Gelgoog Jager wrote:
There are other possibilities, such as the Federation actually trying to prevent the nukes from reaching Axis and thus launching an attack that required the other 4 Musakas to stay behind or them being sent back to protect Sweetwater. Either way we know that at least 3 Muskas survive as far as U.C. 0096.
That doesn't fit with what we know of EFSF deployments, however, which is that the Sides have garrisons, but Londo Bell is the only force not tied down to a single Side. And Londo Bell repeatedly complains that the rest of the EFSF won't support them, until they're surprised as they go in for the second attack at Axis that Side 2 & Side 5 are sending help, which dovetails neatly with the report given to Rewloola
's Captain Lyle, who's just as surprised the rest of the EFSF is supporting Londo Bell as Bright.
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Regarding Char, I would not actually try to defend someone who actually gave away the one technology, the psycho frame, which was the only advantage his forces actually had, which came to show he cared more for his duel with Amuro than for achieving Neo Zeon's goals. As for his MS piloting skills, in MSG it almost seemed that the better the MS he was given, the worse his skill became.
I agree completely. If this was a Char topic I'd tangent here, but it isn't.
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
And we do have a great example for a unit that had more pilots than MS, the Chimera Corps, which had 31 pilots for 24 MS. However in the case you mention we do have confirmed that a total of 10 MS launch from the 2 Musakas, which does seem to point out that those two pilots probably also ahd their own unit. Besides, I don't think Rezin will allow someone else to use her customized unit, which would basically leave 3 pilots for the only normal Geara Doga. At most this might be a case of the 50% extra MS you also mentioned.
Sure, I won't say that a Musaka
is incapable of carrying 6 MS; but I will argue that evidence of MS deployment in CCA indicates a standard capacity of 4. I'm not convinced that one can carry 6 internally & have two on the outside, however. I'd call four MS internally and two on the outside the "50% extra" and leave it at that.
As for the "10 MS from 2 cruisers"...this is at a time in the movie when there are all sorts of unexplained events, like Gyunei regenerating funnels & mysteriously acquiring MS teams, so I'm hesitant to say that 2 Jagd Dogas & 8 Geara Dogas came from only 2 Musaka
s. Time and space are play so fast & loose that I find it difficult to credit some of what it appears we see. Another example is that in all our Neo Zeon MS accounting, we're crediting Rewloola
with holding only a single mobile suit: Sazabi. This makes no sense whatsoever, but it's what the animation is suggesting.
I was unable to find an instance of 3 Geara Dogas being launched from the same ship catapult, which would leave us with 4 MS internally on each Musaka, even though the hangar shots involving Jagd Dogas aboard a Musaka
make the hangars look very spacious with more than enough room for 8-10 MS (much as Ra Cailum
's hangar seems far too large for the comparatively small number of MS inside).
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Regarding the size of Londo Bell's forces, beside the possible extra 50% MS capcity, we see the Ra Cailum leaving Londonion with 6 extra Jegans attached to its hull, while a Clop is seen leaving with at least two Jegans each with a sled. Taking all these factors into consideration, the possible upper limit could be 42 MS. If we also consider that some surviving Jegans from Luna II decide to accompany Londo Bell, 50 Jegans would actually be a possible number.
Again, we're running into different methods of accounting. When Argama, already carrying 3 Rick Dias & the Mk IIs, suddenly had to carry Mont Blanc
's GM IIs, these MS were not able to be carried internally, though they still more or less operated from the ship. The extra 50% capacity, then, was not necessarily "extra room inside the hangar". The animation is inconsistent on this part, however, as with so many things.
You seem to be double-dipping; holding +50% in the hangar, and an additional number outside the hull. That doesn't sit well with me.
I'd say that there's a difference between being able to hold 50% extra MS in the hangar just before launch, and the ability to do necessary maintenance & repair on 50% extra MS. In my scenario, the ship's normal capacity is the maximum it can practically hold on board internally and still do all the routine (and emergency) work to keep the MS operating in top condition. When adding 50% more, if you want to maintain anything inside the hangar, you need to have space to move equipment around, so you store excess MS outside. You can rotate which ones are out on the hull, but you can't maintain more than the "standard" capacity inside at once. You can bring the +50% inside right before launch, however, so that your force can be sent off all at once.
This would possibly explain why Ra Cailum
makes a practice of storing some seemingly-damage MS outside the hangar -- such as the Jegan Hathaway steals. We see some MS being worked on inside the ship, but Hathaway's Jegan looks fully functional, missing only a competent pilot. It would also explain why we see extra MS on the hull when Londo Bell leaves Londenium, but not when they're readying the two waves to attack Axis.
This also would remove these spurious ideas that Londo Bell took some MS from the Luna II survivors -- we see no evidence of any MS surviving the attack on Luna II. In fact, given their lack of battle damage, I'd say the two Salamis Kai
s accompanying the beat-up Clop
were not from the Luna II garrison at all. Side 1 forces responding to a distress call, perhaps? Either way, it's a blue-uniformed enlisted man who explains to Bright & Meran what happened to Minister Paraya, not a surviving officer from one of the undamaged SKs.
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Regarding the two extra MS leaving with Rezin, they could simply be two Jegans try to chase the Geara Dogas. Remember that almost at the end of the movie, we see two Jegans chasing six Geara Dogas that are heading back to the Rewloola, which gives us an example of a few Jegan pilots being reckless and pursuing a larger force.
Yes, they -- and all times we just see distant thruster trails -- could be
just about anything. This is why I said I'm leery of counting thruster trails alone for anything, like the number of MS accompanying Nu Gundam on the first attack against Axis. We know at least 10 Jegans accompanied Amuro, because we see two destroyed and then eight others come on-screen. We don't know that there were two flights of 14 MS, because all we see are two groups of 14 thruster trails. I consider this different from the shot of Kayra's 1st Wave, because 1) there all the thruster trails are on at once, and 2) some of them are close enough to show that the thruster trails are MS on sleds. Without that proximity, for all we know some of the 28 thruster trails preceding Amuro's 2nd wave are dummies.
It's largely the fact that 14 thruster trails disappear, and then 14 more come on, that makes me think this was Amuro's 2nd wave ditching their sleds. When Kayra's force ditches theirs, the sleds keep moving for awhile, thrusters on, and the Jegans then light off their own thrusters. Remember that it's a convention of animation that a spacecraft is always firing its thrusters to show movement, even though the thrusters don't actually need to be firing for the machine to move.
Black Knight wrote:
Yes, I must have missed them when I was counting. So the death toll of the Jegans increases to:
Londo Bell: 18 units
All froces: 31 units
For clarity, I'll list the Londo Bell forces I'm tracking destroyed:
2 Jegans destroyed anonymously (4:25) (since one pilot contacts Amuro, whom we see fighting Gyunei, I consider it possible
that Gyunei scored these kills, but there is absolutely no way to confirm or deny)
Axis 1st attack:
Rezin destroys 1 Jegan (1:13:24)
1 Jegan destroyed by ship (probably Rewloola
2 Jegans destroyed by Gyunei's G-Doga team (1:15:42)
Axis 2nd attack:
Quess destroys 2 Jegans (1:32:11)
Quess destroys 1 Jegan (1:32:16)
1 Jegan destroyed by Rewloola
5 Jegans destroyed by Char (1:43:32)
1 Jegan explodes from an unknown cause (1:45:08)
And that's my list of Londo Jegans which were (or possibly were) destroyed by the actions of Neo Zeon. I come up with 13 clearly due to enemy action, and one a mystery. I know you added 2 Jegans to Quess's tally, which I don't agree with, but that's the way things go.
I'm even more annoyed with Char as I consider that the 5th Luna operation used at least 8 Neo Zeon warships, one more than you're saying took part in the far more critical Axis operation. As the lynchpin of Char's plan, I argue that even a tactical idiot like Char generally is (Jaburo Drop '79, anyone?) knows to commit all the forces he can scrape together when the chips are finally down. And ~ 4 cruisers would just completely disappear from the movie if we don't place them as arriving as Cruiser 4's escorts.