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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:09 am 
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Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
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Sigh... I has already said that sanction can backfire and can create more hatred against its initiator, and it usually hurts the populace more than the regime. Hurting the economy and the populace won't necessarily stop military buildup. It would definitely show the initiator's hostility quite clearly though, which I am amuse how you keep saying that doesn't show the fed's hostility.

Naval review: Wyatts' babbling and other conservations in 0083 shows quite well the intention of such "show of force". I doubt the earlier Naval review would have any more merciful meaning.

For most of other arguments: what you think is about as unofficial as other information from various reference works that you disregard. How much of what we talk about about events before MSG that is animated at all? Seeing how you try to dish Sentinel when others said it actually fill up plot holes in UC world is clear enough:
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12418


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Black Knight wrote:
Zeonista wrote:
I'd say it's because the bigwigs on Earth didn't live in space, and so missed out on the significance of 30 Bunch abruptly ceasing communication & interaction with its fellow Side 1 colonies, and possibly those of other Sides. This wasn't some overlooked orphan Island-1 drifiting on the fringe of a Side, it was a full-size Island-3 type acting as a home to millions of people. The Titans could put up a cover story for a while, and maybe coerce some officials to back their story. But eventually some random colonist was going to try to get back in touch, take a closer look after signaling failed to get a response, and open an access hatch upon a scene of horror.

Our modern common sense would agree with you -- but that's not what the animation shows. In the animation, we're shown three people from different walks of life and their reaction to physically visiting 30 Bunch, Kamille, Emma, and Lila. Emma was a new Titans member, so we can say that clearly word of 30 Bunch hadn't gotten to the Titans recruits yet, as she's aghast at the very idea of 30 Bunch. Kamille, however, is a spacenoid, but he had also not heard anything about 30 Bunch. And Lila is a senior serving member of the EFSF, and what does she think when she sees the Argama heading to 30 Bunch? That it's an AEUG base. She seems to have heard of the incident, but she didn't seem to know it was that particular colony, suggesting that there were indeed rumors that the Titans had gassed a colony, but not specifically which one. Rumors which can't identify the specific colony are pretty easy to ignore.

Hmm, a really nice hypothesis is done in by Tomino-sama's sample selection. I am currently having an Oliver Wendell Jones moment here. :P I do recall now that the revelation to the three characters made it a confirmation of a rumor, which could have been believed or not believed depending on the character.

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As I said before, the animation seems to imply a lesser degree of communication between colonies and Sides than we in the 20th and 21st centuries take for granted. ZZ showcases "lost" inhabited colonies, further strengthening the idea that sending messages between colonies is not as widespread as we might think.

The first Zeta movie has scenes which refer to Camille going to pro-AEUG sites to learn about information, implying that someone is putting the word out about various things. Since this is an obvious retcon (the original UC stories are definitely pre-internet) there may be an attempt by the movie writers to suggest that Camille's rebellion depends on more than a Boy-named-Sue moment. Or there maybe an attempt to fill in a gap by implying that electronic communication other than work-related issues at least approaches our current experience. Got to keep up with the times, ne?

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Zeonista wrote:
So I would not say there was no information on the Titans engaging in unlawful behavior that had made it to the public, and even to the halls of the EUG in Dakar. What the politicians might have made of it in the light of Jamitov Hymen's confident declarations to the contrary and the fear that things might have gotten out of control is open to speculation.

Yes, there seem to be rumors about what the Titans are up to within the military -- which prompts some of them to defect and form the AEUG, while others just shrug it off as either fear-mongering or unimportant. But there's no evidence to suggest that any civilians anywhere know about 30 Bunch -- and if they do, they don't seem to be telling anyone.


Fear is a great motivator for silence, as professional bully-boys like the Titans understand quite well. If the Federation has any sort of guarantee of freedom of speech/expression/assembly, the Titans don't seem to be the sort to worry about it. Or maybe they have a political loophole the size of Psycho Gundam that allows them to ignore speech that promotes "terrorism" and "insurrection". When the penalty for casually crossing a Titan is a set of bruises and an addition to the "watched list", so to speak, yeah a lot of people are going to look the other way. Actually saying or doing something to merit a deliberate intervention by the Titans, well that's just crazy! Which is a large part of why the AEUG has an uphill battle on the PR front.

The other reason that has come to mind while reading the discussion is pretty straightforward. AEUG has to constantly deny they are not a Zeon front. It's an easy smear to make against them, since the initial first suspicion that might come to mind from the typical Federation citizen is "here they go again" in regards to Zeon sympathizers. I's also damaging in its implication, since a popular uprising that called for Zeonism would be the cue for action that Delaz wanted so much. Of course a closer look at the organization would show that Zeon-connected members are the minority, and in fact contain some names of great reputation, hardly a bunch of bomb-tossing radicals! But that second, closer look is what's needed, and it can take a lot to get it. For a fun drinking game count the number of times AEUG characters say "we're not like Zeon", especially in the first 9 or so episodes. (I suppose that if AEUG had a website, their FAQ page would involve a lot of entries detailing and underlining the point. :)) I suppose by the half-point of the series AEUG has many members like Camille, who first joined AEUG for retribution and who then got to understand the official POV.

Deacon Blues: You are quite correct in your linguistic point, and I remember an earlier discussion (on Evolution?) that proved it. However, after all this time the Japlish "30 Bunch" comes more readily to mind and hand than "Colony Number 30". I do not know if this a good example for your efforts to provide first-rate translations for the community at large! :lol:

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:06 pm 
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domtropen wrote:
For most of other arguments: what you think is about as unofficial as other information from various reference works that you disregard. How much of what we talk about about events before MSG that is animated at all?


Well, you can quite clearly see the colony drop in the opening moments of both the TV series and the movies, and although there's some fuzziness in the language the opening narration does make it clear that the war Zeon started has resulted in the death of half the world's population, and then in both the TV series and the movies there's Gihren bragging about how the war has reduced the human population and made it easier for the Zabis to rule with an iron fist...

So, no, not really. All that supplemental stuff really does is fill details into the broad strokes we already know.

I'm still not sure what it is you're trying to prove here. Nobody is arguing that the Federation is some kind of Star Trek-esque utopia. Hell, the main point of defense they get in this thread and elsewhere is that they're not the faction in the Universal Century that's specifically out to kill everyone. If they weren't being compared to a faction that is specifically out to kill everyone, that would be called "damning with faint praise."


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Zeonista wrote:
The first Zeta movie has scenes which refer to Camille going to pro-AEUG sites to learn about information, implying that someone is putting the word out about various things. Since this is an obvious retcon (the original UC stories are definitely pre-internet) there may be an attempt by the movie writers to suggest that Camille's rebellion depends on more than a Boy-named-Sue moment. Or there maybe an attempt to fill in a gap by implying that electronic communication other than work-related issues at least approaches our current experience. Got to keep up with the times, ne?


Early in the TV series Kamille mentions reading about the AEUG in underground newspapers. The message is the same, only the medium is slightly changed. It's never mentioned if those newspapers are specifically printed on paper, so it very well could've been an electronic medium. Either way, not a big deal.

On another note, can we all just drop these endless debates about the relative morality of the Federation and Zeon? They always get testy, and in the end they never go anywhere. We've got two front page threads now being derailed by it, and I'm tired of it.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Elitist Earth Politician

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Chris wrote:
Zeonista wrote:
The first Zeta movie has scenes which refer to Camille going to pro-AEUG sites to learn about information, implying that someone is putting the word out about various things. Since this is an obvious retcon (the original UC stories are definitely pre-internet) there may be an attempt by the movie writers to suggest that Camille's rebellion depends on more than a Boy-named-Sue moment. Or there maybe an attempt to fill in a gap by implying that electronic communication other than work-related issues at least approaches our current experience. Got to keep up with the times, ne?


Early in the TV series Kamille mentions reading about the AEUG in underground newspapers. The message is the same, only the medium is slightly changed. It's never mentioned if those newspapers are specifically printed on paper, so it very well could've been an electronic medium. Either way, not a big deal.

Forgot that, I guess once again it comes down to whether or not the message is believed and acted on once it gets through, much like any other medium. Perhaps Camille has a standard AEUG recruit experience of hearing about AEUG and Tians, but not really caring until it happened to him. Pretty believable character progression, ne?

Quote:
On another note, can we all just drop these endless debates about the relative morality of the Federation and Zeon? They always get testy, and in the end they never go anywhere. We've got two front page threads now being derailed by it, and I'm tired of it.

Well, you can try to keep them strictly related to the topic at hand, if nothing else. Or tell everybody to go soak their heads for a bit when things seem to be getting heated. :D Still, since the end of Stardust Memory links to Zeta Gundam, be prepared for the inevitable outgrowth of discussion over what the Zeons and proto-Titans are anticipating as the result of their actions. And in the show, the conflicting ideals of both factions are clearly drawn out, not left for a young Gundam hero to discover for himself. And the results of the conflict will be borne out either way by the general public of the Inner Sphere, so yeah it does matter if either faction has good intentions, or can measure up to their bold talk.

And in Gundam anime, particularly UC Gundam anime, talk has consequences, political affiliation carries with it endorsement of a particular agenda, and acceptance (reluctant or not) of the results of said agenda. Or if the political agenda seems to hinder rather than help progression towards a stated goal, then maybe acting in "bad" ways can result in a "good" result? In this respect the franchise is more down-to-Earth (sic) than a lot of anime, and more honest and yet entertaining than a lot of Hollywood "message" movies. So, no, the inevitable discussion will go on, because like in real life, it's a debate about the ideal future of Mankind that has yet to be resolved, and what will be needed-or not-to reach that future.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:38 pm 
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ShadowCell wrote:
So, no, not really. All that supplemental stuff really does is fill details into the broad strokes we already know.

I'm still not sure what it is you're trying to prove here. Nobody is arguing that the Federation is some kind of Star Trek-esque utopia. Hell, the main point of defense they get in this thread and elsewhere is that they're not the faction in the Universal Century that's specifically out to kill everyone. If they weren't being compared to a faction that is specifically out to kill everyone, that would be called "damning with faint praise."


Sorry, I am just too lazy to type all over repeatly. I mean details about what happen before OYW and such [where someone just try to brush aside anything written that's bad about feddie]. And please do not repeat the Zeon thing over and over since I make my stand already about not being Zeon fan.

Anyway I think debating in circle is going nowhere and annoying other people, so I shall try to stop here. Sorry Chris.


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:46 pm 
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Well, all the previous arguments aside, the general consensus of the Federation "supporters" is that no one is saying one side is "good". In fact, both sides have said that both the Federation AND Zeon are pretty bad in their own ways.

The difference between them that has been brought up several times is that the Federation itself never seemed to go out of its way to massacre people for any plans like Zeon-related factions did (Operation British + the nuking/gassing of said colonies to drop them, Operation Stardust, colony drop on Dublin, dropping asteroids onto Earth, etc), thus if people had to choose between the 2, then the general populace would feel more safe with the "lesser" evil, which is the Federation, despite its own problems of corruption and being lazy/stagnant, and such.

No paradise either way, but that's just how people tend to be.

Even with their own conspiracy in using Operation Stardust to boost justification for the creation of the Titans and whatnot, despite it still succeeding with the colony hitting the Earth, the Federation didn't PLAN for the colony to hit the Earth, but destroying it with the Solar System II beforehand, thus simply highlighting the threat through the general attempt.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:48 pm 
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domtropen wrote:
I mean details about what happen before OYW and such [where someone just try to brush aside anything written that's bad about feddie]. And please do not repeat the Zeon thing over and over since I make my stand already about not being Zeon fan.

Anyway I think debating in circle is going nowhere and annoying other people, so I shall try to stop here. Sorry Chris.

Gundam's "backstory" being a choose-your-own-adventure story does allow me to provide my justification for accepting some things and ignoring others -- and I don't feel bad about this due to the fact that so many of the sourcebooks not only flatly contradict each other, but in a couple cases *cough*Gundam Officials*cough* contradict themselves.

But, yes, I think we've all aired our opinions and have begun arguing in circles, so there's no need to continue.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:31 am 
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What's interesting to note is that the Federation was rather aggressive themselves in attempting to weed out Zeon supporters during the interlude (from the end of the One Year War to the Delaz Conflict). While I'm not sure if it was the headquarters of the Federation Space Forces, but there was a garrison at Zum City. A majority of the claims they had against people were bogus, which leads me to wonder if they were padding their numbers to make it look like they were doing work when they realized how futile their efforts actually were. But, then again when they did get down and dirty, it was a "stick 'em up!" with guns drawn a la "Tell us everything you know, otherwise..."


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