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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:48 pm 
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With the impending Origin adaptation, and considering how often the question of what exactly is different has come up, I thought I'd start compiling some of the changes Yas gave to the story. And there are quite a few; certainly more than I expected!

I want to do an episode-by-episode in-depth comparison eventually, and I'll post all those here, but for now, I'll start with some of the larger, more general changes.

-Mobile Suit Development - more information on the actual development history will come later, as I get through the Flashback Volumes, but basically the Federation had MS before the OYW. The Guntank and Guncannon are both mass-produced older model MS (and are often referred to as such 旧型, lit. "old type"), and the White Base is equipped with three each that slowly get eliminated during their odyssey to Jaburo. They're depicted as incredibly inferior to even Zakus throughout. Job John is a Guncannon pilot.

-Location Change - This starts out minor (the White Base has its showdown with Garma in LA, not New "Yark"), and slowly becomes a major change. It doesn't make its way around the world as in the series; instead, it slowly makes its way down the Western coast of North America, through Mexico, and eventually into South America and over the Andes towards Jaburo (which is located in the same place, in northeast South America). All encounters up through the first Black Tri-Stars battle have been adapted accordingly. Odessa is still in Europe, though, which brings me to...

-The Jaburo and Odessa conflicts are flipped - Arguably the biggest change thus far, and just like it sounds: Odessa is an offensive that begins after the WB arrives in Jaburo and GMs are introduced, as opposed to an operation that occurs during the White Base's journey.

-White Base Name Change - Midway through the series, after arriving in Jaburo, the White Base is given a refit and renamed the Pegasus, acting as the "name ship" of the same class (the only other one named thus far is the 7th of the line, the Albatross).

Once I'm done the Jaburo arc, I'll begin a more in-depth analysis from episode to episode. Questions are also more than welcome!

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:35 pm 
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With the Guncannon and Guntank being produced before the OYW how did this affect the first days of the war? Was Operation British pretty much the same except with Guncannons and Guntanks floating about?

Also is there a reason for the White Base traveling to Jaburo through Central and South America besides the fact that Odessa happens after the White Base's visit to Jaburo?

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Thanks for the information! It will be nice to see your "change log" of sorts as you go through the manga, as most English-speaking Gundam fans (including myself) can't read through the entire manga as it's Japanese-only (not including the limited amount that was actually released in the United States). There are a lot of misconceptions about what Gundam: The Origin has and hasn't changed, so hopefully this can be compiled into a great list that will help clear some of the confusion up. This can also serve as a great comparison between the manga and (eventual) animated work that comes out as well, as I don't think we'll be seeing an English version of the Gundam: The Origin manga anytime soon (or ever).


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Red Comet90 wrote:
With the Guncannon and Guntank being produced before the OYW how did this affect the first days of the war? Was Operation British pretty much the same except with Guncannons and Guntanks floating about?

Also is there a reason for the White Base traveling to Jaburo through Central and South America besides the fact that Odessa happens after the White Base's visit to Jaburo?


As for the first point, they seem to have more or less played out in the same fashion. The early days of the war still went down in a similar fashion, as far as I can tell - the colony is still dropped, and Loum at least happened. There's actually a bit of exposition given by Job about the latter, but no new info comes out of it; it's just about how the Tri-Stars captured Revil (though he does mention that it's the first battle where MS really showed their combat value). Loum is covered in more depth in a future volume, thankfully, so hopefully that will clear things up a bit.

Concerning the second, no in-universe reason is given. I suspect Yas put Odessa later so as to divide the series along the themes of "Fleeing" (the White Base booking it to Jaburo, undersupplied and undercrewed) and "Attacking" (striking back against Zeon once they have the means to do so). It makes sense, and works well so far, but I also haven't read the Odessa volumes. They come after the extensive flashback arc, so it'll be a while yet before I get there, unfortunately.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:24 pm 
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Kratos wrote:
There's actually a bit of exposition given by Job about the latter, but no new info comes out of it; it's just about how the Tri-Stars captured Revil (though he does mention that it's the first battle where MS really showed their combat value).


So according to him the MS is an unproven machine until this point? It seems rather strange that the Federation would have any MS at this point given that the Mobile Suit didn't really have the highest combat value on the battlefield.

Kratos wrote:
Concerning the second, no in-universe reason is given. I suspect Yas put Odessa later so as to divide the series along the themes of "Fleeing" (the White Base booking it to Jaburo, undersupplied and undercrewed) and "Attacking" (striking back against Zeon once they have the means to do so). It makes sense, and works well so far, but I also haven't read the Odessa volumes. They come after the extensive flashback arc, so it'll be a while yet before I get there, unfortunately.


That would make sense if he was splitting up the manga like that. Its a shame you haven't gotten that far. It sounds really interesting so far. Thanks. I really appreciate all the work you put into this so that people who can't read Japanese (like me) can see the differences.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Red Comet90 wrote:
So according to him the MS is an unproven machine until this point? It seems rather strange that the Federation would have any MS at this point given that the Mobile Suit didn't really have the highest combat value on the battlefield.


Yeah, it is a little odd. All we know, though, is that Guntanks and 'Cannons are "old type" MS; that's literally the only commentary we've gotten. It's one of the few changes that I'm not totally sold on yet, and the only major one. It works well with Guntanks, but the 'Cannons are a bit much, and it actually opens a bigger discrepency: why leave Amuro on the Gundam? There are at least two competent Guncannon pilots aboard the White Base (Job and a guy named Danny), and who are part of the military and thus far more likely to follow orders and respect the chain of command. At least in MSG, the Federation had NO mobile suits, so nobody was trained on them and Amuro was as good a choice as anyone. It's fairly easy to overlook, especially considering the otherwise great storytelling quality of the series, but it is a bit of a questionable choice. I'm looking forward to some expansion on the concept.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:57 pm 
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I saw the post title and was immediately expecting to see it followed up with "And there are legion..." Character-based, even, and not all of them for the better.

But this one I somehow missed.
Kratos wrote:
-White Base Name Change - Midway through the series, after arriving in Jaburo, the White Base is given a refit and renamed the Pegasus,

WHAT?!?

Lame, Yas. :?

I suppose I react like this due to shock, and because checking the very final chapter again Bright is referring to the ship as "White Base", which I suppose possibly means that the EFF were just being lame by proxy and this is one of the ways the crew didn't let themselves be pushed around.

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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:51 am 
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Kratos wrote:
Red Comet90 wrote:
So according to him the MS is an unproven machine until this point? It seems rather strange that the Federation would have any MS at this point given that the Mobile Suit didn't really have the highest combat value on the battlefield.


Yeah, it is a little odd. All we know, though, is that Guntanks and 'Cannons are "old type" MS; that's literally the only commentary we've gotten. It's one of the few changes that I'm not totally sold on yet, and the only major one. It works well with Guntanks, but the 'Cannons are a bit much, and it actually opens a bigger discrepency: why leave Amuro on the Gundam? There are at least two competent Guncannon pilots aboard the White Base (Job and a guy named Danny), and who are part of the military and thus far more likely to follow orders and respect the chain of command. At least in MSG, the Federation had NO mobile suits, so nobody was trained on them and Amuro was as good a choice as anyone. It's fairly easy to overlook, especially considering the otherwise great storytelling quality of the series, but it is a bit of a questionable choice. I'm looking forward to some expansion on the concept.


Here's a possible explain for the Federation having MSs that I came up with. Before the war breaks out the Federation discovers that Zeon is researching mobile suit development and sees the MS as a potential tool for CQC situations especially against enemy mobile suits. However since it is expected that any war fought will primarily involve mid to long range weapons (Minosky particles have not been introduced yet) the Federation's mobile suit project is given limited funding and priority.

However there is one thing I would like to know. Did the Federation have a lot of mobile suits when the OYW broke out or were they limited in numbers? If the MS was greatly used by the Federation when the war broke out then that cancels out my argument since it hinges on the assumption that the Federation did not see how valuable MSs would become in the war.


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:27 am 
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If you think about it compared to World War II to it'll all make more sense.

Like the Allies after the first World War, the Earth Federation isn't expecting some huge conflict, so development of weapons falls by the wayside. The Principality on the other hand, plans on starting a war, so they want to make everything bigger, badder, and more devastating than ever before.

The Nazi's introduced the modern mechanized army to the world in the most violent and bloody way imaginable. Zeon did the same with a combination of Minovsky particle physics and mobile suits.

Compare early Allied tanks to German Panzers and you'll see what I mean.


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:36 am 
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harotype wrote:
I saw the post title and was immediately expecting to see it followed up with "And there are legion..." Character-based, even, and not all of them for the better.


True, but MOST of them are for the better. At worst, the ones that aren't for the better are neutral. There are maybe one or two that are for the worse, thus far, and mostly they're minor.

harotype wrote:
But this one I somehow missed.
Kratos wrote:
-White Base Name Change - Midway through the series, after arriving in Jaburo, the White Base is given a refit and renamed the Pegasus,

WHAT?!?

Lame, Yas. :?

I suppose I react like this due to shock, and because checking the very final chapter again Bright is referring to the ship as "White Base", which I suppose possibly means that the EFF were just being lame by proxy and this is one of the ways the crew didn't let themselves be pushed around.


The thing is, this is just what I've picked up so far. Specific references to the White Base have been few and far between since its arrival at Jaburo, and similar to the final chapter quote you provided, the crew still calls it White Base. There are two lines thus far, by Gen. Gopp and a document given to Amuro describing his formal rank and assignment, that refer to it as the Pegasus. So it's possible that things are exactly as you say: to the Feds, it's the Pegasus, but to the crew it will always be the White Base. We'll see how it's referred to by each respective party when the Odessa arc begins in a few volumes. I am interested, though: what makes the name change "lame"? I know White Base is traditional, but you gotta admit, Pegasus is a much less awkward and more standard warship name (and, if I recall correctly, is indeed the name of the ship in Tomino's novels...which this could be a nod to).

I hope to finish the Jaburo arc by the end of next week, and afterwards begin the more in-depth analysis, so stay tuned!

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Last edited by Kratos on Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:54 am 
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TheGundamMKII wrote:
Compare early Allied tanks to German Panzers and you'll see what I mean.

You mean like how French tanks completely out-classed German tanks in 1940? Or how most German tanks until '41 were armed with only a heavy machinegun?

WWII analogies are only as good as most people's knowledge of the minutiae of history; and as in many things, what "everybody knows" about history is not always what the facts support. It wasn't German technology which enabled blitzkrieg, it was German tactics; German tanks & armored vehicles didn't start dominating technologically until late '41 and early '42. Having a radio in every tank, and using tanks as cavalry more than made up for the other material deficiencies of the early German panzers (which were many). But these facts make it extremely dubious to compare OYW MS to WWII tanks -- only America and Japan were categorically behind the Germans in tank design in 1939. The Poles and Czechs were if anything a little ahead, and the French fairly well ahead -- which is why the Germans outfitted some of their Panzer units with Czech designs after occupying Czechoslovakia in early '39, and gave captured French tanks to their Balkan allies.

Nor was the Wehrmacht ever fully mechanized; only two militaries got rid of the horse completely by 1945, and they spoke the same language: English. Everyone else continued to use the horse for a great deal of their transportation needs, because they didn't have the economic strength to waste on motorized transport.


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:22 am 
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Reindeer and other pack animals were also Important to the Allied war effort.

What I'm trying to say is that both the style and tools used were radically different from what came before.

And I'd like to know the specifics of the French tank. Sounds interesting, and it's something I haven't heard of.


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Kratos wrote:
True, but MOST of them are for the better. At worst, the ones that aren't for the better are neutral. There are maybe one or two that are for the worse, thus far, and mostly they're minor.


I think the character-based ones start coming in droves in the flashback volumes.

Kratos wrote:
I am interested, though: what makes the name change "lame"? I know White Base is traditional, but you gotta admit, Pegasus is a much less awkward and more standard warship name (and, if I recall correctly, is indeed the name of the ship in Tomino's novels...which this could be a nod to).


I know it's the White Base-class Pegasus in the novels, but the novels are an alternate-universe. So is this, I suppose, due to geographic rearrangement and the horde of other differences, but the ship is the ship is the ship. It's *MSG* fans' awkwardly, awesomely-named ship, and messing with that feels like they might as well have put in the (incredibly awkwardly named) G3, which I don't think they did.

Is it possible the Feds are just referring to it by class-name, since there may not be too many other Pegasi hanging around Jaburo?

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 Post Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:09 pm 
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harotype wrote:
I think the character-based ones start coming in droves in the flashback volumes.


Like, he partakes in character assassination? To who? It's true I haven't read through them yet, but nothing that I came across while casually browsing them seemed to indicate a gross mis-characterization of anybody. And his writing of the characters has been so bang-on up to this point that it's hard to believe that he suddenly changes them. One of the best things about Origin so far, even with all the changes he does, is how well it maintains the general feel and themes of the original series, while simultaneously streamlining and expanding on its events.

Either way, I get the feeling you're not too big a fan of Origin.

harotype wrote:
I know it's the White Base-class Pegasus in the novels, but the novels are an alternate-universe. So is this, I suppose, due to geographic rearrangement and the horde of other differences, but the ship is the ship is the ship. It's *MSG* fans' awkwardly, awesomely-named ship, and messing with that feels like they might as well have put in the (incredibly awkwardly named) G3, which I don't think they did.

Is it possible the Feds are just referring to it by class-name, since there may not be too many other Pegasi hanging around Jaburo?


A very, very slim one. The quotes themselves, and my translations, are thus:

Quote:
Gen. Gopp: ペガセス級戦艦のネームシップとして 『大反攻作戦』の一翼を担う -> "We would like to shoulder it with taking part in a certain large counter-offensive operation as the name ship for the Pegasus class of warships" [Deluxe ed. vol.4, pg. 260]


Quote:
Amuro's rank assignment document: 航空戦艦ペガセス特別高機動戦隊所属 准尉(特務曹長)ヲ 命ず。。。 -> "Appointed to the air battleship Pegasus special high mobility unit as a Warrant Officer (Special Duty Sergeant Major)..." [pg. 303]


Regarding Gopp's statement, Wikipedia's entry on the naming conventions surrounding ship classes is as follows:

Quote:
Ship classes are typically named in one of two ways; echoing the name of the lead ship, such as the Pennsylvania-class battleships, whose lead ship was the USS Pennsylvania (BB-38), or defining a theme by which vessels in the class are named, as in the Royal Navy's Tribal-class frigates, named after tribes of the world, such as HMS Mohawk (F125).


Pegasus isn't the theme of the class; not only is Pegasus a proper noun, as opposed to a species or category, the other named Pegasus-class ship (the Albatross) is just named after another significant flying creature in mythology/literature.

And the document practically confirms it. I suppose it's possible that it's supposed to be plural, and refers to the fact that the whole "Special high mobility unit" is made up entirely of Pegasus-class ships, but considering standard military naming conventions, it's unlikely. Of course, Yas could just not know such conventions, but the evidence does largely point towards a renaming.

It's a moot point, though; as you pointed out, the crew seems to refer to it as the White Base anyways, in lieu of its "offical" military title.

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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Kratos wrote:
Like, he partakes in character assassination? To who? It's true I haven't read through them yet, but nothing that I came across while casually browsing them seemed to indicate a gross mis-characterization of anybody. And his writing of the characters has been so bang-on up to this point that it's hard to believe that he suddenly changes them. One of the best things about Origin so far, even with all the changes he does, is how well it maintains the general feel and themes of the original series, while simultaneously streamlining and expanding on its events.


Not a "mis-characterization", perhaps, but very different interpretations than we've become accustomed to through the animation. Even just different interpretations of events, like Char and Sayla are
Spoiler: show
the mistress's children
or that they used to live
Spoiler: show
at Texas colony, where the real Char Aznable hailed from.


"Assassinations" would perhaps be reserved for Kycilia Zabi (I'm speaking mainly in the literal sense)... and Yas takes an overall far more negative view of the entire family. Or that he strengthens Char's characterization as a sociopath. Or that Kai's a delinquent who's been held back twice. Or that Amuro and Frau have only known each other for nine months. It just goes on and on.

Kratos wrote:
Either way, I get the feeling you're not too big a fan of Origin.

It's almost like he changes many things, but just so the end results conform with the veneer of the familiar character. Depending on how much you liked said original character, you may like the Origin character a lot less.

I have quite mixed feelings about it (and I know I'm not alone). Yay, it's (a lot) more MSG. No, overall I haven't seen it surpass the original.

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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:17 pm 
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So it's less of a change, and more of giving them a backstory that the fan may or may not agree with. I can see why that might bug some people. Either way, I think it says a lot about Yas that he can incorporate these visions of the characters' pasts and still have them make sense in the context of the characters' pre-established personalities.

As for whether or not it surpasses MSG, well, that's subjective, isn't it? Yas certainly thinks it does, which is probably what rubs fans the wrong way most. It's not so much that his changes are bad, or degrade the quality of the MSG story that he's trying to retell, it's that he's so damn arrogant about it all. As far as I'm concerned, though, the existence of these expanded elements/changes doesn't matter so long as the characters, themes, and "feel" of the series remain intact. And so far, they have. Giving Char, Sayla, Kai, Amuro and Fraw, etc. backstories that may not be 100% in line with what the previous fan assumptions were doesn't really matter if their characters are the same in the story proper, does it?

And hey, if it does? Then the Japanese attitude towards "canon" means that Origin and MSG simply coexist, like the relationship between the MSG series and movies, or between Zeta and A New Translation. I prefer Origin so far because I feel it that it's simply even better character-driven sci-fi storytelling than MSG was (which is saying a lot), but the best part is, there will always be room in Gundam "canon" for both.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:13 am 
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Kratos wrote:
Quote:
Gen. Gopp: ペガセス級戦艦のネームシップとして 『大反攻作戦』の一翼を担う -> "We would like to shoulder it with taking part in a certain large counter-offensive operation as the name ship for the Pegasus class of warships" [Deluxe ed. vol.4, pg. 260]


一翼を担う actually means 'play a [its, one's] part '. Nameship in this case means '絶対に1番艦', which denotes it's the first ship of it's kind, ergo it's not a change to the White Base itself. Try "As the nameship of the Pegasus-class battleships, you'll play a role in the major counteroffensive operation." as a translation. The Albatross is the 7th ship.

@harotype:

What's the matter? You didn't like the kids running into General Revil followed by him getting bonked on the head by Haro and then Frau flopping down on him? :P


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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:15 am 
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followed by Bright having an aneurysm, yes


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Deacon Blues wrote:
@harotype:

What's the matter? You didn't like the kids running into General Revil followed by him getting bonked on the head by Haro and then Frau flopping down on him? :P
ShadowCell wrote:
followed by Bright having an aneurysm, yes


ShadowCell only knows because I showed it to him.

And Frau says she doesn't want to be a soldier. No, that part was sort of an amusing consolidation (and explosion) of about three scenes in the show. It's the OTHER 99 times of using her for ostensible comic relief while saying she's his favorite that bugs me. Among other things...

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:35 pm 
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On top of the differences I must say the battle on Luna II was a bit strange. I didn't see them going that way with. I won't give anything away but Kai, Job John, Ryu, and Hayato did a great job with those "old" mobile suits. I'm just wondering though if Brights going to be that goofy in the anime?

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