The Official Gundam 00 Anything Thread Mk VIII

[Symbolhime]

They didn't disappear, though. He doesn't suddenly scream "I'LL KILL YOUUU" at Ali or whatever. There's nothing dispel their existence.

Would you prefer him to have "I'm not a terrorist-killer and I love Katharon" as a verbal tic?

[ShadowCell]

No; my whole complaint about him, to say it again, is that none of that stuff ever made a difference over the course of the show. If it ever mattered at all, it was in isolated moments that were gone as quickly as they arrived. It doesn't have to come up every time his face is on the screen. It doesn't have to be some verbal tic. But I would have rather had it matter, to anything and anyone, that he used to be in Katharon, for example. What difference does that make in the plot? None--Katharon and Celestial Being never come into conflict, no one calls him out on it, it means nothing when he decides to adopt his brother's mantle because he never had to choose between his brother's mantle and Katharon. What difference does that make in the way he acts and interacts with the other characters, and the decisions he makes? After the first few episodes, none--and that the stirrings of it were there for those first few episodes doesn't mean it was there for the rest. Hence, his being in Katharon does not matter after the writers have swept it into the shadows. It could have mattered--maybe that's what you're basing you're opinion on--but it didn't.

Hence, we have Lyle Dylandy, stand-in for his brother. Occasionally the writers remember that he was supposed to be more, but most of the time he's just keeping his brother's seat warm.

[Symbolhime]

No; my whole complaint about him, to say it again, is that none of that stuff ever made a difference over the course of the show.

Oookay-

If it ever mattered at all, it was in isolated moments that were gone as quickly as they arrived.

So basically you don't give a damn anyway that Katharon aided CB a bunch of times and Lyle helped them get together.

What difference does that make in the plot? None--Katharon and Celestial Being never come into conflict

After the base in the desert is hit the personnel nearly come to blows, only to be defused by Lyle.

no one calls him out on it

That's because nobody but Setsuna knows until at least ep 15, and by that point he's proved to be trustworthy.

it means nothing when he decides to adopt his brother's mantle because he never had to choose between his brother's mantle and Katharon.

What mantle? Niel and Lyle are Lockon, the Sniper Gundam Pilot for Celestial Being. There are no other strings attached except being cool and having an orange robot. He does choose between them at the end of the show, as he stays with Celestial Being rather than returning to Katharon, duh.

What difference does that make in the way he acts and interacts with the other characters, and the decisions he makes?

He doesn't attack Setsuna, he doesn't attack Setsuna again, he's not adverse to Katharon retaliating against A-Laws (which often caused pain as show by Barack's wife), and he defeats Ali without going all rage mode.

After the first few episodes, none--and that the stirrings of it were there for those first few episodes doesn't mean it was there for the rest.

Because again, he needs to be repetitive in a show with so much else going on. Maybe you just have a predilection for being force-fed information or something, I don't know.

Hence, his being in Katharon does not matter after the writers have swept it into the shadows. It could have mattered--maybe that's what you're basing you're opinion on--but it didn't.

Except it set them up as pals the whole second season culminating in Katharon saving CB's arses twice at the end and him not dying like Niel.

Hence, we have Lyle Dylandy, Niel's twin brother who was the product of the same horrible events. The writers made him into a Niel who made the right choices instead of the wrong ones, and through this were able to show two different sides of the same template.

Fixed.

[ShadowCell]

It's like you're intentionally missing my point or something.

You speak under the assumption that it was Lyle's machinations that brought Celestial Being and Katharon together during the final battle and not, say, their having worked together during the Africa Tower mess--which had nothing to do with Lyle and everything to do with all of them being in the same place at the same time. You say that no one calls him out on his dual loyalties because no one knows except Setsuna--without explaining why Setsuna never does, the same way Setsuna never questioned Neil for throwing a fit over his past as a terrorist. You say he's not against Katharon's retaliating against A-LAWS--as though anyone else in Celestial Being was (because they sure weren't stopping Katharon from fighting back during the A-LAWS attack with the automatons). You say he "doesn't attack Setsuna," except for the part where he beat the crap out of Setsuna after Anew died, I guess. You say he makes a choice to stay with Celestial Being instead of Katharon at the end, which is some choice seeing as how Katharon no longer appears to exist.

Why you act as though I need to be "force-fed information" is beyond me, because I am not asking to be "force-fed information;" I am asking for plot seeds that get conspicuously planted in the beginning of the story to go somewhere or do something at some point later in the story. 00 pretty plainly set Lyle up in the beginning of the second season as having dual loyalties, to Katharon and to Celestial Being. When did his having dual allegiances matter? When did he have to choose between them? Never. Things coast along perfectly fine, for Lyle and for Celestial Being, because Lyle's dual loyalties never become an issue. It's an issue raised in the beginning, when he's quietly using Celestial Being resources and funneling information to Katharon, using his new comrades' operations for their benefit...and nothing comes from that. It's dropped. They all go on like it never happened.

If it helps, this is the same complaint I have with characters like Allelujah and Graham and Marina and Regene and the Trinity team. Much is made of them in the beginning, and yet by the end, they turn out to have been wasted. Perhaps that's the word I should have used in the beginning; my complaint about Lyle is that he was wasted.

[Symbolhime]

You speak under the assumption that it was Lyle's machinations that brought Celestial Being and Katharon together during the final battle and not, say, their having worked together during the Africa Tower mess

But that's after Katharon helped them repair and resupply and after CB defended Katharon's base and space fleet and destroyed the space weapon together. The Tower fall was about the Coup D'tat faction, not Katharon, their plot had been sorted out. Once again, you like force-feeding.

You say that no one calls him out on his dual loyalties because no one knows except Setsuna--without explaining why Setsuna never does, the same way Setsuna never questioned Neil for throwing a fit over his past as a terrorist.

It's because Setsuna trusts the brother of his old pal Lockon, plus he knows Lyle's in Katharon so he probably has the same ideals. And Setsuna doesn't question Neil because Neil explains his reasons and attitude whilst his gun is pointed at Setsuna. This is all obvious by following the flow of events. More force-feeding issues.

You say he's not against Katharon's retaliating against A-LAWS--as though anyone else in Celestial Being was (because they sure weren't stopping Katharon from fighting back during the A-LAWS attack with the automatons).

Barack's wife is killed by a Katharon bomb. That implies a terror attack, because she's show in civvie getup in the picture, I think. Either that or collateral damage. And you're ignoring CB's entire stance in the first season. They destroyed all those who promoted war. Katharon would have been similar to the Anf forces during the Tamil intervention in episode 2, not necessarily in the wrong but due to their inability to completely win, a target for an armed intervention as well. Not only did CB's stance on them change, but Lyle continued to aid and help them fight back even after joining Celestial Being. This shows he is different from his brother, who was Celestial Being first and prepared to intervene on both sides. Plus there is the whole "four year gap", things change deal.

You say he "doesn't attack Setsuna," except for the part where he beat the crap out of Setsuna after Anew died, I guess.

You missed the tense scene where he points the gun at Setsuna's back? Maybe you didn't quite understand that it meant he was considering shooting Setsuna and killing him, you know, without some "I am angry at Setsuna, I understand why, but I think I want to kill him very badly!" dialogue lol

Why you act as though I need to be "force-fed information" is beyond me, because I am not asking to be "force-fed information;" I am asking for plot seeds that get conspicuously planted in the beginning of the story to go somewhere or do something at some point later in the story.

Because you seem to think concepts brought up near the start just vanish in a puff of smoke unless reiterated. Plot seeds? Lyle is in Katharon. Lyle is in CB. Lyle helps Katharon. Katharon helps CB. CB meets Katharon, CB asks Katharon to stay out of the fights. CB helps Katharon, Lyle keeps in touch. One month of solid fighting passes without any reiteration. Katharon's space fleet depleted. Put two-and-two together, the seed sprouted into a Plot Vine that travelled all the way through the show.

00 pretty plainly set Lyle up in the beginning of the second season as having dual loyalties, to Katharon and to Celestial Being. When did his having dual allegiances matter? When did he have to choose between them? Never.

Uh, because they're both on the same side? Katharon was formed by people who cottoned on to the weird-arse events and who were inspired by CB ("So these are the machines that saved Azadistan four years ago!") and wanted to make a stand. CB's original unification work was done, they were back to defeat A-Laws and stop it from screwing with data. CB and Katharon worked together. You know, everybody comes together to fight the real bad guy and all that jazz. It happens a lot in anime.

It's an issue raised in the beginning, when he's quietly using Celestial Being resources and funneling information to Katharon

Setsuna knew that. He knew about Katharon. Before Sumeragi got over her four-year hangover, Setsuna was running the entire thing.

Seriously. Do something with the plot threads you throw out there. This is something that I and practically everyone else here have criticized DESTINY for, so it's not like this is a difficult concept.

I criticize Destiny for all the boring fights and the only sane guy being turned into "rawr I swing sword" and taking a nosedive into the moon because some Kira-Lacus shipper wanted her way. 00 gives me fun characters, lots of world-building, and a bunch of entertaining fights and a good ending. That's why I can happily ignore your silly nitpicking of a pair of twins because as far as my opinion goes, 00 was the better package overall.

[ShadowCell]

You know, I was going to reply, Symbolhime, but something about your post caught my eye...

That's why I can happily ignore your silly nitpicking of a pair of twins

Why, that's precisely what you've been doing throughout this thread, even though, oddly enough, you keep talking to me anyway. Which leads me to the conclusion that you're just trolling me--and so trying to explain my opinion to you was always and ever will be a waste of time. No matter how many times I explained that I'm not talking about "force-feeding information," that's what you went back to anyways, because...you were just trolling me.

Against my better judgment, if it helps, think of my criticism of Lyle as the same criticism that some people have of Graham in the second season of 00--how he shows all this promise and all these hints of being something more than what he turns out to be. Or the same criticism some people have of Soma, who spends most of the second season as Marie and doing little more than taking up space, when she used to be Soma Peries and used to be an active part of the story. Or the same criticism some people have of Allelujah, the "Marie Marie Marie Marie Marie" guy. Or the same criticism of Wang Liu-Mei, who spends much of the show sitting ominously in the background making sinister remarks, and then dies without the audience having ever learned what exactly she was after. Or the same criticism of Regene, or of the Trinity team. I probably haven't done as good a job as I should have making clear what I mean, for which I apologize.

But if all you're going to do is "happily ignore my nitpicking opinions," then you're just trolling me and I'm done wasting my time on you either way.

[Symbolhime]

I see the problem now, Symbolhime. You're just trolling me.

Well gee, I guess if you're that unsure of your own opinions to resort to trolling as an excuse...

The Tower battle is thus relevant there because it puts CB in contact with Katharon without Lyle.

No it doesn't. Katharon goes to support the Coup faction, and CB goes after hearing about it. They only ever make contact during that broadcast to all units in the airspace about the Debris.

Your claim about Setsuna just "trusting" Lyle somehow goes towards a criticism I have of Setsuna, but judging by how much difficulty you're having with this, that's probably a lost cause.

Then that's just your personal taste, can't change that.

doesn't hold up when everyone, including Celestial Being, ignores Celestial Being's entire stance in the first season. Tieria, Allelujah, and Setsuna are all the same characters from the first season and they didn't revert back to armed intervention type--why does it then matter that Lyle didn't, when nobody else did? What, Neil wouldn't have done the same?

It's still a point of difference. Celestial Being is a different organization four years later, as Lockon is a different person.

You...bring up an instance of Lyle and Neil doing the same thing, to...prove they're different. Well, okay.

You know, it would help if you actually quoted stuff you were replying too. I'm not an Innovator.

But then you continue this "force-feeding" horseshit after I pretty clearly explained to you what I'm talking about. I mean, I spell out exactly what I mean by "plot seeds" and you ignore me. Well, I guess I should've known you'd do that, huh?

Huh, I didn't know we could say horseshit.

Anyway, your obfuscating terms really don't apply to the situation, because the points turned up in every episode or two anyway. Plus you didn't get the whole "things connected to things" dealie. Which is why I keep saying you need to be force-fed, because you can't connect stuff in the plot together. Maybe it was just too fast or not to your liking, or something. Maybe you made up your mind to not care early on. I don't know, I'm not you.

That they are on the same side is irrelevant. Why? Because there is more than one way for such a plot seed to sprout

I'm actually glad they didn't waste time on that concept. CB and Katharon both want to stop A-Laws, why waste time bickering over semantics like that when you could stop A-Laws quicker? In real life, military alliances have always been thrown together like that. Look at Soviet Russia and the Allies in WW2. Both of them were spying on each other before and after the war, but they still joined hands to crush their mutual foe when needed.

Katharon's political goals versus Celestial Being's much more nebulous ones; they could have had Katharon's agenda come into conflict with Celestial Being's agenda, through a different plan for the A-LAWS-less world; they could have had Katharon decide to drop out at some point or get destroyed, leaving Lyle with the choice of helping the survivors or sticking with Celestial Being; and that's just the permutations I can think of off the top of my head right now.

CB's goals aren't nebulous concerning the world, they just want to stop A-Laws from distorting the world. And Katharon is basically the world's rebellious decent spirit, it's be a waste to wipe them out. These what-ifs are too vague and too large of a plot-change to even consider at this point. Might as well just grumble and go watch something else.

If it helps, think of it is as the same criticism that some people have of Graham in the second season of 00--how he shows all this promise and all these hints of being something more than what he turns out to be.

What promise? he's going around with a mask and talking funny. Setsuna's "I don't have time for this" attitude through the show until he finally just shut him up was excellent.

Or you can "happily ignore my nitpicking opinions," like you've been doing throughout this thread despite your continuing to make posts addressed to me. But if it's the latter, then I'm done wasting my time with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T_8xBUDHXs

[ShadowCell]

Fine. I obviously didn't do a good enough job of making my point, but whatever. You win.

Everyone else, I apologize for starting this. Won't do it again.

[Strike Zero]

I happen to agree with ShadowCell. The way things went, Lyle ended up contributing nothing of any real value to the show. One can argue semantics all they want, but in the end all he ended up being was Lockon 2.0, and the character as a whole suffered for it to the point where he ended up being an inferior character to Niel.

It's a shame, because I really did appreciate the differences between him and his brother that were presented to us at the beginning of the season, but those ended up becoming moot rather quickly.

[Shinji103]

Believe it or not, I also agree with Shadowcell. There's only so many ways you can say it, and all ways have been said, so I'll just say it too; Lyle started off different, but than just leveled out to be nothing more than Lockon 2.0. As it is, Mizushima and the staff should have just gone ahead and folded to the fan-demand for Feldt to be the Cherudim's pilot; I can think of many ways they could have pulled that off to avoid the Lockon 2.0 mess while still even keeping Anew in the plot.

[Destiny_Gundam]

Symbolhime, you need to chill out a bit. I know what set this off: Shadowcell's comment about 00 being "no better than Destiny" is certainly a volatile statement and could come off as a troll-like "00 SUCKS JUST LIKE DESTINY SUCKS!" But let's give Shadowcell the benefit of the doubt in that he meant it as "In regards to the treatment of some characters, I think 00 has the same problems as Destiny."

I get what you're saying, Shadowcell. Lyle having to choose between Katharon and CB was a potential plot and could have been interesting, and yet it wasn't utilized. Potential was wasted, hence your issue. Personally I don't think that's a bad thing. CB and Katharon were friendly, and Lyle feeding them info was beneficial over all. Setsuna and the others probably knew this, which is why they didn't care about his actions. 00 was pretty packed as it was, so adding a CB vs. Katharon conflict would confound things even more and take away from the CB vs. Ribbons plot, which was the main focus of the entire 2nd season. Besides, they did have a similar idea with having Lyle choose between CB and Anew.

It kept its focus on Setsuna and the main conflict, which is usually a good thing, but yes, that it leaves many other characters and subplots as superfluous and underdeveloped is a valid criticism.

What I still don't agree with is the claim that Lyle became just a 'placeholder' for Neil. Neil was the defacto leader/big brother, who would comfort some one when they're down, and do some good natured joking/teasing. Lyle? He never filled that 'leader' position his brother did, that was Setsuna's gig. That alone shows he didn't become "just like the first Lockon." Neil always had this "better than everyone" vibe, but Lyle felt like he was on the same level as everyone else (one of the main reasons I like him more). To further the differences, while Neil did things in good humor, Lyle was a jerk-ass. When Saji punched Setsuna, Lyle comes in with a "you're an idiot", and he purposely told Anew he loved her in front of everyone just to embarrass her. It wasn't so pronounced later on as it was in his early scenes with Feldt and Tieria, but he didn't need to exaggerated it anymore to prove he wasn't his brother.

Yes, Lyle ended up pointing a gun at Setsuna, and Lyle himself notes that he's not so different from his brother. I see that more as just a surface thing, though. Lyle was upset about Anew, an event that happened recently, where as Neil did it because he was hung up on the past. Really that scene should be compared to when Setsuna told Lyle about his role in his family's death, where Lyle certainly has a very different reaction than Neil.

So yeah, to me Neil and Lyle are vastly different. Lyle's over all approachability and the fact that he did far more impressive things in the Cheridum than Neil ever did in the Dynames makes him my preferred Dylandy twin.

[ShadowCell]

My criticism of DESTINY is basically that it had a bunch of potential that it wasted, so it would hardly be fair of me to give 00 a pass if I thought it did the same thing.

[Sume Gai]

talking about going nowhere fast....

I do have one question for you Shadowcell:

What would you give up for more Lyle development? Or more Al/Hal screentime? Or more of whatever you wanted?

One reason DESTINY was such a heavy offender to most people was it had so many things they felt weren't worthwhile to trade for what they wanted to see. (like say 6 clip episodes in favor giving Shin a few more hard smacks to the face)

00 on the other hand kept going pretty much the whole time so something would be lost in order to get what you wanted

[Chris]

I know this is called the "Gundam 00 Anything Thread" but I don't see much point in re-litigating criticisms about season 2. Obviously, people have their opinions about what was good and what wasn't, and the constant quote wars aren't going to change that. We have a 00 movie coming out this weekend in Japan, but from looking at this thread you'd think season 2 was still airing. Let's move on and put it behind us.

[JEFFPIATT]

Astrophysicist in leather it seems

That's the best kind of astrophysicists.

Well she probably is nena's saner twin sister and it looks like she gets her excitement without mass murder being involved.

[Heecarl_Reez]

Ngee Khiong's blog has the spoilers for the movie, continue at your own risk .

[Symbolhime]

All I want to know is what happens to Patrick.

[quasadra]

it spoiled a few plot points. other than that, we still know nothing.

[radioactive28]

All I want to know is what happens to Patrick.

I've added that little bit in my post in the Mecha thread

Just read the spoilers on Ngee Khiong, seems like I missed quite a few things...

Didn't quite like the way they handled the story though.

[ZeonsSilverStar]

I read some things about a certain ex samurai that weren't too pleasing. There were other things I could comment on but this is just the biggest to me. Oh well these things happen I guess.