Regarding resources, I'm sure I heard somewhere that during the period where the Federation established economic sanctions on Side 3, they were obtaining essential resources throguh back dealings with Side 6, which is one of the reasons Zeon helped Side 6 in U.C. 0077 to defeat the Federation garrison, which allowed side 6 to obtain their "independence", or at least in the extent it was possible given the circumstances. That's also why Zeon didn't attack Side 6, who remained allied with them under the table.Black Knight wrote:Gundam's setting notes are all well and good, but the empirical fact is that asteroids have far more platinum-group metals, and in much easier to exploit fashion, than good ol' planet Earth. How else did Zeon survive for 20 years as an industrial nation? Clearly in 0058 they didn't have sufficient stockpiles of critical raw materials to last them 20 years and build up a massive stock of war material. If Zeon is able to send ships to Jupiter for Helium-3, they've clearly got an economy able to extract necessary raw materials from asteroids -- that was probably what brought Pezun, A Baoa Qu and Solomon to Earth Orbit, after all.
Also, Zeon didn't own the Jovian Energy Fleet. In fact, IIRC one of the points of the Antartic Treaty is the recognition of the neutrality of this group.
On the other hand, the origins of Zeon asteroids fortresses are unclear. While there are mentions of Juno/Luna II as early as U.C. 0045, the first mention of Solomon is during January U.C. 0079, when Dozle forces depart from there towards Side 5. However, Mark's timeline indicates that Solomon isn't completed until May that year and on June Zeon's defense line consisting on Solomon, Granada and A Baoa Qu is finally completed. As for Pezun, dyarstraights indicates that its construction doesn't begin until November, however it says that it's built on L4 rather than L2, conflciting with its supposed location on the rear of Side 3. Ironically, the first mentioned Zeon asteroid is Axis on U.C. 0072.
So, what can we figure out from this: Solomon was probably on L5 from the beginning and was occupied by Zeon during the initial days of the war, but its conversion into a fortress wasn't completed until May. We know that Granada was the first place to be occupied by Zeon, even before Gihren's war declaration, so A Baoa Qu must have been the fortress that was finished on June which completed Side 3's defense line. This would leave plenty of time for A Baoa Qu to be moved from wherever it was to Side 3, if not already there.
I think I found something about that, check under Neutral Zone Side 6. The last part says:Black Knight wrote:All the comments in 0080 mean are that at that time Side 6 needed meat products from Earth. Was this because they were dealing with half a billion refugees? Was it because another Side had had most of the colonies given over to raising meat animals, which Zeon wiped out alongside the others? We don't really know. Not knowing, we can of course guess. I clearly conclude something different from you, and it's unlikely either of us will ever get a definitive answer.
After Operation British it even found itself exporting farm produce to the Federation, which had lost much of its arable land.
Just as you say, we don't know since when those slums began existing, what we do know is that 7 years (Zeta) and 13 years (CCA) after the OYW and Zeon's occupation ended (if it happened on those locations) there are still slums at those locations, even though that by U.C.0093, the Federation's capital is located at Tibet. So, the situation of things before Luna 5 crashed on Tibet is the Federation's fault. So is the situation at Tigerbaum: Side 3 had just been given to Haman at that time (though it seems they actually only received Core 3), but the ruler of Tiger Baum seems to have been there for a long time, which means he one of the appointed officials of the Side 3 government, which at that time was still under the control of the Federation. Same goes for that greedy major Shangri La who allowed the colony to become a junkyard.Black Knight wrote:Just as the fact that not every Earthnoid is an elite of the Federation bureaucracy. Mirai & Chemin certainly see enough Earth-based slums in Zeta and CCA. Moreover, we don't know if those slums existed before the OYW, which brings up the question of who is responsible for those slums, I think.
No, but the destruction of the Federation garrisons at Side 1, 2 and 4, which along with the 4th fleet losses resulted in the reduction of the Federation's Fleet from 10 times as large as the Zeon's to only 4 times as large, probably does, which is most likely how Gihren sold the idea to his soldiers. Don't get me wrong, I do find it moraly wrong, but from a military point of view it was probably the most logical course of action.Black Knight wrote:So the fact that Side 2 is quite happy with their space-based existence (or at least doesn't hate the Federation for "exiling" them, to use your term) is sufficient reason for Zeon to slaughter them for daring to have EFSF garrisons in their colonies? Interesting justification.
Bunch 30's population of only 3 million post OYW is not unthinkable. Even if as you claimed earlier, the refugees took shelter on Side 6 after the One Week War (Let's says that out of 3 billion, 0.2 billion survived according to the casualties indicated on Mark's footnotes), that population of at least 1.2 billion people would have been divided between the remaining colonies of Sides 1, 2, 4 and 6 (which should have all its abut 40 colonies intact). Even in a worse case scenario where Side 2's bunch 85 and Side 1's bunch 30 are the largest numbered bunches, that would leave 115 colonies, which would give us an average of almost 10 million, which is the figure you do find logical. We don't know Bunch 3's purpose, but if it was a rural colony or resort colony, it would explain why it has such a low population. The little we see of Bunch include some canyons seen beyond a small city, which has wood buildings and a saloon, so maybe it do was a resort colony just like the Texas Colony.Black Knight wrote:Only one of these is animated, and it sticks with the "conventional wisdom" of the size of Sides, the 40-colony figure. My objection to this is based entirely on the dialogue of the show providing population figures which do not make the 40-colony Side possible, unless the Spacenoids are broken up into an elite able to hold only 3 million people per colony (such as 30 Bunch) while all the colonies which aren't visited on-screen are teaming with 20-50 million each. As there's no evidence of such a class-based split in the colonies (or else the Spacenoids would be bitching about other Spacenoids who are a lot nearer and more tangibly in-their-face than the distant Earthnoids), I'm left to conclude that no open-type colony had more than the ~10 million people claimed for them by Gerard O'Neill, whose students at Princeton developed the Island III.
I do should point out that the Setting notes don't specify colony types and 36 million is the figure given by dyarstaights as the population of closed type colonies on the article regarding that type of colony.Black Knight wrote:If you're going to bring up the setting notes, by the way, you should be pointing out the fact that they cite 36 million people per colony, which would provide nearly 1.5 billion per Side, with just over 10 billion in colonies total by that figure (giving Side 3 the usual double population). This is, of course, completely unsupported by the animation's population figures.
Indeed it's something we can't prove and claim as the only truth or something, especially with what little we are given, but since we do have evidence about the 40 colonies per Side and what we are shown on Zeta, it does give it some more weight than other theories.Black Knight wrote:Absolutely, that could explain the size of Side 2 in 0087. Agree completely. There's just no proof whatsoever. I'll once again cite the Z Gundam animation which claims Side 2 has 85 colonies as proof. After all, Mark's theory about the Sides being merged is 15 years younger than Z Gundam; there's no source which explains that such is what happened, it's a conclusion from very scanty evidence, just like so much else.
At least until we are given definite official explanation regarding the matter, it does give us good and more widely accepted baseline for speculating using the official information we do have on the topic. Even then, you are very welcome to give your own version about it even if does contradict mine and other theories.
Moving back to the original topic:
And don't forget good old admiral Wyatt who tried to meet directly with Cima. Do we know what ranks did Jamitov and Bask Om U.C. 0083? During Zeta they were an Admiral and Captain respectively, but did they have the same ranks at the time of Operation Stardust? Maybe Wyatt was the mastermind behind it all, until his plan backfired due to the Albion's intervention.zerogradius wrote:I believe that Bask and Jamitov knew about Stardust before the GP02A was taken. I believe that Cima had knowledge of the plan before the theft, and she passed that info to Bask and Om. Infact, it could be assumed that the arming of the GP02A and the lax security around it was deliberate, all planned by Bask and Om.