Help with 0083 at the end (spoiler alert)

[domtropen]

It is more like two evils fighting each other. One kicks our ancestors out of the Earth and enslaves us, another rob and kill us, both end up drag us into their war killing lots of us. If I am a spacenoid I would be wary of both. Now after the war the fed still stockpile nukes and develop new unit to use it, and it got exposed by Zeon diehards... And all this is before 0087.

[Black Knight]

Enslaved? This isn't the Cosmic Era. The Spacenoids seem to have been shipped off Earth and left to themselves, rather than constantly enriching Earthnoids. And it certainly looks as if Spacenoids have a higher standard of living than the non-elites who are still on Earth, other than the reportedly-overpopulated Side 3 (would that be because of Zabi mismangement?)

Regardless, in 0083, the Zeons have a history of unprovoked butchery of Spacenoids, and the Federation doesn't. The worst that can be said about the Federation prior to the Titans is that the Earthnoids were pretty indifferent to the spacenoids. And later on down the pike, we'll see that the groups most likely to wipe out whole colonies are more likely to be based around Spacenoids than Earthnoids.

So the Federation has nukes. Big deal. Unlike a certain spacenoid faction, the Federation doesn't go around nuking entire colonies to kill a handful of people, or a single prototype mobile suit. (The Titans would, but that's because they learned how to be evil from the Zabis.)

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Not to mention that it was already known that the Federation had whole stockpiles of nukes at places like Torrington and Luna Two. The only time they really openly tried using nukes were the older ones used by Londo Bell smuggled to them by Cameron after he saw how the negotiations with Char went down, and those were solely used against against an empty Axis.

On the flip-side, you had Char and his forces purposely break that treaty just to break into Luna Two's stockpile to use alongside dropping Axis onto Earth and start a nuclear winter on Earth to force everyone on it to move into space. And before that, you have Haman's Neo Zeon's rumored attempt at doing the same thing in breaking into Luna Two's stockpile to get nukes for the Gigantic for widespread nuclear attacks.

So, as mentioned, Zeon is far more infamous for their more (attempted) wanton use of nuclear weapons than the Federation ever was.

Even after them, you have the Jupiter Empire's Divinidad with its arsenal of nuclear missiles too.

[domtropen]

Why bringing Char in 0093 into this discussion? Why not talk about Titans in 0087 and Unicorn in 0096 then? The whold world knows about Titans' evil deeds from Char's speech at Dakar, so eventhough the fed stops their support to Titans afterwards it is too late. From earlier discussions is is also shown that many within the fed knows well of Titans' misdeeds before Dakar too, so no excuse. And by the Unicorn time it is known that the fed robs the spacenoids' rights since the beginning of UC...

Well spacenoids are out in space by being kick out of Earth forcefully while those in power down on Earth has pretty cozy life and enjoy high status, taxing spacenoids while not giving equal rights at the same time. By the time Zeon zum Daikun begins his movement the movement for independence is intensified in other sides as well, yet the fed respond by creating EFSF and having Naval Review... instead of ever thinking about giving spacenoids their independence.

Who had ever said Jupiter Empire is good?

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I just mean in terms of nuclear weapon usage.

Even the Titans didn't go throwing around nuclear weapons at people (they just went straight for the colony drop and colony laser instead! lol). The only time they were involved with nukes was self-destructing Jaburo that I recall.

[Kratos]

And by the Unicorn time it is known that the fed robs the spacenoids' rights since the beginning of UC...

Well spacenoids are out in space by being kick out of Earth forcefully while those in power down on Earth has pretty cozy life and enjoy high status, taxing spacenoids while not giving equal rights at the same time. By the time Zeon zum Daikun begins his movement the movement for independence is intensified in other sides as well, yet the fed respond by creating EFSF and having Naval Review... instead of ever thinking about giving spacenoids their independence.

I think it's important to note that a lot of what we've heard about the colonies and their inhabitants in Unicorn has come from Full Frontal, who naturally paints the Federation as this comically evil organization of fat cat politicians on Earth. Yes, there were lasting issues with colonization, at least for some; Zeon wouldn't have seceded if there hadn't been. But to assume that all colonists were outright oppressed and "enslaved" is going a little far, especially since we actually see people living happily in colonies numerous times.

[domtropen]

Nope, this was mentioned long before Unicorn novel coming out. And living happily doesn't mean they have equal rights or having received the same treatment as elite earthnoids. In real world a few colonies and a few populations revolted against their masters despite their people able to make decent living.

[RGM-79G GM Command]

yet the fed respond by creating EFSF and having Naval Review... instead of ever thinking about giving spacenoids their independence.

Just pointing out that as was discussed in this topic, Zeon's Side 3 was already independent well before the war started, since 0058 in fact, and on top of that they were the only ones that wanted to be independent.

As for the nukes, there's really not much to indicate their use was limited after the OYW. Them not being used often doesn't mean they are illegal, that could just mean those with them do not want it to come to using them. The only time their use was deemed illegal, was during the speech Delaz made, where he claimed it was against the defunct Antarctic Treaty. That does mean we can't prove their use wasn't limited anyway, but there seems to be more to indicate that they were limited only by people choosing not to use them.

[domtropen]

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ble01.html

Read the history part. And Zeon's independence is not accepted by the fed. And the fed's response with economic sanction, setting up EFSF, rearmament, and Naval Review, is simply showing its intention too well. Any other colonies with less power won't try anything stupid easily with such examples. Also the use of wmds of any kind, legal or not, by either the fed or zeon won't look good in the eye of 3rd party such as spacenoids or lunarians.

I do not think spacenoids would have to like one evil over another evil.

[Treize Kushrenada]

The Federation was corrupt, and was shown to be incompetent time and again. But what big, democratic government isn't? There's going to be corruption and people of questionable character everywhere.

Zeon in the other hand are a dictatorship, with blatantly obvious similarities with a certain National-Socialist movement. It is Zeon who has no regards for human life, even of fellow Spacenoids. They used poison gas in entire colonies, killing everybody in them and then dropping the colonies on Earth. They were also involved in genetic engineering, cloning and such things, all in the name of creating super-soldiers (cyber-newtypes).

There's been just one side that's always trying to cause genocide via dropping things, and that is Zeon. The Federation is just trying to keep order, although it could use some restructuriing....

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Actually, it was the Titans who were first responsible for Cyber-Newtypes (basically as dogs to control rather than have real Newtypes given their Spacenoid hatred). It wasn't until Gyunei did Zeon create a Cyber-Newtype that I recall (Pie was natural, IIRC?). Zeon was the first to actually intend to use them as weapons though and cloning (Pie Two).

[mcred23]

I'm not sure if Puru was an artificial Newtype or not, or if the clones had anything done to them, but quite a few of the other figures in Haman's Neo Zeon, notably Mashymre and Chara, became artificial Newtypes later on in ZZ, so they were clearly involved in it too.

[Deacon Blues]

Regardless, in 0083, the Zeons have a history of unprovoked butchery of Spacenoids, and the Federation doesn't. The worst that can be said about the Federation prior to the Titans is that the Earthnoids were pretty indifferent to the spacenoids. And later on down the pike, we'll see that the groups most likely to wipe out whole colonies are more likely to be based around Spacenoids than Earthnoids.

It depends on your definition of "butchery". Following the One Year War, the Earth Federation Forces created an autonomous peace-keeping force to weed out remnant Zeon soldiers and squash any sympathizers along the way. Or so Char's Deleted Affair would have us believe. As Georges Miguel (Nanai's brother) notes, a vast majority of the claims these officials have are bogus.

[domtropen]

As I said earlier there is no reason for spacenoids to have to like either the fed or Zeon. Why do they have to choose in the first place? Corrupt or incompetent gov't can be bad and make itself hated by the people easily, and the fed is far worse than that. Titans is shown to be able to kill everyone in the whole colony at least twice just because they defy the gov't [and iirc attempt to kill more during Zeta], and what can they sink down to if given or taken more power?

People won't care whether or not the gov't who refuse to give them independence and do everything to make them stop trying is democratic or not.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Enslaved? This isn't the Cosmic Era. The Spacenoids seem to have been shipped off Earth and left to themselves, rather than constantly enriching Earthnoids.

"Exiled to space" is just marginally better than enslaved, especially considering that earthnoids kept all the lands of the exiled people and even had the monopoly on some resources such as mercury and platinum (check below the "Zeon Attack" heading), which are probably the "natural resources" that are constantly mention along the OYW.

Also, in 0080, when Al and his friends are eating synthetic hamburgers, it is mentioned that the war is causing that the shipments of real food are sometimes affected. While we have seen cattle being raised on the colonies, it would appear that by 0079 point Earth was even supplying food to the colonies (while the Texas colony would seem like an exception, it was mainly a recreational colony representing the old west, much like the Tiger Baum colony which represents China/Hong Kong). the cattle seen in 0087 is most likely a consuquence of the destruction of the farmlands after Operation Stardust, which would force the Earth Federation to raise cattle in the colonies instead of raising all, or almost all cattle on Earth.

And it certainly looks as if Spacenoids have a higher standard of living than the non-elites who are still on Earth, other than the reportedly-overpopulated Side 3 (would that be because of Zabi mismangement?)

The "higher standard of living" is certainly not a generalized situation. In ZZ we see slums and poor children in colonies such as Shangri-La and Tiger Baum. Furthermore, the lower living standards of non-elites is indeed the result of the Earth's Federation mismanagement, as well as the overpopulation at Side 3 in which they crammed 2 billion people into 40 colonies, in which I can only see as an experiment on their part to check the functionality of closed type colonies, which they didn't attempt to correct after wards. More on the number of colonies at the end of the post.

Regardless, in 0083, the Zeons have a history of unprovoked butchery of Spacenoids, and the Federation doesn't. The worst that can be said about the Federation prior to the Titans is that the Earthnoids were pretty indifferent to the spacenoids. And later on down the pike, we'll see that the groups most likely to wipe out whole colonies are more likely to be based around Spacenoids than Earthnoids.

Actually, it might not be entirely "unprovoked butchery": Gundam Century mentions that Side 2 was Pro-Federation, as opposed as Side 6 that was Pro-Zeon, although Pro-Federation in paper to keep its neutrality. We also know that Side 5 was where Revil's fleet was stationed, so it seems that the Sides attacked by Zeon were mainly Pro-Federation. The same source indicates that after the attacks on Sides 1, 2 and 4, Zeon was aware that the Federation had enough fighting strength to instantly reverse the tide of the war, after all they had 10 as much fighting strength.

So the Federation has nukes. Big deal. Unlike a certain spacenoid faction, the Federation doesn't go around nuking entire colonies to kill a handful of people, or a single prototype mobile suit. (The Titans would, but that's because they learned how to be evil from the Zabis.)

Actually the Federation used nukes often, especially during Operation British, where the 4th fleet was equipped with them , as well as the EFF on Earth. Also, check below the "The Zeon War" heading, which indicates that the Zaku pilots had to be trained to avoid the Federation's nuclear missiles.

As for Zeon's use of nuclear weapons, after the treaty was signed, the only time where a nuclear weapon was going to be used by Zeon, was during the attack at Libot, which was planned and carried out by a mad amn who killed his superior officer, who was against the plan. Since n the the second movie White Base didn't arrive in time for Operation Odessa, M'Quve's nuke threat is not canon.

Finally, I just want to mention that there are at least 5 sources which indicate that each Side only had around 40 colonies:

-Setting notes
-Mobile Suit Variation 1
-Gundam Official Glossary (check space colony)
-Mark's footnote
-MS Igloo: Apocalypse episode 2 (which is not only rather recent, but is also considered a canon series)

If Side 2 has around 85 colonies, it could be simply explained as the result of a large amount refugees fleeing from Sides 1, 2 and 4 during the OWW and an increasing population's need for more room after the war, in which it would be easier to move empty colonies from Side 1 and Side 4, to Side 2 rather than moving billions of spacenoids from L4 to L5. After all, the highest Bunch number for a post OYW Side 1 colony is the infamous Bunch 30, which so far could indicate a rather low number of colonies.

Although, if you know other sources that state other quantities of colonies per Side, please feel free to post them.

[Cardi Doorl]

Since n the the second movie White Base didn't arrive in time for Operation Odessa, M'Quve's nuke threat is not canon.

[...]

-MS Igloo: Apocalypse episode 2 (which is not only rather recent, but is also considered a canon series)

You really can't unilaterally declare Gundam productions canon or non-canon. It's pretty well-established that Gundam doesn't have some kind of rigidly-defined "canon" like many Western sci-fi series do. In fact, that topic has recently come up on these boards again, and I know you've been around these boards long enough to have seen the old thread that really got the conversation started.

Without going into too much detail - since we already have other threads regarding the nature of Gundam "canon" - if someone else wants to consider the events of the Gundam TV series then you really have no basis other than your own opinion to claim that the movies take precedence in the UC continuity.

The "higher standard of living" is certainly not a generalized situation. In ZZ we see slums and poor children in colonies such as Shangri-La and Tiger Baum.

I wish we'd seen more of that. Some of the dialogue in early episodes of ZZ suggest that slums, abandoned - or at least neglected - youths, and wide disparities between the rich and poor are somewhat widespread in the colonies, but we only occasionally get decent glimpses of that throughout the animated works. If that kind of imagery were more common, it'd certainly make it more understandable for Spacenoids to be sympathetic to nationalist movements like Zeon.

Instead, the few times we see daily colony life I get the impression the animators are trying to depict it as something similar to everyday modern life so that young viewers can relate to it. I guess the young Spacenoid protagonists like Amuro and Kamille (and even Al from 0080) are a bit sheltered by their well-to-do, if emotionally distant, families. Judau and friends are exceptions. Either way the picture of everyday colonial life feels a little unclear.

[Black Knight]

Enslaved? This isn't the Cosmic Era. The Spacenoids seem to have been shipped off Earth and left to themselves, rather than constantly enriching Earthnoids.

"Exiled to space" is just marginally better than enslaved, especially considering that earthnoids kept all the lands of the exiled people and even had the monopoly on some resources such as mercury and platinum (check below the "Zeon Attack" heading), which are probably the "natural resources" that are constantly mention along the OYW.

Gundam's setting notes are all well and good, but the empirical fact is that asteroids have far more platinum-group metals, and in much easier to exploit fashion, than good ol' planet Earth. How else did Zeon survive for 20 years as an industrial nation? Clearly in 0058 they didn't have sufficient stockpiles of critical raw materials to last them 20 years and build up a massive stock of war material. If Zeon is able to send ships to Jupiter for Helium-3, they've clearly got an economy able to extract necessary raw materials from asteroids -- that was probably what brought Pezun, A Baoa Qu and Solomon to Earth Orbit, after all.

Also, in 0080, when Al and his friends are eating synthetic hamburgers, it is mentioned that the war is causing that the shipments of real food are sometimes affected. While we have seen cattle being raised on the colonies, it would appear that by 0079 point Earth was even supplying food to the colonies (while the Texas colony would seem like an exception, it was mainly a recreational colony representing the old west, much like the Tiger Baum colony which represents China/Hong Kong). the cattle seen in 0087 is most likely a consuquence of the destruction of the farmlands after Operation Stardust, which would force the Earth Federation to raise cattle in the colonies instead of raising all, or almost all cattle on Earth.

All the comments in 0080 mean are that at that time Side 6 needed meat products from Earth. Was this because they were dealing with half a billion refugees? Was it because another Side had had most of the colonies given over to raising meat animals, which Zeon wiped out alongside the others? We don't really know. Not knowing, we can of course guess. I clearly conclude something different from you, and it's unlikely either of us will ever get a definitive answer.

And it certainly looks as if Spacenoids have a higher standard of living than the non-elites who are still on Earth, other than the reportedly-overpopulated Side 3 (would that be because of Zabi mismangement?)

The "higher standard of living" is certainly not a generalized situation. In ZZ we see slums and poor children in colonies such as Shangri-La and Tiger Baum. Furthermore, the lower living standards of non-elites is indeed the result of the Earth's Federation mismanagement, as well as the overpopulation at Side 3 in which they crammed 2 billion people into 40 colonies, in which I can only see as an experiment on their part to check the functionality of closed type colonies, which they didn't attempt to correct after wards. More on the number of colonies at the end of the post.

Just as the fact that not every Earthnoid is an elite of the Federation bureaucracy. Mirai & Chemin certainly see enough Earth-based slums in Zeta and CCA. Moreover, we don't know if those slums existed before the OYW, which brings up the question of who is responsible for those slums, I think.

Regardless, in 0083, the Zeons have a history of unprovoked butchery of Spacenoids, and the Federation doesn't. The worst that can be said about the Federation prior to the Titans is that the Earthnoids were pretty indifferent to the spacenoids. And later on down the pike, we'll see that the groups most likely to wipe out whole colonies are more likely to be based around Spacenoids than Earthnoids.

Actually, it might not be entirely "unprovoked butchery": Gundam Century mentions that Side 2 was Pro-Federation, as opposed as Side 6 that was Pro-Zeon, although Pro-Federation in paper to keep its neutrality. We also know that Side 5 was where Revil's fleet was stationed, so it seems that the Sides attacked by Zeon were mainly Pro-Federation. The same source indicates that after the attacks on Sides 1, 2 and 4, Zeon was aware that the Federation had enough fighting strength to instantly reverse the tide of the war, after all they had 10 as much fighting strength.

So the fact that Side 2 is quite happy with their space-based existence (or at least doesn't hate the Federation for "exiling" them, to use your term) is sufficient reason for Zeon to slaughter them for daring to have EFSF garrisons in their colonies? Interesting justification.

Actually the Federation used nukes often, especially during Operation British, where the 4th fleet was equipped with them , as well as the EFF on Earth. Also, check below the "The Zeon War" heading, which indicates that the Zaku pilots had to be trained to avoid the Federation's nuclear missiles.

Unfortunately what's missing from your attempt to counter my argument is a case of the Federation using nuclear weapons against an inhabited colony. Nor is there mention of the EFSF using nukes in that summary of Gundam Century, though I'll concede that it almost certainly did happen. Were I a spacenoid, I'd still be much more concerned about Zeons with Nukes than Feddies with Nukes, because the Federation at least has the decency to use nuclear weapons against military targets, while Zeon seems to prefer to use them against civilian population centers with a minor military presence. This isn't someone nuking Norfolk because half the US Navy is based there, it's like nuking Philadelphia because of the ship storage facility there, a terribly minor military presence.

As for Zeon's use of nuclear weapons, after the treaty was signed, the only time where a nuclear weapon was going to be used by Zeon, was during the attack at Libot, which was planned and carried out by a mad amn who killed his superior officer, who was against the plan. Since n the the second movie White Base didn't arrive in time for Operation Odessa, M'Quve's nuke threat is not canon.

The fact that Gundam Movie II doesn't deal with the nuke at Odessa doesn't mean it didn't take place. Thanks to Japan's wonderfully flexible view towards continuity, it both did and did not take place. The Movie Trilogy does not supersede the TV series events, merely offer an alternate take on them.

Finally, I just want to mention that there are at least 5 sources which indicate that each Side only had around 40 colonies:

-Setting notes
-Mobile Suit Variation 1
-Gundam Official Glossary (check space colony)
-Mark's footnote
-MS Igloo: Apocalypse episode 2 (which is not only rather recent, but is also considered a canon series)

Only one of these is animated, and it sticks with the "conventional wisdom" of the size of Sides, the 40-colony figure. My objection to this is based entirely on the dialogue of the show providing population figures which do not make the 40-colony Side possible, unless the Spacenoids are broken up into an elite able to hold only 3 million people per colony (such as 30 Bunch) while all the colonies which aren't visited on-screen are teaming with 20-50 million each. As there's no evidence of such a class-based split in the colonies (or else the Spacenoids would be bitching about other Spacenoids who are a lot nearer and more tangibly in-their-face than the distant Earthnoids), I'm left to conclude that no open-type colony had more than the ~10 million people claimed for them by Gerard O'Neill, whose students at Princeton developed the Island III.

If you're going to bring up the setting notes, by the way, you should be pointing out the fact that they cite 36 million people per colony, which would provide nearly 1.5 billion per Side, with just over 10 billion in colonies total by that figure (giving Side 3 the usual double population). This is, of course, completely unsupported by the animation's population figures.

If Side 2 has around 85 colonies, it could be simply explained as the result of a large amount refugees fleeing from Sides 1, 2 and 4 during the OWW and an increasing population's need for more room after the war, in which it would be easier to move empty colonies from Side 1 and Side 4, to Side 2 rather than moving billions of spacenoids from L4 to L5. After all, the highest Bunch number for a post OYW Side 1 colony is the infamous Bunch 30, which so far could indicate a rather low number of colonies.

Although, if you know other sources that state other quantities of colonies per Side, please feel free to post them.

Absolutely, that could explain the size of Side 2 in 0087. Agree completely. There's just no proof whatsoever. I'll once again cite the Z Gundam animation which claims Side 2 has 85 colonies as proof. After all, Mark's theory about the Sides being merged is 15 years younger than Z Gundam; there's no source which explains that such is what happened, it's a conclusion from very scanty evidence, just like so much else.

[Zeonista]

The heroic fighters of the people's struggle for independence from the corrupt bureaucrats and plutocrats of the Earth Union will inevitably succeed! Their running attack dog Titans will not be able to quell the desire of the oppressed populace to join us once we have made our position clear to them! They will cast away their restraints and join us in sweeping away the gravitic chains of our oppressors! Then we shall lead all of space-dwelling humanity into the era of the New mMan tha Zeon Zum Daikun has promised to us! Victory now, victory then, victory forever! Sieg Zeon!!

*pant, pant, pant, whew*

Now, with a rosy radical point of view like that, what' s to be made of a few proverbial omelets of side colonies inhabited by traitors and lackeys of the corrupt EUG, or a couple of colony-caused divots on the surface of beloved Earth?

Absolutely nothing, because all things heal and fade with time, the ends can justify the means if they are noble enough, the winners write the history, and the future is always brighter and better than the present. Welcome to the Revolution, comrade spacenoid. Thus for all the discussion on the sociopolitical morality of high body counts. Join Zeon, fight Zeon, sit in Von Braun and watch Zeon, but scolding militant radicals for being militant to achieve the goals they hold to with a semi-religious fervor is a waste of time and energy.

Speaking of semi-religious fervor...

The EF and Cima did not want the colony to hit the Earth. They wanted Stardust to occur up to the point that the colony was in Earth's orbit.

You see, Cima did not care about Gihren's ideals or about Zeon. She only cared about herself.

This is true. Cima Garahau's devotion to The Cause died after the fleet of exiles from Aboawaku & Zum City told her and her men to get lost. Delaz really did think he was giving her a second chance to regain her honor and hold her head high as a member of the Zeon cause. Boy did he make an error of judgement!

Bask and Jamitov saw Stardust as a huge opportunity. They wanted to form the Titans, but lacked support for it from the EF. To show them how much of a threat the spacenoids and Zeon still were, they allowed Operation Stardust to go off without a hitch.

Once they knew about it, anyway. Delaz's defiant speech with the GP-02 in evidence was fair warning, and they let it slip away in order to obtain an Incident to prove their political point, and incidentally purge the EFF officer ranks of the dissenters and deadwood. No room for alien-lovers, weak-kneed sallies, or tea-drinking has-beens in the glorious dominon of the Titans!

They did not want the colony to actually hit the planet, however. That would be taking it too far. The mere threat of a colony drop was enough. This was why the Solar System II was placed in Earth's orbit to shoot it down. However, Cima failed to suppress Anaval Gato, who went on to damage the Solar System II, reducing its firepower, and rendering it unable to destroy the colony.

Oops, forgot to put a contingency plan in there! Jamitov Hymen was confident though, since he and General Marnery stayed in Jaburo, which was the presumed target. The decision to have the colony strike a sparsely populated area seems to have been a private aim of Delaz and Gato, unknown to anyone else. Otherwise Cima wouldn't have been in a hurry to get Delaz before the colony hit the point of No Return.

The colony drop occurred but their goal of creating fear and unrest was successful. The Titans were born because of it.

Of course, the effrontery of actually staging a colony drop likely would cause a political backlash, but Delaz didn't mind at all. The Titans would become the force of Reaction that the Revolution needed to give it momentum again. Skulking about in abandoned colonies and remote bases wins no wars, ne? The Titans saw Zeon supporters in every shadow, stirred up the Side Colonies, which created an uprising and enough unrest to allow the Axis force to return unhindered to the Inner Sphere. If Char Aznable had remained loyal to Axis, or Haman-sama been a cagier politician, then Operation Stardust would have been a successful gambit for the cause of Zeon.

[domtropen]

How official is the various published backstories then? Would real world theories and discoveries supplant the backstories?

[zerogradius]

How official is the various published backstories then? Would real world theories and discoveries supplant the backstories?

Anything not animated is not official, though there is nothing stopping you from appreciating them for yourself.

Once they knew about it, anyway. Delaz's defiant speech with the GP-02 in evidence was fair warning, and they let it slip away in order to obtain an Incident to prove their political point, and incidentally purge the EFF officer ranks of the dissenters and deadwood. No room for alien-lovers, weak-kneed sallies, or tea-drinking has-beens in the glorious dominon of the Titans!

I believe that Bask and Jamitov knew about Stardust before the GP02A was taken. I believe that Cima had knowledge of the plan before the theft, and she passed that info to Bask and Om. Infact, it could be assumed that the arming of the GP02A and the lax security around it was deliberate, all planned by Bask and Om.