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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:32 am 
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I've been wondering about this too. I mean, just looking at the Full Armor Unicorn makes me assume he can't keep up this ludicrous level of pacifism, unless all those missiles are just for show.

Spoiler: show
Then again, I'm expecting a lot of "MIISSS MARRIIIDA!" in Ep 5. Sigh.

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Last edited by Chris on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We have SPOILER tags, so use the damn things if you're going to post novel spoilers.


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Geki wrote:
I haven't followed the novels so I'm not really up to speed (I own all the blu ray releases through 4), so forgive me for being ignorant... The battle scenes and mech porn are absolutely top notch. I'm a long time gundam fan for 30 years now (yeah I'm old). But man my tolerance for weepy gundam pilots is at it's end. Does Banagher get any better? Seeing this theme repeated over and over for the past 15+ years in about every series since 08th team is just, trying.

Granted the old shows had their moments too, but in a series so short like UC it just seems dominated by a whiny, weepy emo and it's driving me nuts.


Andrew_Graruru wrote:
I've been wondering about this too. I mean, just looking at the Full Armor Unicorn makes me assume he can't keep up this ludicrous level of pacifism, unless all those missiles are just for show.

Spoiler: show
Then again, I'm expecting a lot of "MIISSS MARRIIIDA!" in Ep 5. Sigh.


Emo...I hate it when that word gets thrown around. I don't see Banagher as emo at all. Emo implies that he's emotionally unstable, depressed, and self-centered to the point where they can get nothing done, and only wallow in their own self-pity. Banagher's pretty much the opposite; he's actually a remarkably strong person. I don't see him as a pacifist so much as someone with common sense and a objective view of what's happening around him. Think about it; He has rejected the self-enabling views and convictions put forth by Full Frontal, Marida, Daguza, and Zinnerman that enable them to rationalize their role in the conflict. Him calling out Zinnerman on being a huge hypocrite and beating the piss out of him was my favorite part of ep 4. He even called Mineva's on being impulsive when she said they had to destroy the Unicorn Gundam to prevent a war, and his insistence in calling her Audrey (while annoying) is kind of his way of saying that he would rather her find her own path rather than cling to the notion that she needs to take responsibility for the Zabi Family's actions, even at the cost of her own life.

He occasionally has doubts, but it's usually for good reason, and he always gets over his hesitation and takes action, not because of some false sense of duty or for anything like glory, but because he honestly feels like he can make a difference. Don't forget, when Daguza took Mineva hostage to protect the Nahel Argama, he went right out in the Unicorn to take out the Sleeves. That was pretty ballsy on his part. As for him disliking the idea of taking lives and crying about the absolutely crappy state the world's in, I don't think that means he's emo. If anything, Banagher's just a compassionate person. If Banagher suddenly dropped his compassionate nature and started whupping ass and taking names without giving a single ZOINKS like a lot of people seem to want him to, it would go against all the prevalent themes of the show, not to mention be inconsistent with his character development. It'd be SEED-level writing.

I guess what I'm saying is if you're expecting Banagher to suddenly turn into Kamina or Heero Yuy anytime soon, then you should probably stop watching Unicorn, because it just isn't that kind of story and Banagher just isn't that type of character.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:57 pm 
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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:20 am 
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Ok you don't like the word 'emo', to me it just means he's over-dramatic, which he is in spades. To the point of being annoying. Look, I have empathy for someone reacting to the horrors of war, but good grief they could tone it down some. Bawling, wailing and sky-clutching at every opportunity is tiring after a while. It just comes off as silly. Episode 4 was by far the worst.

I guess it would be easier to swallow (and more effective) if he reacted like a normal person would in these situations. Maybe it's just poor direction?

It's like watching a 7 year old girl who has watched too many soap operas reacting to everything.

"SANDWICH?! You want me to eat a SANDWICH?!? With MUSTARD?! (tears up) Mustard is why my parents DIIIIED! (clutches at the sky) WHYYYYYY!!?? All this time, I've avoided turkey on rye only to have it THROWN in my face now (streaming tears).

/quiet whispering to himself: this is the last time mustard tries to take over my life. It doesn't make sense. Why would they try to give me mustard? They must know there's no logic in this. I feel trapped!

/shouting and pounding on the chest of the cafeteria cook: YOU! YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS! And you don't even care! You see mustard every day and yet you slather it on turkey, for WHAT?! A tasty sandwich!?? AHHHHHHH" (passes out)



I'm not looking for a cold-calculated murderer here. Just some believable reactions to emotion. I don't think it's that hard to deal with. It's not like they haven't done it in the past. I'm not looking for a Kamina (great show, but yes very different) or Heero (very much disliked this char, he was the polar opposite of Banagher). But I expected something along the lines of 08th team (a little more realism with the human emotion aspect), which I don't think is asking for much in a UC OVA.


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Sometimes I think I'm numbed to odd and erratic character interactions after years of watching Tomino shows. I do agree though that I'd like more down to earth characterisation, though I'd point to 0080 more than 08TH MS TEAM.

I get the vibe from Banagher's character that the writers really want him to personify the ideal of a Newtype. His crying and preaching is melodramatic, but its all to do with the idea that he's very attuned to sadness in others and the world itself. I guess you can't get much more smaltzy than that, but it does fit with the idea of a newtype, at least the romanticised notion Unicorn wants to portray.

I wouldn't criticise the direction, I actually think the direction was VERY good in parts of episode 4, especially in the use of music. I feel it has more to do with the compression of the writing in adapting the novels. Banagher and Riddhe's development feels rushed, especially compared to the characters of Mineva, Zimmerman, and Marida's progression.

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:30 pm 
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I think it's important to take into consideration who Banagher is and what he's going through, as well. In the beginning of the series, he's remarkably depressed. His mother recently died, he (to his memory, anyway) has never had a father figure, and he's technically homeless without his school. He feels like he doesn't belong anywhere and he's generally emotionally detached from the rest of the world (he even says he doesn't feel like he has any stake in it.) Suddenly, he saves a girl, who's passion and desperation ignites emotions in him he thought pretty much dead (I'm pretty sure his newtype sensitivity helped with that) and now he's found a purpose through Audrey. Because of this, he practically clings to her like she's the last girl in the Earth's sphere. After this goes down, he later loses his friends during the battle in Industrial 7, finds out who his father is shortly before witnessing him get incinerated, has a responsibility to correct the horrendous mistakes the Universal Century pretty much dropped into his lap, kills numerous times in a mobile suit without even meaning to, gets captured, escapes, and gets recaptured, witnessed people who had a positive influence on him get killed in front of him, gets stuck in a desert, witnesses the massive hypocrisy of those around him regarding the justification of terrible atrocities in the name of silly, outdated ideologies and grudges, all coupled with the fact that he's ridiculously sensitive to the emotions and suffering of people on an psychic level thanks to the fact that he's a strong newtype. He's gone through more in two weeks than most Gundam protagonists go through in half a series (sometimes a whole series.)

I think it's okay to excuse a little melodrama on his part.

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:15 pm 
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at the very least, Banagher is consistent. he can't preach and cry that we shouldn't be fighting and all the reasons everyone gives for doing so are horseshit and then turn around and slaughter someone like Loni without a second thought. he at least has to try to get through to her; otherwise he's just Kira in the Universal Century. and when Banagher does kill people, it's pretty much either out of fear (that faceless Zulu pilot that Angelo had such a burr up his ass about) or anger (like blowing away Gilboa while raging after Full Frontal--and his anger vanished as soon as he realized who it was he killed). thus far i can't really think of anyone he's unambiguously intentionally killed.

with that said, yes, i am absolutely tired of Gundam protagonists who preach about how we should all be getting along and fighting is not the way from the cockpits of their walking weapons of mass destruction. it's sort of a weird inversion of Gundam, because for all its faults while Tomino was at the helm, Gundam did have one very consistent theme about idealism: it's bad. and yet here we've had idealist after idealist at the controls of some hyper-powered death machine, with Banagher as thus far only the most recent.

i suppose time will tell whether or not Banagher stays this way or not, because so far, he's been pretty ineffective at imposing his ideals on reality.


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:45 pm 
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ShadowCell wrote:
Gundam did have one very consistent theme about idealism: it's bad. and yet here we've had idealist after idealist at the controls of some hyper-powered death machine, with Banagher as thus far only the most recent.


Idealism has a number of definitions, though. Unicorn's prevalent theme is that subjective forms of idealism are bad, and are part of what lead to things like conflict. Banagher doesn't adhere to any form of established idealism as it's defined in Gundam. He's rejected all of the ideals imposed on him by other people, whether it be the notion that Spacenoids needed a group of despots like Zeon to give them the strength to attain freedom from the Earth Federation's oppression, or the idea of looking up to a unified world state to bring about peace, or smaller, more abstract things like retribution in the form of violence on the offender, or imposing a grim responsibility left behind by someone else on yourself (there's a bit of irony in this one, considering his role in the story. Loni points that out rather well.) If there's one thing very consistant about Banagher, it's that he doesn't attach himself to any concrete ideals or doctrines, but rather does what he feels is right in his own heart.

Banagher's an idealist in that he doesn't like the realities people present to him, and talks about how things could be if people weren't so flawed, but seeing as the Unicorn Gundam is defined as "The Beast of Possibility" and "the symbol of hope," that's kind of what makes him the ideal candidate as it's pilot, especially now that it's up to him to use Laplace's box to somehow fix UC. It's better to have someone who's dedicated to bringing about a better overall future, rather than someone who believes in the resurrection of Zeon and it's twisted ideals about Spacenoid autonomy (read; superiority) or the flawed, unified world state the Federation enforces. His form of idealism is more objective, and the fact that he's been on both sides and seen their stories helps him to see things in a much more objective light than anyone else.

And like you said, he's consistent. He may talk about stopping all the fighting from the cockpit of his ultra-powerful death robot, but you also mentioned that he never intentionally used it to kill anyone. The Unicorn Gundam is, lets face it, one of the most h4x Gundams in UC, but Banagher's very conservative about using the power it grants him. He refused to use the beam magnum against the Garencieres team, deeming it "too powerful," and actually considered surrendering over using lethal force to rectify the situation. During the fight with Loni, he's finally able to tap into the power of the NT-D at will, and the first thing he does with it is try to reach out to her and get her to stop, rather than fight her with it. He's par for the course for Gundam protagonists, but he's probably one of the few that religiously practices the ideals he espouses.

Spoiler: show
Besides, he's not totally against the use of lethal force. He kills Full Frontal very much on purpose in the novels.

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:25 am 
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I'm really happy to see Unicorn won best OAV at TAF! While I didn't like episode 3 and 4 quite as much as the first two, its still an extremely high quality, cinematic work which I think deserves the recognition.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.co.uk/news/ ... air-awards

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:09 pm 
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ShadowCell wrote:
at the very least, Banagher is consistent. he can't preach and cry that we shouldn't be fighting and all the reasons everyone gives for doing so are horseshit and then turn around and slaughter someone like Loni without a second thought. he at least has to try to get through to her; otherwise he's just Kira in the Universal Century. and when Banagher does kill people, it's pretty much either out of fear (that faceless Zulu pilot that Angelo had such a burr up his ass about) or anger (like blowing away Gilboa while raging after Full Frontal--and his anger vanished as soon as he realized who it was he killed). thus far i can't really think of anyone he's unambiguously intentionally killed.

with that said, yes, i am absolutely tired of Gundam protagonists who preach about how we should all be getting along and fighting is not the way from the cockpits of their walking weapons of mass destruction. it's sort of a weird inversion of Gundam, because for all its faults while Tomino was at the helm, Gundam did have one very consistent theme about idealism: it's bad. and yet here we've had idealist after idealist at the controls of some hyper-powered death machine, with Banagher as thus far only the most recent.

i suppose time will tell whether or not Banagher stays this way or not, because so far, he's been pretty ineffective at imposing his ideals on reality.


I think a big problem is that somewhere along the line it seems to have been decided that the theme of Gundam is 'kids/teenagers always know best", which really wasn't the message of the UC shows. The young protagonists might have been free of the biases ground in as of adult life but at the same time they could also be immature and shortsighted, factors they needed the older character's guidance to help grow out of. In particular, going alongside the 'preaching from a super weapon' angle we seem to increasingly have this thing where the main cast have to start out with an organization but split off because clearly they know better then anyone. Compare with the original series; the White Base crew might not always have been the Federation's biggest fans but they stuck with them to the end in fact became increasingly involved with the chain of command. If the series was being made now, seemingly Amuro would convince everyone the White Base needs to go solo and fight both factions.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:23 pm 
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It should probably be noted that, while he's been shuffled around between both factions, Banagher has only actually fought against Neo Zeon. He hasn't yet pulled a Three Ships Alliance, and the Federation hasn't been depicted as being a villainous faction (or not any more so than they usually are).

In addition, though Banagher has occasionally gotten a little preachy with his own ideals, they clearly haven't been reflected by the reality that he inhabits (as noted by Shadow). Which is a nice change, I think; sure, Banagher's idealistic, but it's pretty obvious that he doesn't actually "know best", no matter how much he thinks he does.

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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Apparently there's a new manga(?) called Gundam UC Testament coming 3/10. What does this description say?

Quote:
虎哉孝征が描く機動戦士ガンダムUCを一挙収録! 今ここに、MSの視点から歴史が語られる!!


http://www.kadokawa.co.jp/comic/bk_deta ... 1112000423


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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:47 pm 
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It's basically the compilation version of the Char and Delta stories that ran in Gundam UC Ace.


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:42 am 
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I'll nip in here, too. I used spoiler-tags where I felt appropriate although I guess most people here have seen ep 4.

I saw it little less than a week ago and I really liked it; watched it three times in the last week, although skipping the usual "why are people so violent" -rhetoricals on the later viewings. I think someone pointed out in a separate thread that this ep was especially good because the Unicorn (or other Gundams) didn't dominate all the way. But this I mean that grunt-on-grunt -action, albeit with specialized custom suits, was very well played out. Both in Dakar and Torrington grunts were having at it in a very visually pleasing a dramatic way.

Episode 4 also had a slightly different perspective, rolling without the usual "white horse" of the show, and I was really surprised (positively so, because it ties Unicorn better to UC to have some people pop in who're important in the timeline and could conceivably have a reason to be there) to see
Spoiler: show
Bright
make an entry. I forgot to check the credits, is it the real voice actor?

I did find it... amusing, that the Sleeves/Neo Zeon still had things like the big red weapon of mass destruction hidden somewhere on Earth; it looks like the Feddies will never ever manage to mop up massively powerful insurgency groups even if they'd have decades to it in. ;)

And, well, poor Loni. That was a Gundam staple if I ever saw one, right up to the point where
Spoiler: show
she blocked the last beam of her own with the heli-reflector-bits only to be shot by Riddhe.
I do hope Riddhe is not reduced to simplistic black-and-whiter due to his exchange with his dad. He gives me a bit of an Athrun-vibe, and I could see him turning coats in a similar fashion. But boy, the final scene where he
Spoiler: show
grabbed the Unicorn's beam magnum, fired it, and then even suffered a malfunction as a result
was very good; it felt well down and plausible, which isn't a given thing in any Gundam.

Finally, for whatever odd reason, I thought that this OVA would only be 4 episodes. So when the
Spoiler: show
black Unicorn (Banshee?)
dropped from the sky and the episode ended, you can imagine me going "wat?" in a calm and subdued manner. ;)
Spoiler: show
Too bad that the search for confirmation of more eps spoiled me that Marida, evidently, will die. :(

But it ended with a cliffhanger and no mistake, and I'm really looking forward to the next ep.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:43 am 
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Bright's original actor passed away back in '06 due to lung cancer. (if I remember correctly)


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:53 am 
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Hirotaka Suzuoki for Bright Noah if I remember right.
And Lung Cancer it was, aged 56, he was young. :(


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Antares wrote:

I did find it... amusing, that the Sleeves/Neo Zeon still had things like the big red weapon of mass destruction hidden somewhere on Earth; it looks like the Feddies will never ever manage to mop up massively powerful insurgency groups even if they'd have decades to it in. ;)


It's implied that the Federation lets Zeon remnants romp around the Earth's sphere because it gives proper justification for them to maintain a military presence throughout.

Also, the Shamblo is a leftover from Haman's Neo Zeon that was constructed in secret by teh Garvey Corporation. It's existence isn't entirely silly.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:20 am 
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J-Lead wrote:
Also, the Shamblo is a leftover from Haman's Neo Zeon that was constructed in secret by teh Garvey Corporation. It's existence isn't entirely silly.

I was wondring why Full Frontal mentioned Haman. Makes me wonder why Char never tried to acquire the thing himself.


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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:16 am 
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Slightly related to the Unicorn animation since it concerns the Prototype Stark Jegan's pilots. Here's a summary of the Prototype Stark Jegan's manga from Gundam UC ACE vol 2.

As part of Prototype Stark Jegan's combat testing, it is deployed in a mission to remove zeon remnants at a certain area (seems to be at Jaburo). It is later revealed that several unidentified MS attacks occur in that area and it is implied that the EF attributes it to zeon remnants. In the Prototype Stark Jegan’s cockpit, one console is for MS control while the other is for the weapon systems. Other than an EF pilot in the cockpit, there is also an AE technician recording the combat data.

Although the Prototype Stark Jegan defeats a Zaku 2, the pilot refuse to kill the zaku 2's pilot as the order did not ask them to annihilate zeon remnants. It seems that most of the people then are taught that zeons are similar to the alien invaders in science fiction stories. Zaku 2’s pilot is actually a war orphan who is later adopted by one of the MS pilots that are abandoned on earth by Zeon. To survive on earth, they build their own village and turn to farming. The zaku 2 pilot is just trying to protect his village from the unidentified MS attacks.

The rest of the EF squad is later attacked by unidentified MS. The zaku 2’s pilot tries to reactivate his MS as the attack is near the village. The EF pilot also wants to protect the village but as the technician is injured by a snake bite, he asks the zaku 2’s pilot to help with the MS control as he is familiar with the surrounding. The EF pilot serves as an MS instructor before and from their earlier battle; he can see that his piloting skill is rather good. The unidentified MS belongs to a barbaric military group called ‘Barbless’; they kill and raid for their own purpose. As they operate in areas that are difficult to monitor, EF has difficulties tracking them.

Interestingly, the Prototype Stark Jegan’s control setting can be changed to match those of zaku 2’s. By changing some sensor setting, it is possible to improve their sensitivity by 185% while under gravity. It is also possible to make the MS move faster by changing some other MS settings.

As the incident involves someone close to zeon remnants, the investigation committee decides to omit his name. The existence of Barbless is also removed from record as EF cannot track them and because it is embarrassing that captured EF MS is used for criminal acts. As a result, EF covers up the combat testing as testing of Jegan’s bazooka. The EF pilot then recommends the zaku 2 pilot to be a EF pilot and together they control the Prototype Stark Jegan that appears in the Unicorn movie. That is also the first time the Prototype Stark Jegan work with the production type Stark Jegan.


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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Thanks a lot E08! Nice background history there.


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