Newtypes and their place in Gundam

[InjuredPelican]

I have always seen hatred for the Newtype in Gundam forums all over the internet. Its nothing new. But I am still taken aback by seriously negative posts for them, even in threads with nothing to do with them. More than half of Gundam series have no Newtypes whatsoever, but still they seem to weigh in on Gundam topics. So I would like to begin a discussion. On what they are, how we feel about them, and why.

With that, here's my part in the matter:
I watched the Original series when I could back on Toonami. But its air time was hard to catch, and it went off air altogether in a short time. So I mostly became familiar with Newtypes through a book, the Official Guide to Mobile Suit Gundam. The guide covered all important aspects of Gundam. I enjoyed all of it, but I was particularly intrigued by one section: Newtypes. What may seem an odd addition to a "realistic" war drama is one thing I've always enjoyed. Once I got to watch the MSG Trilogy, the full series, Zeta, and finally CCA, I was hooked on the idea of Newtypes. Human evolution. So strange and mysterious. The idea of understanding each other so clearly, the power they can wield in battle, and the multitude of attitudes towards them in series. People that can grow and expand their understanding like Kamille and Amuro gave me hope in the other wise grim world. But it was complex as well. Fellow Newtypes like Char struggled with the concept, while Scirroco used it to dominate.

Some people would enjoy concrete understanding of just what a Newtype is, and what they can do. Gundam X attempts to answer it. But I myself very much enjoy the mystery. To me, Newtypes are all about potential. Amuro and Kamille had a lot of potential, and they rose to fulfill their potentials. Char did as well, but he could not decide what his destiny was. He manipulated and killed his "allies" even when they were his friends. He tried to reform, but was again caught up in his hatred. Scirroco deemed himself and those like him to be above "normal" humans. He separated himself from them even while dealing with them, and eventually stole power for himself, most likely on the grounds that he deserved those powers. And yet even he did not understand Newtypes. Kamille took what was intangible, relationships and experiences, and converted them into a language Scirroco understood: force. It destroyed them both.

Like the X-men and other "super" humans, for me Newtypes are a ways to exaggerate humanity and their issues and bring them to the forefront. For me, it is an integral part of Mobile Suit Gundam and the other series directed by Tomino. Just as the giant robots exaggerate humans physically, Newtypes exaggerate humans mentally/spiritually. And all anime, as are most works of fiction, are also about exaggeration. Its what makes a story interesting. Even the more "realistic" Gundam entries contain such exaggeration, but in different ways. The relationship of Shiro and Aina erupts into a full scale conflict in the end of the series. As Kou and Gato's fight escalates, so do their personal machines. Even Bernie can be accused of using his Zaku as a compensator. He feels timid and cowardly, but in the end his fight is as huge as his own Zaku, as he overcomes his massive obstacle in the physical form of a Gundam. The colonies are exaggeration in the opposite direction, taking the environment of earth and scaling them down to show how much power we can wield over it.

I've said my piece, and I'll leave it that. I really do want to know how people feel about Newtypes, and why, both negative and positive aspects. But please keep this as civil as possible.

[Kratos]

We did just have this discussion in the "Best Protagonist" thread. But okay.

I like Newtypes. I think they're woefully mis- and under-used in the vast majority of Tomino-penned productions, but I also think that they're a very important aspect of Gundam and it's science fiction and as such hate it when they're ignored entirely.

[Dendrobium Stamen]

I'll be blunt about my position on the topic: I just don't like the Newtype mythos.

Now, to expand upon that a little; I have no problem with some of the broader concept, of a next stage of human evolution, one with a dramatically-raised level of insight and intuition. It's everything that seems to wrap around that concept like a veil that bothers me, the notions that Newtypes are battlefield-dominating supermen whose powers can be used for good or for evil (like The Force), either as saviours or as conquerors; the former espousing philosophies of peace while piloting war machines, the latter seeing themselves as God-Emperors-in-Waiting of the "old" human race (see: Scirocco).

For me, the particularly frustrating example is the climax of Char's Counterattack, where the Curtain of Newtype Light pushes the tumbling chunk of Axis away from Earth; it didn't seem necessary, plot-wise. Other, less gimmicky means could have been used to Save The World, even ones involving Newtypes, but Green Spirit Cloud really didn't cut it for me, and to be honest made the end of that film - which I otherwise find to be pretty great - somewhat disappointing.

Now, one of my favourite things about X is its deconstruction of all the mythology surrounding Newtypes; I've gone into that in more detail here, so suffice it to say that the way this series plays the whole Newtype concept as a broadly predictable set of mutations, with the characters who see Newtypes as "superior" rather than just different being smote along the way, is a brilliant way to handle them.

So, yes. I'm not going to bash Newtypes or say that others shouldn't find reason to enjoy the concept, but it's just not my cup of tea, overall.

[schwarz ritter]

Damn it, had I known there was going to be a thread like this, I woulda posted these links here instead, as the inevitable Jedi-Newtype argument is about to begin from the pro-Newtype hax faction. So here goes my beloved Karen Traviss. Read it, damn it, READ IT!

This whole Newtype hax debate reminds of Karen Traviss. I'll leave you several links to related articles, forums and other crap see if you can use it to continue debating and stuff:

http://www.karentraviss.com/page10/file ... Jedi_.html
http://www.swtor.com/fr/community/showt ... ?p=3734346
http://www.forumforpages.com/facebook/s ... 80444094/0
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Karen_Traviss
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?469 ... ontroversy
http://joesherry.blogspot.mx/2009/08/ka ... -wars.html


Now gotta go to Lisbon to watch effing Prometheus. See ya next week.

And as for Dendrobium Stamen: you are my effing hero. Seriously. Your post should have "^THIS" and a million set of national medals.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

I broadly agree with Injured Pelican that Newtypes are, essentially, humanity exaggerated. In simple action-adventure terms, they're Jedi in giant robots (note that Star Wars: A New Hope was released two years before Mobile Suit Gundam; you'd be hard-pressed to argue that it wasn't a major influence). In broader terms, though, they're a vehicle for Tomino to make a point about humanity and human nature. In thematic terms, the only important aspect of Newtypes is their ability to understand each other instantly and perfectly -- the (in)famous "Newtype flash" moment.

Zeon Deikun's Newtype theory suggests that the rise of Newtypes will usher in a golden age of humanity, bringing about an era of peace as perfect understanding eliminates the need for conflict. The astute Gundam viewer will note that this doesn't happen. Newtypes fight, not only "oldtypes" who can't share their understanding, but also other Newtypes. This is important. Newtypes, despite achieving perfect understanding of one another, still fight. This is the main point that Tomino uses Newtypes to make: understanding does not, by itself, prevent conflict. Certainly it can help (witness how many times enemies share a Newtype flash and become allies), but understanding doesn't always bring about peace.

What's Tomino getting at with this? He's rejecting the idea that we can all just talk our differences out. He's asserting that, sometimes, fighting is the best option, and choosing not to fight is a moral failing. Essentially, he's saying that sometimes evil people just need killing. You can't always talk them down or make them see the err of their ways. Sometimes, violence really is the best solution.

Why use Newtypes for this? Newtypes take the argument to the extreme. If you believe that all conflict is caused by misunderstanding, then you can argue that any conflict that occurs is caused, at some level, by a failure to properly communicate, and that if only the involved parties had communicated better, the conflict would've been avoided. Newtypes deny this argument by fighting despite perfect communication. You literally cannot have understanding better than those shared by Newtypes -- but they still fight. Therefore, communication cannot prevent all conflict.

Unfortunately, I think that much, of not most, of the fandom fails to understand this point. I blame this mostly on the fact that Tomino frequently has his characters lie to the audience (or else just be mistaken) without calling attention to the fact that what they're saying is untrue. Thus, people hear things like Deikun's oft-repeated Newtype theory (that communication = peace) and believe that Tomino is actually presenting it as fact, rather than presenting it in order to show that it's wrong.

Take Dendrobium Stamen's comments on Gundam X, for example. He says he likes it because it's a "deconstruction" of the Newtype concept, that he likes the way Gundam X handles Newtypes (the implication being that it handles Newtypes differently than Universal Century Gundam). Here's the thing, though: Gundam X's Newtypes are exactly the same as UC's Newtypes. They're not the next stage of human evolution that are going to usher in a new era of peace and prosperity. Despite their abilities, they're just people like any other. This is true in both UC and Gundam X; the only difference is that Gundam X spells it out explicitly, while UC Gundam makes you infer it for yourself. The fact that so many people see Gundam X as a departure from UC Gundam is proof that a lot of people didn't "get" what Tomino was trying to do with Newtypes -- mostly because he made it unnecessarily difficult to actually figure out what the hell he was getting at.

This, incidentally, is why the Innovator concept from Gundam 00 really grated on me. They're basically what Newtypes would be if Deikun was right. They actually are the next evolutionary stage of humanity, who will end conflict and bring about a golden age by ending all conflict through communication. It's thematically the exact opposite of the original Gundam. Instead of the moral being "there are things worth defending and times when fighting is the only way to defend them", the moral is "fighting only makes things worse, you have to talk things out to make a lasting difference". This is sort of like rewriting the last scene of Return of the Jedi so that Luke turns to the dark side to defeat Vader and the Emperor. Sure, it's a valid stance to take, but it shows either a complete lack of understanding or a complete lack of respect for the previous material.

[Fritz Ashlyn]

...my beloved Karen Traviss...

Well, there's your problem right there.

[DAG101]

@BraveFencerKirby: I agree with much of your post, a lot of it made sense.

I do disagree a bit with your examination of the innovators from 00--yeah, they were newtypes if Deikum was right, but I felt like they handled the idea well, especially since the show seemed to still present the idea that, even with understanding, sometimes, fighting was needed--people like Ribbons (power-hungry sociopaths, I mean; not robot-people ) can't be defeated through understanding, sometimes violence is needed to stop people like him

[zetatype]

Damn it, had I known there was going to be a thread like this, I woulda posted these links here instead, as the inevitable Jedi-Newtype argument is about to begin from the pro-Newtype hax faction. So here goes my beloved Karen Traviss. Read it, damn it, READ IT!

This whole Newtype hax debate reminds of Karen Traviss. I'll leave you several links to related articles, forums and other crap see if you can use it to continue debating and stuff:

http://www.karentraviss.com/page10/file ... Jedi_.html
http://www.swtor.com/fr/community/showt ... ?p=3734346
http://www.forumforpages.com/facebook/s ... 80444094/0
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Karen_Traviss
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?469 ... ontroversy
http://joesherry.blogspot.mx/2009/08/ka ... -wars.html


Now gotta go to Lisbon to watch effing Prometheus. See ya next week.

And as for Dendrobium Stamen: you are my effing hero. Seriously. Your post should have "^THIS" and a million set of national medals.

Can you provide us some context as to how you think this relates to the whole thread. As far as I can tell, Karen Traviss beaf with Jedi is that she dislikes how the fans view Jedi as being incapable of doing wrong (moral superiority). Are you saying that this is how you view Newtypes as being pictured in the U.C.?

[LightningCount]

I'll just jump in with a quick reaction for now. The idea of Newtypes is fine enough, but the way it gets exploited in the narrative often leads to scenarios I don't like, like the end of Char's Counterattack or the in-the-buff floating communication moments out of time and space. Gundam X handled it in one of the most balanced ways probably...

[Kratos]

The thematic use of Newtypes - and the fact that much of MSG and its ilk are so damn weird already - is what makes it easy for me to overlook the stranger Newtype moments, like the nude monologuing and the green fairydust push. They provide a halfway decent explanation for both of those phenomena, and I find it perfectly easy to accept them in a universe like Gundam's as a result.

What Brave Fencer said is precisely why I'm finding Banagher so interesting as a character: he IS that perfect Newtype. Not only does he believe that understanding = peace, he has the power to test that with the power of the Unicorn, and seems to (as of episode 5) be pretty confident that this is the role he can play in the conflict unfolding around him. What's strange about this, and why I think he's well-written rather than a result of the writer(s) missing the point, is that this is true of precisely nobody else in the series. There are other Newtypes; if the writer(s) were trying to show that "Banagher's way is the road to peace for all the peoples of the world", then surely he would have converted at least one to his way of thinking by this point in the series whether by active or passive means, if only to show the audience that his is the right way. Instead, nobody can get along regardless, and this reinforces the theme of Newtypes being just as human as Oldtypes while adding the humanist theme of potential, of progress just over that horizon. Like humans, there are exceptional examples of Newtypes who if everybody was like them, then maybe the world could change. Instead, though, they're in short supply, just as in humanity, and so they aren't the future at all...but isn't it nice to see that this good exists? Maybe if all Newtypes were like Banagher, then they could be the future; maybe if all humans were as genuinely kind and dedicated as Ramba Ral or Zinnerman (neither f whom show any Newtype characteristics, despite being allied with Zeon), then Humanity could be its own future. Instead, both are sides of the same coin, neither being fundamentally worth an ounce more (or less) than the other.

Banagher just allows us, for once, to see the shinier side of the coin.

[Mu La Flaga]

I don't really have much to add since some people have more in depth thoughts then me.

I mean Newtypes seem like an interesting element to add to Gundam as a series.
They have added something to the show.

Then you do have cyber newtypes which play around with the idea of who can or can not be a potential newtype.

The potential exsists in some or it can be brought out artificially.


Not to mention also we do have Gundam X which in the end considered Newtypes to be mutants or mutations rather then the next step for human evolution.

[Amion]

Thank Brave Fencer Kirby for putting into words the Newtype philosophy. I think that a lot of people do indeed end up missing the point. for me, I think they were a major addition to Gundam lore. I have to say though, the idea of an Axis Shock is what really gets to me. I don't mind the nudist conversations because I don't remember any from UC, except the ones with Four and Kamille and perhaps one or two in Unicorn. And those were very brief, unlike in 00. But I digress.

The concept of Newtypes brings depth to UC, and X simply clinches the idea.

[NastyNate]

I never liked the newtype stuff but on the same coin I am glad it is not all in your face like the force or some other supernatural aspects of media entertainment. I don't think it adds anything productive to the show and it does not add to any hope for the UC world. As we can see in Victory where Newtypes are still used as a weapon. I personally like the federations view in the One Year War of Newtypes. Which is basically they are Ace Pilots who can sense the moves of the enemy's making them "Super Pilotos" as wolf would put it.

Some of the Newtype stuff just got too whiny about we should not be fighting and lets be friends. I do think it is neat how the attraction between a Man and Woman Newtype is so strong. That brings a new area of Romance not explored too much in the shows. Except for with the crazy cybernewtypes. I did like too how only Newtypes could use funnels making them a special weapon only for a select few.

[zetatype]

Not to mention also we do have Gundam X which in the end considered Newtypes to be mutants or mutations rather then the next step for human evolution.

Well they're kinda the same thing. All evolution starts out as mutations and its not until those mutations become present in the majority or all of members of the species that it is becomes evolution (genetics passed down from parent to child through countless generations). The thing is this process takes hundreds if not thousands of years so for all we know all of humanity could become newtypes in the U.C. or X's universe (unless its somehow proven that newtype powers cannot be passed down genetically)

In MSG, while newtypes were never explicitly called mutants or mutations, they were considered to be a possibility for the next step in evolution and therefore are mutants. I admit that saying "the next step in human evolution" kinda makes it sound like their implying evolution has a set path which is completely false as evolution is reactionary, however I doubt that was Tomino's intention.

Now I have a question, does anyone know if its been confirmed that Newtype powers can be passed down genetically from parent to child. It seems that every Newtype character in the U.C. is a first generation newtype (first newtype in their bloodline).

[InjuredPelican]

Now I have a question, does anyone know if its been confirmed that Newtype powers can be passed down genetically from parent to child. It seems that every Newtype character in the U.C. is a first generation newtype (first newtype in their bloodline).

Well for some reason none of the main Newtypes in the stories managed to have any kids (what with their love interests consistently biting the dust) as far as we know. But, Usso of Victory is implied to be a possible decedent of Char, which may or may not have anything to do with his Newtype abilities. Also, Unicorn has Full Frontal (snicker) as a genetic clone of Char, and he's a Newtype as far as I know. It might mean there is a Newtype gene, but it doesn't prove whether it can be passed on through reproductive means.

[NastyNate]

Uso being a decendant of char? I have never heard of that. But yeah zetatype you make a good point that we don't get many clues as far as I know that it can be passed on. Maybe if we could read Beltochorica's children where we get to find out about Amuro's kid. Or hathaways flash (since bright was "a Newtype") The closest thing we get is the newtype baby in Victory gundam, but it never said if the mom was a newtype.

[mcred23]

Uso is not related to Char. That rumor is completely and totally not true, so it would obviously have nothing to do with Uso's Newtype abilities.

As for zetatype's question, I don't actually recall a clear case in the UC shows where we see a Newtype or a Newtype couple have children who are then Newtypes themselves. The only possible example that comes to mind is Bright and Mirai, because IIRC Hathaway has a Newtype moment or two in CCA. However that is nowhere near a clear cut example, because Hathaway is around the psyco-frame a lot, and whether or not his parents are even actually Newtypes is up for debate (At best, both are very weak ones). So really, I'm not sure it is a question the shows provide any answers for...

[InjuredPelican]

Uso is not related to Char. That rumor is completely and totally not true, so it would obviously have nothing to do with Uso's Newtype abilities.

Well thanks for clearing that up then. Its sometimes too easy to take common rumors as truth.

[Sume Gai]

I don't know about heredity but we do have the Ple clones. The original Ple was a natural newtype and so far as we know so were all of her clones. This (and the tidbits I've picked up about Full Frontal( does suggest there may be some connection between genetics and newtypism

[Kratos]

Spoiler

Wasn't the more mental aspect of Full Frontal's cloning dragged from Sazabi's former psyco-frame, rather than genetically cloned?