Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ

Board index » Discussion » Anime and Manga




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Wufei's Counterattack
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:03 pm 
Offline
OMG Doomsday Laser
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:56 am
Posts: 1427
Location: Inside the barrel of Wing Zero's left Buster Rifle.
...By that I mean Endless Waltz. lol. Sorry, it's not a new sequel. :P

So I rewatched EW recently (...and by "recently" I mean December...) which I try to do at least once a year, and it brought up a lot of thoughts. Of course, it gets better every time I see it, and this year it was jaw droppingly amazing. While the number of topics I could potentially create about the movie could fill its own sub-forum, I'm just going to pose the one I find the most thought-provoking right now:

In general I find Wufei to generally be a disliked and misunderstood character among fans. (Kinda like Suzaku from CG.) In Endless Waltz, I really saw his character come to fruition, and his place in the movie made for fascinating circumstances. While this thread isn't meant to defend Wufei or to force my opinion upon you, I wanted to use it to genuinely analyze and understand his character and story without falling on superficial impressions.

As usual, I'll let you speak before I voice my own opinion. Hopefully this isn't another interesting thread I start and let die before I find time to post my own ideas. =/ Anyway, some focusing questions:

**edit: Are Wufei's arguments in the movie legitimate? How do you feel about how the debate between Heero and Wufei played out? Do you agree with the outcome?

How do you feel about Wufei's role in EW? Is it consistent with his character in GW and the various manga, specifically Episode Zero? What sort of person willingly becomes the antagonist, and what does that say about Wufei? Do you find his story to be similar to other characters you know? And anything else you feel like saying.

So, give it some thought and post what you know. I'll try my best to be responsive.

_________________
"Red particles are bad, they mutate you into... dead? But green/blue particles are good, apparently, for reasons and for purposes yet to be determined. Isn't science sometimes nicely color-coded?"
-Antares

GW: The Sword . Sera's Art . Gameplay . The Lost Citadel


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:21 am 
Offline
Elitist Earth Politician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:40 pm
Posts: 675
Location: In the fridge, behind the mayonnaise, next to the ketchup, and to the left of the coleslaw.
For starters, Wufei is generally disliked because most of what he says and does makes no sense (e.g.:He deems others as weak, though they fight; he deems himself as weak, though he fights). In EW he protests that as Relena's peace movement spreads, the soldiers who fought to realize that peace are being discarded (the way some American soldiers are treated after serving overseas). Also, methinks that as a boy brought up only to fight, Wufei's rendered obsolete, this after losing his home colony and failing to beat Trieze to his satisfaction. Hence, having nothing to lose, he joins Mariemaia's army. At least this is the gist of what I get from his role in EW.

_________________
"That's it! I'll never Gundam the pilot again, Bright!"--Amuro Ray

My YouTube Channel!

My Photobucket Album!

My Gunpla Blog!


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:53 am 
Offline
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:26 am
Posts: 1228
So I'm not the only one who watches Endless Waltz around Christmas each year. :mrgreen:

I actually rather liked what Battlefield of Pacifists did with Wufei re: setting up Endless Waltz. Sure, it's not strictly canon, having competition from Ground Zero and Blind Target (which also got a radio drama) and all were IIRC done by writers for the TV show. Still, I liked how it had Wufei coming to the conclusion that humanity needed some external threat (because apparently the Eve War wasn't enough) and how he resolved to become that threat for what he saw as the good of humanity. I can't recall any of the other interquels providing him with a motivation, much less a noble one, though I admit it's been a long time since I've read any of them.

Anyhow, if you view 'fighting Treize' as Wufei's expression of his own issues, at least what he says in EW makes more sense. Wufei talks about being weak when he can't accomplish what he wanted to. Killing Treize the first time in the TV series, keeping his wife from dying in Episode Zero, etc. In EW he's dealing with the question of what he's supposed to do now that the reason for pretty much his whole life is gone. Unlike the other pilots, he doesn't really have anything to fall back on. Heero has watching over Relena, Duo has Hilde and their business, Trowa has the circus and Quatre has the family business and the Maganac Corp. Wufei's kinda out there with nothing to do and nobody to talk to (it's not in his character). Since he's not sure what path he should follow, he winds up picking the only thing he really knows how to do and he's trying to understand how Heero in particular can stand living in a world that doesn't need him any more.

One of these days I'll probably try to analyze the whole Treize angle in more detail (this is just something I thought up off the top of my head) but one last thought that occurred to me is that Treize was fighting to, well, end fighting. By 'fighting' his memory, Wufei is fighting against the idea that you can end fighting and discard the soldiers. Once Heero clues him in that continuing to fight will lead to more tragedies and once he sees the citizens willing to fight for their own freedom, he accepts that he doesn't have to fight any more and so gives up his mental struggle with Treize's memory and/or his own issues.

Also, one of these days I'm going to have to fully rewatch the TV series (as opposed to just EW) in Japanese and see whether the dub sent one or more characters off in a different direction. I know the fanbase seems to have sent certain characters off the rails...


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:56 pm 
Offline
Gun-toting Patlabor Pilot
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:41 am
Posts: 2976
Location: Atlanta, GA
Arsarcana wrote:
I can't recall any of the other interquels providing him with a motivation, much less a noble one, though I admit it's been a long time since I've read any of them.


Not really; in Blind Target he's mostly along for the ride, but he makes one comment to Duo about how maybe Sogran and his people have the right idea, but all we get out of it is a shocked reaction from Duo. In Blind Target he shows up because he caught DTQ's trap message to Heero, then wanders off saying "whatev" when they explain it to him; by that point he's in the Mariemaia Army and the guys remark about his uniform, but then get back to the issue at hand.

I think the reason Wu Fei gets hate is kinda the same reason Relena does: a poor first impression that sets a lot of peoples' interpretations in stone, meaning character development gets ignored. Hence the popular portrayal of him as a screaming violent sociopath who only knows four words: "justice", "evil", "Nataku", and "onna".

I think what a lot of people miss out about Wu Fei is the same thing they miss out with on Gouki/Akuma from the Street Fighter series (boy, this already sounds like a wonderful comparison, doesn't it?) You see, the common portrayal of Akuma over here in the US is of a fight-crazy demon, which completely ignores his characterization. Akuma DOES have his own moral code which he obeys absolutely. He kills people because he believes that they knew what they were getting into when they became fighters, but only in fair fights and if he feels they're equals. He doesn't kill opponents far weaker than himself (like say Dan, or young Ken in the backstory), and he refuses to take advantage of extenuating circumstances in a fight (when he realized that Gen had tuberculous, he broke off their battle).

So similarly we have Wu Fei. His moral code is pretty easy to figure out: people should do the right and just thing, the strong shouldn't bully the weak, and women shouldn't fight. That last point can be debated as an aftereffect of Mei Lan's death, or possibly his cultural upbringing, but I'm not going to go into that here to avoid a debate about the morality of a real-world nation's culture. As for the other part of his code, consider that he IS the strong here - he's got a Gundam, which is head and shoulders above anything OZ has at the start. Therefore he feels like he's being a bully, which contrary to his own philosophy. If anything, he actually seems to welcome the Virgo series, since it means he can fight on an equal footing as well as avoiding killing weaker soldiers. Later on after he loses to Treize he's demoralized because he lost to someone who represents the "bad guys" in a fair fight, which is why he refuses to pilot until Sally snaps him out of it. There are some other points of contention (like his pulping both White Fang soldiers and the OZ soldiers they were attacking), but most of his actions can be explained simply by remembering his moral code and realizing that he's trying to stick with it as best he can.

Now, one thing I've had endless debates on (particularly with one individual) is the final duel with Treize. Personally, I think it's blatantly obvious that Treize committed Suicide By Cop and allowed Wu Fei to kill him, but the Treize fanboys I've met insist that Treize would never give up (or that Suicide By Cop would be an insult to Wu Fei) and that it was a lucky shot from Wu Fei. This completely ignores the fact that the last dozen or so episodes have been setting it up so that Treize carries out the Chirico/Lelouch plan of "make myself the villain, then disappear", with Milliardo having the same idea.

Regardless of this, the "victory" shakes Wu Fei to the core. Once more, he lost to a representative of the "bad guys", but this time the guy let himself die, meaning that while Wu Fei did win, he had a completely hollow victory, and his ideals lost out to Treize's, which is why he's so demoralized afterwards. In the time that follows (the interstitial manga) he sees the world moving in a direction completely opposite to his philosophy, which has become fixated on fighting. I don't think he ever really believed in a philosophy like Broden's, but the man's ideas made good sense and he felt a kinship with the old OZ soldier, so Wu Fei took them up as a memorial to Broden. In any event, he sees the Mariemaia Army as the best possible chance to achieve his goals, which ironically have become very similar to Treize's himself: give humanity the "push" of conflict to continue bettering themselves. As someone who's spent his whole life fighting, he can't fathom the idea of peaceful "evolution", which is why he's so opposed to Relena's ideals. Of course, the duel with Heero makes him realize that if people keep fighting, they'll experience more tragedies like the destruction of his home colony L5-0200. So by the end he's decided (pardon the cliché) to give peace a chance and see if humanity can continue onwards without having constant war and conflict.

...This kinda went on longer than I intended, but when I get on a roll I tend to do that. XD

_________________
In memoriam - Justin "JewWario" Carmical (1971 – 2014)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:37 pm 
Offline
OMG Doomsday Laser
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:56 am
Posts: 1427
Location: Inside the barrel of Wing Zero's left Buster Rifle.
Wow, some really nice responses so far! =o Let me just respond to this one particular thing real quick:
G-Slayer wrote:
Wufei is generally disliked because most of what he says and does makes no sense (e.g.:He deems others as weak, though they fight; he deems himself as weak, though he fights).

Really? :( I find that Wufei tends to make a lot of sense. (I think the only person that confuses me is Treize, who's always waxing poetic and all. We'll talk about him later....) I'm going to echo AmuroNT1 that Wufei may be confusing because people just take their initial response to his dialogue (confusion/misunderstanding) and stick with that without ever approaching it again.

I'm going to counter that simply because one takes on a battle, one is not either strong or weak, by Wufei's definition. Are Sally and her guerilla friends strong, just because they're rebelling? In any direct sense, would YOU call them strong? I know I wouldn't.

In Sally's case, I think Wufei calls them weak simply because they don't have the means to come out victorious against their enemy. They're obviously going to lose and die for their cause. The reason Wufei says the weak should not fight is because he detests seeing defenseless or hopeless people throwing their lives away without even a chance at victory. He doesn't like making victims out of people or seeing people make themselves into war casualties. That's why his reasoning is: the only people that should be fighting are the ones who stand a chance of coming out victorious (the strong.)

He's apparently very sensitive about life and death and doesn't want people to throw their lives away unnecessarily.

_________________
"Red particles are bad, they mutate you into... dead? But green/blue particles are good, apparently, for reasons and for purposes yet to be determined. Isn't science sometimes nicely color-coded?"
-Antares

GW: The Sword . Sera's Art . Gameplay . The Lost Citadel


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:25 am 
Offline
Hot-blooded Gattai
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:44 pm
Posts: 8071
Location: Detroit, MI
AmuroNT1 wrote:
There are some other points of contention (like his pulping both White Fang soldiers and the OZ soldiers they were attacking), but most of his actions can be explained simply by remembering his moral code and realizing that he's trying to stick with it as best he can.

Unfortunately such rigidity to his code ends up with him making some boneheaded moves that anyone in the viewing audience can't fathom doing themselves in the same situation. It's not until he has his turn with the Zero System that his views begin to truly mesh with the other Gundam pilots and those allied with them.
This is what I think the American fan base holds against him most and when you throw in the fact that he's the most anti-social of the pilots with the exception of Heero, it makes him come across as the jerk most take him for the whole time.

IMO, in EW he becomes a necessary evil. He is clearly on the wrong side of things, but for good reasons that the people of Earth as a whole need to see and learn from, which they eventually do.
Quote:
I'm going to counter that simply because one takes on a battle, one is not either strong or weak, by Wufei's definition. Are Sally and her guerilla friends strong, just because they're rebelling? In any direct sense, would YOU call them strong? I know I wouldn't.

In Sally's case, I think Wufei calls them weak simply because they don't have the means to come out victorious against their enemy. They're obviously going to lose and die for their cause. The reason Wufei says the weak should not fight is because he detests seeing defenseless or hopeless people throwing their lives away without even a chance at victory. He doesn't like making victims out of people or seeing people make themselves into war casualties. That's why his reasoning is: the only people that should be fighting are the ones who stand a chance of coming out victorious (the strong.)
That may be, but what WuFei doesn't understand is that rebelling like this is the last option left for these people if they want to keep their way of life. Being weak or strong has nothing to do with it in their minds. The only other option is to submit to Bunt, and therefore OZ's rule over their country which ironically puts them on the same path as WuFei in that they are fighting against OZ to save their home.

_________________
The Gundam wiki

"Reality makes a crappy special effects crew." - Adam Savage


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:14 am 
Offline
OMG Doomsday Laser
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:56 am
Posts: 1427
Location: Inside the barrel of Wing Zero's left Buster Rifle.
Wingnut wrote:
That may be, but what WuFei doesn't understand is that rebelling like this is the last option left for these people if they want to keep their way of life. Being weak or strong has nothing to do with it in their minds. The only other option is to submit to Bunt, and therefore OZ's rule over their country which ironically puts them on the same path as WuFei in that they are fighting against OZ to save their home.


Well, it's exactly this that makes this sort of discussion difficult. There are always multiple parties looking at the same situation with completely different agendas. But it's this dialogue between them that's actually the meat of the episode between Sally and Wufei.

I can't speak for Wufei, but I don't think it's that he does not understand where the guerillas are coming from. He just has different views from them, though Sally manages to sway him somewhat to take up arms again. Sally says they're rebelling because they are resisting Bunt. Wufei says their fighting will only end with them dying. They're each just concerned with totally different things, so there is not much helping it.

But yeah, with some 'power differentials', Wufei and Sally are doing the same thing: fighting OZ. However, Wufei still insists that people should not fight unless they have the strength to win. (Again, because he lost to Treize, Wufei quits fighting cold turkey because he knows he'll never destroy OZ if he can't defeat its leader.) He doesn't want any more martyrs. This is a strong theme all throughout Gundam Wing and Endless Waltz. Soldiers and pilots are tragic people, and what the Gundam pilots want to avoid most is creating more people like themselves. That's why they insist on fighting on the behalf of others, only letting themselves take on that burden. And yes, because it's so symbolic, the Gundam pilots often continue to fight even though they're sure they're going to lose. It's that sort of thing that makes GW so interesting for me.

By the way, that scene with Wufei and his use of ZERO system was so forced, lol. I wish it were handled better.

_________________
"Red particles are bad, they mutate you into... dead? But green/blue particles are good, apparently, for reasons and for purposes yet to be determined. Isn't science sometimes nicely color-coded?"
-Antares

GW: The Sword . Sera's Art . Gameplay . The Lost Citadel


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:35 pm 
Offline
Elitist Earth Politician
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:40 pm
Posts: 675
Location: In the fridge, behind the mayonnaise, next to the ketchup, and to the left of the coleslaw.
Quote:
That may be, but what WuFei doesn't understand is that rebelling like this is the last option left for these people if they want to keep their way of life. Being weak or strong has nothing to do with it in their minds. The only other option is to submit to Bunt, and therefore OZ's rule over their country which ironically puts them on the same path as WuFei in that they are fighting against OZ to save their home.


Another option is for Sally and friends to wait for a Gundam to show up, and look how that turns out. The guy who stands a chance comes to the rescue after letting Bunt wipe out half of the guerrillas. Yay.

_________________
"That's it! I'll never Gundam the pilot again, Bright!"--Amuro Ray

My YouTube Channel!

My Photobucket Album!

My Gunpla Blog!


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:19 pm 
Offline
Creepy Bishonen

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 4:59 pm
Posts: 203
G-Slayer wrote:
For starters, Wufei is generally disliked because most of what he says and does makes no sense (e.g.:He deems others as weak, though they fight; he deems himself as weak, though he fights).


I think it makes sense if you consider that Wufei and Heero seem to share the same beliefs here: that all of humanity is weak, and when weak people (i.e. anyone and everyone) start picking up weapons, chaos ensues.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:07 am 
Offline
AEUG Slapping Boy
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:51 am
Posts: 140
Location: Wild Duck Burger
I was always thought that Wufei was only disliked by the female populace, considering that there were a lot of Noin fans during the series' hype. I always get that impression whenever I see a comment like "Noin is better than Wufei!" etc., etc. Wufei isn't generally hated in my opinion, although you get the idea from a lot of comments like those to speculate on. :|

_________________
"Rush hour, during the Dark hour..."


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:06 am 
Offline
Mecha Flunky
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:15 am
Posts: 4
I know it's been over a year since anyone's put in an opinion on this topic, but I felt I should add my two cents, for what it's worth.

First of all, not everyone hates Wu Fei. I happen to like him very much.

Second, you have to remember that Wu Fei had recently lost his entire colony when he attacked the lunar base in Episode 37; OZ was responsible, and Wu Fei was still half mad with grief. To him, those human MS pilots were still members of OZ, whom he had every reason to hate.

As for Endless Waltz, I prefer to think that he might have been brainwashed. It would be Dekim Barton's speed.

_________________
"Just watch me ... I'll become the God of Death once again, but right now ... I need some sleep."

- Duo Maxwell, from Gundam Wing episode 23. Best. Line. EVER.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:57 am 
Offline
HiMAT Spammer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:44 am
Posts: 886
Location: Augusta, GA
Wufei was in a point where he did not know how to live after fighting for so long. Being a civilian and not experienced the rush of the battlefield I can not judge. I thought his role was good as you have 4 out of 5 pilots adjusting to peace time and one that is not. I can believe those odds. But I still don't really like wufei as a person, he was so snooty in the series and the movie. And whiney.

_________________
"I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me"-Jesus Christ

PSN, Xbox Live, Twitter: Nates4Christ


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

Board index » Discussion » Anime and Manga


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Vent Noir and 5 guests

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: