Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ

Board index » Discussion » Anime and Manga




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:54 am 
Offline
Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 am
Posts: 438
Quote:
What about the Federation "not accepting" Zeon's independence? They essentially ignored the Side, just like the Federation ignores all problems in space whenever it can (and sometimes when it can't). That doesn't change the fact that Zeon declared independence and governed itself independently, or that the Federation appeared to be completely content with this situation, or at least unwilling to act in any forceful way to change it. While sourcebooks attempt to justify Zeon's War of Aggression with claims of economic sanctions from the Federation, there's nothing on Earth which can't be found in space, and everything in space is more economical to move to a colony than it is to ship it up from Earth. Not that, as modern international affairs show, economic sanctions have every done anything.


Again that is your knowledge and opinion, which may or may not reflect what is in UC world. And Again the fed’s action soon after [sanction, EFSF, Naval review, rejection of colonial autonomy] does show that the fed blatantly reject Side 3’s independence. And trying to isolate Side 3 via sanction is one clear way for the fed to show its hostility against Side 3’s independence at the very least. Sanction was generally initiated to hurt the economy of the country under sanction by the hostile initiator. What sanction can do is to make many things becoming unavailable to populace [and gov’t to a degree] creating hardships and, while the initiator may hope for the populace to turn against their gov’t due to this hardship, it can also backfire and create more hatred towards to initiator of the sanction.

Quote:
The timing of things also make it possible that the EFSF wasn't given warships until the Zeon began building warships. We don't know which came first, the SAF or the EFSF, but there's not a lot of verified anti-Earth sentiment outside of Zeon pre-war, which suggests the colonies didn't feel like they were either occupied territory or being shortchanged. Side 2, in fact, was said to be extremely pro-Federation in some accounts. When the EFF are shown in org charts, the pre-war structure looks very heavily geared towards peacekeeping and internal security and not very well geared for fighting wars -- otherwise the major fleet base of the EFSF would probably not be as far from Side 3, the only potential military threat, as it is possible to be in the Earth Sphere.


While I do not know who is the first one to make first combat-capable vehicles [and it is rather futile and childish to try crying out you make it first like kids argument] according to Mark’s timeline the first Naval review was held by the fed in UC 0064, just 5 years after EFSF is established and the rearmament plan has initiated, and while Zeon Daikun is still alive and Zabi Family doesn’t take full control yet. The fed also rejects the notion for colonial autonomy in 0067. From Gundam Official website it is clearly stated that EFSF is created in response to Side 3’s independence declaration. According to Entertainment Bible Zeon Daikun himself is against hardline policy and try using negotiations till the very end of his life, and he got the cooperation of lunar industries [which IIRC leaders of lunar cities] to be able to make economical and political offensive. Zeon become militaristic after his death and Zabis take control around 0068, 4 years after Naval review. Maybe the fed is having Naval review to show the Earth sphere the fleet to fight uchuujin perhaps?

From Gundam Official website timeline Chivvay is commissioned and Salamis & Maggellen production begins in 0070, showing that basically both sides have pretty nasty arm races. The Entertainment bible also states that the fed’s 60s ships is small, missile-based type though [so yeah the fed does have something for fighting spacenoids].

It is also said in the Entertainment Bible that the fed tries to disrupt and isolate Side 3 during the short time after Daiken’s death. The fed also put garrision fleets [not just security forces] in each sides to prevent any collaboration between sides. Any colony would be very stupid to try to go against the fed with its goons right at the doorstep unless they can fight off those goons, especially after 0070. Just making a few big holes and the colony’s inhabitants go meet their makers. Side 6 can make a bid for independence only with the help of Zeon.

Quote:
As it is, if Earth was North America and all the other continents were the Sides, when Africa (side 3) declared independence, the Federation put MPs and internal-security forces throughout the world, but to counter the nascent African Military Force, they built the main EFSF base in Hawaii, where it's hard to sortie against the AMF directly, but they're well-placed should it try to attack South America or Southeast Asia (L4 and L5). Sure, building it in the Mediterranean would be smarter, but there's just one squadron there because its commander is a hardcase and believes in exercising his fleet over major holidays (Revil at L1).

.

So, yeah, people can claim that the Federation didn't like the idea of an independent Side 3, or that it built up a strong military to force them back into the fold, but such would run counter to everything we know about the Federation's dealings with space and the locations they decided to fortify.


Luna II was not originally at L3 according to Gundam Official; it is moved to L3 for its resources to be used in construction of Side 7. Revil at L1 would be ideal since he, as one of the better generals, would be right in front of Moon and Side 3. With all sides except Zeon’s Side 3 and perhaps Moon and Side 6 being garrisoned the fed probably think this is enough, given that they underestimate Zeon’s forces and believes Zeon won’t dare to start the attack according to Entertainment bible. It is also stated that Magellen and Salamis ships can make complete rounds without resupply, making reinforcements easy in theory.

And apart from Garrision fleets do we know the size of fed forces inside the colony? There are some at least since Ramba Ral troops fight some when he captures one of the colony.



Quote:
Consider, too, that the Titans, for all their power in 0087, seemingly consisted of a very small force until the AEUG went public. Regular Federation Forces troops garrison Titans facilities in Side 7/Green Noa, and other than a handful of Alexandria-cruisers the Titans steal every last one of its ships (predominantly Salamis Kais but also the Hario) from the Earth Federation Space Force or the Republic of Zeon, and we've also seen the Titans forcibly inducting EFSF pilots. (Yes, AoZ and other stories try to counter this, but in the animated works, the Titans force is sufficiently tiny that it's militarily commanded by a single naval Captain, the same position Bright has in CCA as the leader of Londo Bell -- it's possible the Titans were about the same size. And field commanders are mere lieutenant commaders -- only one step above what Bright was at the end of Movie III.)


Yet towards the end of Zeta Titans is getting bigger than what it begins with, and even get sympathizers such as New Decides and Aeno Fleet. When the fed withdraw its support from Titans why won’t those soldiers taken from regular forces defect or withdraw? They have convenient and legit excuse to get away. Also given its small size compared to Zeon they are capable of dishing out such atrocious acts, and seriously only that few higher members of the fed gov’t and fed forces know about it? There are enough people knowing to form AEUG. In my opinion the Dakar speech is necessary because it is broadcast to the public, and there would be no way for the fed to deny the fact anymore. Also the support AEUG got from the fed seems minimal. And given the attitude of personnels during ZZ's colony drop I wonder how many in the fed really think like that [population control and such].

I do not think spacenoids have to love and bow down to the fed as the lesser of the two evils.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:31 am 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child

Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:52 pm
Posts: 1116
Location: Athens, GA
domtropen wrote:
And trying to isolate Side 3 via sanction is one clear way for the fed to show its hostility against Side 3’s independence at the very least.


What reason does the Federation have to give Zeon its independence?

The Federation was created to unify the entire human race under a single banner. Allowing for factions and independent movements to develop runs counter to that idea. The Federation is all about cohesion.

Quote:
While I do not know who is the first one to make first combat-capable vehicles [and it is rather futile and childish to try crying out you make it first like kids argument] according to Mark’s timeline the first Naval review was held by the fed in UC 0064, just 5 years after EFSF is established and the rearmament plan has initiated, and while Zeon Daikun is still alive and Zabi Family doesn’t take full control yet.


And your calling things futile and childish is any better?

Whatever, man.

The National Guard was formed in 0058, which is a clear sign that the Republic was willing to fight for its independence. Now, tell me, is building an army a sign of good faith? We've seen states like Switzerland function just fine without a military, so this all reeks of having your cake and eating it, too. Deikun can rabble rouse about peace while building an army for the fledgeling nation named after himself. (The dude always came off as an egomaniac to me, but that is neither here nor there.)

Quote:
Any colony would be very stupid to try to go against the fed with its goons right at the doorstep unless they can fight off those goons, especially after 0070. Just making a few big holes and the colony’s inhabitants go meet their makers.


You make it sound as if the entire EFSF was Titans Lite, but that's clearly not the case. And what makes them goons? They're soldiers just doing their job, which consisted entirely of placidly sitting around the colonies and waiting for Zeon to make a move. It's one thing to oppose militarism. It's another to trash soldiers for the grievous sin of...being soldiers.

Quote:
When the fed withdraw its support from Titans why won’t those soldiers taken from regular forces defect or withdraw? They have convenient and legit excuse to get away.


They apparently do. The Hario slinks away from the Titans fleet after the Federaton stops backing them, and, by all appearances, the Titans fleet in the final episodes is just that: Titans.

Quote:
Also given its small size compared to Zeon they are capable of dishing out such atrocious acts, and seriously only that few higher members of the fed gov’t and fed forces know about it? There are enough people knowing to form AEUG.


That's actually rather telling. The people who really knew and felt strongly about it were the ones who went off and formed the AEUG. Everyone left in the regular forces and Federation Assembly was either in the dark or in denial.

Quote:
I do not think spacenoids have to love and bow down to the fed as the lesser of the two evils.


I don't think anyone is really saying that, but that's the second time you've suggested something to that effect. What's more, for all this talk of the lesser of two evils, you have made some surprising comments about how strategically sound things like the One Week War were. No, I don't think you love and adore everything Zeon does, but you seem to be much more willing to excuse their failings and crucify the Federation for their own.

_________________
This space for rent


Last edited by Imperial on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:44 am 
Offline
Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 am
Posts: 438
And what reason do colony have to be under the fed's thumb to begin with?

Just one ship slips away out of all that happen?

Why one who do not agree to the fed be automatically branded Zeon fans? And Zeon commiting more atrocious acts doesn't automatically make the fed more lovable like what some attempt to do here.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:06 pm 
Offline
Traitor Villain
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Posts: 5922
Location: California
domtropen wrote:
And Zeon commiting more atrocious acts doesn't automatically make the fed more lovable like what some attempt to do here.


perhaps not, but it certainly makes Zeon less lovable, so the Federation benefits by default simply by being the faction in the Universal Century that isn't intentionally murdering billions of people.

not a very high bar to meet, but meet it they do. whatever legitimate grievances Zeon and the other spacenoids have in the Universal Century get pretty well overshadowed by all the monstrous things they do.

to make the Zeon-Nazi comparison that Sunrise seems to want us to make so badly, Germany had some legitimate beefs with the Treaty of Versailles, none of which in any way even remotely begin to justify the things Nazi Germany did in WWII.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:28 pm 
Offline
Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 am
Posts: 438
Why do the "Zeon love" keep showing up? And nope the fed won't be preferred by default. It sounds like you have to choose among various dirty trash can because it is the only ones avaliable. And spacenoids are not all Zeon and they don't have reason to prefer any dark sugarcoated overlord to rule them.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:47 pm 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:14 pm
Posts: 1237
domtropen wrote:
And what reason do colony have to be under the fed's thumb to begin with?

We have precious little to suggest that the colonies were "under the fed's thumb" in any meaningful sense. The only thing remotely oppressive mentioned by sources prior to Zeon declaring independence was the fact that the Earth Federation forced people to emigrate from Earth to the Sides in the first place -- and given that Zeon's stance is that all people should live in space, that hardly seems like the sort of thing they would complain about.

domtropen wrote:
Why one who do not agree to the fed be automatically branded Zeon fans?

It probably has something to do with the fact that you repeatedly and explicitly say that you prefer Zeon to the Federation, even taking into account Zeon's habit of mass murder.

_________________
Fighting evil so you don't have to!


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:52 pm 
Offline
Traitor Villain
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Posts: 5922
Location: California
well, yeah, that is the point of "choosing the lesser evil." you don't have a better choice, so you choose the one that's least bad.

i'm not sure what it is you're trying to prove.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:06 pm 
Offline
Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 am
Posts: 438
Since when do I say I would like Zeon over other factions? And why would other spacenoids have to follow Zeon's ideals?

The reason I post all this is that it seem someone think the fed should be chosen just because it is less evil than other factions, to the point of denying their faults and make the fed so rosy.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:14 pm 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child

Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:52 pm
Posts: 1116
Location: Athens, GA
domtropen wrote:
Why do the "Zeon love" keep showing up? And nope the fed won't be preferred by default. It sounds like you have to choose among various dirty trash can because it is the only ones avaliable. And spacenoids are not all Zeon and they don't have reason to prefer any dark sugarcoated overlord to rule them.


Zeon love from a guy named after a Zeon mobile suit who keeps making excuses for Zeon? I don't know what to tell you.

"Default" is a lack or an absence or a want. In the ABSENCE of anything better, the Federation is the best choice.

Let's make an analogy. You can choose between being shot, set on fire or given a stiff slap across the face. Which do you choose? Most would pick the slap, I wager. All of the options are less than desirable, but which one does the least harm at the end of the day?

To bring things back to the UC: When every other option consists of people starting wars with nerve gas or automated genocide drones or guillotines, the Federation is the only choice left for people who don't want to be butchered in massive numbers in the name of high ideology. The various Spacenoid armies have a fetish for war crimes. The Federation is just lazy and smug.

You seem to be advocating some sort of independent space state built upon utopian ideals, but there's nothing like that in the Universal Century. There is only the Federation and its bloodthirsty opposition. You may yearn to see some pure, colonial revolution, but that just doesn't exist anymore with how Zeon and its descendants have hijacked the movement.

See? Zeon didn't just screw things up for a few decades. They pissed in everyone's pool forever.

_________________
This space for rent


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:20 pm 
Offline
Traitor Villain
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Posts: 5922
Location: California
if they're saying the Federation is less evil than other factions, then they're really not making the Federation look "rosy," they're saying it's not the worst faction you'll find in the Universal Century. and, well, it's not. that title goes to the ones that are trying to kill everyone. an indifferent, corrupt, stagnant government is pretty crappy, but it's a lot better than a fascist government that's trying to kill you, because you can't do anything about either when you're dead, but only one of them is actively trying to kill you.

it seems like you're trying to say somehow that the Federation is worse than Zeon. and while the Federation of UC Gundam is by no means a Star Trek-esque utopia, it's, y'know, also not trying to kill everyone as a general war goal. so unless you're willing to overlook the whole genocide thing (and apparently quite a few people are), Zeon kind of loses the moral argument anyway.

either way, the moral of the story is that fanboyism is stupid.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:34 pm 
Offline
Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 am
Posts: 438
Just because I like Dom mean I am Zeon dogs? If someone like Tiger tank means they are Nazis? And what excuse are you talking about? I keep saying that Zeon do hideous things and that should show that I don't like their methods and Gihren's belief already.

And what do I wrote make the fed more evil than Zeon? Just because I point out the fed's fault means Zeon is good? Look like fed fanboys think anyone say anything against fed means they are Zeon fanboys by default.

Actually I don't have to say much. The fed by Victory times seem to decay enough. And please don't group me with Zanscare.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:39 pm 
Offline
Traitor Villain
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:06 pm
Posts: 2340
Location: 미합중국 버지니아주 페어팩스군
Imperial wrote:
We've seen states like Switzerland function just fine without a military...


Switzerland has, and has always had, a military. A very active one, too. When I lived there, in a picturesque European countryside, it wasn't unusual to hear the rattle of rifles and heavy vehicle driving around off in the distance because they were running exercises or whatever. Getting on a commuter train and seeing tanks transported on the next set of rails was commonplace. Living in a country famed for its neutrality and experiencing the noise and equipment of warfare pretty frequently turned a few notions on their heads, to say the least.

Quote:
...by all appearances, the Titans fleet in the final episodes is just that: Titans.


A lot of RoZ Musais are visible among the Titan forces in the last couple of episodes ;)


But enough of my little nitpicks. At the core of all this disagreement is this:

domtropen wrote:
The reason I post all this is that it seem someone think the fed should be chosen just because it is less evil than other factions, to the point of denying their faults and make the fed so rosy.


domtropen, where are you getting this? I don't think I've ever seen anyone discuss the EF in relation to Zeon - this thread or otherwise - by describing the former as anything better than "the lesser of two evils" (the most common phrase for explaining it, really). When the highest praise fans tend to have for the Federation tends to be "well, at least they don't have a general policy of killing everybody" then I'm not sure you can fairly call that "denying their faults and mak[ing] the fed so rosy".

domtropen wrote:
It sounds like you have to choose among various dirty trash can because it is the only ones avaliable.


Pretty much, yeah. That's what all the UC Gundam productions have presented us with.

I'm not sure what your overall point is anymore. It seems to be "the EF isn't perfect, you guys!" and nobody's disagreeing with you on that. Why are we making posts that sound like we disagree about something?

_________________
RPG TRINARY: Gaia
Die Anti-brutale Kraft: Cardi Doorl


Make sure to check out the RPG section - We're about to start a new VOTOMS RPG!


Last edited by Cardi Doorl on Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:40 pm 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child

Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:52 pm
Posts: 1116
Location: Athens, GA
Well, aren't I just the ugliest American right now?

I retract my statement about Switzerland, having made baseless assumptions without ever setting foot in the country.

I *also* failed to realize there were Musais in the fleet, but the point I was trying to make still stands: The Federation regulars have pulled a collective vanishing act by the time the time the Titans become pariahs, which is pretty well indicative of the Federation being serious when it washed its hands of the boys in black.

_________________
This space for rent


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:53 pm 
Offline
Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 am
Posts: 438
I think things start to mutate since page 2. And I just don't like the notion of choosing between various garbages, but that's just me. If lots of regular feds do make vanishing act and Titans who decide to wreck prototype [potential] superweapon on their own will like in AOZ it would give me some faith :D


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:33 pm 
Offline
Mysterious Masked Dude
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:20 am
Posts: 598
domtropen wrote:
And Again the fed’s action soon after [sanction, EFSF, Naval review, rejection of colonial autonomy] does show that the fed blatantly reject Side 3’s independence. And trying to isolate Side 3 via sanction is one clear way for the fed to show its hostility against Side 3’s independence at the very least. And trying to isolate Side 3 via sanction is one clear way for the fed to show its hostility against Side 3’s independence at the very least.

I don't think it shows anything of the kind. For one, the Federation is a collective group of nations. Side 3 declared independence from the Federation. Why should the Federation establish trade relations with Side 3, which had just said they didn't want to be a part of the family? And it's not like Side 3 needs anything from Earth, because, as I noted before, every material on Earth can be found in space, and it's cheaper (from an energy-used standpoint) to ship things from the asteroid belt than to ship them up from Earth -- this is precisely why so many asteroids were moved into the Earthsphere. And we know Side 3 has some asteroids, or at least A Baoa Qu. Plus that whole 20-years-of-independence thing without an economic collapse and with a massive military buildup, which really suggests neither Side 3's economy nor its populace suffered for the lack of trade relations with the larger Federation.

Sure, the Federation doubtless doesn't like the idea of the colonies (and so much of the tax base) becoming independent of the Federation, but if they let Side 3 rot for 20 years without doing anything more than building up a predominantly peacekeeping military force, it's very difficult to say that the Federation was bent on militarily reconquering Side 3 -- they don't even force it back into the Federation after winning the war. The Federation was happy with the status quo ante, which rather suggests that they really didn't care that Side 3 had gone rogue, even if they weren't about to let another Side go rogue (except that, of course, they did -- Side 6, in 0077; no massive EFSF occupation followed the Side's actions, nor any sort of massive military buildup).

domtropen wrote:
Sanction was generally initiated to hurt the economy of the country under sanction by the hostile initiator. What sanction can do is to make many things becoming unavailable to populace [and gov’t to a degree] creating hardships and, while the initiator may hope for the populace to turn against their gov’t due to this hardship, it can also backfire and create more hatred towards to initiator of the sanction.

This is indeed the theory behind sanctions. Now, find me a case where the practice has ever worked. Or, tell me what resources Side 3 was starved of due to these sanctions?

domtropen wrote:
While I do not know who is the first one to make first combat-capable vehicles [and it is rather futile and childish to try crying out you make it first like kids argument] according to Mark’s timeline the first Naval review was held by the fed in UC 0064, just 5 years after EFSF is established and the rearmament plan has initiated, and while Zeon Daikun is still alive and Zabi Family doesn’t take full control yet. The fed also rejects the notion for colonial autonomy in 0067. From Gundam Official website it is clearly stated that EFSF is created in response to Side 3’s independence declaration. According to Entertainment Bible Zeon Daikun himself is against hardline policy and try using negotiations till the very end of his life, and he got the cooperation of lunar industries [which IIRC leaders of lunar cities] to be able to make economical and political offensive. Zeon become militaristic after his death and Zabis take control around 0068, 4 years after Naval review. Maybe the fed is having Naval review to show the Earth sphere the fleet to fight uchuujin perhaps?

You brought it up; I was just running with it. Naval Reviews are as much about instilling national pride in your own people as about reminding anyone else that you have a military. Yes, EFSF is created in 0059; a year after the Zeon Home Guard, which happened concurrently with the declaration of independence.

domtropen wrote:
It is also said in the Entertainment Bible that the fed tries to disrupt and isolate Side 3 during the short time after Daiken’s death. The fed also put garrision fleets [not just security forces] in each sides to prevent any collaboration between sides. Any colony would be very stupid to try to go against the fed with its goons right at the doorstep unless they can fight off those goons, especially after 0070. Just making a few big holes and the colony’s inhabitants go meet their makers. Side 6 can make a bid for independence only with the help of Zeon.

Well, the Federation doesn't seem to have tried very hard to invade Side 3 after Daikun's death. Which would certainly have been a good time to do so -- if they were ever interested in attacking anyone. But we've never seen the Federation as a whole interested in attacking anyone -- or even defending the colonies against someone else's attack. They let Side 6 go rather than fight, let Side 3 go without a fight, and nearly negotiated an end to the OYW after only a month of fighting until Revil shamed them into continuing the fight. The Federation condemns the Titans, but doesn't do much else. Negotiates with Haman, giving her free reign to occupy Side 3, negotiates with Char rather than fight his Neo-Zeon movement, and tries to ignore Cosmo Babylonia despite their invasion of a new Side. At what point has the Federation ever been aggressive? This is, in fact, why people always denounce the Federation as weak, cowardly, and indecisive -- because that's exactly how they behave. EFSF commanders intervene in conflicts, sometimes "defecting" to do so, but the Federation Government's first reaction is always to run from a fight.

domtropen wrote:
Luna II was not originally at L3 according to Gundam Official; it is moved to L3 for its resources to be used in construction of Side 7.

Yes, a full decade after its conversion into an EFSF base. And yet, all the operational (as opposed to garrison) fleets were home-ported there. Since the Salamis and Magellan ships weren't built until the same time that Luna II was moved to L3, we can't even argue bureaucratic inertia; they were intentionally based at Luna II, as far from Zeon as they could be placed.

domtropen wrote:
Revil at L1 would be ideal since he, as one of the better generals, would be right in front of Moon and Side 3. With all sides except Zeon’s Side 3 and perhaps Moon and Side 6 being garrisoned the fed probably think this is enough, given that they underestimate Zeon’s forces and believes Zeon won’t dare to start the attack according to Entertainment bible. It is also stated that Magellen and Salamis ships can make complete rounds without resupply, making reinforcements easy in theory.

I agree with you in principle, but Revil's fleet being at L1 is generally couched as his own initiative, rather than the fleet being permanently based there. Which means it's not a part of Federation policy to have the fleet there, it's the one intelligent admiral having his fleet there because he think it's better than where it's supposed to be.

The fact that ships don't need to refuel means nothing; it will still take time for the fleets to traverse from one side of the planet to the other, and the travel times we typically see suggest that this is a transit time of days, meaning that it would take several days for any main combat fleet of the EFSF to react to any provocative action by the Zeons against L1, L4 or L5. Not exactly the best placement as an offensive base.

domtropen wrote:
And apart from Garrision fleets do we know the size of fed forces inside the colony? There are some at least since Ramba Ral troops fight some when he captures one of the colony.

We don't even know the size of the Garrison fleets, just that they were equipped with only Salamis cruisers, no Magellans. Nor do we know how many constabulary forces there were in each colony.

domtropen wrote:
Yet towards the end of Zeta Titans is getting bigger than what it begins with, and even get sympathizers such as New Decides and Aeno Fleet. When the fed withdraw its support from Titans why won’t those soldiers taken from regular forces defect or withdraw? They have convenient and legit excuse to get away. Also given its small size compared to Zeon they are capable of dishing out such atrocious acts, and seriously only that few higher members of the fed gov’t and fed forces know about it? There are enough people knowing to form AEUG. In my opinion the Dakar speech is necessary because it is broadcast to the public, and there would be no way for the fed to deny the fact anymore. Also the support AEUG got from the fed seems minimal. And given the attitude of personnels during ZZ's colony drop I wonder how many in the fed really think like that [population control and such].

Technically, the New Decides and Aeno Fleet don't join the Titans, because they don't rebel from the Federation until after the Titans have already been destroyed. If we even accept Sentinel as part of the UC (which isn't required, since it's not animated), we can see the New Decides as a group of soldiers who are upset that their buddies (the Titans) just got hung out to dry by the Gov't (and soldiers set a lot of store by their friends, often moreso than their gov't), while Aeno's defection struck me as a naked power grab due to the lack of (in his opinion) anyone able to stop him. (Spoiler: he miscalculated.)

domtropen wrote:
I do not think spacenoids have to love and bow down to the fed as the lesser of the two evils.

They shouldn't have to, but there's no third option presented in the Universal Century. It's Zeon (or a Remnant thereof) or the Federation as the only options. Not good options, but the only ones around -- and when you only have those two options, who do you side with? The people who have a demonstrated habit of killing people for no particular reason, or the people who really don't care what you think so long as you stay quietly in your colony?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:09 am 
Offline
HiMAT Spammer

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:47 pm
Posts: 819
Location: in ur colony, steelin ur gundam
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
Zeonista wrote:
I'd say that the Titans were well-known as a bunch of power-tripping villains well in advance of the Dakar speech. The AEUG isn't some rag-tag outfit, it's a full-scale volunteer military force supported by corporations like Anaheim Electronics, who collectively employ millions of employees to design and build AEUG's equipment. So already at the beginning of the Zeta story, there are many people who know what happened at 30 Bunch, who did it and why, and they are ready to "do their bit" to prevention of future repetition.

That doesn't follow. Just because the AEUG was well-funded and well-organized, that doesn't imply that the 30 Bunch incident was common knowledge. It also flies in the face of what we see in the animation -- most people are shown to simply not know about it, including the Earth Federation Assembly. High-ranking government officials certainly have more resources to draw from than the average Joe Spacenoid -- if the bigwigs don't know the score, how can you expect the masses to?


I'd say it's because the bigwigs on Earth didn't live in space, and so missed out on the significance of 30 Bunch abruptly ceasing communication & interaction with its fellow Side 1 colonies, and possibly those of other Sides. This wasn't some overlooked orphan Island-1 drifiting on the fringe of a Side, it was a full-size Island-3 type acting as a home to millions of people. The Titans could put up a cover story for a while, and maybe coerce some officials to back their story. But eventually some random colonist was going to try to get back in touch, take a closer look after signaling failed to get a response, and open an access hatch upon a scene of horror.

The AEUG was not a top-down movement condoned by Federation politicians, but a grassroots movement originating among the those living in the Sides and on the Moon, who had every reason to believe the Titans had crossed the line between zealous duty and ruthless oppression. Granted, there might not have been enough evidence to satisfy an investigation committee or an attorney-general's investigation, but AEUG & Karaba members weren't interested in an NCIS-style case, they wanted to make people realize that the Titans were as dangerous to the people they were ostensibly guarding as they were to the Zeon remnants. If only a fraction of those who heard about the 30 Bunch Incident and other incidents of misconduct felt strongly enough to join AEUG, then it might follow that many knew the truth about the Titans, but were not yet willing to rise against them. Eventually the movement gained enough support to be able to openly demand via Char Aznable, that something needed to be done. The AEUG's claims were vindicated in no small part due to the Titans leadership who could not or would not moderate their policy of forceful suppression.

So I would not say there was no information on the Titans engaging in unlawful behavior that had made it to the public, and even to the halls of the EUG in Dakar. What the politicians might have made of it in the light of Jamitov Hymen's confident declarations to the contrary and the fear that things might have gotten out of control is open to speculation.

_________________
Gundam Unicorn I wear my loyalty on my Sleeve.

I am Ral-san, enthusiast of Zeon MS, maker of Zeon gunpla, encouraging mentor of younger fans, and an admirer of mature beauty.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:37 am 
Offline
Mysterious Masked Dude
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:20 am
Posts: 598
Zeonista wrote:
I'd say it's because the bigwigs on Earth didn't live in space, and so missed out on the significance of 30 Bunch abruptly ceasing communication & interaction with its fellow Side 1 colonies, and possibly those of other Sides. This wasn't some overlooked orphan Island-1 drifiting on the fringe of a Side, it was a full-size Island-3 type acting as a home to millions of people. The Titans could put up a cover story for a while, and maybe coerce some officials to back their story. But eventually some random colonist was going to try to get back in touch, take a closer look after signaling failed to get a response, and open an access hatch upon a scene of horror.

Our modern common sense would agree with you -- but that's not what the animation shows. In the animation, we're shown three people from different walks of life and their reaction to physically visiting 30 Bunch, Kamille, Emma, and Lila. Emma was a new Titans member, so we can say that clearly word of 30 Bunch hadn't gotten to the Titans recruits yet, as she's aghast at the very idea of 30 Bunch. Kamille, however, is a spacenoid, but he had also not heard anything about 30 Bunch. And Lila is a senior serving member of the EFSF, and what does she think when she sees the Argama heading to 30 Bunch? That it's an AEUG base. She seems to have heard of the incident, but she didn't seem to know it was that particular colony, suggesting that there were indeed rumors that the Titans had gassed a colony, but not specifically which one. Rumors which can't identify the specific colony are pretty easy to ignore.

As I said before, the animation seems to imply a lesser degree of communication between colonies and Sides than we in the 20th and 21st centuries take for granted. ZZ showcases "lost" inhabited colonies, further strengthening the idea that sending messages between colonies is not as widespread as we might think.

Zeonista wrote:
So I would not say there was no information on the Titans engaging in unlawful behavior that had made it to the public, and even to the halls of the EUG in Dakar. What the politicians might have made of it in the light of Jamitov Hymen's confident declarations to the contrary and the fear that things might have gotten out of control is open to speculation.

Yes, there seem to be rumors about what the Titans are up to within the military -- which prompts some of them to defect and form the AEUG, while others just shrug it off as either fear-mongering or unimportant. But there's no evidence to suggest that any civilians anywhere know about 30 Bunch -- and if they do, they don't seem to be telling anyone.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:10 am 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:39 pm
Posts: 1190
Location: Buffalo, NY
Just a minor nitpick... I don't know where you're getting "Bunch" from but the Japanese バンチ (banchi) is really just 番地 which means 'house number' or 'address'. Ergo, it's Colony 30, Colony 1, etc. Bunch would imply there are multiple colonies together, which we know not to be true.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:32 am 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Posts: 1152
Black Knight wrote:
Don't need the Jupiter Energy Fleet to mine asteroids, but rather Helium-3. But Zeon's Axis shows that, yes, they had access to the main asteroid belts and not just the scads of NEO asteriods.


You are completely missing the point of the neutraility of the Jupiter Energy Fleet. If Zeon could indeed obtain Helium-3, not accepting the neutrality of the Jovian Fleet would have been their most logical course of action. Also, in the original script, Sometime after the Battle of Solomon the Federation to attack the Jovian Fleet to cut off Zeon's supply of Helium-3.

Black Knight wrote:
Well, Granada, as a lunar city, was essentially neutral already; that's why a fair portion of the Mobile Suit development projects could be conducted there. Then the Zeons formally seized it and integrated it into their defense structure (though Reccoa's flashbacks indicate not all was peace and serenity on the moon during the OYW).


I have looked around and found (or rather didn't) that there's very little information on Granada before the outbreak of the OYW or regarding when did Zeon set their base there. The best I could find is from Gundam Century, which mentions that during the 3 months after its formation on May U.C. 0076, the Mobile Training Batallion conducted exercises on the craters close to Granada, which is already referred to as a lunar base. Since there's not emntion of an invasion at any point, it seems more likely that the lunarians from Granda were sided with Zeon, similair to Side 6, but in a more open way.

Black Knight wrote:
Side 3 was not controlled by the Federation after the OYW. So anyone appointed to rule a colony in Side 3 (assuming he wasn't democratically elected) would be an appointee of the Republic of Zeon, not the Earth Federation. Don't go blaming crappy Side 3 politicians on the Federation!


The common claim is that the government of the Republic of Zeon was a puppet government of the Federation. And the mayor of Shangri La is a good example of them putting that kind of people the put in charge of a colony.

More to the point I was making, there are plenty of historical cases of economic hardship that are hard to lay at the feet of the government trying to clean them up. Food rationing from WWII in the United Kingdom didn't end until 1954; was this the fault of the various British governments, or of Hitler, who didn't believe the British war ultimatum? It's a sticky moral question, no matter which side you argue, which is my point. Nothing is clear-cut when talking about the devastation following a war, and said devastation can last long after the war is over.

Black Knight wrote:
Except that the fleets, according to most of the text sources you constantly mention for other points, were based almost entirely at Luna II -- Revil's fleet at Side 5 being the sole exception. The garrison forces in the colonies were, according to the org charts, infantry-type forces (like those seen inside Side 7 when on Slender Denim Gene's raid in MSG) suited to crowd-control rather than ship-to-ship warfare. The garrison forces were inconvenient, but not a threat. But sufficient grounds to gas entire colonies, at least for the Zeon high command.


This is the only source with actually says that all six Federation fleets were at Luna II and were led by Revil to Side 5, which contradicts the idea that Revil's fleet was already at Side 5. Are saying that all of the Federation fleets were at Luna II, including Revil's?[/quote]

Black Knight wrote:
Well, according to Sunrise, the only "official" information is what's animated, which means that Side 2 in 0087 had up to 85 colonies while Side 4 had 27; Side 1 had 30 in 0085. Which brings our total colonies up to ~142, not 115. If only 40 colonies came from Side 6, then we have 102 colonies to claim as survivors from the other four Sides, unless Side 5 was truly wiped out as claimed in all the sources (though Igloo's interpretation of the battle seems to indicate all the colonies surviving; they certainly weren't caught in the crossfire as previously claimed, but also seems to be the "official" Sunrise take on the fight).


The 115 I counted were considering "combined Sides". Besides, the only info I found on Bunch 27 is that it was the colony used by the Titans for the Colony Drop, but in this site it is identified as part of Side 5. If you have a different source saying otherwise, please share it with us.

Black Knight wrote:
domtropen wrote:
Again do we know the number of fed forces inside the colony?

Numbers in general in Gundam is a tricky subject; we can't even decide how many people, on average, lived inside a colony. We can't even figure out how large humanity is at any particular time. So, no, there's no idea of how large the Federation Forces presence in a colony was, but some of the sourcebooks claim the garrisons were merely constublary forces; no one claims that the pre-OYW Sides were armed camps stuffed to the gills with EFSF personnel.

Well, if we can't go by numbers, how about by comparisons: Gundam Century claims that at the beginning of the war the Federation thought they could easily put down the rebellion since they had ten times the fighting strength of the Zeon forces. By Loum we are told that they only outnumber the Zeon forces by a factor of 3 or 4. While it's possible that a fleet was left guarding Luna II, most rest of the Federation forces were probably stationed at Sides 1, 2 and 4 and were destroyed when Zeon attacked those Sides. For the sake of making a simple example, let's say that half of the Federation forces were at the colony garrisons and the other half were the forces that participated in Loum, and we could consider that the remaining tenth is represented by the forces lsot during Operation Brisitsh and/or the forces left to guard Luna II when the rest of the fleet left for Side 5. In such case it seems quite likely that eachSide had a colony garrison that had as much fighting strength of the entire Zeon forces in the worst scenario (30% colony garrisons, 40% participating at Loum, 30% percent Operation British losses and Luna II defense) and as many as twice in the best scenario (60% colony garrisons, 30 participating at Loum, 10 percent Operation British and/or Luna II defense), at least according to the Federation calculations.

Either way, we have that the Federation forces had lost about half of their forces before the Battle of Loum and most of those lost forces were probably stationed at the attacked Sides.

Black Knight wrote:
domtropen wrote:
And even after Dakar even more brutalities were executed by Titans forces [more gassing and colony laser] before they can be eliminated. Like it or not Titans is still part of the fed, and since just one part of the fed can deliver the same or worst atrocrious act against spacenoids -rebels and innocents alike- repeatly before the rest of the fed try to stop it, how can the fed be trusted?

The Titans were indeed part of the Federation, but they were also keeping their misdeeds under wraps, such that even 18 months after gassing 30 Bunch its demise was still rumor to those who'd heard anything, and many people hadn't even heard the rumors -- the reactions of Emma and Lyla when Argama visits the colony makes this clear. And as soon as the Federation government is confronted with the excesses of the Titans, the government repudiates them and declares them outlaws, making it clear that the Titans committed these atrocities on their own, rather than as the official policy of the Federation. This doesn't absolve the Federation of complicit complacency, but it does show that ethnic cleansing was not an official policy of the Federation, and this is where the Federation and Principality of Zeon governments differ with their treatment of spacenoids.


Emma and Lyla are not the best examples for making your point, if for no other reason because it's unlikely that the Federation would allow such rumors to flow freely among their ranks, which could lead to an uprising.

Black Knight wrote:
Imperial wrote:
Granted, I'm not totally up to date, but any show is going to have a hard time "out-Zeoning" 0083 or MS IGLOO. Sure, Unicorn makes a point of saying the people who fight for Zeon are a disenfranchised lot desperate to find something to believe in, but Banagher, the POV character with whom we are clearly meant to agree, consistently points out that none of this gives them the right to become a terrorist cell, which is a much more scathing condemnation of Zeon than anything the flag-waving IGLOO crew have to say about it.

I clearly should have spent more time on this topic. Yes, 0083 and Igloo show the military superiority of the Zeons, despite them (seemingly inexplicably) losing the OYW, but I don't remember them saying much about the justice underlying Zeon's cause, which gets a fair amount of play in Unicorn. Sure, Delaz gets all hot and bothered about the Federation building a nuclear-armed Gundam and tries to twist this into "Federation = Evil! Zeon = Righteous!" despite 1) Zeon's track record and 2) there being no proof that nuclear weapons aren't allowed to exist, just a prohibition on using them (which he builds his plan around violating, too). So, while there's a lot about how cool & badass the Zeons are, there isn't a lot of screentime devoted to justifying the Zeon war of aggression -- unlike Unicorn, which spends a fair amount of Episode 2 delving into this very topic. And while there are shills for the Zeon perspective, there's no one arguing the Federation side, just Banagher saying "Well, maybe you're right -- but you shouldn't have killed so many people!"


Unicorn is not a very good example for your case, at least as far as the OVA episodes go (I don't know what happens later on) and in the specific case of the Sleeves. Banagher POV is the one of someone who doesn't want to be involved with the conflict and already thinks that both sides are equally "evil". From what we see in the OVAs, the Sleeves that end up involved in the attack on Industrial 7 are not attacking civilians and rather seem to be wanting to avoid damaging them, such as Marida withdrwawing her bits and Sinnerman sparing Banagher.

On the other hand the Federation goes all out in the battle. This reminded me of when Char was fighting the GM IIs and Gryps and said something regarding earthnoids fighting in the colonies liek they were fighting on Earth, despite the former being far more fragile.

Other than attacking the Federation Forces, the Sleeves have yet to commit and atrocious act like other Zeon factions. And jsut in case you bring up the Shamblo, whiel at this point we don't know all the details, it seems that Loni Garvey's attack on Dakar is her personal revenge on the Federation, and until the episode comes out, we won't know exactly what is the Sleeves position regarding that.

Black Knight wrote:
domtropen wrote:
I won't used the word atrocious for Zeon if I think it is ok. And it is not ok for Titans to commit it and should I trust its boss who fail to stop its repeated acts? I agree that both Zeon and Titans are evil, but I do not agree that spacenoids have to like the fed because it looks like the lesser of the evil. And after all these wars and tragedies the fed still doesn't correct one of the root causes for all these messes: any plan to grant independence or equality to spacenoids. What does spacenoids get after OYW? naval review, Titans, Londo Bell, and that colony laser still hanging in the sky.

I'd have said they get to "continue living" which is more than any of the other factions offer them.

Sure, the Federation isn't perfect, but since the first century of the UC calender is effectively a two-party system, the "everyday spacenoid" really only has the options between "would exterminate you for your land" and "don't really care about you, but will violently react to challenges to our authority".


Well, during the OYW Zeon did respect Side 6 (which you could argue they had connections with) and Von Braun's neutrality, so extermination isn't certainly a rule of the dumb. And don't forget that it was Zeon who helped Side 6 obtain their independance. And besides, later Zeon movements are not exterminating spacenoids. In fact, most space-bound Zeon remnants left on the Earth Sphere were probalby helped by them and other groups such as Haman's and Char's even seeked their support. In their cases, their acts of genocides were directed at the Earth populations and even then at the improtant cities where the "Earth Elites", and unfortuantely a lot of unrelated earthnoids lived. Let's not forget that in thsoe cases these Earth Elites were more concerned about saving only themselves while feeling grateful that "they would have less mouths to feed".

Black Knight wrote:
If Moon-Moon can be lost, it seems even spacenoids may not care about much more than the doings of their own individual colonies, which paints a much more isolationist and non-communicative view of spacenoids than what seems to be assumed by many people due to our highly-interconnected modern world.


Moon Moon is and will always be a very odd case. For once it uses an different and less efficient type of colony. Then, I have the impression that they might eb an indigenous group that the Federation drove out of their land or rather promsied them a better live in space and put them in such colony as a sort of experiment, and afterwards forgot about them.

Black Knight wrote:
domtropen wrote:
and completely ignore all argument about the fed not accept it, build up EFSF, and put sanction on it?

What about the Federation "not accepting" Zeon's independence? They essentially ignored the Side, just like the Federation ignores all problems in space whenever it can (and sometimes when it can't). That doesn't change the fact that Zeon declared independence and governed itself independently, or that the Federation appeared to be completely content with this situation, or at least unwilling to act in any forceful way to change it. While sourcebooks attempt to justify Zeon's War of Aggression with claims of economic sanctions from the Federation, there's nothing on Earth which can't be found in space, and everything in space is more economical to move to a colony than it is to ship it up from Earth. Not that, as modern international affairs show, economic sanctions have every done anything.


But the Federation indeed begins building their military forces on U.C.0060 as a result of Zeon's declaration of independence on U.C. 0058. The Zabis doesn't rise to power until U.C. 0068. As for the resources, yes, common sense tell us that all the resources they need "should" be available, but the economic sanctions and Zeon's need to secure resources on Earth say otherwise. What are they possible lacking that is not available in space? We don't know, but the first TV series in particular seems to make emphasis on Zeon's need for resources that they don't have available in space, so we will just have to accept that and work around it.

Black Knight wrote:
The timing of things also make it possible that the EFSF wasn't given warships until the Zeon began building warships. We don't know which came first, the SAF or the EFSF, but there's not a lot of verified anti-Earth sentiment outside of Zeon pre-war, which suggests the colonies didn't feel like they were either occupied territory or being shortchanged. Side 2, in fact, was said to be extremely pro-Federation in some accounts. When the EFF are shown in org charts, the pre-war structure looks very heavily geared towards peacekeeping and internal security and not very well geared for fighting wars -- otherwise the major fleet base of the EFSF would probably not be as far from Side 3, the only potential military threat, as it is possible to be in the Earth Sphere.


The EFSF.

Black Knight wrote:
So, yeah, people can claim that the Federation didn't like the idea of an independent Side 3, or that it built up a strong military to force them back into the fold, but such would run counter to everything we know about the Federation's dealings with space and the locations they decided to fortify.


The location of Luna II could simply mean that they wanted a base which would not be targeted first in case of an attack. And as I previously mentioned, the colony garrisons actually seem to be quite large, so there's no need to have another fortress in that zone.

Black Knight wrote:
domtropen wrote:
And Again the fed’s action soon after [sanction, EFSF, Naval review, rejection of colonial autonomy] does show that the fed blatantly reject Side 3’s independence. And trying to isolate Side 3 via sanction is one clear way for the fed to show its hostility against Side 3’s independence at the very least. And trying to isolate Side 3 via sanction is one clear way for the fed to show its hostility against Side 3’s independence at the very least.

I don't think it shows anything of the kind. For one, the Federation is a collective group of nations. Side 3 declared independence from the Federation. Why should the Federation establish trade relations with Side 3, which had just said they didn't want to be a part of the family? And it's not like Side 3 needs anything from Earth, because, as I noted before, every material on Earth can be found in space, and it's cheaper (from an energy-used standpoint) to ship things from the asteroid belt than to ship them up from Earth -- this is precisely why so many asteroids were moved into the Earthsphere. And we know Side 3 has some asteroids, or at least A Baoa Qu. Plus that whole 20-years-of-independence thing without an economic collapse and with a massive military buildup, which really suggests neither Side 3's economy nor its populace suffered for the lack of trade relations with the larger Federation.


I already talked about the resources, so let's mvoe to the economic sanctions. Let's face it: whatever economic sanctions the Federation imposed on Side 3 should have been important enough that the Federation thought that Sdie 3 would be left with no choice but to rejoin the Federation, so they were certainly nothing minor.

Black Knight wrote:
Sure, the Federation doubtless doesn't like the idea of the colonies (and so much of the tax base) becoming independent of the Federation, but if they let Side 3 rot for 20 years without doing anything more than building up a predominantly peacekeeping military force, it's very difficult to say that the Federation was bent on militarily reconquering Side 3 -- they don't even force it back into the Federation after winning the war. The Federation was happy with the status quo ante, which rather suggests that they really didn't care that Side 3 had gone rogue, even if they weren't about to let another Side go rogue (except that, of course, they did -- Side 6, in 0077; no massive EFSF occupation followed the Side's actions, nor any sort of massive military buildup).


As mentioned in the Gundam Officials glossary, the EFSF is created in response to Zeon's declaration of independence on U.C. 0059 and the formation of whatever could have made up their national guard, and by U.C. 0079 they have ten times as much fighting strength as Zeon in space, so it would seem that the military option was indeed among their considered options. As for Side 6, the Federation tends to focus only on one. the major threat, at a time, which obviously was Zeon. Let's not forget that in U.C.0083 they allowed the Axis fleet to stay on the Earth Sphere since they were more busy with the Delaz fleet. The non-militarized Side 6 was not a threat to the federation, so they left it alone while they first dealt with Zeon. In the end, after the OYW comes to an end, all the neutral populations are forced back into the Federation.

Deacon Blues wrote:
Just a minor nitpick... I don't know where you're getting "Bunch" from but the Japanese バンチ (banchi) is really just 番地 which means 'house number' or 'address'. Ergo, it's Colony 30, Colony 1, etc. Bunch would imply there are multiple colonies together, which we know not to be true.


I also use the term bunches for referring to colonies, and other sources do as well, but the term itself comes from notion that the O'Neill colonies were supposed to exist in bunches, not individually as depicted in Gundam, something which is explained here.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:15 am 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:39 pm
Posts: 1190
Location: Buffalo, NY
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
I also use the term bunches for referring to colonies, and other sources do as well, but the term itself comes from notion that the O'Neill colonies were supposed to exist in bunches, not individually as depicted in Gundam, something which is explained here.


There was actually a huge argument I got into about this on GameFaqs many a moon ago. I believe it was around the time the Zeta movies came out in which a certain weaboo subtitle group had "Colony 30 Incident" when referring to the Titans gassing of the colony. I had argued up and down that it should have been 30th Bunch given the katakana. However, the colonies don't really exist separately as people think. They are more or less grouped together in pockets (at least from cutaways and what not that we see in shows). The sides are collectively a "bunch" I suppose.

But, to be fair:

GundamOfficial wrote:
Colony 30

The thirtieth space colony of the Side 1 cluster. After the One Year War, Side 1 and Side 2 become hotbeds of anti-Earth Federation sentiment, and on July 31, U.C. 0085, a massive political demonstration takes place at Side 1's Colony 30. Disregarding international law, Titan forces commanded by Bask Om suppress the demonstration with poison gas, exterminating three million innocent colony dwellers. However, this atrocity only serves to inspire stronger resistance, and in the wake of the Colony 30 Incident the AEUG begins preparations for open warfare against the Titans.


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Board index » Discussion » Anime and Manga


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: