to be super intense and extreme for a third person perspective that we the viewers have even still we did get some awesome moments like the five-hundred mile rage saber and plenty of cool designs all in all its not my personal favorite but Zeta does have something for most viewers of Mecha anime and I can easilly see what draws people to it.
Why is it great in general aside from its reputation and mystique I think its the realism of the characters and the general level of maturity presented and I am not talking darkness but real maturity. In the original Gundam things got bad but mostly the white base crew found a way to save the day but Zeta shows us failure such as Jaburo and the colony gassing massive scale things beyond the crew on a bigger scale that we have to see the results of as well as the intense political focus showing us that the frontlines are not all that matters. More or less Zeta is a war drama that goes further to illustrate its point then 0079 but dose not just rely on the dark aspects there is still some comedy and a very human element that gives Zeta a sense of grandeur mixed with a more at home sense.

[Zeonista]

Another way you could answer the question is by understanding for people who watched these shows in chronological order Zeta Gundam was a very fulfilling sequel. Zeta took that original Gundam series and said let's twist this all up. Good guys were bad guys, bad guys were good guys. Our old heroes don't overshadow the new cast but at the same time they are not completely hidden from view and are allowed to have a fulfilling impact on the continuing narrative. Zeta continues to builds on the story threads from the first series (new types, earth versus colonies, Char's politically struggles, the evolution of mobile suit warfare ...), while also exploring new ideas like the potential failures and pitfalls of post war reconstruction. For a fan of the original it's packed with exactly what you'd want out of a sequel. Zeta changed enough so that it is not just more of the same, but it didn't forget what it was people loved about the original. I admit there are bad episodes and bad characters that appear, but taken as a whole Zeta still gets me excited and moves me emotionally in a way that many other shows just can't. Part of that is because it's build on things I'll already loved about the original.

All of this, yes. Zeta was the sequel that met and exceeded the standards set for it by the first show. The overall level of quality in its own right made it successful and interesting outside its allotted time in the Eighties.

I think the major reason might be that for me it managed to strike the right balance of showing the brutality of war and still presenting an enjoyable military drama.

Hadn't thought of it, but that is a good point. Heavy duty, but not overdone or reduced to trivial deaths.

[InjuredPelican]

I've seen Zeta three time snow, just having rewatched it within the last month. Each time I've thoroughly enjoyed it, each time a bit more. When I saw this thread it made me realize I didn't know how to explain it though. Every episode just grabbed my attention. Nearly every character really stands out to me. When it finally comes down to it the thing that really sticks with me is that is complicated. Most of Tominos works are, and I hold them as my top entries in the franchise, with Zeta at 2nd, only beaten by Turn A Gundam. There's just so much going on. I feel every character has so much going on under the surface. The war between the AEUG and Titans isn't just a matter of blowing up the other guy's stuff. Its decided by battles of course, but also by politics, economics, strategy, etc. The heroes don't win every sortie, and some times the villain complete their entire objective. This is one of my favorite Gundam shows also for a big reason. It is not a Gundam or two (or five) versus an entire army. Its an army against an army. It actually takes effort to take out enemy grunts, and Gundams can be defeated by non-Gundams (Yazan really stands out in this regard). Kamille may be the best pilot and a very important member of the AEUG but he is still just one more soldier in the ranks.

I also wanted to mention why I believe the Titans are largely represented by evil members, unlike how Zeon had noble and/or sympathetic characters in their ranks. I believe its because Zeon is a state military composed of any able bodied soldier, where as the Titans are explicitly an elite branch within a larger force. And its clear the Titan commanders get to choose who is on their team. Jamiacan even criticizes Bask for choosing to employ only Earthnoids and no Spacenoids, and that they were at a disadvantage against the more diverse and space savvy AEUG. (Which is most likely what leads to Scirocco becoming a member of the Titans.) In the episode during Char's speech in Dakar, the Titan that turns against them elicits this response from Jerid: "Where did they find you?" Clearly the Titans are very selective in who is accepted in their ranks. They need either malicious types like Scirocco and Yazan or at least compliant soldiers like Maou.

Overall the show has a great sense of history and world building I really appreciate. Things that occurred in MSG really carry over to this show, and this show further builds into ZZ and CCA. Zeta Gundam seems like a a real living world with real living people trying to make the best of what they got. The AEUG members are not all great people, but they set aside their own petty problems to unite under a greater cause. People choosing to be better than who they really are is pretty inspiring to me. And it ultimately cost them everything. The AEUG is pretty much destroyed by the end, Char is missing, Kamille is damaged to a horrible extent, and many of their comrades are dead. But the earth and space are now safe from the evils of the Titans. Its not just a tragedy, its a story of heroic sacrifice. Doing whats good and right doesn't always lead to a J-pop song and a happy ending.

[Amion]

I've seen Zeta three time snow, just having rewatched it within the last month. Each time I've thoroughly enjoyed it, each time a bit more. When I saw this thread it made me realize I didn't know how to explain it though. Every episode just grabbed my attention. Nearly every character really stands out to me. When it finally comes down to it the thing that really sticks with me is that is complicated. Most of Tominos works are, and I hold them as my top entries in the franchise, with Zeta at 2nd, only beaten by Turn A Gundam. There's just so much going on. I feel every character has so much going on under the surface. The war between the AEUG and Titans isn't just a matter of blowing up the other guy's stuff. Its decided by battles of course, but also by politics, economics, strategy, etc. The heroes don't win every sortie, and some times the villain complete their entire objective. This is one of my favorite Gundam shows also for a big reason. It is not a Gundam or two (or five) versus an entire army. Its an army against an army. It actually takes effort to take out enemy grunts, and Gundams can be defeated by non-Gundams (Yazan really stands out in this regard). Kamille may be the best pilot and a very important member of the AEUG but he is still just one more soldier in the ranks.

I also wanted to mention why I believe the Titans are largely represented by evil members, unlike how Zeon had noble and/or sympathetic characters in their ranks. I believe its because Zeon is a state military composed of any able bodied soldier, where as the Titans are explicitly an elite branch within a larger force. And its clear the Titan commanders get to choose who is on their team. Jamiacan even criticizes Bask for choosing to employ only Earthnoids and no Spacenoids, and that they were at a disadvantage against the more diverse and space savvy AEUG. (Which is most likely what leads to Scirocco becoming a member of the Titans.) In the episode during Char's speech in Dakar, the Titan that turns against them elicits this response from Jerid: "Where did they find you?" Clearly the Titans are very selective in who is accepted in their ranks. They need either malicious types like Scirocco and Yazan or at least compliant soldiers like Maou.

Overall the show has a great sense of history and world building I really appreciate. Things that occurred in MSG really carry over to this show, and this show further builds into ZZ and CCA. Zeta Gundam seems like a a real living world with real living people trying to make the best of what they got. The AEUG members are not all great people, but they set aside their own petty problems to unite under a greater cause. People choosing to be better than who they really are is pretty inspiring to me. And it ultimately cost them everything. The AEUG is pretty much destroyed by the end, Char is missing, Kamille is damaged to a horrible extent, and many of their comrades are dead. But the earth and space are now safe from the evils of the Titans. Its not just a tragedy, its a story of heroic sacrifice. Doing whats good and right doesn't always lead to a J-pop song and a happy ending.

Others keep expressing it better than me, but this is probably the best summery on the emotional outlook I took away from Zeta and its characters. I think maybe people who dislike Zeta simply can't see the world that way, and are thus turned off.

Then again, most of the people I know who dislike Zeta or UC in general are SEED fans. So it's no surprise they're not happy without J-pop.

[InjuredPelican]

@Amion

I know some people look for ideal characters/heroes in their fiction, and I understand that to some degree. I like idealism in superhero works like Superman and such. But for my war dramas I find Gundam's more imperfect take on humanity to be very interesting and more appealing in the long run.

One thing I also find fascinating about Tomino's Gundam works in particular is how characters cannot be read instantly and also lie and misrepresent themselves to the audience and other characters. Its so rare to see that in fiction even though it happens in real life all the time. That's why I find Reccoa perfectly believable. She has her own reasons for how she acts, but she might not have them truly figured out. But she puts up some kind of front of being strong or believing in some higher ideal anyways, or blames others for her own mistakes, cause its easier than to face up to her own weakness or insecurities. Scirocco sees right through this and that's a major reason why he can manipulate her.

Its also interesting that Scirocco could read her so easily and yet fail to read Char. He says Char is too emotionally tied to humanity to be a true Newtype. And yet throughout Zeta and even worse in CCA Char demonstrates he doesn't know how to deal with his own emotions and has almost no ability to sympathize/empathize with others. One of the saddest things to me about Char's tragic development is how he effectively becomes Scirocco, using his charisma and power to ruthlessly manipulate others towards violent ends.

[Amion]

Don't want to get off topic, but I really don't see the Scirocco/CCA Char parallel. Scirocco wanted to create some kind of empire ruled by an Empress under his control. Char wanted to destroy human life on Earth. One might be questionable and selfish, but dear Paptimus never wanted genocide.

As for Char's emotions, I suppose opening that can of worms isn't worth the effort. At any rate, he was yet another good thing about Zeta, more development for him.

Yes, the characters behaving like humans by lying to themselves is yet another point to the realism of the show. Viewers must read and weigh their actions versus their words. If that's not showing rather than telling, then I don't know what is.

[Zeonista]

There's just so much going on. I feel every character has so much going on under the surface.

Not so much in case of Katz & Yazan, but by and large yes, the characters have a lot going on and don't always show it. Character development means a lot in the story.

This is one of my favorite Gundam shows also for a big reason. It is not a Gundam or two (or five) versus an entire army. Its an army against an army. It actually takes effort to take out enemy grunts, and Gundams can be defeated by non-Gundams (Yazan really stands out in this regard). Kamille may be the best pilot and a very important member of the AEUG but he is still just one more soldier in the ranks.

A lot of Zeta fans (and real robot fans in general) like how the battles are not predetermined by the presence of Gundams on the field. Yeah, Camille is not allowed to develop an elite pilot ego or become a special snowflake because he can pilot a Gundam. He has to hold up his end of the mission, no excuses or face the punishment! It has results though when Camille follows through and becomes a trustworthy AEUG pilot. He doesn't become an officer either, he is just an ace pilot in the ranks.

I also wanted to mention why I believe the Titans are largely represented by evil members, unlike how Zeon had noble and/or sympathetic characters in their ranks. I believe its because Zeon is a state military composed of any able bodied soldier, where as the Titans are explicitly an elite branch within a larger force. And its clear the Titan commanders get to choose who is on their team.

That is a good and fairly accurate observation.

The AEUG members are not all great people, but they set aside their own petty problems to unite under a greater cause. People choosing to be better than who they really are is pretty inspiring to me. And it ultimately cost them everything. But the earth and space are now safe from the evils of the Titans. Its not just a tragedy, its a story of heroic sacrifice. Doing whats good and right doesn't always lead to a J-pop song and a happy ending.

Another good observation, Zeta Gundam is hard on its heroes, but then being a hero against the odds is hard. AEUG's mistakes cost the organization a lot, but they still succeed, and the victory is no less valuable through being dearly bought. The lack of "hero armor" adds a bittersweet flavor, but at the same time it makes the sacrifice win all the more precious.

[shinden]

I'm almost 41 now. I've seen so much and changed so much over the years, so I think the question of how old are you and when did you watch it may be relevant.

I saw the gundam trilogy in the mid -90's but only saw a little of Zeta itself through a few fansubs, which were difficult to get back then. I was in my early 20's then and though I had many opinions on it's political backstory, universe and characters...I was really just stoked to see a futuristic military drama that had some sort of grit to it...if you think back, we had Star Trek? Space above and beyond? maybe that show wasn't even on then.

After joining the Corps and seeing real genuine conflict and stress...many of my perspectives didn't just change, but I saw a lot more detail and nuance in the shows I would watch and learned to appreciate the details, but also sometimes be a bit critical of it's perspective.

Zeta is still one of my favorite shows, but I'll admit, I often find the bland Titans boring as villians. Jerid is boorish, Yazan ridiculous and the titan leaders are predictably evil and unlikable. When I finally watched the whole show after it's DVD release, I was disappointed...I still liked it better than wing or seed, but to me the titans set it back. The original Gundam got many things right about actual conflict...the enemy is quite human, and at the same time, quite deadly to the point that silly platitudes like displayed in Gundam Unicorn are almost immoral in the innocent lives that can be lost...I wish I could block suicide bombers and IED's with power from the wishes of the human race.

The original Gundam is easier to relate to as a former Marine, the conflict is much larger than you are. The crew is a cog in the wheel, and despite Amuro and Char's enormous potential and power, they have little to do with the final outcome. Comparatively, the AEUG is practically the Argama, and the leaders and main players in the conflict are MS pilots and directly involved in armed conflict...didn't much like this angle either.

Still, I love Zeta. I think if you like subtle characters with more human rather than grandiose over-the-top habits and motivations, the show is a delight. I see in most modern anime that most characters have a mix of insane habits and grandiose motivations that eclipse normal convention, and people use to watching that see Zeta as boring. I liked Gurren Lagan as much as anyone, but I found the constant screaming and wailing insipid. At least Zeta waited until the end. Reccoa is rightfully disliked by all Gundam fans but she represent how some people are in real life, driven by selfish needs and personal grievances rather than morality.

[Mimeblade]

This war would've never started if Camille wasn't such a friggan hot-head and punching random Titans.

[Kuruni]

No, that's the event that eventually lead him to join AEUG. The war already started (albeit not official, if you think from historian's POV), and Char is already on his mission to steal Mark II.

[InjuredPelican]

Kamille was simply a "proactive" bystander to a conflict already well underway. Unlike a lot of Gundam shows, most of Kamille's individual actions don't fundamentally alter the war. Its the actions of entire factions that matter more in Zeta.

[Amion]

Just was watching Zeta again during a slow-rewatch, and was on episode 6.

One thing I notice about the early episodes is the scope of the story. In just 12 episodes we have what could VERY easily pass for 25 episodes in just about any modern anime. We get the set-up arc, the beginning or foreshadowing of the Jaburo assault in episode 6, we have mentioning of the titular Gundam and its origins, we get the main villain and his first battle with the protagonists, the rival and his first love interest, the colony 30 incident that shows why the Titans must be opposed, an attack on the protagonist home base, character development, character death in general, new characters, political clarification, and a climax battle at Jaburo.

Wow. Now, imagine that happening in modern times. You'd never get that into 12 episodes. Never. It'd take twice as long with half the character definition.

[Nikkolas]

It's been almost two years since I started my Gundamathon and experienced most Gundam series. To recap briefly, I largely disliked 0079. I liked nobody on White Base except Kai. The best characters were the Zabis and they're in like, 5 episodes out of 41 or 42. Then I went onto -8th MS Team. It was a bit better - very different from MSG. Much more natural I felt. Still nothing special though.

It was Zeta when the Gundam Magic hit me. From Episode 1 and onward, I was enthralled. For one thing, Kamille is amazing. In the first episode alone you just have to sit back and marvel at how absolutely nuts this kid is. So Kamille makes a very strong first impression as essentially a teenage rebel on steroids. Yet he's far from uncaring or unkind. We get to see how, with the proper instrudction and guidance, he becomes a better person. I've seen it argued Kamille never loses the "essential mentality' he held at the beginning ie. his black-and-white ideas of morality. Can't really blame him though - the Titans are evil and Kamille wants to stamp them out to protect people. On a similar note, I've always been fascinated by Kamille's condemnation of Haman. He treats her like a demon of purest darkness and malevolence. Yet I hear in ZZ, its resident Newtype MC finds Haman to be sympathetic.

Anyway, in short, Kamille grows up and it's great.

Secondly, there's Char aka Quattro. I never liked MSG Char. I was constantly waiting for this amazing character people ranted and raved about but he never came. He was kind of just a petty jerk who was more than happy to abandon his mission of Kill All Zabis because he found a girlfriend.
But in Zeta, you see a marked shift in his motivations and interactions. There's much to discuss about how much of "Quattro" was real. It's intentionally ambiguous and that adds to the character's appeal for me. I personally think Char was legitimately trying to be a better person, to help guide Kamille and humanity to something greater. The problem is, not only did everything fall apart, it was possibly too late for him. "Quattro" was just another mask, just like" Char" is. This mask was nicer than Char but Casval is far too damaged by this point to truly change.

Speaking of tragic characters, Zeta has a lot of those. One I absolutely love is Four. Kamille and Four's relationship, to me, is everything that Amuro and Lalah's relationship wasn't. Kamille and Four interacted more, they had some things in common, Four got some real characterization and development.... Don't come in here and tell me Lalah was some prostitute Char rescued. Maybe that's true but I don't remember them ever talking about it in MSG. Original Gundam loves that - it explains everything in side material. Whereas in Zeta, Four's reasons for being with the Titans are spelled out very clearly and are very easy to understand and sympathize with.

Also Four had an amazing theme song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTp-D3GXREA

In fact, another reason to praise Zeta is its fantastic score.

Another tragic character - albeit a rather controversial one - is Reccoa. I don't hate Reccoa like so many do. She betrayed the AEUG for very selfish reasons but many AEUG people were AEUG people because they were selfish. Many people fight in wars, not for ideals or something abstract like that, but because a loved one was killed or they lost their home or something else. Wars are not fought just for principles.

I was kind of thinking of making a thread on this but since this one exists, I'd like to ask fellow Zeta fans what they think of something.

This occurred to me when a person elsewhere made the accusation that Kamille never really becomes a 'nice guy" and treats the other AEUG members like dirt. In response to this I jotted down Kamille's general interactions with the others to disprove the claim. It made me realize something...

Just who did Kamille care most about in the AEUG?

While Quattro was Kamille's mentor of sorts, I don't know if I'd ever say Kamille had a strong affection for him.
At one point I believe someone makes a comment that Kamille thinks of Emma like a mother. She promptly rebuffs that claim. I kind of agree with her.
To me, perhaps it's because we get to see Kamille's anguish over her defection, but it always felt to me like Kamille had a special fondness for Reccoa. From my memory, he was typically nicer and more respectful towards her than anyone else. If anyone was potentially a surrogate motehr fr him, I thought it be Reccoa. They had the closest "emotional bond" when it comes to Kamille and an adult.