Double Zeta: What do you think about it?

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

1.) Not much more than arrogance on his part due to rumors of him being an illegitimate child of Gihren Zabi, thus he probably thought that he, not Haman or even Mineva, was the "true" successor to the legacy of Zeon and the other soldiers either also believed that or Glemy convinced them with promises and other things to lure them over.

2.) As said, Sayla was in medical school and is a doctor now.

3.) Presumably, during ZZ, Amuro was piloting a Zeta Plus A1 Type and supporting Karaba against Neo Zeon and remnant Titan forces.

4.) An exact reason was never given, IIRC.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

It seems likely that Judau went off to Jupiter for the same reason that Kamille got mind-scrambled and Amuro got killed at the end of CCA: Tomino isn't fond of leaving room for people to insist that a character return for the sequel.

[Imperial]

It does seem he learned a thing or two from Kawamori and his decision to write the classic Macross cast out of focus so as not to overshadow the newbies. On the other hand, it may have been jugging so many returning cast members in Zeta that soured him on excessively large casts full of old faces. (Sure, Char's Counterattack features a fair amount of veterans, but that cast is small enough not to grate.)

[NastyNate]

Judau should not be gone for good though. They just said that he was going to be gone for 5 years.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Yeah but would it matter? Wasn't he sick and tired of war by the end of it all?

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Non-canonically, he does make appearances in Crossbone Gundam: Skull Heart and the Victory Gundam side story manga in the "Gump" as "Grey Stokes", which is pretty much a very scrappy-looking ZZ that barely resembles its former self minus the double beam rifle and all (but still with the original head underneath it's helmet).

[NastyNate]

Non-canonically, he does make appearances in Crossbone Gundam: Skull Heart and the Victory Gundam side story manga in the "Gump" as "Grey Stokes", which is pretty much a very scrappy-looking ZZ that barely resembles its former self minus the double beam rifle and all (but still with the original head underneath it's helmet).

what do the mangas say about judau and roux? Also beecha and elle?

[ZeonsSilverStar]

Non-canonically, he does make appearances in Crossbone Gundam: Skull Heart and the Victory Gundam side story manga in the "Gump" as "Grey Stokes", which is pretty much a very scrappy-looking ZZ that barely resembles its former self minus the double beam rifle and all (but still with the original head underneath it's helmet).

what do the mangas say about judau and roux? Also beecha and elle?

In the Counterattack of Gigantis manga Judau mentions that he and Roux broke up, but this manga is probably as far away from canon as possible.

[Ouroboric]

Hey quick question, I've only been through ZZ once, I'm wondering what the best episodes are for the sake of watching Quebely's in action are? I'm working on a potential fanfic and i need a good base for writing about it in combat, beyond Haman's usage of it at the end of Zeta.

For my opinion on ZZ, i tried to watch the first 5 episodes, and i couldn't , I'll be honest, i read the MAHQ reviews and found the point were it was said that "the plot started moving" and the rating started to increase, so i watched maybe episode 18 until the end.I thought it had 20 episodes that were great, but still less satisfying and a bit overly goofy, when compared with Zeta.At it's best i would rate it quite high, and at it's worst i would rate it the worst I've seen in Gundam.

[Cardi Doorl]

^
If you're specifically talking about Haman in her Qubeley and excluding various Purus and clones in other Qubeleys, then the last 2-3 episodes are the only ones where you get Haman out there in that.

[Ouroboric]

Any Qubeley would do actually, i just need to have a good visualization of it's movements, how it attacks, how it looks in combat kind of thing. No previously written characters will be involved so it's all about the ms it'self.

[NastyNate]

Any Qubeley would do actually, i just need to have a good visualization of it's movements, how it attacks, how it looks in combat kind of thing. No previously written characters will be involved so it's all about the ms it'self.

The best way to see how the Quebeley attacks I think would be to try out Dynasty Warriors Gundam 2 or 3. You can really see its finesse when it moves. If you can't get the games then there are plenty of videos of people playing as it on Youtube.

[Ouroboric]

Awesome, thank you!

[Jaynz]

I actually enjoyed ZZ after marathonning a sub on it on YouTube. It's a flawed series, but it didn't make me feel like I wasted 20+ hours watching the whole thing through. Certainly the criticisms of the show are grossly overblown.

There is some goofball comedy in a few places, notably at the very beginning, and then again at the Moon Moon colony. This doesn't last too long, though, and even in these episodes we have some serious crap (TM) going down. (Heck, some familiar faces from Zeta outright DIE in the first few episodes!)

ZZ also marks the first time you see a colony drop up close and personal, and it is a very intense few episodes in the story arc. You also see just how badly the Federation government has fallen and how desperate they are through the series just to keep itself together. A lot of this is explicitly stated in dialog, so it can be hard to follow with subtitles at times.

Most of the characters are likable, but Beecha drags out his 'idiot ball' for a little long, though he starts to mature in the final couple of arcs. Mondo is probably the only irredeemable character, almost getting in a few moments and then botching them. Elle and Roux both make good romantic foils for Judeau (Roux comes through, again, most in dialog, so it can be hard to see at times in a subbed version). Haman reveals that, deep down, she's a real woman after all.

There are VERY few 'truly pathetic' characters through the story, unlike Zeta's Katz, or CCA's Quess, or Sarah, or Reccoa, etc... Mondo's unlikeable, but not so much that you want to put a beam saber through his head. He's just not-quite-well-done comic relief. Chara Soon even works, when you realize that she's an artificial NewType caught between two identities. (Again, this aspect requires you pay attention to the sub's details.)

In short, it's a shame that Ocean Group didn't get to do ZZ after all, though I wouldn't rule it out eventually. There's a lot of good in the series, and there are fewer downbeats than in Zeta. The series is a strong dose of mood whiplash, however, particularly following Zeta's downer ending.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

What about the Junk Man? He always struck me as pretty pathetic.

[Jaynz]

What about the Junk Man? He always struck me as pretty pathetic.

Yeah, but he was supposed to be, I think. Judau was effectively first level here, remember, and the Zeta wasn't in great shape yet. Seriously, did you expect the GM to screw over the party right away?!

[Andrew86]

Wow, I skipped all the previous discussion as I'm only at episode 18 so I did not want spoilers. All I can say is wow. I mean I really am pretty much just speechless at what is taking place in this show.

I mean it is not like there are glaring holes in the story, it is just that everything is pretty much ridiculous. I understand the tone is supposed to change before too long and I am genuinely looking forward to that, but holy shit it is just a mind fuck. Ewok Island, Bright being portrayed as a total clown, Judau and all his friends just being idiots. Chara chicken dancing in MS for what? I sear she is supposed to be a new type yet she is completely retarded.

Ah...I'm convinced it will get good before too long but man oh man this is truly shocking. Haha it's funny as I put off starting Unicorn for this, but oh well at least i'm almost through the first half.


edit: ok so i watched 18-19 and they are decent. Still some annoying things going on, and some erratic decisions but at least we see some good action and character progression/newtype emergence. Puru should be annoying but for some reason you can kind of sympathize with her and she comes off as tolerable. I really think they need to just rescue leina though. It is getting old and seriously holding up the story. Argama mega cannon pretty cool.


Wow, now I am up to 27. It is amazing how much of a turn the show takes. I mean it is a completely different show for the better on every level. The MS are pretty bad ass at times (Roux blowing away all those MS in the Double Zeta was sweet). The characters have also gotten significantly better. Very interested to see where we go from here.

[Raptor]

Minor spoilers in the post below, so everything will be Tagged.

Spoiler

Surprises most people when I say this, but ZZ is my favorite series in Gundam. For most people, they rank it right above Destiny, which is of course above G-Savior. However, most people put it towards the bottom of the barrel. For me, it's at the top. Is ZZ perfect? No. However, Judau is in my opinion, the second most relatable(SP?) protagonist(Following only Garrod). He also wasn't about to take anything from Wong. Was he too forgiving of Beecha and Mondo? Yes. Do I think Mondo should have died in a fire, yes. Beecha turns around towards the end, but that's beside the point. Roux could be annoying, yes, but she's still one of my favorite female Gundam characters, just because she wasn't afraid to get things done. She would make herself the bad guy to Judau or Beecha if it meant that they shaped up. Elle and Iino were solid friends for Judau, standing beside him no matter what the rest of the Junkyard Kids(Lol, nice) thought. Plus, personal opinion sliding in here, Elle's gloves rocked.

Villain wise, Mashymere and Chara were odd, but Mashymere showed us what most of the young men of Axis thought of Haman, extreme as his feelings were. Chara was obviously mentally unstable, so I give her a pass. Glemy is unfortunately the ambitious young man, who gets distracted by a girl and makes his move for power too late, and so is cut short before he could really rise to the occasion. Puru and Puru 2 show us the moral ambiguity of cloning, and give Judau yet more emotional ties to aid him in becoming a more powerful newtype. Honestly, I like Puru more than Lalah or Four, but that could just be me. Finally, Haman, throughout everything seems drawn to Judau's Newtype Potential, and I have no doubts that if she could have convinced him to switch sides, would have used him in much the way she was planning to use Char.

Some episodes could have been omitted, the series could have been darker the whole way through, but so many things are changed in ZZ as compared to the former series. Cyber-Newtypes are now in Mass Production with the Puru Clones, this is our first UC series without Char playing an active role, this is our first protagonist who's parents had nothing to do with the construction of the Gundam. This was our first series with a full Gundam team, instead of a Gundam and some Mass Produced MS, or Prototype MS.

All in all, I think quite a few things could have been different. They could have left Shangri-La sooner, The Moon Moon episodes could have been cut. Leina could have stayed dead. The Junk Man could have never been written into the show. Yazan could have been awesome again. Glemy could have made a more substantial gain for power. They could have played the Elle-Judau-Roux love triangle a bit better instead of dropping it part way through for the Puru-Judau-Roux one, which never quite worked anyway. They could have killed Mondo and made Beecha more likeable. However, I firmly believe that without ZZ paving the way, things would have gone quite a bit differently with the series that followed. Look at Unicorn now. Marida is my favorite Unicorn character... but where would she be without ZZ?

I guess what I'm trying to say is:
Gundam fans put ZZ down quite a bit, but personally, I loved it. Liked the characters, Loved the mech designs(Especially the ZZ and Bawoo), the character development and the (Admittedly forseeable) plot twists. It's a good ending for the MSG-Zeta-ZZ trilogy, and it firmly stands, IMO, in the #1 position for me. I'm not Soulbro, but it gets my seal of approval.

-Raptor, out.

[Andrew86]

well I can make no excuses for the first 17 episides. I genuinely think they are pretty bad. That being said this series has gotten quite awesome since then. Bright acting like Bright again! Roux is an awesome pilot, and ZZ is ridiculously powerful (in a good way). I don't love Judau as much as Kamille or Amuro but he and the cast are much more likable since the turning point in the series. I'm at episode thirty four right now and I am totally enjoying it now. It really became a completely different show the second Puru showed up.

As for where Im at right now, I hate that the federation is being useless again and more or less giving Neo Zeon appeasement while hassling the Argama. I think the battle is going to ramp up way more now and I cant wait. Man I just wish they would of gotten things serious sooner as it could be even better.

I'll read the contents of that post after i finish the last thirteen episodes!

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

And despite all its firepower, they remember to keep the ZZ balanced out (unlike the S Gundam, Geymalk, etc) by giving it a LIMIT to that power, as in 1 shot of the high mega cannon nearly drains the ZZ of power or even just too many shots from the double beam rifle and whatnot coupled with, because of its more combining + complex transformation, a weaker frame build (needing to make so much space for things to twist, slide, fold, etc) where a bad enough hit in certain areas can lead to heavier damage, thus leading to the Full Armor upgrade (which even then, was only used once).

As mentioned, look at the various ZZ showings in Unicorn now too, especially the Nahel Argama =)