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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:51 am 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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Okay, so listening again to the Gundam Round-Up on MSG, and upon recently in the process of rereading the novel and just done rereading the post from Mark Simmons/Chris of MAHQ over the original 52 episode outline of MSG, there is one other version that the same post does reference that I don't think anyone, neither on Gundamn @ MAHQ or even here (to my knowledge), has ever brought up: the original series proposal.

The proposal represents the various ideas this one series had throughout its development and actual execution that were, to some degree, used in the later series such as Zeta and CCA; but I want to know the full proposal.

What we know so far is this:
- the original names were, at one point, Gunboy (for Gundam) and others included the word Freedom as part of the name (ex: Freedom Wing (Core Fighter) and Freedom Fortress (White Base)).

- Amuro was to die halfway through the show (if this was going to be 52 episodes as the outline, then Amuro probably wouldve died around episode 26); Char joins the White Base, along with a Char-custom RX-78 Gundam (which has been seen in various games and even a Master Grade model kit), only for the White Base to fight him after he takes control of the Principality of Zeon.

- The RX-78 Gundam was suppose to have a very real, uniform in a sense, color scheme, even though I've heard two stories on what that color scheme was, though both have the same ending: both seen as merchandise. One story was that the RX-78 was suppose to be all white (which explains the repeated dialogue of the Gundam as "the white suit" literally), which in the end was used in-canon universe as the RX-78 Rollout colors, and is even the colors for the RX-78 in the novels. And the other story was that the original color scheme was gray, which became the RX-78-3 Gundam G3.

But what else is there? I know there must be more, and I want to see what of those ideas would eventually be used in Zeta, CCA, and even the famous MSG novels (my fav version of MSG). But in the end; what was the original proposal to Mobile Suit Gundam?

P.S. is there even an outline of that as well?


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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:12 am 
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There's not an outline of this "original proposal" because it's a steaming load of BS. So far as I know, the 52-episode TV run is the original.

All that stuff about Char whacking Amuro and joining up with a red Gundam is a piece of baseless fiction that has been spread around the cancer like a virus thanks to the total lack of verification on several wikis.

The bit about "Gunboy" appears to be true, though. I've also heard the Gundam actually was mean to have a more militaristic color scheme before the sponsors decided it wasn't "toyetic" enough to sell models.

You have to be careful when dealing with Gundam trivia you find on the Web. Most of it is stuff that someone has made up because he was bored.

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:39 am 
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Imperial wrote:
The bit about "Gunboy" appears to be true, though. I've also heard the Gundam actually was mean to have a more militaristic color scheme before the sponsors decided it wasn't "toyetic" enough to sell models.


Yeah, those are the only two bits that have some basis of truth to them. At some point early in its development, it was called Gunboy (Although all the Freedom stuff has never been confirmed AFAIK, as it constantly goes back to Wiki), and the bit about Tomino wanting to be the original Gundam to be all white has been well known for many years.

And the rest? It sounds like someone took a bunch of things from various video games (Char's Gundam), and perhaps proposals for other shows (The Amuro dying thing made me think of one of the supposed original plots for SEED, where Kira died and Athrun took his place, but that might have just been Fukuda lying on the spot during an intewview as he is known to do :roll:) and applied them to MSG. So yes, a load of BS it is. :P

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:49 pm 
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You might also want to check the setting notes at Mark's site.


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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:28 pm 
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There was a completed Gunboy design. Most of the toys from Clover are based on this. There's some more info on ToyboxDX's Clover file.


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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Actually, in the Mobile Suit Gundam 記録全集 books, there is an ORIGINAL DESIGN section that illustrates what the Gundam, Guncannon, Guntank, Zaku, Musai, White Base, etc were all supposed to look like at one point.

Image Here

Though I will admit that I like the design of the White Base (christened 'Freedom Fortress') a lot better in it's third incarnation.

Though I'm still trying to find info on the mysterious characters "Gerber" & "Gundry" that are pictured...


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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:05 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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Oh really! Wow, and I had thought all that was true because that seems like something Tomino would do back in the day as this show was different for the time.

Well, here's the thing: I love the novels (really love them), and there are drastic differences in those novels compared to the anime. Why is that, really? Is it filled with original ideas deleted from the show (with some exceptions, such as Kusko Al) or what? BTW, how would you classify the novels compared to the anime; because it seems to me terms like "alternate version" and "novel version" don't seem to fit.

P.S. A bit off topic, but within the same lines: because the MSG novels are drastically different from the anime; is that the same with the novels to Zeta, Wing, etc?


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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:41 pm 
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Quote:
P.S. A bit off topic, but within the same lines: because the MSG novels are drastically different from the anime; is that the same with the novels to Zeta, Wing, etc?


Nope. I haven't read them, since I don't know Japanese, but from what's been said of them by people like Mark and others who have read them, they are usually close to the animated works. Some do have differences (Cue the two versions of CCA out there), but nothing that seems to have the radical changes seen in Tomino's MSG novels.

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Deacon Blues wrote:
Though I'm still trying to find info on the mysterious characters "Gerber" & "Gundry" that are pictured...


Obviously, Gerber supplies White Base with delicious baby food. :D

Turn-A Binker wrote:
P.S. A bit off topic, but within the same lines: because the MSG novels are drastically different from the anime; is that the same with the novels to Zeta, Wing, etc?


I can tell you that in regards to Wing, the answer is "no". The only real change is the ending, where we get to see the contents of Heero's letter to Relena, which is him saying goodbye and that he's going to try to find a new purpose "on that red planet". She rushes to the Mars terraformation project's shuttle site just to see the five boys boarding the plane, at which point we get the classic letter-rip. The whole thing closes out by saying where each of the seven Gundams (Wing, the upgrades, and Epyon) are. Notably, Frozen Teardrop seems to play off this a little, as Epyon is said to be at the bottom of the ocean, and in FT the original Epyon is recovered and remodeled.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:33 am 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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Quote:
There's not an outline of this "original proposal" because it's a steaming load of BS. So far as I know, the 52-episode TV run is the original.


Sorry to go back to this, but in regards to this comment, how do you explain this post:

Quote:
Anyway, since these books were compiled by Sunrise, they feature all kinds of cool production info and trivia. The first book contains a neatly typed version of Tomino's original series proposal, but the real dirt is in the fifth volume, which gives you Tomino's outline of the originally-planned 52-episode storyline.


Source: http://gundam.aeug.org/archives/1999/01/1156.html

In regards to the replies/answers toward other novels; I'm a bit surprised because I would've thought Tomino would've used the novels to present "his" preferred takes on the Gundam series. It still makes me wonder why MSG is so drastic (in a good way) in the first place.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:10 am 
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Turn-A Binker wrote:
In regards to the replies/answers toward other novels; I'm a bit surprised because I would've thought Tomino would've used the novels to present "his" preferred takes on the Gundam series. It still makes me wonder why MSG is so drastic (in a good way) in the first place.

I would interpret his novels as a way for Tomino to present something which would make him more money.

Certainly, he could have used them as a means to tell the story he wanted the various animated works he directed to tell. But I don't think that's what we ended up with.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:37 am 
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I think it's a difference of expectations and understandings, Turn-A Binker.

You seem to be looking at this proposal as a radically new draft of the story in the same vein of the 52-episode summary vs. the novels vs. what we eventually got. When I read Mark's blurb, I see what was likely just a general pitch about the gist of Gundam to interest sponsors.

If there was anything of substance to this proposal beyond "giant robots in space!", Mark probably wouldn't have hoarded the information. He's good about digging up these sorts of things and sharing his findings. If Mark doesn't have anything more to say about the proposal, I assume it's of little importance.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:51 am 
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The series proposal is just these setting notes. There's info on some even earlier versions of the story in some other books, which are kind of interesting, but they're absolutely nothing like the version in Tomino's novels.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:43 am 
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Yeah, it looks like you're right.

I think it had something to do with how drastically different the novels were to the anime, that until it was proven to be false here, the Amuro first half/Char second half idea from the wikis was something I saw to be linked to why the novels were different.

I don't really think it was about money; after all this talk, I believe the novels are a drastic reinterpretation of MSG based on both the orginal vision of the anime, and the ideas that were deleted when it was cancelled. That seems to make more sense, especially if you had to explain why to someone.

There is something else though; I know Tomino quotes that are online can be deceiving at times, but one that is related to the novels was the one where he said "if I had know there were going to be sequels, I wouldn't have killed off Amuro." It looks like Amuro was not going to die in anyway in the anime versions, just the novel. If that quote is true, and the novles to Zeta and CCA (didn't ask about ZZ though) were just novel versions of the anime, nothing more; it makes me wonder if Tomino might've came up with a novel series with a drastic parallel version of the animes, but couldn't because of how everything turned out in the end. This is just my fan speculation, and if it turns out to be nothing, then I'll just call it a day on this.

Quote:
I can tell you that in regards to Wing, the answer is "no". The only real change is the ending, where we get to see the contents of Heero's letter to Relena, which is him saying goodbye and that he's going to try to find a new purpose "on that red planet". She rushes to the Mars terraformation project's shuttle site just to see the five boys boarding the plane, at which point we get the classic letter-rip. The whole thing closes out by saying where each of the seven Gundams (Wing, the upgrades, and Epyon) are. Notably, Frozen Teardrop seems to play off this a little, as Epyon is said to be at the bottom of the ocean, and in FT the original Epyon is recovered and remodeled.


Going to Mars? You mean like in the manga, too? Are those similar toward one another? BTW, if you remember, where do the seven Gundams go at the end of the Wing novels?


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:11 am 
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Turn-A Binker wrote:
Going to Mars? You mean like in the manga, too? Are those similar toward one another? BTW, if you remember, where do the seven Gundams go at the end of the Wing novels?


Yeah, the manga ending is the same kind of thing (the biggest change being that the manga removes the birthday present and letter bit entirely). Of course the rest of the manga follow the anime ending, which creates some minor plot holes, something author Koichi Tokita acknowledged in the yonkoma for "Battlefield of Pacifists" where someone asks him "But didn't the manga end with the boys going to Mars?" and he hastily tries to change the subject.

As for the location of the Gundams, I'm afraid I don't remember them all off hand. The only one I know for sure is Epyon being at the bottom of the sea; I think the ruined Wing was left in space, while the other five are hidden away in storage.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:29 am 
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There is a writeup on Gunvoy which includes the character designs in an old Gundam Ace issue.(I think it was issue 1 or 2)

Apparently, it's not actually Gunboy, but Gunvoy, from the word Convoy. At some point, they were using the name Freedom Fighter too. The MS were also not supposed to be robots, but powered suits like in Starship Troopers. This is most evident if you compare Guncannon's design to a Starcraft or Warhammer Marine.

Off the top of my head, Amuro's name was originally Akira Hongou. Every other character had a Japanese name, even Ryu.

Unfortunately, my copy of Gundam Ace is not somewhere I can dig it up easily.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:03 pm 
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I can't find the "covoy" explanation in the first couple of issues of Gundam Ace, although that doesn't necessarily mean it's not true. But the "Era of Gundam" feature in the second issue shows some early character designs with preliminary names, ages, and ethnic origins:

Amuro Ray -> 本郷東 (Azuma Hongo, 15)
Bright Noa -> 英進太郎 (Shintaro Hanabusa, 18, German)
Mirai Yashima -> 木樽未来 (Mirai Kitaru, 19, Japanese)
Hayato Kobayashi -> 芙和雷三 (Raizo Fuwa, 15, Japanese)
Ryu Jose -> 鬼堂丸明 (19, Indio)
Kai Shiden -> 水田竜 (Ryu Mizuta, 18, Slavic)
Unknown -> 八丈志麻 (Shima Hachijo, 16, "Yankee")
Gihren Zabi -> ゲルベル (Gerber, 28, alien)

At this point, the story was going to take place on the faraway colony planet of "New Earth," and the enemy Zeon Empire were invading aliens. So Tomino's later "Ideon" is probably a pretty good indication of the original story plan.

According to the article in Gundam Ace, they're using the "Gundam Archive" book as a reference source, so I checked that as well. Gundam Archive indicates that at this point (mid-1978) they'd already settled on the working title "Gunboy" (or possibly "Gunvoy"). The White Base was going by the name "Freedom Fortress," and came with support vehicles like the "Freedom Wing" and "Freedom Cruiser".

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:19 am 
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Thanks for the details Mark. Ryu's name was Akira Kidomaru. Got his name mixed up with Amuro.

Apologies about the Convoy-Gunvoy explanation not being in Gundam Ace. I remembered reading it somewhere but maybe it wasn't in Gundam Ace.

The Gunvoy explanation is also on Wikipedia in Japanese mode(amongst other things about the early ideas), but that has to be taken with a grain of salt.


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:19 am 
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Jeez...Gunvoy and not Gunboy? Or was it both? I really didn't know any of this stuff. I really want this info to be out there, including wikis because those need to be fixed.

Okay, I have this very direct question I need to ask, and I hope you guys have the answer(s) because no matter how much I try, I can't find any myself. The Mobile Suit Gundam novels; Awakening, Escalation, and Confrontation. They are very different from the anime, and they are presented in a very real world way that when it comes to the other novels on the other shows, as pointed by others here including AmuroNT1, the other novels don't do this and are more like adaptations that either expand, condense, but overall add depth to the overall plot and characters; overall making the MSG novles more unique because they're the only ones to be what they are and the others, for the most part more or less, aren't. My question, from all of that, is this: why?

This has been bugging me, and was one of the reasons why this topic was made. I assumed, because it would make alot of sense, that the novels were based on the original conceptual take on the show before sponsors forced several changes and recreated the series into what it eventually became. But after the replies here, the original ideas weren't like the novels either. So why? Also, I know "Tomino said this" is most likely wrong (proven on Gundamn) but I recall reading somewhere that he said that if he know there would be more Gundam animes, he wouldn't have killed Amuro. Is that right? Does that mean anything? Could the novels been a planned to be a alternative/parallel series to the anime versions? That would explain why the other novels are not like the MSG ones. I
just cannot accept the answer that the MSG novels are different "because they are", nothing more. There has to be a concrete reason.

Why?


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:00 am 
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Why does there have to be a bigger reason?

I think the reason is because Tomino needed the money after his job was cut short by a month, but I'm a cynical bastard with low expectations of arrogant directors & "artistic" interpretations.

Maybe the original proposal was what Tomino hoped sponsors would sign on to, MSG is what they actually demanded/agreed to, and the MSG novels are the story Tomino actually wanted to tell, away from corporate meddling? This idea would have Tomino compromising his ideas from the very start (with the original setting notes/original proposal), aligning them to what he thought sponsors would go for rather than approaching them with his concept (the novels) and hoping they'd agree.

But I don't really see a need for there to be some "bigger reason" for the differences, particularly given the Japanese penchant for non-unified continuity where a bunch of alternates can coexist without some being thrown out (like, you know, UC Gundam's continuity....).


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