Code Geass: Akito the Exiled

[wielder]

ShadowCell: That is only if you assume that Lelouch hypothetically went into Zero Requiem fully expecting to live, which I definitely don't think is the case. As far as I'm concerned, he was completely honest about his true intentions in both scenarios.

Xenosynth: Objectively speaking, I'll admit neither option brings anything to the table since the Code Geass time line currently has no future, by which I mean that there is no "R3" or any other kind of sequel in the works as far as we know.

Personally, I'd be perfectly happy if they never made a true sequel and just continued making a few quality side stories like Akito the Exiled, which is understandably underappreciated so far since the release schedule has been too slow, but I'm enjoying it as something that helps explore and expand the setting in ways that the original series was never able to accomplish. I don't think you need to have Lelouch around in order to make interesting stories in this universe.

[ShadowCell]

ShadowCell: That is only if you assume that Lelouch hypothetically went into Zero Requiem fully expecting to live, which I definitely don't think is the case. As far as I'm concerned, he was completely honest about his true intentions in both scenarios.

in which case he has the pleasant surprise of not actually having to live up to his own principle after all. lucky him. same problem.

[wielder]

in which case he has the pleasant surprise of not actually having to live up to his own principle after all. lucky him. same problem.

Perhaps or perhaps not, depending on your own perspective. Would you still want to blame Lelouch (for possibly unintentionally surviving) under such circumstances, even if he did in fact act according to his principle as far as fate allowed him?

Conversely, I've seen other opinions across the web. There are those viewers who would suggest (though not me) that Lelouch dying via Zero Requiem was a way for him to run away from truly facing up to his mistakes, instead of having the courage of being honest and living on to help reconstruct the world without needing to put on an elaborate act. If you ask me that's missing the point, but I digress.

[ShadowCell]

Would you still want to blame Lelouch for possibly unintentionally surviving under such circumstances, even if he did in fact act according to his principle as far as fate allowed him?

absolutely, because his principle was to stand in the same place as his victims and take the same heat that he dished out to them, and he didn't. they all just plain ol' died; he got to wiggle out of it and go live in his shack with CC and be happy for the rest of whatever.

besides which, i'm not sure how Lelouch getting out of his punishment OJ Simpson-style is an improvement here.

[wielder]

absolutely, because his principle was to stand in the same place as his victims and take the same heat that he dished out to them, and he didn't. they all just plain ol' died;

Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't see the point in personally blaming him for an unintended outcome beyond his control (post-death survival). Under those circumstances, it would be understandable.

Speaking more generally but still restricting this to the show itself, although it is connected to a larger ethical issue, there isn't an universal agreement among fans or critics about death being the most appropriate form of punishment for Lelouch's various offenses either. Even if it is in line with his personal way of thinking, it's possible to be cynical in the other direction and argue that voluntarily choosing to die with a smile while the survivors have to clean up the mess doesn't make up for all the damage and suffering he caused. Once again, it's admittedly a bit of a devil's advocate argument since that's not how I look at this.

he got to wiggle out of it and go live in his shack with CC and be happy for the rest of whatever.

That depends on how much or how little weight you want to put on the other things he sacrificed. Lelouch still suffered the pain of death, still dragged his name through the mud in front of the world, and still lost everything or everyone else in his life up until that point, including his beloved sister and all the other people he considered as friends, starting with Suzaku himself.

besides which, i'm not sure how Lelouch getting out of his punishment OJ Simpson-style is an improvement here.

I'm not saying it would be an improvement, but that's also too dissimilar of a comparison.

[HellCat]

Like I've already said, I think the real rub is that for alot of viewers pretty much no one in Lelouch's world is as sympathetic as Lelouch himself. So it creates a massive roadblock that he killed himself to bring happiness to a majority that most view as unworthy. Which is a shame because if you try and quiet that part of the matter it's hard to argue against the plan. After using people, losing the forces key to his plans and discovering one of his key reasons for fighting was a massive sham, he generates the exact opposite to his whole scheme as Zero. He's there face first, will go down as a monster so grand Euphy will be but a blip in the history books and he won't be around to enjoy the peace all of this ultimately creates. It's a bitter pill but means quite a bit, especially when you look at how R2 was sandwiched between Gundam 00. That show kept talking about Celestial Being paying for their crimes but never made good on it. Lelouch instead basically loses everything, even choosing to alienate anyone who still might have stuck by him. That's really somber.

But again you then have to take it that he's dead and defamed so the likes of Ougi, Viletta, Nina and Gino could have happy lives....which leads into the issue of perhaps having too many characters and thus too little time to make any of them count to the audience.

[ShadowCell]

if Lelouch does find some unexpected and unknown way to survive, then in the end, he's obeyed only the letter of his own law and not the spirit. it's one thing to praise him for going to his death to make life better for a bunch of undeserving douchebags, because that was the principle he laid out and in the end, he didn't even consider himself above it. it's quite another for him to go to his death but not really die. then that makes his principle pretty hollow. everyone else should be prepared to die because they actually will die; Lelouch was prepared to die but got out of it. he gets another chance that no one else gets, when the power of sticking to his principle was that in the end, he considered himself on the same level as even his enemies in at least that one regard: he too should be willing to take the consequence.

i'm not sure why anyone would consider that an improvement for his character. it cuts the tragic hero qualities out from under him and makes him look silly, and makes all that talk earlier look empty.

[wielder]

ShadowCell: I don't think we'll ever agree, since I think Lelouch would have still obeyed both the letter and the spirit of the law, but the effectiveness of the same is not something he can control. There's no point in framing this as Lelouch "finding" something when this isn't the case of someone who cynically looked for a way to opt out. Which is why I don't believe this invalidates the tragic side of his persona.

I'd see no reason for blaming the man when, under that hypothetical scenario, the enforcement of the universe's metaphysical rules is basically what would have removed that option from the table. If anything, I'd expect that Lelouch himself would have a hard time reconciling this unpredictable outcome with his own true intentions and values, rather than laughing it off like a supervillain who got a free pass. This would be like cynically assuming that Suzaku instantly welcomed the "Live!" Geass with open arms, because it graciously improved his chances of survival, despite the fact this went against his own set of personal ethics and he never came to terms with it until the final arc. If we were to speculate, I'd say Leouch would be similarly conflicted: he did all of this fully expecting and wanting to die, but the world didn't allow him to.

HellCat: I would agree when it comes to the new characters (like, say, Gino) or those who received little screentime. However...I guess one thing is that, especially with the benefits of hindsight and rewatching the series, I don't think it's remotely fair to hate everyone other than Lelouch while only considering him worthy. I can understand that reaction during the broadcast, since I felt likewise, but it's a pretty questionable point of view in the grand scheme of things. Lelouch himself is simultaneously sympathetic and incredibly flawed.

For instance, was Suzaku really deserving of being the target of popular hatred until right before the Zero Requiem? The entire cast is full of people who are flawed and make a lot of mistakes, but several of them at least had good intentions in mind despite their ignorance, stupidity or stubbornness. Those aren't all cardinal sins, as annoying as they can be to witness.

That's not to say nobody is to blame or that some persons aren't fact worse than others. Schneizel in particular is the worst among the survivors in my opinion. I don't like Ougi and his obvious conflict of interest makes his position against Lelouch quite hypocritical, but he's ultimately just a petty man who fell for a girl and let his basic emotions drive him. What's more, once you look at the rest on a case by case basis, the amount of blame tends to vary or go down, not up.

[HellCat]

I wouldn't say that Lelouch is the only likeable character, just that in my eyes alot of the characters that benefited from Zero Requiem don't deserve to. Some characters in fact seemed surprisingly eager to sell Zero out. Kaguya in particular seems surprisingly spiteful for someone who previously had fawned over him and gushed at every turn. I know Lelouch was damned partially by fault evidence (him taking the blame for everything at the Shrine meeting, for instance) but the writing for me never really sold the situation as being the just desserts of Lelouch's tower of lies collapsing. I think we're supposed to feel the Black Knights have been empowered, that they've finally seen through the fog and are now grasping the future themselves....instead they just come off as angry, stupid and petty.

[wielder]

I wouldn't say that Lelouch is the only likeable character, just that in my eyes alot of the characters that benefited from Zero Requiem don't deserve to. Some characters in fact seemed surprisingly eager to sell Zero out. Kaguya in particular seems surprisingly spiteful for someone who previously had fawned over him and gushed at every turn.

To be fair, the most Kaguya ever did against (Emperor) Lelouch was use some pillars to block his Geass during the UFN meeting, but I'd call that more about fear and paranoia than anything else. The truly most spiteful people were those who turned their guns against him and were ready to shoot Lelouch in the hangar during the betrayal.

Which, I'll admit, was pretty sloppily written. I certainly don't think the betrayal episode (and its immediate follow-up) was strong enough. That part of the story was too rushed. Conceptually though, I felt he did deserve it even if the specifics were unconvincing. You can go back and make a long list of "things Lelouch should or shouldn't have done" in order to both improve his trustworthiness among the Black Knights and counter Schneizel's treachery, if he had really wanted to defend himself.

That said, I don't think the idea was to portray the Black Knights as being in the right. They weren't turning against Lelouch because of the truth and nothing but the truth. No, it was a little bit of the truth mixed with a lot of lies and half-truths. If anything, they were left even more in the midst of confusion without Zero and that allowed Schneizel to manipulate their leaders to do his bidding.

[HellCat]

But we don't see any real comeuppance for the Black Knights. At most, some of them do seem to twig something is wrong when 'Zero' stabs Lelouch and react negatively. Heck, I find it funny that R2 suddenly decided the Cornelia who led several Britannian invasions from the frontlines was apparently more just than Lelouch and Schniziel.

It's a big awkward mess, especially since prior to this the Black Knights have supposed to have been a people's rebellion, the common clay of Japan rising up to take it back. Average, real people forced to be freedom fighters. The writing on this whole part of the story really could have used a few more drafts so the Black Knights didn't come off as "omg zero hate u now >:-("

[wielder]

But we don't see any real comeuppance for the Black Knights. At most, some of them do seem to twig something is wrong when 'Zero' stabs Lelouch and react negatively.

Well, that (to put it lightly in a couple of cases) and they were literally being paraded in front of the whole world on the way to their execution. The show doesn't really go into their feelings before Suzaku/Zero showed up, but I imagine they all must have been quite broken and resigned to their fates.

I guess it would also have been better to extend the epilogue and see them discuss things, apologize to Lelouch/Zero or realize the error of their ways or something along those lines, considering how explicit their anger towards him had been portrayed earlier on.

Heck, I find it funny that R2 suddenly decided the Cornelia who led several Britannian invasions from the frontlines was apparently more just than Lelouch and Schniziel.

It's a big awkward mess, especially since prior to this the Black Knights have supposed to have been a people's rebellion, the common clay of Japan rising up to take it back. Average, real people forced to be freedom fighters. The writing on this whole part of the story really could have used a few more drafts so the Black Knights didn't come off as "omg zero hate u now >:-("

Cornelia wasn't more just than Lelouch, since she was a ruthless conqueror after all, but compared to Schneizel she is the lesser evil by virtue of not willing to go along with his global genocide scheme.

Yes, the writing of the last few episodes should have made the predicament of the Black Knights come across as more sympathetic to the audience, since it all goes little too far too fast with their opposition to Lelouch.

Which takes us back to the old structural flaw of the season, in my opinion, and how due to some external requirements or misguided choices they ended up having to rush towards the conclusion.

[AmuroNT1]

besides, there's some word drama or something where he gets to be a Force ghost and tell everyone the truth after all, or something like that, and then go chill with Yoda and Obi-Wan. so who cares.

Just wanted to remark, what you're talking about here is probably the Miraculous Birthday, one of the final Picture Dramas released. We covered it in the Gundamn! about the first episode of Akito, but in short, it has the characters organizing a festival at Ashford when they get attacked by evil Eunuchs and have to team up to save the school. In the end all the dead characters disappear, Nunnally realizes that it's Lelouch's birthday, and believes that everyone came back one last time to see their friends and say goodbye.

[HellCat]

One thing I will say away from plot concerns- Johnny Yong Bosch did an excellent job as Lelouch. I was never one of those who exactly hated Jun Fukuyama but watching both seasons dubbed for the review he started out strong and only increased for R2. That last sequence where he's giving his final dying command is beautifully done.

To be honest, in general the dub made me warm to alot of characters I didn't like originally. You could argue it might slightly change them by that fact but...I'll take dub Loyd over the Japanese one any day.

[AmuroNT1]

That was one thing that really amused me back in the day. The lovely Celiss Galvea, our main source of Geass information on GameFAQs, was working as a teacher in Japan, and played some of the dub for people she knew. They actually preferred Johnny's performance to Fukuyama's, saying that he felt more natural, and that Fukuyama's forced attempts at sounding malicious were "draining".

Not that I'm saying anything bad about Fukuyama, mind, just relating a funny story.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I first heard about the English cast while walking home from work one day; my (now ex-) girlfriend was attending the con where Bandai was making the announcement, and called up my cell phone to give me minute-by-minute updates. Ah, memories.

[wielder]

The English dub really worked quite well. With the possible exception of Nunnally, whose voice actress sometimes came across as a little too old for the role in my opinion, the cast did a great job and so did whoever adapted the script.

Speaking of interesting trivia, I remember that Bandai said Taniguchi helped pick the main voice actors and I recall some people were a bit disappointed about the selection of JYB back in the day.

Here's a source, for those wondering:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convent ... code-geass

And here's some of the director's comments about the character voices, which are pretty interesting:
http://web.archive.org/web/201110040432 ... ticle_id=4

[HellCat]

Dub Nunnally's voice is pretty bad, but she improves quite a bit when R2 actually starts giving her stuff to actually do.

However, she also ruins 'NANI, MAI HUNNI?', which makes me sad.

[wielder]

Another new PV for Akito the Exiled OVA 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnvFkYo1SW4

[balofo]

PV 2 ENGLISH SUBS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91dfpg5_87o

[balofo]

spoilers so far:

Spoiler

-No C.C, producer said she'll appear in OVA 3, Spring 2014 apparently
-No Lancelot, only in OVA 3 PV along a statue of Charles
-Some guy named Julius Kingsley appears. Is he Lelouch? Same voice and look. Suzaku is escorting him since he's the new Britannia strategist for EU
-Leila fanservice
-Asura survives along his squad and escapes using Slash Harken
-The Alexander squad is launched in a rocket for a space drop. No Alexander floating in space as seen on PV
-Battle is on the 2nd half, beginning is slow character development
-Battle animations surpasses OVA 1
-Lancelot on the PV is hand drawn and is on his characteristic launching pose, no Float equipment
-ED pictures are mostly the same but there are some new ones
-There's a flashback to Akito's past
-Those orange MP Alexanders are actually drones controlled by Leila's Alexander
-Face open mode is seen but it seems it's just a berserk mode
-Vercingetorix is seen at least transforming
-Brain Raid System was stabilized on the Type 02 Alexanders, and all of them use them in battle. Perhaps it's when the head sensors become red

Also keep in mind that Julius Caesar fought Vercingetorix. Foreshadowing?