Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ

Board index » Discussion » Anime and Manga




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:39 pm 
Offline
Creepy Bishonen
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:24 pm
Posts: 161
Location: Houston,TX
So as you all know (at least those who saw CCA) the Londo Bell task force was the only unit that engaged Char's Neo Zeon Fleet during the second Neo Zeon War. Recently I looked up Gundam wiki to see what Londo Bell was comprised of during that time. Apparently they were comprised of 3 Clop Class cruisers and 1 Ra Cailum Class crusier as well as 20 mobile suits when you include the Nu Gundam. After seeing this one thought popped into my mind, "This was all that stood between Char and him dropping Axis onto earth?"

Basically, my question is why was Londo Bell the only one fighting Char's Fleet?
Also, does anyone know what the Neo Zeon Fleet was comprised of?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:01 pm 
Offline
Hot-blooded Gattai
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:44 pm
Posts: 8045
Location: Detroit, MI
zetatype wrote:
Also, does anyone know what the Neo Zeon Fleet was comprised of?
IIRC, the Rewoola, 13 Musakas, ~100 Gera Dogas, and the 4 newtype machines.

_________________
The Gundam wiki

"Reality makes a crappy special effects crew." - Adam Savage


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:04 pm 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:25 pm
Posts: 1013
Location: Axis
All the info you are looking for comes with a small little booklet that came in the original printing of the CCA movie. According to the pamphlet this was what the Neo Zeon fleet was comprised of:

13 Musaka Class Ships
1 Rewloola Class Ship
82 Geara Doga Units
2 Jagd Dogas
Sazabi

The booklet also says that the Londo Bell consisted of 18 Jegans, the Re-GZ, and the Nu Gundam. That's 20 Mobile Suits right there which is very few Mobile Suits.

I'm pretty sure that the only reason Londo Bell was the only force capable of fighting against Char was because all of the other fleets were occupying colonies making sure no riots would start. IIRC it was stated during the movie that the Earth Federation was having a hard time keeping the populace under control since Char was going around.

I was ninja'd.

_________________
The proof of our might will forever be etched in your minds.

-- Haman Karn


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:42 pm 
Offline
Traitor Villain
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:12 pm
Posts: 6840
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Red Comet90 wrote:
The booklet also says that the Londo Bell consisted of 18 Jegans, the Re-GZ, and the Nu Gundam. That's 20 Mobile Suits right there which is very few Mobile Suits.


However, they are reinforced when they stop at Londenion. IIRC, they have extra Jegans on their hulls when they leave, and they certainly deploy more than 20 MS when they attack Axis. It isn't a huge increase (IIRC, they deploy around 30 MS), but it certainly had to help their situation.

_________________
I must betray Stalindog!!!

RPG TRINARY: Mash
Die Anti-brutale Kraft: mcred23 (Call me 'red', not 'mcred')


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:15 pm 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:25 pm
Posts: 1013
Location: Axis
mcred23 wrote:
Red Comet90 wrote:
The booklet also says that the Londo Bell consisted of 18 Jegans, the Re-GZ, and the Nu Gundam. That's 20 Mobile Suits right there which is very few Mobile Suits.


However, they are reinforced when they stop at Londenion. IIRC, they have extra Jegans on their hulls when they leave, and they certainly deploy more than 20 MS when they attack Axis. It isn't a huge increase (IIRC, they deploy around 30 MS), but it certainly had to help their situation.

I recall the MS on the hulls of the warships during the movie so I have a feeling you are right about that. The numbers don't really seem so skewed when you consider a few other factors now that I think about it.

There may have been 82 Geara Dogas at the beginning of the movie, but by the final battle its safe to assume that not all 82 Gear Dogas are functioning. Some should have been lost on the attack on Luna II and other battles that occurred throughout the movie. Also some may have been damaged and were in the middle of repair making them unfit for sortie.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Char had all 14 of his ships protecting the asteroid at the beginning movie. If so it would even out the numbers again against the Londo Bell units at the beginning, but he probably still had the upper hand by a few ships and MS.


_________________
The proof of our might will forever be etched in your minds.

-- Haman Karn


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:43 pm 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Posts: 1116
Wasn't the ship where Quess' father died also part of Londo Bell? It was mentioned in a discussion indicating that there were 4 Londo Bell units, where Bright's would be the first one and the Nahel argama the fourth one, and the one at Luna II being one of the remaining two.

If so, some of the surviving forces from Luna II might have also been from Londo Bell and joined the Ra Cailum when they ran into them after Neo Zeon stole the nukes, further increasing their numbers.

As for the Neo Zeon fleet, Char took the Rewloola and 3 Musakas to take over Axis. After Londo Bell begins their assault on Axis, two more Musakas arrive, including ship number 4 which is carrying the nukes and was later left docked on one of Axis ports, not participating in the later battles.

These would give Char a total of 4 Musakas along with the Rewloola for defending Axis. As for their MS complement, each Musaka can carry 6 MS acording to the Unciorn novel and the Rewloola seems to be able to carry twice as much. So other than the Sazabi and 2 Jagd Dogas, there could have carried as many as 39 Geara Dogas for the final battles 8including the MS capacity of the 4th Musaka). I should also note that no Geara Doga is destroyed on screen before the battles between Londo Bell and Neo Zeon at Axis.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:14 pm 
Offline
Mysterious Masked Dude
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:22 pm
Posts: 546
Location: Armoury One, L4.
As I recall, the word is that in UC 0096 Nahel Argama and its MS complement are referred to as the Londo Bell 4th Squadron; I took that to mean that Ra Cailum and her trio of Clop escorts (plus their MS) make up the 1st Squadron, with as-yet-unseen 2nd and 3rd Squadrons kicking around somewhere.

Now, whether there were multiple squadrons in '93 is another matter. The captain of Mr. Paraya's ship does refer to "our Londo Bell unit" in conversation, but I've never been too clear on whether that "our" identifies him as a member of the unit, or simply refers to the Federation Space Force as a whole. It's wonderfully ambiguous, in English at least; perhaps one of our Japanese speakers could clarify if it's just as unclear in that language?

Although, if memory serves, we only see Clop-class ships as part of Bright's Odds-Defying Wonder Taskforce during Char's Counterattack, so it could still be one of theirs. At any rate, I've always assumed that the additional MS taken aboard by Londo Bell are Luna II garrison survivors, rather than anything else.

_________________
"Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer.
A Wind Raging Through, a Destiny sidestory.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:31 pm 
Offline
Mysterious Masked Dude
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:20 am
Posts: 598
Char occupied Axis with only Rewoola and 2-3 Musakas, but like Londo Bell can be seen leaving Sweetwater with extra Geara Dogas strapped to the hull. This may have also taken place with Nanai's fleet, as we see at least 5 MS pilots on Nanai's flagship, though the MS capacity of a Musaka was only listed as 4 until Unicorn came out (it's Rezin, her 2 wingmen, Quess and Gyunei for those interested). But in recent years most ships have had their MS capacities increased, regardless of what we see in the animation.

However, Char is reinforced by Nanai's fleet before Londo Bell's second attack on Axis -- I think it's actually while the first attack is still on-going. Certainly Gyunei was in range to arrive before 1) Bright's nuclear missiles or 2) Kayra's Re-GZ could do much damage to Axis's engines. Although Quess and Gyunei clearly launched early, it wouldn't be impossible for other reinforcements to have arrived from Nanai's fleet before the warships were in range to provide direct support. But I see no reason to assume that less than the whole of Nanai's Luna II attack force eventually arrived at Axis; Neo-Zeon II was engaged in an all-or-nothing attack, so where else would those ships be but in the important fight?

Londo Bell leaves Londenium with the extra Jegans, and only later meets up with the survivors from Luna II (the beat-up Clop which had carried Minister Paraya and a couple of Salamis Kais, if memory serves). So it's very unlikely that the extra Jegans came from Luna II's survivors. More likely, Londenium was Londo Bell's headquarters, or else Bright drafted some of the local EFSF garrison. But since the colony had the ability to repair Ra Cailum's bow, I'd lean towards the colony being Londo Bell's base (or at least the squadron commanded by Bright).


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:49 pm 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:14 pm
Posts: 1226
I have an old thread of Mark's that runs through CCA's numbers; it points out that Londo Bell's ships seem to be double-loaded -- though their rated capacity is only 20 (three Clops with 4 MS each, and the Ra Cailum with 8 ), during the battle at Axis they deploy a total of 38 MS. These come in two waves -- the ReGZ and 24 Jegans first, followed by Nu and 12 more Jegans. The general rule of thumb is that mobile suit carriers can go half-again over their designed capacity in a pinch, but the numbers here suggest that the Clops are literally doubled up, with 8 MS apiece, leaving the Ra Cailum to carry an extra six. (3 x 8 + 14 = 38) This is, Mark points out, exactly how we see Clops being used in Victory, and we actually see a shot of the Ra Cailum with six machines strapped to its catapult decks, so that all works out fairly nicely.

_________________
Fighting evil so you don't have to!


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:42 pm 
Offline
Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend

Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:37 pm
Posts: 363
Seeing the numbers laid out like that.....it becomes clear that the majority of Neo Zeon pilots must've been amateurs (or the Londo Bell pilots were expert pilots) to not have been able to wipe out Londo Bell more easily.

Afterall, even with the above estimates, Londo Bell was outnumbered 2:1 in terms of mobile suits which is a serious handicap even when the Neo Zeon numbers would've been deployed across multiple battles. It's a surprise Londo Bell had so many at the end unless they were using mostly Luna II survivors at that point.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:05 am 
Offline
Hot-blooded Gattai
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:44 pm
Posts: 8045
Location: Detroit, MI
domino wrote:
Seeing the numbers laid out like that.....it becomes clear that the majority of Neo Zeon pilots must've been amateurs (or the Londo Bell pilots were expert pilots) to not have been able to wipe out Londo Bell more easily.

I'm betting on the former considering that in the simulation in the cockpit of a Jegan that uses battle data that even has just been obtained to determine how a Gera Doga fights, even Quess and Hathaway who had never piloted a military model MS before could both shoot down two Gera Dogas before being taken out themselves.

_________________
The Gundam wiki

"Reality makes a crappy special effects crew." - Adam Savage


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:28 am 
Offline
Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend

Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:37 pm
Posts: 363
Makes sense really.....Londo Bell was a taskforce put together specifically to stop another Neo Zeon War and Char's loyalists couldn't have possibly all been survivors from previous wars so were likely mostly previously untrained colonists who were willing to follow the Red Comet.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:23 am 
Offline
Traitor Villain
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:12 pm
Posts: 6840
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Don't forget that Londo Bell is said to include a number of former AEUG members, so it stands to reason that some of those pilots probably have a good deal of combat experience under their belts as well...

_________________
I must betray Stalindog!!!

RPG TRINARY: Mash
Die Anti-brutale Kraft: mcred23 (Call me 'red', not 'mcred')


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:50 pm 
Offline
Mecha Flunky
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:29 pm
Posts: 2
Superior numbers is not a guarantee of victory by any means.

A smaller, but better trained force with capable commanders is perfectly able of overcoming a superior foe.

Most of Neo-Zeon's pilots were probably young, disgruntled spacenoids who bought into Char's distorted ideals and philosophy and didn't have much combat experience.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:23 am 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:25 pm
Posts: 1013
Location: Axis
It would make sense that most of the pilots were inexperienced. Most of the pilots in ZZ Gundam were all very inexperienced from what I can recall. If Char picked up some of Haman's remnants (which I'm sure he did) then it would leave him with many green pilots.

IIRC wasn't there a reference somewhere that Illia Pazom was part of Char's Neo Zeon? I don't think she was a pilot though.

_________________
The proof of our might will forever be etched in your minds.

-- Haman Karn


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:02 am 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Posts: 1116
Black Knight wrote:
However, Char is reinforced by Nanai's fleet before Londo Bell's second attack on Axis -- I think it's actually while the first attack is still on-going. Certainly Gyunei was in range to arrive before 1) Bright's nuclear missiles or 2) Kayra's Re-GZ could do much damage to Axis's engines. Although Quess and Gyunei clearly launched early, it wouldn't be impossible for other reinforcements to have arrived from Nanai's fleet before the warships were in range to provide direct support. But I see no reason to assume that less than the whole of Nanai's Luna II attack force eventually arrived at Axis; Neo-Zeon II was engaged in an all-or-nothing attack, so where else would those ships be but in the important fight?


However it we do have elemnts to believe that not all of Char's forces were at Axis, the most important being the surviving Musakas.

First, at about 1:02:20, we can see only two Musakas leaving Luna II. These are shown several times before arriving at Axis and at all times there always seem to be only two ships.

At Axis we can confirm the destruction of 3 ships:
-At 1:36:40.
-At 1:41:30.
-At 1:42:10.
Also, one Musaka gets its bridge blown on screen, but is not seen being destroyed:
-At 1:40:30.

This accounts for 4 destroyed ships, leaving only one not seen damaged or destroyed on screen. Almost by the end of the battle Bright wants to use the Ra Cailum to try to stop Axis, but a crew member stops him telling him that there's still the Rewloola left to destroy, and indeed the only Neo Zeon ship seen in the remaining scenes is the Rewloola, implying that the rest of the Musakas participating in the battle were destroyed.

The most common version regarding Char's fleet is that it consisted on 13 Musakas and the Rewloola. Adding the 3 ships that Char took from Sweetwater and the two that come form Luna II, we have 5 that were most likely destroyed at Axis, which would leave 8 surviving ships.

Now, as you may know, in Gundam Unicorn the Zeon remanants use a lot of equipments from previous wars, especially ships. In Ep 2, during the briefing at the Nahel Argama about Palau, it is shown that the EF's intelligence identified 8 Musakas at Palau. This number matches precisely the amount of ships that by the above mentioned scenario would have survived. But now look at this image from Ep 3. These are three of those eight Musakas docked at Palau. Please note the different markings on each of these ships. On CCA the ships also have markings which were supposed to identify the ships, but due to many errors in the animation these are at many points not consistent.

Fortunately there's this lineart of the Musaka which includes a small table indicating what those markings meant. With it we can identify the Musakas docked at Palau and confirm that these are ships 1, 6 and 8, proving that they are indeed survivors form the previous war. As with their MS, these ships have received some modifications (or rather are the same ships, just slightly redesigned in the real world), and painted green, just like the Gaza type units at Palau, but they are most definitely the same ships seen in CCA.

Finally, I did confirm that ship 3 was carrying at least two Geara Dogas on its hull when leaving Sweetwater. If each Musaka did the same, each of these three ships that went along with the Rewloola to Axis could have carried 8 MS. The Rewloola itself seemed to only be towing the Alpha Azieru though. As for the ships that delivered the nukes, they didn't seem to be taking any extra units on their hulls, so let's assume those did only carry their 6 MS. In total, including the 3 newtype units, that would be a total of 1 MA and 48 MS, out of which there are 45 of the 82 Geara Dogas that aprticiapted in the conflict.

As to what were the other ships doing, we are not told, but at 1:27:00, the Rewloola is informed that what most likely seem to be Federation fleets are launching from Side 2, Side 5 and even Luna II. I suppose some of these inlcude the MS that help pushing Axis away. It's possible that the rest of the Musakas were sent to intercept and delay any incoming Federation Fleet, which would explain why no other ship actually reaches Axis. As for the odds of these 8 ships surviving such situation, it's not too far fetched considering that no Neo Zeon ship or MS is destroyed before the battles at Axis.

Red Comet90 wrote:
It would make sense that most of the pilots were inexperienced. Most of the pilots in ZZ Gundam were all very inexperienced from what I can recall. If Char picked up some of Haman's remnants (which I'm sure he did) then it would leave him with many green pilots.


The above mentioned situation would rather indicate a high level of skilled soldiers among Char's forces. Furthermore, from what the people who have read the Unicorn novels have told us so far, it seems that among the sleeves are two mayor factions: Zabi loyalists which would include the remnants of Haman's Neo Zeon and are most likely more loyal to Minerva Lao Zabi; and Char loyalists, who are msot likely survivors from the Second Neo Zeon War and would be more supportive of Full Frontal who is considered Char's second coming. This could very well indicate that the forces of the first group did not participate in the second conflict, an idea supported by the lack of MS and ships from the First Neo Zeon War.

Note: I apologize for any grammar or spelling errors, but I'm about to fall asleep here :?. If there's something that doesn't sound like making much sense, I'll correct it later on.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:19 pm 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:25 pm
Posts: 1013
Location: Axis
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
The above mentioned situation would rather indicate a high level of skilled soldiers among Char's forces. Furthermore, from what the people who have read the Unicorn novels have told us so far, it seems that among the sleeves are two mayor factions: Zabi loyalists which would include the remnants of Haman's Neo Zeon and are most likely more loyal to Minerva Lao Zabi; and Char loyalists, who are msot likely survivors from the Second Neo Zeon War and would be more supportive of Full Frontal who is considered Char's second coming. This could very well indicate that the forces of the first group did not participate in the second conflict, an idea supported by the lack of MS and ships from the First Neo Zeon War.

How would that indicate a high level of skilled soldiers though? From what I know the 1st Neo Zeon War didn't really have very many battles. The Federation pretty much gave Haman a warm welcome and let her do whatever she wanted. If any of these troops had experience it would be from the final battle at the end of ZZ as IIRC there is no big engagement against the Federation or the AEUG till the very end of the war.

Your mention of the factions within the Sleeves though seems to be more plausible since Haman's forces were mainly dedicated to "restoring the Zabi's to power" rather than moving people from earth to space.

_________________
The proof of our might will forever be etched in your minds.

-- Haman Karn


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:15 pm 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Posts: 1116
Red Comet90 wrote:
How would that indicate a high level of skilled soldiers though? From what I know the 1st Neo Zeon War didn't really have very many battles. The Federation pretty much gave Haman a warm welcome and let her do whatever she wanted. If any of these troops had experience it would be from the final battle at the end of ZZ as IIRC there is no big engagement against the Federation or the AEUG till the very end of the war.

Your mention of the factions within the Sleeves though seems to be more plausible since Haman's forces were mainly dedicated to "restoring the Zabi's to power" rather than moving people from earth to space.


What I intended to explain before was that the forces participating on the Second Neo Zeon War probably didn't include any of the Zabi loyalists that followed Haman during the First Neo Zeon War, which would explain why no MS or ships from that conflict was among Char's forces.

I believe that Char might have actually spent a really long time organizing his forces and properly training the his soldiers. when Amuro arrives from the moon and tries to engage Rezin, the NZ forces quickly retreat, something which amuses Amuro who says something along the lines of them being a well organzied group. Furthermore, as I have already mentioned, while the Jegans suffers on-screen casualties practically in almost every battle in the movie, no Geara Doga is destroyed before Londo Bell begins their assault on Axis (we do see a couple slightly damaged though). This should speak of a high level organization and piloting skill, which might not neccessarily be translated in a lot of previous combat experience in this particular case, but rather the result of Char's forces to have undergone thorough preparations.

I should note that we don't know exactly when Char began organizing his army. Some important dates are the takeover by Neo Zeon forces of the Sweetwater colony on December 22nd, U.C. 0092 and the Second Neo Zeon War itself which lasted from February 27th up to March 12th. But as for what may have caused Char to start his movement, the main suspects seem to be the end of the First Neo Zeon War on Janaury 16th, U.C. 0089, the Federation government's tightening of its economic sanctions against colonies that support spacenoid movements on August 25th, or him starting his own anti-Federation movement on early U.C. 0090 just like the EGUM and NSP group which began their activities at around that time.

In either of those scenarios, Char forces would have almost 3 years to make their preparations and properly train their pilots.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:35 am 
Offline
Mysterious Masked Dude
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:20 am
Posts: 598
I don't think there's enough information to conclude whether or not any of Char's followers were part of Haman's faction of "Zabi Loyalists." Char himself was quite popular with that faction, until he blew up at Haman as a member of the AEUG. His absence in the following Rock Zeek War might easily have been seen by survivors as part of his personal differences with Haman, but, hey, he also didn't fight against them, so it's all good...

As for the quality of Char's forces...I'm far from convinced. While their surprise attacks against Luna II and Axis went off without a hitch, their performance against Londo Bell is not nearly as good.

Take Rezin's attack on the Londo Bell fleet. Rezin openly criticizes the plan, ignores it, and gets the closest thing to a success through her actions -- seeming to get a lucky hit on Ra Cailum's bow missile magazine, blowing off the front portion of the ship. No big deal, because the ship's easily repaired in time for the next phase of operations.

Amuro's "They're well organized. They knew exactly when to retreat" crack is delivered right after that same plan-flaunter Rezin orders the withdrawal. So Rezin clearly knows what she's doing, but it seems whoever planned the operation did not, since the plan was to keep the MS at a distance and, it seems, just concentrate on annoying Londo Bell. Real good use of 3+ Musaka cruisers and 12-14 MS. No MS on either side appear to be destroyed, so it was evidently a pretty half-hearted attack other than Rezin's charge in to close range of Ra Cailum.

Otherwise, Neo Zeon's ships are constantly getting ambushed by Londo Bell (this happens twice to Rewloola and to what looks like Cruiser 5.

And speaking of cruisers....yes, their markings are all wonky. It appears Cruisers 1, 2 and 3 accompany Rewloola[/i] to Axis, but there's a Cruiser 3 next to Cruiser 5 in Nanai's Luna II fleet. Cruiser 4 is, fortunately, spotted in the mix, but there's a shot of three cruisers marked Cruiser 2. Not including the one that went with Char to Axis. That shot also has the largest number of Musakas firing in one scene, 7.

Between that max number of 7 and the marking chart that only goes up to Cruiser 10, I find myself wondering if Char's Neo-Zeon actually only had 10 Musaka cruisers. There's a pan shot of the fleet after Fifth Luna, showing 7 Musakas and Rewloola; later, Rezin's trio of cruisers attacks the Londo Bell fleet. They could be a group detached from the 5th Luna fleet, or a separate force. We see two Cruiser 3s in the background as Rezin launches, showing that #3 is the second most popular marking for a Musaka, behind Cruiser 2. The one time we see a cruiser marked with something higher than 5, it's an X, which could have been intended to be Cruiser 10 (and is much easier to recognize than the official marking for Cruiser 10), but who knows.

Just after Char's group attacks Axis, we see two Musaka leaving Luna II, which Gelgoog Jager proposes as the only reinforcements for Char's group (other than the late-arriving Cruiser 4 with the nukes which doesn't participate in the fighting), and postulates that the remaining ships (4 or 7, depending on how many Musakas the group had) out trying to delay EFSF reinforcements. Unfortunately for this idea, at about 1:28:00 into the film, Rewloola's Captain Lyle is given observation photos from his group at Axis, which we're told clearly show Cruiser 4, but also a lot of other ships from the EFSF, heading in from Side 2 and Side 5. Not only does Lyle not say "What are those other ships doing, why can't they hold them back?" but one might think that if part of the Neo-Zeon fleet were out there to keep tabs on other EFSF fleets, he'd be told about their movements by something other than his own observation team. If Char's Zeeks were really a well-organized & well-trained force, anyway.

Now, about those reinforcements for Char from Luna II. While right before the second battle around Axis begins Bright is still saying "We have to do this before the enemy gets reinforcements from Luna II!" at least two Musakas from Nanai's group have already arrived by that time, since they (and 10 mobile suits, the two Jagds and 8 Geara Dogas under Rezin) participate in defending Axis in the first attack. I doubt Bright would be worried about just Cruiser 4 (which was less than 30 minutes out at that time, and arrives early in the second battle).

So here's my assessment of Nanai's group attacking Luna II:

The battle at Luna II is shorter than Nanai & her fleet commander expect (as seen by his "We won before having to go to the battle bridge!" comment). Because of this, Nanai & one other cruiser leave Luna II while the rest of the fleet is still breaking into the nuclear stockpile, and head directly to Axis at high speed. The remaining ships, meanwhile, protect Cruiser 4 as it's being loaded with nuclear weapons.

Because of her rapid move away from Luna II, Nanai's two cruisers are able to get to Axis before the first battle is over, even though Amuro & Bright were certain that they could beat Neo Zeon forces to Axis if Londo Bell was starting at Londenium and Neo Zeon at Luna II -- either Londo Bell delayed their launch for some reason (more MS? final repairs to Ra Cailum?) or else the Musakas are faster than Bright thinks.

Meanwhile, the rest of the Luna II attack fleet, having finally loaded up Cruiser 4, proceeds to Axis. Because Cruiser 4 is carrying the goods, Char, Nanai & Captain Lyle are much more concerned about it than the rest of the fleet, and all the references like "When will Cruiser 4 get here?" really mean "When will Cruiser 4 and the other ships get here?".

In the first battle around Axis, on-screen damage to each force is pretty minimal. Kayra's force may have gotten two Geara Doga kills by ramming sleds into them, but Kayra herself definitely destroys one Doga. Rezin kills a Jegan. A Jegan is shot down by Rewloola, and two more destroyed by Gyunei's force when he attempts to ambush Amuro. Oh, and Gyunei shoots down a Geara Doga while hunting Nu Gundam, because he has trouble with enemy identification. 4 Jegans destroyed, Re-GZ disabled & pilot murdered vs 2-4 Geara Dogas destroyed and shots landed on Rewloola (not for the last time; good armor on that ship).

The second battle is much more one-sided, except for the intervention of aces. Char shooting down 5 Jegans in about 3 seconds, for instance (and with only two shots). That seemed a bit gratuitous, but whatever. Quess accounts for three Jegans, too, and another is shot down by Rewloola. So on-screen Londo Bell losses at Axis are 8 Jegans lost to Newtype killing machines, 2 lost to ships, 2 killed via Macross Missile Massacre, and one shot down by Rezin for a total of 13 Jegans destroyed & 1 Re-GZ disabled by Neo Zeon forces (the latter of course is later destroyed by a spoiled brat). 2 Clop cruisers are also sunk.

In the same fight, on-screen, Neo Zeon looses 3 G-Dogas to Amuro, along with a J-Doga and Sazabi; Kayra gets 1 G-Doga, as does Gyunei. 2 regular G-Dogas and Rezin are shot down by ships, and it appears the supposedly "well trained' G-Doga pilot who crashes into an asteroid is also hit by a ship, while one Jegan shoots down a G-Doga, and Hathaway kills one, for a total of 11 Geara Dogas destroyed along with one Jagd Doga and Alpha-Azieru. Oh, and 1 cruiser is nuked (one of the many Cruiser 2s), another is caught in Cruiser 4's nuclear fireball, Cruiser 5 seems to have been destroyed by a Jegan; its bridge is definitely destroyed, and the cruiser is never seen again. So, at least 3 cruisers destroyed and a fourth possible.

And these are just the on-screen kills. Since at least six Musaka cruisers were seen headed to Axis at different times (the three with Rewloola, 2 with Nanai, and Cruiser 4) the fact that none are later seen with Rewloola certainly suggests all six were destroyed, meaning at least two were destroyed off-screen. If only five or six Musakas were actually involved in the fight at Axis, then while Londo Bell had ~36 mobile suits (I count 25 Jegans with Kayra, 10 with Amuro for 37 total), Neo Zeon would have had 28 (4 MS on 2 ships, 6 MS on 3 ships plus Sazabi & Gyunei's Jagd Doga) to 44 (6 MS on 3 ships, 8 MS on 3 ships, plus Sazabi & Jagd Doga), and one MA either way.

The lower range assumes the three cruisers that accompanied Rewloola to Axis had 4 MS internally and 2 carried outside, while Rewloola carried only Sazabi & Alpha. Nanai's two ships brought only 8 Geara Dogas and Gyunei's Jagd (which is all they're implied having on-screen). It also assumes Cruiser 4 arrived alone (which would not be smart for a "well trained and well organized" force) and without any MS.

The upper limit assumes a base capacity of 6 for the Musaka, meaning the three cruisers with Char brought 8 apeice to the fight, while Nanai's group reinforced with a further 12 G-Dogas and Gyunei's Jagd, and half a dozen more G-Dogas from Cruiser 4.

On both sides, ships were far more effective at shooting down MS than in any previous series, with 36% of on-screen Geara Doga losses coming to ships, while 23% of Londo Bell's on-screen losses were to ships, with the same percentage lost to ships at Luna II (3 of 13 on-screen kills again; of the others, 8 were killed by Gyunei, 2 by Rezin).

So, my conclusion from a detailed look at CCA is that Neo Zeon's forces at the time were about average in competence, and benefited greatly from having good equipment (which Haman's forces generally lacked, particularly in the initial stages of the Rock Zeek War). The major black mark on the Neo Zeon Deux's performance is the high percentage of MS destroyed by ships, nearly three times that of either Londo Bell or the Luna II garrison.

If the entire Neo Zeon fleet was at Axis by the end (as only makes sense), then the performance is worse. While even on-screen, there are a lot more Londo Bell forces seen still alive at the end than Neo Zeon forces. I counted 1 G-Doga retreating in the direction of Rewloola at about 1:50:20 (when the anonymous Jegan potshots the equally anonymous G-Doga), and three others have a Newtype Change of Heart and help the EFSF crew try to push Axis back into orbit (of course, they were pushing from the wrong direction like everyone else, but Newtype Magic Solves All).


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:18 am 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Posts: 1116
I have tried to make a quick recount of the destroyed Geara Dogas and Jegans. The list shows a number and the letter K indicating a kill and a D for a damaged unit. I have also included some notes. First the list including only Neo Zeon and Londo Bell units:

Luna V
Jegan:
-2K after Luna 5th engines are activated
Geara Doga:
-1D after Char heads to Luna 5th

Diversion
Jegan:
-2D by Rezin
Geara Doga:
-1D (only shield destroyed) Kayra
Notes:
12 Geara Dogas are confirmed reaching Londo Bell's fleet, including Rezin's unit.
10 Jegans are confirmed intercepting the Geara Dogas

Axis first attack
Jegan:
-1K Rezin
-1K Rewloola
Geara Doga:
-2K Sleds
-1K Jegans
-2K Amuro
-1K Gyunei
-1K Ra Cailum (Rezin shot down by Chan using the Psycho Frame)
Notes:
18 Geara Dogas launch with Char
25+ Jegans (2 sleds seen carrying 2 Jegans, could be more cases) launch with Kayra, they are the first wave.
8 Geara Dogas reinforcements from Nanai's group
27 Jegans and Amuro are the second wave (Gyunei sees from away 14 lights, these begin dissapearing and 14 more lights eventually appear, mainly from behind the first lights, indicating even more units).
I don't know how to explain how all these were transported. Odd enough, when they begin firing missiles at Axis and before the MS launch, we can see the ships and there's no MS or SFS in sight, when earlier MS were seen straped to the hulls.

Axis second attack
Jegan:
-5K Quess (13 try to break through her and we can confirm that 8 pass her)
-5K Char
-1K Rewloola
-1K Geara Dogas
Geara Doga:
-1K Amuro
-1D Amuro
-1K Hathaway
-1K Clop
-1K Ra Cailum
-1K Jegans
-1D Jegans
-1D Axis
Notes:
-10 pilots confirmed including Amuro at Ra Cailums briefing, indicating at least 10 surviving MS on board the Ra Cailum.
-Cruiser 4 seems to arrive alone right after Chan leaves the ship in the Re-GZ.
-6 Geara Dogas heading for the Rewloola, 1 destroyed on its way.
-2 Jegans seen pursuing them and destroying 1 (mentioned above)
-3 Jegans surviving reach the Ra Cailum + Hatahway's unit.
-4 Geara Dogas seen helping push Axis, 1 suffers engine failure (1D Axis), 5 are pushed away from Axis.
-I did not count the Federation MS that arrive to push Axis.

Totals
Jegan (Londo Bell):
-16 on-screen kills
-52 units participating in the final battle (units from the two waves).
-At least 4 survive (Hathaway's unit and 3 more reach the Ra Cailum). 2 more are seen pursuing 6 Geara Dogas that retreat to the Rewloola. Adding this up we could consider that 6 Jegans survive out of 52.
Geara Doga:
-12 on-screen kills
-5 last seen retreating to the Rewloola. We could consider these as the only survivors since it's unlikely that the Rewloola could retrieve the wants that push Axis.
-6 more help push Axis, but 1 suffers engine failure, unconfirmed destruction.

As for units that might not belong to Londo Bell:

Luna II
Jegan:
-3K Musakas
-2K Rezin
-8K Gyunei
Notes:
-7 real Musakas confirmed, firing at Luna II
-16 Geara Dogas confirmed deployed along with the Jagd Dogas

If we add these figures to Londo Bells:

Jegan (All forces):
-29 on-screen kills

Regarding the Musakas, Black Knight's theory of only 10 Musakas might actually be right. Even the scene where about 14 Musakas are seen could simply be showing the dummies along with all Musakas, including the 3 that stay behind which are already outside Sweetwater when the Rewloola launches.

However, regarding the Musakas battling at Axis, I was only able to confirm that the 4th ship indeed arrives after Nanai's first group consisting on 2 Musakas had already arrived at Axis, thus confirming 6 Musakas at Axis, including ship 4. Either way, we know that 3 Musakas survive: ships 1, 6 and 8, which end up joining the Sleeves.

Regarding the Musakas MS capacity, when Rezin performs the diversion after the fall of Luna 5th, we can confirm 12 Geara Dogas assaulting Londo Bell, pointing towards a 4 MS capacity. But when Gyunei argues with Rezin, we can see that there's actually 3 more pilots when Quess is using the hook to pull herself towards the wall. This does seem to indicate that the ship can hold 6 MS. When Nanai's two Musakas support Char, we can indeed see that other than the 2 Jagd Dogas, 8 Geara Dogas launch. In this case maybe the standard complement is indeed 4 MS, but Nanai decided to bring Gyunei and Quess as additional forces (which would still fit in the 50% extra MS capacity rule).

Also, at Axis Char first launches along with 18 Geara Dogas. However his forces arrived on the Rewloola and 3 Musakas and we can confirm that at least one Musaka is towing 2 Geara Dogas. If the ships were carrying their max capacity and each Musakas was towing extra MS (something which is not seen), they could carry up to 36 MS. Adding the MS of Nanai's group, we would have 46 MS.

If ship 4 was also carrying some MS, we could be potentially talking of about 52 MS (same as the number of Londo Bell's Jegans and almost 50 of them being Geara Dogas) on the high end. On the low end, we could consider the 19 MS launching from Axis as the entire MS complement of the 4 ships. Adding Nanai forces, we would have 29 MS, and then consider that ship 4 didn't bring any extra MS due to its hangar space being used for carrying the nukes.

Finally, I just want to emphasize that the only reason for which Rezin seems to have been shot down is because Chan Psycho Frame seemd to have helped her. Rezin even says something like, "what is this power?". Also, as an interesting side note, Chan's Psycho Frame is the only thing that actually generates a "newtype barrier" in the movie, defending her on the Re-GZ from Quess' attack.


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » Discussion » Anime and Manga


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: