Help with 0083 at the end (spoiler alert)

[Gelgoog Jager]

Gundam's setting notes are all well and good, but the empirical fact is that asteroids have far more platinum-group metals, and in much easier to exploit fashion, than good ol' planet Earth. How else did Zeon survive for 20 years as an industrial nation? Clearly in 0058 they didn't have sufficient stockpiles of critical raw materials to last them 20 years and build up a massive stock of war material. If Zeon is able to send ships to Jupiter for Helium-3, they've clearly got an economy able to extract necessary raw materials from asteroids -- that was probably what brought Pezun, A Baoa Qu and Solomon to Earth Orbit, after all.

Regarding resources, I'm sure I heard somewhere that during the period where the Federation established economic sanctions on Side 3, they were obtaining essential resources throguh back dealings with Side 6, which is one of the reasons Zeon helped Side 6 in U.C. 0077 to defeat the Federation garrison, which allowed side 6 to obtain their "independence", or at least in the extent it was possible given the circumstances. That's also why Zeon didn't attack Side 6, who remained allied with them under the table.

Also, Zeon didn't own the Jovian Energy Fleet. In fact, IIRC one of the points of the Antartic Treaty is the recognition of the neutrality of this group.

On the other hand, the origins of Zeon asteroids fortresses are unclear. While there are mentions of Juno/Luna II as early as U.C. 0045, the first mention of Solomon is during January U.C. 0079, when Dozle forces depart from there towards Side 5. However, Mark's timeline indicates that Solomon isn't completed until May that year and on June Zeon's defense line consisting on Solomon, Granada and A Baoa Qu is finally completed. As for Pezun, dyarstraights indicates that its construction doesn't begin until November, however it says that it's built on L4 rather than L2, conflciting with its supposed location on the rear of Side 3. Ironically, the first mentioned Zeon asteroid is Axis on U.C. 0072.

So, what can we figure out from this: Solomon was probably on L5 from the beginning and was occupied by Zeon during the initial days of the war, but its conversion into a fortress wasn't completed until May. We know that Granada was the first place to be occupied by Zeon, even before Gihren's war declaration, so A Baoa Qu must have been the fortress that was finished on June which completed Side 3's defense line. This would leave plenty of time for A Baoa Qu to be moved from wherever it was to Side 3, if not already there.

All the comments in 0080 mean are that at that time Side 6 needed meat products from Earth. Was this because they were dealing with half a billion refugees? Was it because another Side had had most of the colonies given over to raising meat animals, which Zeon wiped out alongside the others? We don't really know. Not knowing, we can of course guess. I clearly conclude something different from you, and it's unlikely either of us will ever get a definitive answer.

I think I found something about that, check under Neutral Zone Side 6. The last part says:

After Operation British it even found itself exporting farm produce to the Federation, which had lost much of its arable land.

Just as the fact that not every Earthnoid is an elite of the Federation bureaucracy. Mirai & Chemin certainly see enough Earth-based slums in Zeta and CCA. Moreover, we don't know if those slums existed before the OYW, which brings up the question of who is responsible for those slums, I think.

Just as you say, we don't know since when those slums began existing, what we do know is that 7 years (Zeta) and 13 years (CCA) after the OYW and Zeon's occupation ended (if it happened on those locations) there are still slums at those locations, even though that by U.C.0093, the Federation's capital is located at Tibet. So, the situation of things before Luna 5 crashed on Tibet is the Federation's fault. So is the situation at Tigerbaum: Side 3 had just been given to Haman at that time (though it seems they actually only received Core 3), but the ruler of Tiger Baum seems to have been there for a long time, which means he one of the appointed officials of the Side 3 government, which at that time was still under the control of the Federation. Same goes for that greedy major Shangri La who allowed the colony to become a junkyard.

So the fact that Side 2 is quite happy with their space-based existence (or at least doesn't hate the Federation for "exiling" them, to use your term) is sufficient reason for Zeon to slaughter them for daring to have EFSF garrisons in their colonies? Interesting justification.

No, but the destruction of the Federation garrisons at Side 1, 2 and 4, which along with the 4th fleet losses resulted in the reduction of the Federation's Fleet from 10 times as large as the Zeon's to only 4 times as large, probably does, which is most likely how Gihren sold the idea to his soldiers. Don't get me wrong, I do find it moraly wrong, but from a military point of view it was probably the most logical course of action.

Only one of these is animated, and it sticks with the "conventional wisdom" of the size of Sides, the 40-colony figure. My objection to this is based entirely on the dialogue of the show providing population figures which do not make the 40-colony Side possible, unless the Spacenoids are broken up into an elite able to hold only 3 million people per colony (such as 30 Bunch) while all the colonies which aren't visited on-screen are teaming with 20-50 million each. As there's no evidence of such a class-based split in the colonies (or else the Spacenoids would be bitching about other Spacenoids who are a lot nearer and more tangibly in-their-face than the distant Earthnoids), I'm left to conclude that no open-type colony had more than the ~10 million people claimed for them by Gerard O'Neill, whose students at Princeton developed the Island III.

Bunch 30's population of only 3 million post OYW is not unthinkable. Even if as you claimed earlier, the refugees took shelter on Side 6 after the One Week War (Let's says that out of 3 billion, 0.2 billion survived according to the casualties indicated on Mark's footnotes), that population of at least 1.2 billion people would have been divided between the remaining colonies of Sides 1, 2, 4 and 6 (which should have all its abut 40 colonies intact). Even in a worse case scenario where Side 2's bunch 85 and Side 1's bunch 30 are the largest numbered bunches, that would leave 115 colonies, which would give us an average of almost 10 million, which is the figure you do find logical. We don't know Bunch 3's purpose, but if it was a rural colony or resort colony, it would explain why it has such a low population. The little we see of Bunch include some canyons seen beyond a small city, which has wood buildings and a saloon, so maybe it do was a resort colony just like the Texas Colony.

If you're going to bring up the setting notes, by the way, you should be pointing out the fact that they cite 36 million people per colony, which would provide nearly 1.5 billion per Side, with just over 10 billion in colonies total by that figure (giving Side 3 the usual double population). This is, of course, completely unsupported by the animation's population figures.

I do should point out that the Setting notes don't specify colony types and 36 million is the figure given by dyarstaights as the population of closed type colonies on the article regarding that type of colony.

Absolutely, that could explain the size of Side 2 in 0087. Agree completely. There's just no proof whatsoever. I'll once again cite the Z Gundam animation which claims Side 2 has 85 colonies as proof. After all, Mark's theory about the Sides being merged is 15 years younger than Z Gundam; there's no source which explains that such is what happened, it's a conclusion from very scanty evidence, just like so much else.

Indeed it's something we can't prove and claim as the only truth or something, especially with what little we are given, but since we do have evidence about the 40 colonies per Side and what we are shown on Zeta, it does give it some more weight than other theories.

At least until we are given definite official explanation regarding the matter, it does give us good and more widely accepted baseline for speculating using the official information we do have on the topic. Even then, you are very welcome to give your own version about it even if does contradict mine and other theories.

Moving back to the original topic:

I believe that Bask and Jamitov knew about Stardust before the GP02A was taken. I believe that Cima had knowledge of the plan before the theft, and she passed that info to Bask and Om. Infact, it could be assumed that the arming of the GP02A and the lax security around it was deliberate, all planned by Bask and Om.

And don't forget good old admiral Wyatt who tried to meet directly with Cima. Do we know what ranks did Jamitov and Bask Om U.C. 0083? During Zeta they were an Admiral and Captain respectively, but did they have the same ranks at the time of Operation Stardust? Maybe Wyatt was the mastermind behind it all, until his plan backfired due to the Albion's intervention.

[Kratos]

Just as you say, we don't know since when those slums began existing, what we do know is that 7 years (Zeta) and 13 years (CCA) after the OYW and Zeon's occupation ended (if it happened on those locations) there are still slums at those locations, even though that by U.C.0093, the Federation's capital is located at Tibet. So, the situation of things before Luna 5 crashed on Tibet is the Federation's fault.

Except the slums there existed before the Federation's use of it as a capital, so their existence CAN'T be the Federation's fault. Besides, even the government capital cities of the largest of our current governments still have slums, after all; they aren't shiny and new and poverty-free utopias. Would you say such economic ghettos are the "fault" of those governments?

[domtropen]

We do not know when colony slums were settled, but it had to be after colonies were occupied by settlers forced into it by the fed. The fed gov't had been around with colonies under its thumb since the beginning of UC. And yes the presence of slums is partly the fault and the dark side of every gov't and society in charged of the area.

Well the presence of colony slums in animated works does show that life in colonies is not all rosy...

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

No, but the destruction of the Federation garrisons at Side 1, 2 and 4, which along with the 4th fleet losses resulted in the reduction of the Federation's Fleet from 10 times as large as the Zeon's to only 4 times as large, probably does, which is most likely how Gihren sold the idea to his soldiers. Don't get me wrong, I do find it moraly wrong, but from a military point of view it was probably the most logical course of action.

The problem with this line of thought is that Zeon had to destroy the garrisons in order to gas the colonies. Zeta shows what happens to people who try to gas colonies while under fire. There was little military purpose in the mass murder of the One Week Battle, because all of the military action was accomplished as a prelude to the gas attacks, not as a result of them.

[domtropen]

Not always since in 08th MS team it is shown that an MS equipped with gas cartridges like even Zaku I can break in and fire its cartridges during the battle. The result is very violent/horrified though since IIRC it was discussed earlier either here or former forums that the gas used in this case may be quick-acting one that cause bleeding, pain and such.

[Imperial]

Even so, what are the infantry stationed inside the colony going to do about the battle raging outside of its confines?

If Zakus are "boarding" the colony, the soldiers will have scrambled by the time the Zaku delivers its payload, whether that means boarding their battleships or simply suiting up in the normal suits that would keep them from being affected by the gas. Even if the colony is still considered a military target, the gas attack won't actually be killing any military personnel.

The entire Zeonic One Week War strategy was an exercise in barbarism. There are no two ways about it.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

It's also worth noting that the scene from 08th MS Team you're referencing was also a nightmare that Shiro was having -- I don't think we can consider it as accurate as a proper flashback.

[Black Knight]

Also, Zeon didn't own the Jovian Energy Fleet. In fact, IIRC one of the points of the Antartic Treaty [sic] is the recognition of the neutrality of this group.

Don't need the Jupiter Energy Fleet to mine asteroids, but rather Helium-3. But Zeon's Axis shows that, yes, they had access to the main asteroid belts and not just the scads of NEO asteriods.

On the other hand, the origins of Zeon asteroids fortresses are unclear. While there are mentions of Juno/Luna II as early as U.C. 0045, the first mention of Solomon is during January U.C. 0079, when Dozle forces depart from there towards Side 5. However, Mark's timeline indicates that Solomon isn't completed until May that year and on June Zeon's defense line consisting on Solomon, Granada and A Baoa Qu is finally completed. As for Pezun, dyarstraights indicates that its construction doesn't begin until November, however it says that it's built on L4 rather than L2, conflciting [sic] with its supposed location on the rear of Side 3. Ironically, the first mentioned Zeon asteroid is Axis on U.C. 0072.

Most of those dates are for the commencement dates for military construction. What were the asteroids doing in Earth Orbit if not as resource mines? That's why Luna II was originally brought to the Earth Sphere, and it's a fairly safe bet that the other asteroids were, too. Conveniently, this would explain why they have large cavernous areas in their interiors suitable for converting to military spaces.

So, what can we figure out from this: Solomon was probably on L5 from the beginning and was occupied by Zeon during the initial days of the war, but its conversion into a fortress wasn't completed until May. We know that Granada was the first place to be occupied by Zeon, even before Gihren's war declaration, so A Baoa Qu must have been the fortress that was finished on June which completed Side 3's defense line. This would leave plenty of time for A Baoa Qu to be moved from wherever it was to Side 3, if not already there.

Well, Granada, as a lunar city, was essentially neutral already; that's why a fair portion of the Mobile Suit development projects could be conducted there. Then the Zeons formally seized it and integrated it into their defense structure (though Reccoa's flashbacks indicate not all was peace and serenity on the moon during the OYW).

I think I found something about that, check under Neutral Zone Side 6. The last part says:

After Operation British it even found itself exporting farm produce to the Federation, which had lost much of its arable land.

Well, if this relates to foodstuffs in general then it flies in the face of animated 0080, and is therefore suspect. If we interpret it strictly as "crops" (not meat products) then it can coexist easily with 0080. But then it wouldn't tell us anything about the bitching about food shipments from Earth being late in 0080, because Gundam Century is saying Side 6 is a food exporter, while the kids in 0080 complain about food imports being late.

Just as the fact that not every Earthnoid is an elite of the Federation bureaucracy. Mirai & Chemin certainly see enough Earth-based slums in Zeta and CCA. Moreover, we don't know if those slums existed before the OYW, which brings up the question of who is responsible for those slums, I think.

Just as you say, we don't know since when those slums began existing, what we do know is that 7 years (Zeta) and 13 years (CCA) after the OYW and Zeon's occupation ended (if it happened on those locations) there are still slums at those locations, even though that by U.C.0093, the Federation's capital is located at Tibet. So, the situation of things before Luna 5 crashed on Tibet is the Federation's fault. So is the situation at Tigerbaum: Side 3 had just been given to Haman at that time (though it seems they actually only received Core 3), but the ruler of Tiger Baum seems to have been there for a long time, which means he one of the appointed officials of the Side 3 government, which at that time was still under the control of the Federation. Same goes for that greedy major Shangri La who allowed the colony to become a junkyard.

Side 3 was not controlled by the Federation after the OYW. So anyone appointed to rule a colony in Side 3 (assuming he wasn't democratically elected) would be an appointee of the Republic of Zeon, not the Earth Federation. Don't go blaming crappy Side 3 politicians on the Federation!

More to the point I was making, there are plenty of historical cases of economic hardship that are hard to lay at the feet of the government trying to clean them up. Food rationing from WWII in the United Kingdom didn't end until 1954; was this the fault of the various British governments, or of Hitler, who didn't believe the British war ultimatum? It's a sticky moral question, no matter which side you argue, which is my point. Nothing is clear-cut when talking about the devastation following a war, and said devastation can last long after the war is over.

So the fact that Side 2 is quite happy with their space-based existence (or at least doesn't hate the Federation for "exiling" them, to use your term) is sufficient reason for Zeon to slaughter them for daring to have EFSF garrisons in their colonies? Interesting justification.

No, but the destruction of the Federation garrisons at Side 1, 2 and 4, which along with the 4th fleet losses resulted in the reduction of the Federation's Fleet from 10 times as large as the Zeon's to only 4 times as large, probably does, which is most likely how Gihren sold the idea to his soldiers. Don't get me wrong, I do find it moraly wrong, but from a military point of view it was probably the most logical course of action.

Except that the fleets, according to most of the text sources you constantly mention for other points, were based almost entirely at Luna II -- Revil's fleet at Side 5 being the sole exception. The garrison forces in the colonies were, according to the org charts, infantry-type forces (like those seen inside Side 7 when on Slender Denim Gene's raid in MSG) suited to crowd-control rather than ship-to-ship warfare. The garrison forces were inconvenient, but not a threat. But sufficient grounds to gas entire colonies, at least for the Zeon high command.

Bunch 30's population of only 3 million post OYW is not unthinkable. Even if as you claimed earlier, the refugees took shelter on Side 6 after the One Week War (Let's says that out of 3 billion, 0.2 billion survived according to the casualties indicated on Mark's footnotes), that population of at least 1.2 billion people would have been divided between the remaining colonies of Sides 1, 2, 4 and 6 (which should have all its abut 40 colonies intact). Even in a worse case scenario where Side 2's bunch 85 and Side 1's bunch 30 are the largest numbered bunches, that would leave 115 colonies, which would give us an average of almost 10 million, which is the figure you do find logical. We don't know Bunch 3's purpose, but if it was a rural colony or resort colony, it would explain why it has such a low population. The little we see of Bunch include some canyons seen beyond a small city, which has wood buildings and a saloon, so maybe it do was a resort colony just like the Texas Colony.

The population figures from the print sources (including the setting notes) are essentially impossible to reconcile with what's depicted in the animation (starting with Movie II & Movie III claiming that "half of humanity" lives in space, rather than the ~80% claimed in the Setting Notes timeline). I've been over these figures several times before, and since DS didn't leave Gundam Evolution open for browsing, I can't link you to prior discussions. I can, however, email you a link to an in-depth attempt to reconcile the figures Mark produced due to BFK's prodding back in August '08. Just PM me an email address where I can send the HTML file. And this goes for anyone interested.

At least until we are given definite official explanation regarding the matter, it does give us good and more widely accepted baseline for speculating using the official information we do have on the topic. Even then, you are very welcome to give your own version about it even if does contradict mine and other theories.

Well, according to Sunrise, the only "official" information is what's animated, which means that Side 2 in 0087 had up to 85 colonies while Side 4 had 27; Side 1 had 30 in 0085. Which brings our total colonies up to ~142, not 115. If only 40 colonies came from Side 6, then we have 102 colonies to claim as survivors from the other four Sides, unless Side 5 was truly wiped out as claimed in all the sources (though Igloo's interpretation of the battle seems to indicate all the colonies surviving; they certainly weren't caught in the crossfire as previously claimed, but also seems to be the "official" Sunrise take on the fight).

All the books & other information are only "official" if Sunrise references them in the animation afterwords, for everything else, it's whatever the individual fan chooses to believe. I think Mark said it best a number of years ago:

So are we just left to choose which we believe more?

Yep, pretty much. That's true of many aspects of the Gundam back story, and even - when one compares the movie compilations to the TV series, for instance - of the animated stories themselves.

-- Mark

YMMV.

I believe that Bask and Jamitov knew about Stardust before the GP02A was taken. I believe that Cima had knowledge of the plan before the theft, and she passed that info to Bask and Om. Infact, it could be assumed that the arming of the GP02A and the lax security around it was deliberate, all planned by Bask and Om.

And don't forget good old admiral Wyatt who tried to meet directly with Cima. Do we know what ranks did Jamitov and Bask Om U.C. 0083? During Zeta they were an Admiral and Captain respectively, but did they have the same ranks at the time of Operation Stardust? Maybe Wyatt was the mastermind behind it all, until his plan backfired due to the Albion's intervention.

They're an Admiral and Captain in 0083, too. Well, Jamitov is only a Commodore, but close enough.

There's nothing in the animation to support the idea that Jamitov & Bask knew what Stardust was, or they'd probably have had the Solar System II fully set-up when the colony arrived. Wyatt, meanwhile, clearly had no clue as to the details of Stardust, based on his "This is Stardust?" exclamation right before he's nuked. Not to mention that if he had any inkling of what Stardust really was, Cima wouldn't have been handing him a briefcase of documents describing it.

You can, of course, believe that they knew all about it. I've seen people tongue-in-cheek claim that the GP-02A was built solely for Gato to steal, which if accepted at face value would certainly imply the sort of collusion people are always stretching to find from Jamitov in particular and the Federation in general.

[domtropen]

On the other hand we can't confirm his nightmare is just dilusion either. Also do we know how many troops [infantry/guard/police/etc.] and weapons/vehicles were used to protect/pin down the colony inside?

Side 3 was not controlled by the Federation after the OYW. So anyone appointed to rule a colony in Side 3 (assuming he wasn't democratically elected) would be an appointee of the Republic of Zeon, not the Earth Federation. Don't go blaming crappy Side 3 politicians on the Federation!

Yet the fed purges Zabi loyalists from Side 3, and can TURN OVER Side 3 to Neo Zeon in ZZ, and plan for Side 3 to give up its Sovereignty in 0099...

[Black Knight]

I always interpreted the Federation "handing over" Side 3 as telling Haman that if she doesn't attack Earth any more, the Federation would ignore her attempts to take over Side 3. But Side 3 is clearly independent of the Federation following the OYW.

Whenever a government changes, appointees are almost always purged. See: De-Nazification and De-Ba'athification for two examples. But while both of those happened while the countries were occupied, there's no evidence of any sort of occupation of Side 3 following the OYW. And the Granada Accords ending the OYW are signed between two sovereign nations. Why the Republic went under and was brought back into the Federation is another story, and rather beyond the scope of this topic.

[domtropen]

In ZZ it seems that for Bright, Judau and others it is clear that the fed gives Side 3 to Haman [maybe someone here can translate actual words?]. If one nation can have that much influence over another "independent" nation and the gov't of that "independent" nation allows such takeover to happen without doing anything then that "independent" nation's gov't is nothing but a puppet, and such "independent" nation is just independent in name only. And the nation with such influence cannot be view as a "goodguy" nation.

Forget to mention that after OYW Zeon's force got restricted by the fed as well with pretty much no newer MS development while the fed makes so many now MSs and rearms itself freely.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

And the nation with such influence cannot be view as a "goodguy" nation.

So, wait, exerting influence over another nation in order to prevent them from massacring a large fraction of humanity (again!) makes you a bad guy now?

Really, though, placing restrictions on weapons development and standing armies and the like is pretty standard practice for losing nations in major wars. See post-WWI Germany and post-WWII Japan, for obvious examples. (Nevermind the fact that interbellum Germany flagrantly ignored the Treaty of Versailles and rearmed anyway.)

[domtropen]

Yeah right and make fertile ground for Hitler in the process.

And making weapons like colony laser and trying to ramake the big fleet to keep the status of colony master is consider 'goodguy"?

This is coming in circle now. Again the evil is evil, greater or lesser are still both evil. There is no need to like either executioner or slavemaster.

[Imperial]

Yeah right and make fertile ground for Hitler in the process.

And making weapons like colony laser and trying to ramake the big fleet to keep the status of colony master is consider 'goodguy"?

Titans =/= The Federation as a whole

The Federation may be corrupt and incompetent, but the Titans are the first and last Federation-assosicated movement to display that level of brutality. Of course, that doesn't give the Federation a pass. On the contrary, they should be ashamed of themselves.

However, in a setting where the other guys are a bunch of terrorists longing for the "good old days" of a nutty fascist family ruling over them like demigods, the Federation comes out looking pretty nice.

The Federation is hardly the cure for what ails the Universal Century (heck, they're half the problem), but none of the alternatives hold any water.

[domtropen]

Why choosing those alternatives then? The fed itself should grant independence to all colonies by 0050s. They don't, and do everything not to make it happen.

BTW I forget Titans does try to drop a colony on Von Braun, does it?

A question: in Unicorn who, apart from Martha, are ordering the firing of colony laser, and is this colony laser the same one in Z or new one?

[Zeonista]

More to the point I was making, there are plenty of historical cases of economic hardship that are hard to lay at the feet of the government trying to clean them up. Food rationing from WWII in the United Kingdom didn't end until 1954; was this the fault of the various British governments, or of Hitler, who didn't believe the British war ultimatum? It's a sticky moral question, no matter which side you argue, which is my point. Nothing is clear-cut when talking about the devastation following a war, and said devastation can last long after the war is over.

This is true, and economic hardship can have an impact on people's desires to improve their lives to any extent. Which is why the UC is beset by radical political movements, and why the Zeon Remnants don't automatically pack it in after the OYW. There is an undertone of popular dissatisfaction in the Universal Century, and it is fuel for everyone claiming they can promise a better future than the EUG. The Titans understand the dissent as grounds for pro-independence movements, but they use harsh measures instead of recommending the EUG clean up its act and give assistance to the space-dwellers, or at least clear some red tape out of the way of recovery. But no, they'd rather not...which leads us back to why Delaz bothers with Operation Stardust in the first place.

So the fact that Side 2 is quite happy with their space-based existence (or at least doesn't hate the Federation for "exiling" them, to use your term) is sufficient reason for Zeon to slaughter them for daring to have EFSF garrisons in their colonies? Interesting justification.

No, but the destruction of the Federation garrisons at Side 1, 2 and 4, which along with the 4th fleet losses resulted in the reduction of the Federation's Fleet from 10 times as large as the Zeon's to only 4 times as large, probably does, which is most likely how Gihren sold the idea to his soldiers. Don't get me wrong, I do find it moraly wrong, but from a military point of view it was probably the most logical course of action.

Except that the fleets, according to most of the text sources you constantly mention for other points, were based almost entirely at Luna II -- Revil's fleet at Side 5 being the sole exception. The garrison forces in the colonies were, according to the org charts, infantry-type forces (like those seen inside Side 7 when on Slender Denim Gene's raid in MSG) suited to crowd-control rather than ship-to-ship warfare. The garrison forces were inconvenient, but not a threat. But sufficient grounds to gas entire colonies, at least for the Zeon high command.

The reason why the Side forces were targeted were precisely because they allowed control of the Sides. EFSF battle fleets could use the bases as friendly ports, moving forward with a secure line of logistics and communication to pin the ZMF inside Side 3. I'm sure the EFSF admirals were prepared for such an encounter. Gihren Zabi decided to grab the strategic initiative from them in one fell swoop. I am reluctant to posit the EFF colony forces as being only non-mobile forces. Space fighters, shuttles, and ships would have been needed, if only to carry out "coast guard" duties, and prevent the ZMF from casually taking over a Side in advance of the arrival of the battle fleets.So the EFSF could afford to let a Side become a battlefield, as long as their big fleets had the time and support to move up and show the Zeeks who was the big boss. They were not ready for a sudden attack aimed at rendering their control of all the Sides useless and putting them on the strategic defensive! That did involve a lot of the aforementioned colony omelets, but then that's the fate of revolutions that let number-crunching fanatics with lack of bourgeois constraints make the plans.

There's nothing in the animation to support the idea that Jamitov & Bask knew what Stardust was, or they'd probably have had the Solar System II fully set-up when the colony arrived. Wyatt, meanwhile, clearly had no clue as to the details of Stardust, based on his "This is Stardust?" exclamation right before he's nuked. Not to mention that if he had any inkling of what Stardust really was, Cima wouldn't have been handing him a briefcase of documents describing it.

That's pretty much my take on the situation, too. The presence of the solar mirror indicates that Jamitov and friends were ready for something to happen, and if by chance it was a colony drop, they were ready. If not, they could simply fry the Delaz Fleet en masse at little relative cost to themselves. What Ciima Garahau probably intended to trade to Wyatt Green was the timetable of Stardust, detailing when and where the various elements of the attack were to take place. She could have taken her place in the operation, then sailed away past the transported colonies to whatever reward given her by the "grateful" EFF command, while the EFSF armada gathered in review went to battle stations and swatted down Delaz Fleet before Stardust ever got truly underway. Except those meddling kids from Albion got in the way. Feel the irony!

You can, of course, believe that they knew all about it. I've seen people tongue-in-cheek claim that the GP-02A was built solely for Gato to steal, which if accepted at face value would certainly imply the sort of collusion people are always stretching to find from Jamitov in particular and the Federation in general.

In hindsight everything looks rather pat, but I would disagree with the whole collusion thing, which sounds too "truther" (sic) for me. Jamitov and his cronies wouldn't have minded drawing Delaz Fleet out, but letting them obtain a nuke seems like a needless risk, and passes over the proto-Titans' own dislike for their government's lack of concern. The Titans liked to pose as loyal defenders of the Federation, and the incident of Gundamjack with WMD from a secure facility (with Spacenoid insider support too) would be the FUBAR scenario that would make good support for the creation of the Titans. The very fact that Delaz could hide in a shoal zone for nearly four years without becoming a priority target for a massive tiger hunt could be represented that the regular EFF command was lying down on the job. Obviously it was time for a new elite force dedicated to rooting out Zeon support to be formed!

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

The reason why the Side forces were targeted were precisely because they allowed control of the Sides. EFSF battle fleets could use the bases as friendly ports, moving forward with a secure line of logistics and communication to pin the ZMF inside Side 3.

I don't buy it. Again, Zeon had to destroy much of the EFSF before they could gas the colonies. So they're destroying the EFSF in order to gas the colonies in order to deny the EFSF operational flexibility? Seems rather cart-before-horse to me.

[Imperial]

So, Zeon is working to free the Sides from the Federation by...mindlessly butchering those very Sides that had no choice but to let the Federation roll in and use their space ports as a place to hold up? Are you saying civilian casualties are perfectly acceptable, even smart, when a position is under enemy control?

I'm not saying those casualties can always be avoided, but Zeon didn't just fail to avoid them. They ACTIVELY attacked and massacred colony populations for the sole crime of not being Zeon. It's this braindead, with-us-or-against-us policy that makes Zeon the bad guy of Gundam. If they would step back and realize that butchering innocents with war crimes and terrorist strikes was not a recipe for success or turning public approval, they might enjoy the kind of popular support a revolutionary army really should have. Zeons like to rant and rave about the righteousness of their cause, but how righteous can you really be when you're a fascist with delusions of a Zabi oligarchy and a history of abusing the population?

The Zeeks are every bit as corrupt and mindless (with a side of brutal bloodthirstiness) as the Federation has ever been, which is why the Universal Century keeps spinning its wheels. The Federation is too lazy or incompetent or smug to finish Zeon off once and for all, whereas Zeon is too random, scattered and senseless to accomplish anything.

[Zeonista]

So, Zeon is working to free the Sides from the Federation by...mindlessly butchering those very Sides that had no choice but to let the Federation roll in and use their space ports as a place to hold up? Are you saying civilian casualties are perfectly acceptable, even smart, when a position is under enemy control?

Gihren Zabi thought it was a good idea, and most beneficial to the Principality's war goals. So he drafted the plan and had it executed. This is not the thread aimed at radical ideology in Gundam, although I remember a few such at Evolution in the past. But as I've said, in the Principality of Zeon morality was made subservient to the cause of militant Zeonism. Degwin Zabi had already proclaimed that the Zeonists were on the side of right, so anything done to further the inevitable victory was good. It must have been a great shock to Degwin to discover that his son not only accepted all the fine words verbatim, but had actually decided to follow through with proactive strategy?

I'm not saying those casualties can always be avoided, but Zeon didn't just fail to avoid them. They ACTIVELY attacked and massacred colony populations for the sole crime of not being Zeon. It's this braindead, with-us-or-against-us policy that makes Zeon the bad guy of Gundam. If they would step back and realize that butchering innocents with war crimes and terrorist strikes was not a recipe for success or turning public approval, they might enjoy the kind of popular support a revolutionary army really should have.

This is a good point, although you would find few takers on the Zeon side. It is the all-inclusive radical vision of the Principality that makes Zeonism in turn fiercely exclusive of those that outright reject The Grand Vision as they do. As for the lumpenproletariat, sheeple, or whatever other cute name is used to label the general non-ideological populace, they will gladly accept the new future, once they've been shown/told it's for their own good. In our post-Cold War POV of 2011 this seems really off, but the Universal Century universe is ideological, and bent on deciding the viability of such ideologies in the most direct way.

Zeons like to rant and rave about the righteousness of their cause, but how righteous can you really be?

Zeonism, like other ideologies both real and imagined, is upheld by the wishes of its supporters. Most of the Zeon characters do believe in the words of Zeon Zum Daikun, believe they are doing the right thing for the future of humanity, and feel that if they can win a war and overthrow the corrupt & uncaring Federation, they can institute independence and reform, and look forward to a better life. Otherwise, why would any of them bother with fighting after Operation Odessa? Which is why Delaz and Gato are willing to try again in 0083.

[JEFFPIATT]

0083 implies a lot about the post war federation we see them rebuilding and it seems that there was an cabal in side jabaro who let stardust go on so they could take power they built an RX-78GP series suit that could deliver a nuke warhead and placed it for live fire testing at an undermanned back water base. it seemed that as planned Bask was to save the day and they tried to keep the Albion from getting the gp03. even after the plan went south they still won and managed to form the Titans and to keep the witnesses silent they either reassigned to the titans killed to put in an backwater testing base in America where they were testing the newly obtained gelgoog's.