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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Siroh32 wrote:
LightningCount wrote:
The lack of a dub is near tragic, though; it clearly deserves one. (I'll be crushed if Gundam X doesn't get a dub in the future).


I understand not everyone likes reading subtitles and there are those more open to dubs, and in some ways, I can get how they feel. But I would take reading subs over having Turn A Gundam (and Gundam X) dubbed any day, given how wonderful a job the original voice actors have done (which I believe can be judged even by a person who doesn't know the original language the anime/show/movie/etc. uses). I tend to fall in the category of wincing at the performances of English-dubbed non-North American animation and games, and from briefly looking at YT videos of Gundam Musou 3 in English, I feel justified in continuing my opinion, so we'll just have to agree to disagree here. *shrug*


Here's where I stand: Yeah, I can respect and even enjoy the feelings and tones of its native language with subtitles. But at the end of the day, the Japanese don't have to read while watching their animation, and other countries' animation doesn't or rarely requires a great deal of reading, as this distracts from the richness and dynamic nature of the visuals. Therefore, if the dub is of good quality, I find it a natural feature to animation--foreign or homegrown. (Though by all means, keep the native language on it as an option also; I mean, we're not in the age of VHS, so that data can fit in harmony). I think Turn-A, and to a greater extent if it comes to pass, Gundam X, make me sad that they lack dubs because the other AUs from that pre-SEED generation (G, Wing, Endless Waltz) all have dubs, and pretty fitting/strong ones at that. I watched those dubbed more than subbed, so it's sad not to have their most immediate brethren given the same treatment. At the end of the day, this is an economic issue more than anything, but then, if things are sub only, they should be a little less in cost due to not paying for a dub. (Though, I'd be willing to pay a little extra for dubs on standout anime like these). And while Gundam Musou 3 has a lot of mediocre or bad dubs attached to it, not all Gundam projects do. Check out the dub samples sprinkled in these old Gundam-related, Cartoon Network Toonami/Adult Swim promos (if you're not familiar with them). They're not long. And it should be noted that Gundam Musou 3 and others didn't even bother to keep the same dub actors who originally did the roles in most cases.

Wing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-M2wLj9 ... re=related
G-Gundam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdisFZ10 ... re=related
Wing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-cwJD3o ... re=related
G-Gundam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7d3sI6iqcU
EW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9IZgyDb5fg
08th MS Team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6b7FRL0 ... re=related
0083: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR2I7lmB ... re=related

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:08 pm 
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Based on the voice given to Loran in Gundam Musou 2, I'm actually glad it isn't getting a dub. He sounds awful, and completely out of character.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:25 pm 
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LightningCount wrote:
But at the end of the day, the Japanese don't have to read while watching their animation, and other countries' animation doesn't or rarely requires a great deal of reading, as this distracts from the richness and dynamic nature of the visuals.


I've been hearing this complaint from people going on 15 years, and I just don't see any basis for it. Your eyes can focus on multiple things at the same time. If you watch anything subtitled for a bit, you get used to this and it isn't an issue at all.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:36 am 
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Chris wrote:
LightningCount wrote:
But at the end of the day, the Japanese don't have to read while watching their animation, and other countries' animation doesn't or rarely requires a great deal of reading, as this distracts from the richness and dynamic nature of the visuals.


I've been hearing this complaint from people going on 15 years, and I just don't see any basis for it. Your eyes can focus on multiple things at the same time. If you watch anything subtitled for a bit, you get used to this and it isn't an issue at all.

Quoted for truth.

When I go long periods of time without watching anything subtitled, it can be somewhat jarring...for the first five minutes. I recommend everyone to watch their favorite English speaking movie with subtitles, just once. You'll find the experience enriching, I think.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:03 am 
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I also agree that watching anime subtitled is generally better than watching it dubbed. While watching subs can be straining at first, you'll quickly get used to the practice. There are times when even I catch myself reading subtitles and not paying attention to the animation very much. However, it's very rare, and when it happens it's normally because I'm also distracted from something else (I do this a lot while reading manga; I'll find myself reading and reading before I realize that I'm not really paying attention to the drawings...however, that's not really related to subtitles).

LightningCount, I very much see your point about anime not normally being created with subtitles in mind, and that the most pure way to watch the anime is while not having to read the dialogue. At times having to read subtitles can take away from the anime. However, I personally find it more distracting when the voices are changed from their originals. Unlike most animated productions in the United States (and other places), the Japanese take pride in their voice talents within the anime industry, and a good quality anime normally has a good quality cast. This can make all of the difference in how the viewer perceives emotions from the characters while watching a certain anime. More often than not, the English dubs don't equal the quality of the Japanese voices. The time, budget, emotions, and care are just not there most of the time. So, while neither subtitles or English dubs are perfect, I think at the end of the day it's better to miss a few frames of animation from time to time than to (potentially) completely misinterpret characters due to poor acting.

At the end of the day unless you understand Japanese, there's no perfect way to watch anime. I am currently teaching myself Japanese from various sources, and I plan to take a course or two in the matter in the future. This is the only way to really watch anime the way it was intended. But, for the majority of English-speaking people (myself included of course) that don't speaking Japanese, I do recommend watching anime subtitled.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:37 am 
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ummm... why does one have to be better than the other?
I think it all comes down to preference in the end. Personally, I prefer dubs but I have no problem with people who prefer subs, I just don't appreciate it when people use it as an excuse to condescend to others. Granted their will always be crappy voice acting (tee-tonns, lol), but I'd be willing to bet even Japan has them.

Also, don't assume your viewing experience will necessarily apply to others. People are a wildly diverse bunch and just because watching something and reading subtitles is easy or comfortable for some doesn't mean it's going to work out the same way for others.

Lastly, I'm of the mind that if you cannot speak a language you are not qualified to accurately judge a performance done in said language. Languages are pretty complex, and without understanding a given language I just have a hard time believing a person can fully grasp the subtle cues and intonations necessary to make an informed enough appraisal. You can of course give an opinion on the performance you do understand but, making a comparison would be highly speculative at best. Or, maybe it's just me?


As for Turn A: I don't care one way of the other, I'm just happy to have the chance to add it to my collection. I doubt I'll be rushing out the door to get it but, simply knowing that it's there is enough to make me happy. 8)

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:53 am 
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On occassions I find it a a small problem if the speaker goes fast and you have like 1-2 seconds to read a fair bit of subtitles, where as in dubs.
I don't have that problem so I disagree.

Sure it's possible to focus on both but sometimes it aint easy.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Outlaw wrote:
Lastly, I'm of the mind that if you cannot speak a language you are not qualified to accurately judge a performance done in said language. Languages are pretty complex, and without understanding a given language I just have a hard time believing a person can fully grasp the subtle cues and intonations necessary to make an informed enough appraisal. You can of course give an opinion on the performance you do understand but, making a comparison would be highly speculative at best. Or, maybe it's just me?

I agree with you about the other stuff and I don't necessarily disagree with you here, but I was wondering how do you apply this logic to operas? I realize an opera is pretty different than listening to people speak and have a conversation, but the majority of them are in different languages. Would you make the argument that unless you speak Italian or German, you can't truly appreciate an opera? Just curious to get your take on that.

And still no word on Turn A's price? :(


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Spiegel wrote:
I agree with you about the other stuff and I don't necessarily disagree with you here, but I was wondering how do you apply this logic to operas? I realize an opera is pretty different than listening to people speak and have a conversation, but the majority of them are in different languages. Would you make the argument that unless you speak Italian or German, you can't truly appreciate an opera? Just curious to get your take on that.


Well, the fact that opera is musical does complicate things up a bit but, with its strong focus on solo work and performance I think understanding the language might add to the experience. However, I have never been an opera fan (unless you count Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd) so I'm not the best source for asking about opera enjoyment.

I do feel that I should clarify that my intention was not to say that people couldn't enjoy the performance, just that they aren't necessarily in a position to make a sufficiently informed comparison.

I will say though, that was a very good point. I tip my hat to you sir.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Outlaw wrote:
Well, the fact that opera is musical does complicate things up a bit but, with its strong focus on solo work and performance I think understanding the language might add to the experience. However, I have never been an opera fan (unless you count Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd) so I'm not the best source for asking about opera enjoyment.

I do feel that I should clarify that my intention was not to say that people couldn't enjoy the performance, just that they aren't necessarily in a position to make a sufficiently informed comparison.

I will say though, that was a very good point. I tip my hat to you sir.

It is really interesting because most operas give you a translation that you can read along with while you watch/listen to the performance. Unfortunately, I'm not bilingual (yeah, I'm American) and only know rudimentary German. I don't think I'm qualified to say it's more enjoyable to see a German opera compared to an Italian opera based on language, because I don't truly know either.

I suppose the question goes above both our heads. Though, I can say that it's possible to tell the difference between two different people performing the same piece. You're right that without fully knowing the language, you are at a disadvantage when it comes to certain nuances. With German, I can tell if someone is speaking with a southern accent or a northern, but I couldn't go beyond that. So, I think it is fair to say that without a true mastery of a language, we're unable to be academically critical of a performance. Like you said earlier, it doesn't stop anyone from having an opinion, but it may not be as accurate as someone who has achieved Japanese fluency.

Overall, it's an interesting topic for discussion.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:45 pm 
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While certain nuances will certainly be lost on you if you can't speak the language, I don't think the quality of the actual ACTING part of the voice acting is. Emotions are easy to detect, as is how natural the speaking is. Stilted and awkward still sounds stilted and awkward, regardless of the language. A lot is lost when a viewer lacks linguistic understanding: there's no way to tell if the dialog is written well, for example, and not being a native speaker bars the viewer from ever critically examining and dissecting the original lines. However, good acting is good acting, and I think a reasonably skilled ear can still pick up on the quality regardless of language.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:34 pm 
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I'm free choice. The option should be there for the audience to choose whether or not to listen to dub or read subtitles.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:40 am 
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Darkerangel wrote:
I'm free choice. The option should be there for the audience to choose whether or not to listen to dub or read subtitles.


That's nice and all, except for when the cost of a dub makes a release unprofitable. If Turn A had to be dubbed, it'd never make it here, so subtitles is the only option. For those who are bothered by that and insist on dubs, they just have to deal with it.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:44 am 
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Chris wrote:
LightningCount wrote:
But at the end of the day, the Japanese don't have to read while watching their animation, and other countries' animation doesn't or rarely requires a great deal of reading, as this distracts from the richness and dynamic nature of the visuals.


I've been hearing this complaint from people going on 15 years, and I just don't see any basis for it. Your eyes can focus on multiple things at the same time. If you watch anything subtitled for a bit, you get used to this and it isn't an issue at all.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:25 pm 
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If Turn- A will be SUB only, and as we so far know it has been confirmed, and you only like to watch English language anime then do what I am dong....do buy it. Now you can argue that this will only serve ti injure the American Anime industry, but you could also argue that it will encourage studios to offer regional language options. No one can say what effect it will have, only Bandai-Ent marketing division knows how they will interpret feed back like that. Any way I agree Darkerangel, Ideally there should 'free choice', but I also agree with Chris that the cost of pursuing a Dub is not appealing if you can not recuperate the cost. Media is a fickel industry. Up sales of a Sub may encourage more Dub options, or down sales of a Sub may merely reinforce perceptions already held in Bandai-Ent marketing. There are a million scenarios that may result. At the end of the day it is simply a matter of this; if you don't want to watch Turn- A Subbed, don't buy it. If you want a Dub, petition it. Will it change there decision , I can't tell you since I'm NOT head of their marketing department. That's my two cents.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:28 pm 
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kmagryffindor wrote:
[...]If you want a Dub, petition it.[...]


I think it's also important to note that, like you said, talk with your wallet. If you are displeased with a product that Bandai Entertainment (or anyone) releases, the best way to relay that message is to not buy it. However, you can do more than just that. By not buying a sub-only release, Bandai could infer that people simply don't what whatever anime was released.

To let Bandai know that you would actually buy the anime if it had a dub track, don't go and sign some online petition. Those very, very, very rarely have any effect whatsoever. Instead you can always email or write to a company. Send a respectful letter explaining why you didn't buy a product that you would like to own, and that if the product was changed that you would purchase it. These normally get read by someone, and can actually produce results. Companies want to make money; so if enough people express their opinion about the matter and speak with their wallets about a particular product, they could very well change it to receive that income.

Like people have stated before, the primary reason for anime coming to the United States (or other territories) without dub tracks is all about costs. If the company can't justify the cost to make the dub, then it won't happen. However, sometimes the companies simply don't know that there is a demand for a product, or for a product to be released a certain way. Again, let it be known via email or letter. And the most important part: if the product is released with the dub track afterwards, speak with your wallet again! Buy the product and show your support.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:48 pm 
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It too Bandai over ten years to give us MSG in a subtitled format... I don't think asking for the reverse with Turn A Gundam will work. That is unless sales are blown out of the water or something, which I highly doubt will happen anyways.


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:27 am 
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I find it a courtesy that we're even getting Turn A. I remember the years of con reports when we were promised 'BEI will release every Gundam', followed by the point it hit home that this was likely never going to happen. To seemingly be back on track with that is welcome.

As for DWG, I found those games have actually made me want to see the unreleased shows dubbed. The voice work for characters like Judau and Katejina is pretty solid. In terms of Turn A, the only one I don't really care for is Sochie's voice debuting in 3.

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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:02 pm 
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I am very glad to hear they're releasing Turn A. It will likely still be a long way in coming, but this at least gives me some hope that we may one day see subbed international releases of Victory, X, and ZZ.

I expect they'll work their way backwards, as far as series vintage. Newer stuff will likely sell better. But I intend to buy the majority of what comes out, in order to show my monetary and consumer support for any efforts to continue doing subbed releases. We the consumers will ultimately be the ones who will, with our wallets, tell Bandai whether they should actually send these series overseas at long last.

I have not seen Turn A, but have heard good things, and want to verify whether it's all that people say it is. If it's decent, I'll sure as hell buy it when it comes out, even thought its just a barebones sub release.

Above all else, I want Victory Gundam. It's by far one of the least popular series, but I am halfway into it and I really enjoy it thus far. I just hope it doesn't slide under the radar after Turn A gets released, and that they'll eventually get around to it. I'd like to actually purchase the series, to show my support for the work. If you like something, it's worth paying for.

Glad to see that Bandai is at last going to throw the NA fanbase a bone with a release of Turn A. I just hope they keep it up with the other series.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Someone gave me a fan-sub of Turn A, and my wife, who normally hates reading subtitles, actually sat and enjoyed it. I think the juxtaposing of the two levels of technologies and the differences in the basic story line (no Gundam snatch in the first episode) held her interest. So, maybe this will be more palatable to many people than the usual sub-titled anime. A word: being a musician, I really detest anyone downloading music or visual works without paying for it, but this came in the mail from a well-meaning friend and, as hypocritical as it was, I immediately sat down and enjoyed the #*&& out of it. So, if Turn A does come to the states commercially, I can buy it and asuage my soul! Hallelujah!


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