Operation Stardust

[Irwin-Scarnato]

Forgive the sheer idiocity of this, i've seen that you're used to in-depth questions about force sizes, composition and all the rest of it, so this might seem very, very dim-witted on my part by comparison.
Just what was the TARGET in Operation Stardust?

I have watched 0083 several times and each time I see it, my conclusion is only that Zeon came out of hiding to blow up some corn. (That seems to be where the colony hits.)
This doesn't make sense to me. Even if Zeon wanted to make the point that the Federation can't protect food, let alone people, i'm sure getting most of the remnants killed wasn't the best way to illustrate the issue.
If their point was to show federation incompetence by stealing a colony that could easily have crushed them, why was Jaburo NOT the target?
Sure, their point was to expose 'illegal' weapons development (GP02A) and they did do this, which... didn't seem to do diddly to the population living under Earth government rule..
So just what did Zeon set out to do here? It has me stumped, it frustrates me and as a result I simply do not like this series all that much.

Please don't think of me as an idiot. I've understood all the other UC series that i've watched (Halfway through ZZ, haven't seen all of V, seen the rest.)
It's just this ONE thing that I can't understand. Please, put me out of my misery.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

The point was to show the Federation Forces as a paper tiger. After the One Year War, the Federation goes on and on about how Zeon was defeated and the Federation was victorious, when as a matter of fact there was a very sizable amount of Zeon firepower left lying around the Earth Sphere. Not enough to fight the Federation straight-up and win, but more than just the Republic of Zeon and Axis.

It was basically the equivalent of the Zeon remnants saying "we're still here and we're still fighting", while the EFF tried to insist that Zeon was dead and gone. It was more symbolic than anything else.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

I'll have to look this up but my first reaction would be that it's just another inconsistency that cropped up near the end of the series. You know, like the Kou/Nina/Gato love triangle that showed up outta nowhere or

Spoiler

Cima's backstory having to be explained elsewhere 'cause they didn't do it in the series for whatever reason.

Ultimately the target doesn't matter as the ultimate goal of the operation never really worked out. Haman had more luck in trying to revive Zeon.

[Irwin-Scarnato]

Kirby - If they were trying to prove a point, why was Jaburo NOT their target? They wiped out two thirds (or was it one?) of the federation's space fleet with Gato's nuclear attack and then went on to deliver smaller blows as they escorted the colony to Earth. I could imagine that taking out two thirds of their fleet -and- crushing their capital, then releasing a statement of "we're but a small taste of what's yet to come" would be the singlemost devastating act of terrorism ever committed by such a relatively small group.
Landing a colony on some fields doesn't have quite as much impact.

I'm aware from an out-of-universe perspective they couldn't flatten Jaburo because it comes up in Zeta Gundam, but I cannot think of a decent in-universe reason for something with the right trajectory and location to NOT be their intended target. It's not like they even pointedly targetted a top-secret feddie base producing their next batch of weapons, because that was the La Vie En Rose at the time, who was 'neutral'.

[MSN-06S Sinanju]

It was indeed just to prove a point. That Zeon wasn't dead. That what the Delaz fleet ( and myself personally ) considered to be the true patriots of Zeon were still out there and to show others how fragile the federation was, despite Zeon in the state it was in being unable to bring them down on their own. The operation was intended to "Inspire a new generation of Zeon". Delaz himself knew it was effectively a suicide mission with little room for error and or escape. One isn't supposed to look at it from a 'war' perspective where there's some grand strategy for victory all laid out, Operation stardust could be summed up as Admiral Delaz's final middle finger to the federation. I could be wrong, but thats what I've gotten out of it.

[Kenji]

It wasn't just to prove a point. The vast majority of the world is barely habitable, not to mention infertile. The American Midwest has some of the best farmland in the world, and striking at it directly is bound to produce serious effects on global food supplies and, with it, the economy.

Of course, since economics is never addressed in Gundam (except in the most general terms, like "oil shortage"), it's not like the lack of visible effect in Zeta Gundam really constitutes a retcon.

[zerogradius]

It was indeed just to prove a point. That Zeon wasn't dead. That what the Delaz fleet ( and myself personally ) considered to be the true patriots of Zeon were still out there and to show others how fragile the federation was, despite Zeon in the state it was in being unable to bring them down on their own. The operation was intended to "Inspire a new generation of Zeon". Delaz himself knew it was effectively a suicide mission with little room for error and or escape. One isn't supposed to look at it from a 'war' perspective where there's some grand strategy for victory all laid out, Operation stardust could be summed up as Admiral Delaz's final middle finger to the federation. I could be wrong, but thats what I've gotten out of it.

I agree with all that you said, except that what was the point of Gato diverting the colony away from Jabrow. It was already going to hit, so if their goal was to prove a point, what better place than there.

Also, in the end, nothing they did really mattered due to Cima's betrayal. Though the colony hitting the earth was not part of the plan, the Delaz Fleet still played into the hands of Bask and Jamitov, who used Operation Stardust to create the Titans.

[Imperial]

Destroying Jaburo would not have amounted to *all* that much because the big wigs "knew" it was the target well in advance and were hastily evacuating. The Delaz Fleet would have destroyed an empty fortress, some surrounding jungle and little else.

The objective of Operation Stardust was to force the Federation into a position of weakness with the colonies. With the food shortages that were sure to follow losing so much of Earth's precious farmland, the Federation would, in theory, be forced to rely more upon the colonies to export foodstuffs for the people of Earth. This, in turn, would give colonists an unprecedented amount of leverage over the Federation.

It's a rare moment of actual intelligence from Zeon. Instead of using abominable tactics in the name of upholding or reviving a twisted dynasty in some misguided effort to prove Spacenoid superiority, the Delaz Fleet wanted to land a crippling blow against the Federation, which would buckle under the weight of simple supply and demand rather than a show of force from a band of maniacal leftovers who had no real hope of ever toppling the Federation with brute strength.

But, in the end, Jamitov and Bask's fearmongering won out over economic implications, allowing them to channel the furor of Stardust into the Titans.

[MSN-06S Sinanju]

It's a rare moment of actual intelligence from Zeon. Instead of using abominable tactics in the name of upholding or reviving a twisted dynasty in some misguided effort to prove Spacenoid superiority.

Gihren's greed, Zeon perfect victory, all I have to say to that.

now onto more important matters, how much you want to rent that space out for? lol.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Gihren's greed, Zeon perfect victory, all I have to say to that.

now onto more important matters, how much you want to rent that space out for? lol.

Okay, so the Zeon won in an alternate universe, what's your point?

[Irwin-Scarnato]

So... My initial conclusion that Operation Stardust's target was corn... was right?
It's a shame they never mention the economic impact the operation had, just watching the show really isn't enough.
Oh, as someone mentioned Cima's backstory was explained outside of the series, what's the name of that source?

[Amadi Akintunde]

So... My initial conclusion that Operation Stardust's target was corn... was right?
It's a shame they never mention the economic impact the operation had, just watching the show really isn't enough.
Oh, as someone mentioned Cima's backstory was explained outside of the series, what's the name of that source?

The Encounters in Space game, as far as I know. It wasn't just corn either, but the whole of the North American mass granary.

[Irwin-Scarnato]

Oh drat, that's something I was never fortunate enough to get my hands on.

Also, starving the population of Earth/ forcing the Earth to become dependant upon the colonies seems like a much more noble reason to join a suicidal operation than just killing a bit of corn or simply proving a point about Zeon not being dead. (Dying to prove you're not dead isn't a wise venture any way you slice it.)

Thanks for clearing it up, guys. I feel I can now watch the series without feeling a distaste for the operation.

[MSN-06S Sinanju]

Gihren's greed, Zeon perfect victory, all I have to say to that.

now onto more important matters, how much you want to rent that space out for? lol.

Okay, so the Zeon won in an alternate universe, what's your point?

Zeon's victory looked like atleast for the main characters, everyone ( except what appeared to be amuro getting curbstomped ) was more better off than the federation's was the point. To be fair I suppose any 'perfect victory' could look a lot better than a hard fought one for either side. I'm biased though regardless.. I look at Gihren's greed as a "What could've been" type setting. Rather than an alternate universe all together. With the titans, earth's no better than Zeon's own moral standing, short of the fed renegades in and out of the AEUG, so continues the usual moral gray area of Gundam. To be fair I guess it's all relative to ones own views really. I am biased towards Zeon though and to be truthful, Nothing you could say would ever convince me that everyone was better off with a federation victory.

The point was, It wasn't some 'misguided attempt at proving spacenoid superiority'. Unless we're talking about from a tactical perspective, which was a disaster.

On topic, North america was also cited as being one of the earth federation's main areas of industrial power, hitting it would cause significant damage to their industrial infrastructure as well as agricultural.

[Imperial]

Also, starving the population of Earth/ forcing the Earth to become dependant upon the colonies seems like a much more noble reason to join a suicidal operation than just killing a bit of corn or simply proving a point about Zeon not being dead. (Dying to prove you're not dead isn't a wise venture any way you slice it.)

Thanks for clearing it up, guys. I feel I can now watch the series without feeling a distaste for the operation.

But you should feel distaste for it. It's an act of terrorism launched by a band of zealots who went around singing the graces of Gihren Zabi, a vicious dictator who authorized the use of chemical weapons to murder massive amounts of the fellow Spacenoids that Gato and his fellows allegedly wished to free from the supposed tyranny of the Federation. You know, because the Federation seeing the colonies as an extension of itself is so much worse than butchering civilians just to make a point.

They talk about how evil the Federation is, but who was it that went out of their way to target harmless civilian populations? It was Zeon.

With the titans, earth's no better than Zeon's own moral standing, short of the fed renegades in and out of the AEUG, so continues the usual moral gray area of Gundam. To be fair I guess it's all relative to ones own views really. I am biased towards Zeon though and to be truthful, Nothing you could say would ever convince me that everyone was better off with a federation victory.

The point was, It wasn't some 'misguided attempt at proving spacenoid superiority'. Unless we're talking about from a tactical perspective, which was a disaster.

On topic, North america was also cited as being one of the earth federation's main areas of industrial power, hitting it would cause significant damage to their industrial infrastructure as well as agricultural.

The Titans were a one-off. Zeon went around using chemical weapons, nukes, colony drops and a general campaign of terror in every iteration. And they did it to uphold the heinously corrupt Zabi name. None of this is to say the Titans were a-okay, but everyone who cites the Titans as evidence that Zeon was right conveniently forgets the fact that Zeon was persistently dedicated to the kinds of nightmarish tactics and freakish ideology that only ever gripped the Federation for a few years.

Sure, I don't expect to sway you--Zeon fans never budge, and you've flat out said as much--but it's always a bit alarming to see people sing Zeon's praises when it was nothing more than a band of blind sheep following a silver-tongued fascist who lead them by the nose into staggering war crimes.

You say you can't see how the world was better off with a Federation victory? How would a Zeon victory have helped anyone? Gihren moves ahead with his plans to butcher the "undesirables" just as he promised in his conversation with Degwin, Zeon eventually splits in a civil war between Gihren and Kycilia and the Earth Sphere's bloody history rages on in even more vicious ways now that we have the Zeons waging it--the same Zeon that used nukes and chemicals whenever they felt the need.

[ShadowCell]

I am biased towards Zeon though and to be truthful, Nothing you could say would ever convince me that everyone was better off with a federation victory.

Then what are you doing here?

Come back when you're willing to talk.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

You know ShadowCell, I honestly thought that Chris would beat you to the punch on the last post.

[prince_of_zeon]

I think the method behind the madness was to destroy all the adult movie studios in North America so that one Mr. Bernard Moncha, with his beautiful porn 'stache, would be out of a job and have to join the Titans.

But in all seriousness, it seems to me that Jaburo was never the target--why would Gato, being the puppet that he was, divert the colony at the last minute away from that base? It makes no sense. It seems to me that (and this is just speculation, so don't jump on me) Jaburo was probably meant as a diversion tactic in order to make the Feddies emphasize their evacuation efforts elsewhere.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

I think the method behind the madness was to destroy all the adult movie studios in North America so that one Mr. Bernard Moncha, with his beautiful porn 'stache, would be out of a job and have to join the Titans.

GOOD IDEA!!! That's the best theory yet!!

[Irwin-Scarnato]

Woah woah woah, guys, let's keep it clean, ey? Not all of Zeon's soldiers support the Zabis or their ideals.
Since 0058, seccession from the Federation was the goal of the Republic. It wasn't until a whole decade later that Zeon Zum Deikun died, and in was 0069 in which the Principality was formed. The rapid militarisation thereafter could be seen as an inevitability. After more than a decade, the discussions have not resulted in an end and so it would be very wise to experiment in defensive-based weaponry to keep the Federation away.

Now let's take a look at this in-universe, my 'character' is 24 years old. I'd have been three when the idea of seccession came about, so most of my life would have been surrounded by news stories about the struggles in achieving our wish of independance. At the age of 13, our leader, who started the notion that the colonies should be free since before I was even born, dies... What then follows is stories showing news of science, the M particle and the military mobile suit. In 0077, at 22 years old now, the Riah Revolution occurs. One of the sides became independant and free, thanks to Mobile Suits. This is what the papers and news reports will obviously cover...
After an entire lifetime spent in debates and arguments over our independance, a solution seems... clear. We can fight back the Federation. Become the nation we were supposed to be. It's also been 6 years since Gihren even stated his Survival of the Selected plan, so it's not exactly at the forefront of the people's minds, like revolution and freedom are.
Two years will pass and the One Year War will begin.
There will be those that do not support the Zabis at all, but instead see the war as somehow justified, or perhaps the only way in which freedom can be achieved.

Zeon soldiers don't exactly have to believe in gassing colonies or anything like that. Heck, Doan quit the military after he realised he'd harmed a family. I'm sure there would be countless soldiers who felt that way.. We're not all bad, you know.