Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

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Destiny_Gundam
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Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

So I recently rewatched all of 00 with my brother and it's reminded me of how great the series is. However, as the title indicates, I'm not too sure how I feel on the ending.

Awakening of the Trailblazer is a fantastic movie full of great action and one of the most excellent portrayals of first contact I've seen. That ending though... What happened to everyone else? Why can't we see that? Since the cast was quite large and integral to the show it's criminal not to know. We get to see what happened to Klaus of all people, but not any of the other Celestial Being members? As far as I know none of the side materials reveal anything either (though I guess there was a human vs innovator war).

Can't say I'm too fond of what happened to Setsuna either. I wanted him to finally be able to have a happy life with his friends particularly a certain pink haired operator, not having him disappear for 50 years and miss out on everything.

As an ending I think season 2's finale is much better. Part of me wishes 00 ended on that note and the movie never happened, but the other part of me would hate to miss out on the experience that was the movie. Hense my confliction. I really do want more but it's sad knowing that it's unlikely the 00 universe will ever be revisited. I might just return to fanfiction to try and releave this feeling.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

I dislike the presentation style of the pre-epilogue ending because I thought it wrapped things up too fast but I liked what happened to Setsuna and the "Exit", Not knowing what happened to the cast (EVEN IN THE SIDEMATERIALS) is a big letdown though, aside from that I kinda liked the feeling of the Epilogue ending.

I think its better to see it for how he might see it. He's the first Innovator and he's becoming the ambasador for the first aliens humanity know of. That's the type of person Setsuna is, always fighting (even if its a different type) and continuing that fight is its his nature, especially when he already lives longer. The way he "exited" the series through the portal is one of my favorite scenes in 00 period, especially combined with the speech and the music and plus the way he casually cast away the GN Sword V. I don't think he sees assimilating with the ELS as a burden either, more like an honor and a duty that is taking up his time from doing less important things. I don't know, settling down doesnt seem like Setsuna to me, and I dont think its what he wants to do either. Some people are just like that, preferring to choose duty over what a lot of other people might normally do.

If anything, anything he might do for himself might start after the Epilogue actually, now that he's finally back (although he still has another war againts God-Knows-What to fight alongside some old CB members and Billy's son). And regardless of what actually happen or will happen, I'm happy the final scene went the way it did.

On an unrelated note, looking back its nice to see Setsuna's relationship with Tieria go from borderline shoot from back to close comrades was really nice. From Tieria understandably wanting to kill Setsuna a few times to their memorable united Throne battle, to their first meet in S2. Rewatching early S1, its kinda hard to believe that Tieria would be the type of guy to save Setsuna from 00 and became important in his Dialogues and his following to the ELS. They sure came from a long way since the start where Tieria pointed that gun at him of being a traitor.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

They probably spent so much time and money on that final battle that they probably just said, "screw it, we'll have to end it right here."
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

I liked most of the ending of 00 (show and movie)...other than what happened to Tieria.
Spoiler
The show--particularly S2--gave him an interesting story arc that followed him going from a biological robot in service of Veda to being human (in mind, if not exactly biologically) and going directly against Veda's plans (although not exactly...but he had no way of knowing it) only for him to die and become part of Veda again. And then in the movie he came back, in a cool gundam that looked slightly reminiscent of the innovade's mobile suits...only to die like ten minutes later and go back to being a computer
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

SonicSP wrote:(although he still has another war againts God-Knows-What to fight alongside some old CB members and Billy's son).
Where's this info from?
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

I......heartily disaprove of the SetsunaxFeldt thing that they (extremely poorly) set up. They had a total of, what, two or three conversations throughout the whole 50 episode series, and then suddenly Feldt has a crush on him? I could have very much gotten behind this if it didn't feel like they were (very poorly) throwing it together just to get rid of FeldtxNeil/Lye and SetsunaxMarina. The latter of which at the very least was clearly intended straight off from the start of season 1. (the two 1st OPs of seasons 1 and 2 make this rather clear) And they still ended 00 with SetsunaxMarina anyway.

While the action was nice.......it really could've used a little more than plain "blow s*** up" for 30 minutes. With the ELS having absorbed the 00 Raizer, why didn't the ELS make a copy of it like in the manga version? 00 Raizer vs. 00 Quanta would have been a nice enhancement, but I guess they ran out of budget/time in the movie or something.....

Aside from that (and the aforementioned lack of conclusion to the other characters) though, it was a nice movie, yeah.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Feldt/Lyle was killed the moment he kissed her and even more so when Anew was introduced. Setsuna had nothing to do with that.

Despite shipping Setsuna/Feldt I do agree with you. Would have been nice to see more on screen build up but I was happy with what I could get.

As for Setsuna/Marina, people, including the ones in-universe, tend to completely miss the point of their relationship. There's nothing romantic between them. They are two people who couldn't be more different but despite walking different paths they were able to understand each other. They serve as a sort of model case that anyone can reach an understanding. They are important to each other for that reason, not because of some biological impulse to screw :lol:
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Feldt/Lyle was killed the moment he kissed her and even more so when Anew was introduced. Setsuna had nothing to do with that.
That's exactly my point. After all the buildup for a Feldt/Lyle conflict/relationship in season 1 (screw age differences :P, though I'd bet that's exactly why they tossed it out), they waste no time to take all of 3 minutes to toss it away in the very beginning of season 2 and that's the last we ever hear of either Lockon from Feldt, then they brought in Anew to fill in the gap, all in favor of her two conversations with Setsuna. But at least LylexAnew was done a bit better than SetsunaxFeldt.
Clearly they weren't originally going for SetsunaxFeldt, even when season 2 started; under-developed relationships are one thing, but when a character falls for another after a grand total of two conversations across 50 episodes, you just know they pulled it out of their butt. (especially when Feldt's feelings never even started until the very end of the series) And the fact they shot the "relationship" down in the end anyway doesn't indicate any differently.

On a side note of that, I'm one of those who believes that they could have done better with making Feldt Lockon's replacement instead of bringing in Lockon 2.0. Anew could have arrived to be Feldt's new friend after Christina's passing instead of as Lyle's lover, Setsuna kills her, and some Setsuna vs Feldt conflict. (it certainly would have worked better than their out-of-nowhere romantic connection, which ended up going nowhere anyway)
Despite shipping Setsuna/Feldt I do agree with you. Would have been nice to see more on screen build up but I was happy with what I could get.
Though I actually preferred SetsunaxMarina all the way, as advertised since the 1st OP of season 1. :D (I still could have gotten on board with SetsunaxFeldt if they hadn't pulled it out of nowhere though)
As for Setsuna/Marina, people, including the ones in-universe, tend to completely miss the point of their relationship. There's nothing romantic between them. They are two people who couldn't be more different but despite walking different paths they were able to understand each other. They serve as a sort of model case that anyone can reach an understanding. They are important to each other for that reason, not because of some biological impulse to screw :lol:
Sure there's all the message stuff too, but that hug after decades of seperation at the end of the 00 movie (especially the incredibly and clearly romanticized manga version :shock: ) disagrees on the not-romance part. ^^b
Those, and a lot of stuff including scenes from the 1st OPs of seasons 1 and 2. But you don't hug like they did at the end of the movie if there's nothing romantic. ^^b
Last edited by Shinji103 on Sat May 12, 2012 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Shinji103 wrote:(especially the incredibly and clearly romanticized manga version :shock: )
Ah, but the manga version isn't official. :twisted:

Besides, why are you trying to use imagery from the OPs and EDs to make a point? If we were to solely believe the OPs and EDs of SEED, for example, then you could build a case for Kira and Lacus having as much of a sexual relationship as Kira and Flay. But in the show we don't see so much as a hint that he's even kissed Lacus.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:Ah, but the manga version isn't official. :twisted:
Official or not, it's still another telling of the movie. :P And the movie version had a strong enough signal at the end there anyway. :D
Besides, why are you trying to use imagery from the OPs and EDs to make a point? If we were to solely believe the OPs and EDs of SEED, for example, then you could build a case for Kira and Lacus having as much of a sexual relationship as Kira and Flay. But in the show we don't see so much as a hint that he's even kissed Lacus.
It's not just the OPs, those are just what everybody remembers easier. There were lots of signals, signs, and flags throughout season 1, though as I said they pretty much took them all down in season 2. (then brought them back again at the end of the movie ^^b)
I assume you're talking about that scene in the first SEED OP where Kira and Lacus are floating together naked. I also think you're taking my example and warping it to be a little too........extreme. Saying anything about Kira and Lacus having a sexual relationship based on the first SEED OP is a good deal more extreme than saying that the scenes from the 00 OPs signal romance between Setsuna and Marina....
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Shinji103 wrote:After all the buildup for a Feldt/Lyle conflict/relationship in season 1
All that build up? Feldt had one scene with Neil, that's fewer than she had with Setsuna. She had a crush on Neil, saw Neil in Lyle, but then Lyle forced her to see that he's not his brother. Why would she suddenly fall for Lyle after that? That scene served to resolve her left over feelings for Neil so she could move on.
Shinji103 wrote:Clearly they weren't originally going for SetsunaxFeldt, even when season 2 started; under-developed relationships are one thing, but when a character falls for another after a grand total of two conversations across 50 episodes, you just know they pulled it out of their butt.
Feldt did fall for Neil after one conversation, remember? At any rate it's clear it happened off screen, but stuff like this doesn't need much of a basis. Feldt fell for Setsuna, and why not? He's a pretty awesome guy. Now if Setsuna showed any sign of reciprocating, that would be a different matter.

I mean, we're not talking Shinn/Lunamaria here.
Shinji103 wrote:Sure there's all the message stuff too, but that hug after decades of seperation at the end of the 00 movie
And it's not possible for that to be platonic? The way other people see Setsuna and Marina's relationship plays into that whole idea of "men and woman can't be just friends." I don't see what you mean by "hugging like they did." It looked like just a hug to me.

As for the manga, the manga-ka said that scene was symbolic of their mutual understanding and not to be taken literally. On the other hand you got the movie booklet where Mizushima says that while Setsuna's feelings are a mystery, he didn't exactly reject Feldt.

In the end, though, it's like Feldt said: Setsuna's love is too big for any one person. While I have fun with shipping this particular ship war is meaningless :lol:
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Besides it's mecha anime; romance is not their forte. Just look at AGE. :P Anything else you had unresolved Destiny_Gundam?
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Just this overwhelming feeling of emptiness, I guess.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Destiny_Gundam wrote:All that build up? Feldt had one scene with Neil, that's fewer than she had with Setsuna. She had a crush on Neil, saw Neil in Lyle, but then Lyle forced her to see that he's not his brother. Why would she suddenly fall for Lyle after that? That scene served to resolve her left over feelings for Neil so she could move on.
I guess I should have said I meant the overall resulting build up, not just the number of conversations. That one scene Neil had with Feldt was more meaningfull then all of Setsuna and Feldt's development combined, really.
............which still may not be the best way to describe it since Setsuna and Feldt had so little interaction. ^^b
The way they so quickly and briefly dismissed any possible conflict between Feldt and Lyle suggests pretty strongly that it was something they just tossed in there rather than planned out, just like Setsuna and Feldt's relationship.
Shinji103 wrote:Feldt did fall for Neil after one conversation, remember? At any rate it's clear it happened off screen, but stuff like this doesn't need much of a basis. Feldt fell for Setsuna, and why not? He's a pretty awesome guy. Now if Setsuna showed any sign of reciprocating, that would be a different matter.
Wasn't the whole problem with FlitxEmily back when in Gundam AGE that it all happened off-screen? ^^b
It just sounds like a serious cop-out when development is relegated to off-screen. (plus, relationship development doesn't work off-screen, just like character development) Wouldn't it be dumb if Amata and Mikono had started off as just a non-romantic relationship until the last second of Aquarion EVOL and suddenly there's magic between them? ^^b
I mean, we're not talking Shinn/Lunamaria here.
You realize that Shinn and Lunamaria had way more interaction than Setsuna and Feldt ever did, right? So ShinnxLunamaria is actually better developed than SetsunaxFeldt just from that, as pathetic as that sounds. ^^b
And it's not possible for that to be platonic? The way other people see Setsuna and Marina's relationship plays into that whole idea of "men and woman can't be just friends." I don't see what you mean by "hugging like they did." It looked like just a hug to me.
It can be platonic, but the signals given off by the hug in this particular case didn't seem much so, lol.
As for the manga, the manga-ka said that scene was symbolic of their mutual understanding and not to be taken literally. On the other hand you got the movie booklet where Mizushima says that while Setsuna's feelings are a mystery, he didn't exactly reject Feldt.
Well, when the author literally depicts the scene as a prince coming to the side of the princess with flowers all over like the "Awwwwww"-est shoujo manga scene ever, it conflicts with that kind of statement. ^^b
I view it the same as when Mizushima said Sergei is one of the best pilots of 00 alongside Sarshes; what he said didn't match up at all with what he depicted in the series. (Sergei was a great strategist, but was consistently displayed as a somewhat above-average pilot)
In the end, though, it's like Feldt said: Setsuna's love is too big for any one person. While I have fun with shipping this particular ship war is meaningless :lol:
^^b

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:Besides it's Gundam; romance is not their forte.
Fixed. :P
It's really only Gundam that isn't huge on romance. (and even Gundam has its moments like in X) Gurenn Lagann, Aquarion, Break Blade, Demonbane, Eureka Seven, FMP, Godannar, Rahxephon, Orguss, Macross, and even Zone of the Enders are just some of the mecha series with a big highlight on romance. (and a main highlight in some of them) :P
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Shinji103 wrote:Wasn't the whole problem with FlitxEmily back when in Gundam AGE that it all happened off-screen? ^^b
It just sounds like a serious cop-out when development is relegated to off-screen. (plus, relationship development doesn't work off-screen, just like character development) Wouldn't it be dumb if Amata and Mikono had started off as just a non-romantic relationship until the last second of Aquarion EVOL and suddenly there's magic between them? ^^b

You realize that Shinn and Lunamaria had way more interaction than Setsuna and Feldt ever did, right? So ShinnxLunamaria is actually better developed than SetsunaxFeldt just from that, as pathetic as that sounds. ^^b
You're mistaken about one thing: we're only talking about Feldt's one sided crush here. The examples you listed are mutual relationships. If Setsuna and Feldt had really become a couple with such little build up I would have a problem with it as well. However that's not the case. That's why I mention Shinn/Lunamaria. Even if they were established as friends, their romantic relationship came practically out of nowhere.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Personally, I thought Trailblazer was a disappointment on the whole. The plot made little sense (so, living metal aliens assimilate stuff in order to learn about them... wouldn't they learn that people don't like to be assimilated after the first few times they did it?), the action sequences were meh (mostly beamspamming at endless hordes of enemies, rather than any sort of interesting situations), and the theme was pretty much a complete reversal of everything Gundam had done up until then.

It's the last point that really bothered me. In UC Gundam, it's repeatedly beaten into the ground that communication by itself is not a solution to conflict (and other AUs generally operate under that belief as well). If someone's beliefs are antithetical to yours, then knowing and understanding their beliefs and their conviction in them make conflict with them more likely, not less. This is why people who share a "Newtype flash" moment (where they gain an instant, complete understanding of each other) generally have one of two responses: they fall in love (compatible beliefs), or they loathe each other utterly (incompatible beliefs). This doesn't mean that communication is pointless -- some conflict can be solved through it (see: Amuro/Lalah, Kamille/Four) -- but not all conflict (see: Kamille/Scirocco, Judau/Haman). The corollary of this -- just as important -- is that if you cannot solve your conflict through communication, then it's worth fighting over.

Gundam 00 (or Trailblazer, at least) throws all that out the window. This scene from the end of Trailblazer (spoilers if you haven't seen it, obviously) pretty well encapsulates the sentiment. Ignoring the accuracy of the statement (which veers into a political/philosophical derail), it's completely opposed to 30 years of Gundam history. Hell, the show is about guys in giant robots blowing up other guys in other giant robots. It's a franchise about war; it's not "Mobile Diplomat Gundam". So why pretend that fighting never solves anything after 120 minutes of solving your problems by blowing them up?

That said, I'm not opposed to that message in general. If you want to advocate trying to talk things out rather than fighting over them, then that's great. But Gundam isn't the vehicle for it.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

That quote is from Albert Einstein so it's not like they thought it up themselves.

But yeah, understanding =/= agreement. However in the movie's case the conflict with the ELS really did result from a misunderstanding, not a difference of opinions.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Actually Brave Fencer Kirby, I see that quote as entirely appropriate to the end of Awakening of the Trailblazer.

Look at the movie and see this common theme, where does fighting truly solve anything in the film?

In the end, blowing stuff up and killing a bunch of ELS didn't do a single thing...and if it continued, EVERYONE on Earth would have died. And Setsuna in a Gundam that had the potential to destroy just about everything, was instead used to END the conflict through talking and communication.

Hell, look at the entire show, no matter how much Celestial Being destroyed...the conflict never truly ended. Sure the Innovators were gone, but as we clearly saw in the movie, terrorists still exist and people still kill each other for their own gain. The underlining message I see in Awakening was that what Celestial Being was doing to the world was ultimately pointless, because people will always be people...hell Celestial Being's exploits were already being sensationalized and see as something of legend and not to be taken seriously (if that movie at the beginning was ANY indication). The quote more or less said, "hey yeah, mobile suits blowing each other to pieces might be a short term solution for peace...but look at the cost? Look at all the people who died? When in the end...all we really needed was some understanding...and some good old fashion talking and Fish and Chips (hey I am hungry).

As for the whole FeldtxSetsuna thing...yeah it was pulled out of the ass. BUT, was it as bad or as terrible as some of the things we have seen in Gundam (yeah Kamile and Four I am looking at you...and you had terrible dialogue to boot!)?

I guess this is what I am trying to say about Awakening of the Trailblazer.

Was it perfect?

No.

However, I can not understand why people dislike the ending so much, when I don't even know how people felt about other Gundam series endings in comparison! To be fair, Awakening has one of the best endings of any Gundam MOVIE...simply because it HAS an ending. Look at CCA. Everyone always tells me what a good movie that was...hell look at the review for it on mahq. Yet, was giant space flower all that different from, magical green psycho wave that was created by people's hopes and dreams to magically turn an asteroid away from earth? And then the movie just ends...what? No epilogue? No nothing?! Yet, people love that movie to death! Why? Because it is Universal Century and because there is more in manga or something. So what? That doesn't change the ending. At least in Gundam 00 Awakening of the Trailblazer, we got a (sort-of) epilogue. Was it perfect or show what happened to the characters we all love? No. But then again, neither did CCA! I was happy to at least get that from Awakening!

I really don't know where I am going with this, but I sometimes wonder if someone posted a, Conflicted feelings on CCA's ending here...they would get punched in the face, and told "there is more later" or so on. It is like how people love Zeta's endings...yet if we judge that as a stand alone series ending...what the hell? No epilogue? Just crazy kid in flight suit with all those "likeable characters" dead. Yet, those same people who love Zeta Gundam's endings, hate endings like Gundam Seed, why? Because there is no epilogue. Strange? Hypocritical? I don't know...

Ah wait, I just found my point. I guess what I am trying to say, (besides how I am getting so frustrated by inconsistencies in the Gundam fanbase) is that we don't know how this movie will be looked at in 10 years time. It could be loved or it could be hated even more. However, I do think that the sentiment I have seen towards Gundam 00 in general, about how, it will not hold up to the test of time, or that "no one will like it in a few years time," is incorrect.

I think this show will last, and I think Awakening will last as well. And who knows Desting_Gundam, maybe in a few years time you will revisit the whole series again and take something new away from it all? Time will tell. :)
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Actually this was me rewatching it after awhile.
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Re: Conflicting feelings on 00's ending

Soma Taozi wrote:Actually Brave Fencer Kirby, I see that quote as entirely appropriate to the end of Awakening of the Trailblazer.
Sure, but that's not my complaint. I agree that it works in context with the movie -- what I dislike about it is that it doesn't fit with the rest of the Gundam franchise, which has the exact opposite message: instead of "fighting never solves anything, only understanding brings peace" like Trailblazer, it's always been "some conflicts simply can't be resolved peacefully; sometimes you have to stand up and fight".
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