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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:43 am 
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Rawinder wrote:
LightningCount wrote:
A few more frames and a bloody face doesn't change the fact that the whole situation was put upon us: the sudden rush of flashbacks in the previous/same episode, and then Andrei's laughable, irrational assertions against his father. Maybe if Andrei wasn't such an idiot and the whole thing wasn't spur of the moment (much like Nena's Halavy wedding "fun"), it would have been more tragic.


But Andrei acting irrational and spur-of-the-moment was what made it tragic. I'm really not sure what you're complaining about here.


Quite true. Andrei's actually useful in that episode, as he shows what I think was the true message of the show; If he hadn't simply reacted due to his emotions surrounding his Mother's death, he could have come to understand his Father and may have found happiness Instead, he has to live with the burden of knowing he killed his innocent Father.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Tell me, did Wing or SEED, or a majority of Gundam for that matter have a guy as over-the-top, Saturday-morning-cartoon goofy as this in a war drama? It's a waste of a character and a disservice to representing a side in the conflict. His course was undetermined by his failure in his first battle in Season 1. We've seen plenty of anime military pilots as boastful as that take their licks, like Isamu Dyson from Macross Plus, but they don't let that loudmouthed boastfulness turn into raw, Three-Stooges slapstick. Even the annoying, loudmouthed 0083's Moncha can be taken more seriously. After episode 1, I had no idea that Patrick would turn into such a butt of all jokes, so it bothered me.


He's not a waste of character. He's generally loved by people in these boards, and the Japanese have great support for Patrick as well. No, Wing or SEED or the majority of the Gundam series never had a goof like Patrick, but it's considered that Patrick's one of the bright and unique spots of the show. He's definitely not meant to be taken seriously; thus i think you missed the point.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:35 pm 
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Rawinder wrote:
LightningCount wrote:
Tell me, did Wing or SEED, or a majority of Gundam for that matter have a guy as over-the-top, Saturday-morning-cartoon goofy as this in a war drama?


You rang?


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:51 pm 
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Yeah, I think I did miss the point. OK, when all is said and done, I realize why I had such divergent reactions to Gundam 00's Patrick and some of my other beefs as a whole. In summery, since it was an "AD calender," and given some of the director's comments prior to the show airing, I thought it was supposed to be a really serious, unique piece--essentially a "what if" Gundams entered our timeline. I guess I thought it'd be something like Gasaraki (those HRL Tieren suits even remind one of Gasaraki), but carried out better than that SUNRISE anime in overall execution and containing more flair/action. And some elements of the early episodes of Season 1 give a first-time viewer of the series that impression, as it introduces a fair amount of realistic political conflict scenarios. But I see that was just on-the-surface flavoring, not meant to be central to the story except as minor, superficial background material for Setsuna to miraculously go divine-like and say, "Make that change!"

But no use crying over spilled milk. And like I've said, I'm still interested to see how 'Special Edition 1: Celestial Being' turns out. I've seen some trailers that suggest it's on the right track of hitting the high points of the season. Even if I don't like everything about 00 or its overall direction, I've listed before that it has elements I like (and wish had been expanded on).

ORegan wrote:
Rawinder wrote:
LightningCount wrote:
Tell me, did Wing or SEED, or a majority of Gundam for that matter have a guy as over-the-top, Saturday-morning-cartoon goofy as this in a war drama?

You rang?

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Hang up the phone... both of you.


Har, har, har. :P Cute. But, come on, as I understand it, ZZ Gundam was intended to be lighthearted material more often than not. Gundam 00 started out with child soldiers fighting a holy war in a battle-torn city; I just wasn't expecting a character like Patrick to enter that sobering mix. If you needed comic relief to break the tension, it could have been more subtle, rather than zany.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:22 pm 
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I still have to answer this part of the quote:

LightningCount wrote:
Aegis wrote:
And thus, especially considering the target audience, your expectations were a wee too high there. :P Compared to other Gundam series, 00 still in all this took a more serious in depth look at politics and social issues than past series, and to a more believable degree as well given the medium we're talking here. Were you truly expecting a deep down, highly politicized, thought provoking philosophical series even though much of the franchise's main draw involves colourful robots? :P Me, I was more amazed at the fact that 00 even bothered to get as political as it did, not to mention even touch on the subject that series like SEED and Wing propagated: peace via armed conflict and the consequences of those actions.


OK, somebody give me a break here. :roll: First off, mecha series are not off-limits to adult political science--case in point, SUNRISE's own Gasaraki. (And Gundam is no stranger to politics, either). For that matter, 00 was meant as a "third pillar," leaving its age content flexible, and the director said he wanted to look at issues more closely as he started the series in those interviews I noted. This same director ended up doing more religious/ethnic conflict politics in his FullMetal Alchemist, and that was a story about the mythical Philosopher's Stone!


Excuse me, but considering the fact that I'm an adult myself who still enjoys watching mecha series and other things animated, I would like to think that I understand this point better than anyone here? Despite all the drama and political intrigue that the Gundam franchise poured out, its audience was still intended for the younger viewer, especially when we're talking about the latest incarnations with a more tighter grip on censorship. For all its vaunted depth that 00 claimed to give, and it did have some depth, it would be alot more surprising if the show did cater more intellectually towards the mature viewer, especially given the timeslot it was put into when it aired in Japan.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:03 pm 
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Aegis wrote:
Excuse me, but considering the fact that I'm an adult myself who still enjoys watching mecha series and other things animated, I would like to think that I understand this point better than anyone here? Despite all the drama and political intrigue that the Gundam franchise poured out, its audience was still intended for the younger viewer, especially when we're talking about the latest incarnations with a more tighter grip on censorship. For all its vaunted depth that 00 claimed to give, and it did have some depth, it would be alot more surprising if the show did cater more intellectually towards the mature viewer, especially given the timeslot it was put into when it aired in Japan.


I apologize if I somehow offended you with my words. I wasn't going after anyone's age, and I'm no kid either, so I'm not sure where that came in. I was just trying to note that 00 sometimes gets put on a pedestal "content-wise" above the other Gundam series, when it didn't really raise the bar. I can see what you're saying about age limitations, but I find anime--and Gundam--standards rather confusing. With SEED you had guys blowing up like bloody balloons from Gamma ray exposure and soldiers getting shot out of their cockpits. And with 00, I mean, you start the show off with a religious/ethnic conflict where there's child soldiers and people dying. And there's occasional meetings with political bodies like the AEU board room and the leaders of the Union and HRL throughout the early episodes. They even have soldiers getting burned by Al's rocket bombing in Ceylon. They have a brilliant prologue after episode 1 that shows the map of the world, explains the tri-polar Cold War situation, and shows off the Orbital Elevators that are being talked about by countries in our own century.

At the series' beginning, I saw that the maturity/gravity was already there in the topics and visuals; I didn't need them to go much, if any, further than that. (After all, by even having those topics, by North American standards, it's out of the realm of kids, and Tomino, the creator of Gundam, stated recently that he doesn't want animation to just be for kids). Anyway, Gundam 00 just had to keep the politics and real-world global consequences consistent from where it started, spending more time on each global power's situation and relationship to the world, developing them. If they kept that consistent, it wouldn't be any more overly political or overly adult than Gundam Wing, which also had fictional world powers play with the principles of real-world politics in global regions. That's what I was hoping for at the least after watching the first few episodes.

EDIT: So, the cover for 00SE1 has been released http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2519/3938367080_b2842edb55_o.jpg

This cover seems a little limiting for a montage of Season 1. Perhaps it means there will be more development of Neil and further interaction with Lyle/their homeland?

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:34 am 
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LightningCount wrote:
I apologize if I somehow offended you with my words. I wasn't going after anyone's age, and I'm no kid either, so I'm not sure where that came in. I was just trying to note that 00 sometimes gets put on a pedestal "content-wise" above the other Gundam series, when it didn't really raise the bar. I can see what you're saying about age limitations, but I find anime--and Gundam--standards rather confusing. With SEED you had guys blowing up like bloody balloons from Gamma ray exposure and soldiers getting shot out of their cockpits. And with 00, I mean, you start the show off with a religious/ethnic conflict where there's child soldiers and people dying. And there's occasional meetings with political bodies like the AEU board room and the leaders of the Union and HRL throughout the early episodes. They even have soldiers getting burned by Al's rocket bombing in Ceylon. They have a brilliant prologue after episode 1 that shows the map of the world, explains the tri-polar Cold War situation, and shows off the Orbital Elevators that are being talked about by countries in our own century.

At the series' beginning, I saw that the maturity/gravity was already there in the topics and visuals; I didn't need them to go much, if any, further than that. (After all, by even having those topics, by North American standards, it's out of the realm of kids, and Tomino, the creator of Gundam, stated recently that he doesn't want animation to just be for kids). Anyway, Gundam 00 just had to keep the politics and real-world global consequences consistent from where it started, spending more time on each global power's situation and relationship to the world, developing them. If they kept that consistent, it wouldn't be any more overly political or overly adult than Gundam Wing, which also had fictional world powers play with the principles of real-world politics in global regions. That's what I was hoping for at the least after watching the first few episodes.


While I do think 00 does more to approach real world issues (like terrorism, religious conflicts, etc. which has already been touched on in this thread) than most--if not all--other Gundam stories, I also think you're looking a little too much into it. The socio-political elements are essentially just backdrops for Celestial Being's armed interventions, as a way of establishing CB's credibility as a legitimate threat to the world's status quo. At its core, the show is and has always been about Celestial Being's effect on the world and the positive/negative repercussions of their actions, and--despite the differences between s1 and s2--I don't think the show every strayed from that.

Also, much as I like Gundam Wing (more than most people I'd wager), I don't think you can really cite that as an example of real-world politics at play. Most of the people/countries in the AC universe are too sheepish and almost always gather around the major powers in the story (Oz/Romefeller, Sanc Kingdom, the "colony delegation", etc) rather than acting out themselves. While that says a lot about the mentality of people in the AC timeline, I don't think it's really indicative of real-world politics (e.g. no power bloc or country in the real world would so easily cowtow to groups like the Alliance or Romefeller).

LightningCount wrote:
EDIT: So, the cover for 00SE1 has been released http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2519/3938367080_b2842edb55_o.jpg

This cover seems a little limiting for a montage of Season 1. Perhaps it means there will be more development of Neil and further interaction with Lyle/their homeland?


I think they're just doing covers of the Meisters for the DVDs. SE1 will be Setsuna and the Lockons, SE2 will be Setsuna and Allelujah, and SE3 will be Setsuna and Tieria.

I believe the Blu-ray is using the Setsuna/Ribbons pic as a cover.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:55 am 
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I did initially have the same criticisms of Patrick. Being from the UK, he was the representative of my corner of the globe and it was a bit concerning to see that we apparently got a loud mouth idiot whilst the other 2 blocks got multi layered aces. Especially after Sunrise had just given us Geass with the 'evil Britain' and Destiny with the 'evil Western world conspiracy' stuff. But in time I got over it. As others have said, we eventually got characters like Kati on the AEU side and Patrick proved talented in his own way (you could argue he's the one really responsible for Neil's death). Even the physical comedy is a Gundam tradition. I can name a ton of moments, like a Gouf pilot shimmying down the leg out of fear or the ship captain miming to hit Quess' father in frustration, that display this. Probably the most extreme example I can give is G, where the Sai Saici episodes especially used things like sweatdrops and crazy cartoon faces. The show made Patrick being a joke into a strength, especially in season 2 where his constant survival rate is mocked with both a nickname and Kati ordering him to pilot her plane so it'll survive. He was well handled comic relief and it got even better when he got to have some real heroic moments at the end :)

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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:29 pm 
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Just some thoughts:

Rawinder wrote:
While I do think 00 does more to approach real world issues (like terrorism, religious conflicts, etc. which has already been touched on in this thread) than most--if not all--other Gundam stories, I also think you're looking a little too much into it. The socio-political elements are essentially just backdrops for Celestial Being's armed interventions, as a way of establishing CB's credibility as a legitimate threat to the world's status quo. At its core, the show is and has always been about Celestial Being's effect on the world and the positive/negative repercussions of their actions, and--despite the differences between s1 and s2--I don't think the show every strayed from that.


Yes, I see what you're saying. I just thought that since CB's effect was on these world powers, they'd get more time to react before being thrust into a conglomerate alliance after just 13 episodes of a 50 episode run. I thought the relationship between CB and the world would be more dynamic than what it evolved into by the halfway point and even a little before that: a sort of homogeneous good vs. evil showdown. And on that note, I think the quote might be an inflated assessment on how it "approaches real world issues more than other Gundams." Here's why I say that: Taribia, Moralia, Azadistan--these reflective conflicts were all within the first 13 episodes and the main thrust of them was handled quickly, within one or two episodes at most. By Season 2, any divergent conflicts from CB vs. A-LAWS were covered/erased by Momento Mori more often than not. In the end, as you say, it was primarily about CB as a force of change, then freedom/justice, rather than any political realities--which were only really touched on within the first quarter of the series. I would have preferred an expansion of that first quarter over more episodes, but the need to have the time skip pretty much crippled that possibility. (Plus, ironically, CB didn't get fully developed in the series itself, as it seemed to have an endless supply of unseen bases/resources, and its connection points to the world like Harvey and the Observers were all axed without much in-series detail).

Rawinder wrote:
Also, much as I like Gundam Wing (more than most people I'd wager), I don't think you can really cite that as an example of real-world politics at play. Most of the people/countries in the AC universe are too sheepish and almost always gather around the major powers in the story (Oz/Romefeller, Sanc Kingdom, the "colony delegation", etc) rather than acting out themselves. While that says a lot about the mentality of people in the AC timeline, I don't think it's really indicative of real-world politics (e.g. no power bloc or country in the real world would so easily cowtow to groups like the Alliance or Romefeller).


...Yet, in this matter, I don't think 00 did anything really different. For instance, Moralia's AEU-supported PMCs, Taribia's sponsorship by the Union, Azadistan's dealings with the UN and Union, Katheron's representation of dissent, CB's representation of reform...how were any of these different than the way people rallied around organizations in Wing. In truth, in today's multi-polar world, things are still interconnected, so it's not uncommon to have economic or security ties with countries, groups of countries, or organizations. Once I realized that 00 would be using fictional countries reflecting real or theoretical countries, that didn't bother me with 00, just as it didn't bother me with Wing. But, what made Wing stand out from 00's execution in my own opinion, is that it kept the political relationships more fluid in the tumult of the times, rather than what became the rigid A-LAWS/Innovades arrangement after the tumult caused by CB. (Examples of that fluidity in Wing: The initial Alliance subjugation, the colony doctors' rebellion, the Alliance moderates' plans for peace, the OZ coup, the enduring Alliance factions/rebels opposing or allying with OZ in various countries like China, the colony delegation and Alliance Space Forces' dealings with OZ, the factionalization of OZ, the rise and infighting of Romefeller, the rise and fall of the Sanc Kingdom, the White Fang coup/rebellion, and all along, even the Gundam pilots themselves didn't stay within one structure). If you had to have the A-LAWS and a Federation that had hardly any change outside of Hercury and Kati's rarely seen on-screen attempts during the series itself (outside epilogue), I wish it'd been a sequel series, rather than a season.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:32 am 
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LightningCount wrote:
I apologize if I somehow offended you with my words. I wasn't going after anyone's age, and I'm no kid either, so I'm not sure where that came in.


Well, the age thing may have been overblown, but consider this: you tell me to 'give me a break', roll eyes, and then proceed to 'explain' how 'mecha series doesn't have to be off-limits to adult political science' after I made a note that 00 for all intents and purposes the series still catered to the younger masses, meanwhile I've already seen my fair share of how all sorts of series has handled all kinds of sensitive matters like, say, religion, and you're wondering why I was shaking my head at that statement? That little response simply said to me that I 'apparently don't get it'.

Regardless, my point anyways was that as far as I'm concerned, this is Gundam, a series that has traditionally been catered to younger fans with, at best, a little bit of something for the older viewers. When it was said that political issues and armed interventions would be looked at, I simply read it as being looked at in a different light, or looked at that other Gundam series hasn't delved into in the past. And as such, it delivered where I expected the series to deliver. Expecting the series to end up becoming a great big political and societal saga really is reading too much into it.

I also have to note that in spite of the fact that broadcast standards have noticeably become more stringent, Japan still has a looser grip on what can or cannot be shown to young viewers compared to the stuff we have now. They are a heck of a lot less insecure when it comes to presenting blood and ethnic issues, so no surprise with SEED that a whole bunch of people got liquefied, and no surprise in 00 that we see an introduction involving one child soldier who's past involves offing his parents. Broadcasting at times has been confusing, yes, but not in this case.

One other thing about Tomino: last I checked, in an interview, he would actually rather produce an anime for young viewers than he would for adults. It's part of why he's more sane now than he was in the past.

At any rate, I don't disagree that 00 doesn't have faults, and some I certainly acknowledge. I just personally think that some of the ones you mentioned, they're rather unfounded.

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:00 am 
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Aegis wrote:
Expecting the series to end up becoming a great big political and societal saga really is reading too much into it...At any rate, I don't disagree that 00 doesn't have faults, and some I certainly acknowledge. I just personally think that some of the ones you mentioned, they're rather unfounded.


Sorry about the "eye roll," it's just that I kept getting hit over the head over the course of the series' SyFy broadcast about how much more in-depth 00 is than the rest of Gundam, and I still don't buy it. (It had the potential to be, but it didn't stick with it IMO). So, it wasn't meant as an attack on you; it was just a statement of exasperation from my experience with the series. In the end, as you say, it would seem I had the wrong expectations for the series and the wrong reactions to the early episodes' content. As I've noted in the interim posts, at the least, I thought the more dynamic conflict of the first 13 episodes was going to last longer and be explored longer; I didn't expect it to be about a united army and Innovators--or, if I did, I didn't think it'd take up so much of the episode count. But it's a moot point now.

By the way, I looked it up, and you were right about Mr. Tomino not being heavily pro-adult content for animation; though he's not truly against it, either. To him, it's what the story calls for:

"But one thing I think is very unique to the Gundam series is that you have heroes and you have enemies, but they are both viewed as people with concerns. They are both viewed equally. Before I started working in this genre, any enemies were always foreign agents. The fact that for the first time, we introduced human beings as both heroes and villains, meant that over time, as the storyline progressed, sometimes people would change sides. You can see this was a completely radical approach for this genre. In fact, it brought these stories into the realm of regular human dramas and I think that's a step even the Disney films, despite their great technology, were not able to enter.

So I don't think that we started out trying to create a simple storyline simply because it was for children. That's not the approach that we took at all. What we were trying to do was tell the story of a war. As a result, these were the kind of characters that appeared. The fact that these characters were slightly different from actual people, and that they involved these suits, was just sort of a side effect. The original story was about human beings.

I come from a cinematic background. I have a simple belief in regard to films. That is that these are moving pictures. Moving pictures should be used to tell stories, and it doesn't really matter whether the end audience is going to be people of a certain age, or children, adults, etc. I think fundamentally, if you have a story to tell, you should just tell your story."
(Animenewsnetwork.com September 14th, 2009 press conference interview).

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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:22 pm 
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Rawinder wrote:
I think they're just doing covers of the Meisters for the DVDs. SE1 will be Setsuna and the Lockons, SE2 will be Setsuna and Allelujah, and SE3 will be Setsuna and Tieria.

I believe the Blu-ray is using the Setsuna/Ribbons pic as a cover.

No, all formats use the Setsuna/Lockons cover:
http://dbeat.bandaivisual.co.jp/shinsak ... gundam00sp
That Setsuna/Ribbons illustration was probably just a placeholder.


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:10 pm 
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This thread has been destickied now that the 00 season 2 dub is over.


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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:55 pm 
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So what exactly are inovators? Are they half robot? I know they bleed and can die like a human but do we know if they are born or manufactured and do they grow old? I know tieria was always like "so this is what it means to be human."

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:26 am 
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As for the Innovades:

-They don't grow old, they have nanomachines that prevent them from aging.
-They're not mechanicals robots, they're purely biological.
-I guess you can say that they are manufactured or made. There's tens of thousands of them and many share the same DNA template. IE Ribbons Almark and Sky Eclipse share the same template and thus look exactly the same.

They're kinda like "biological robots" I guess. Like robots, except that they're biologically based rather than mechanically based.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:26 pm 
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If they don't age then do we know the age of Tieria and Ribbons? If they are supposed to be hundereds of years old then they sure are not wise at all. Most act the way they look, like teenagers.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:52 pm 
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since when did age correspond to wisdom


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:06 pm 
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ShadowCell wrote:
since when did age correspond to wisdom


I believe the famous quote goes "with age comes wisdom". It is not always a given off course and there are always exceptions. I mean you still have 32 year old men living at home in their moms basement being jerk mods on forums and not being wise enough to get out in the world. But typically you have people who learn from mistakes throughout your life with age and gain wisdom. the saying also goes "youth is wasted on the young".

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:07 pm 
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you need to meet more old people, man

although either way i guess it's irrelevant since we're talking about ageless bio-android-ish things that apparently spend the better parts of their lives asleep inside capsules in a cartoon...


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:50 pm 
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ShadowCell wrote:
you need to meet more old people, man

although either way i guess it's irrelevant since we're talking about ageless bio-android-ish things that apparently spend the better parts of their lives asleep inside capsules in a cartoon...


Oh gosh what a jerk. Are you serously going to pull the cartoon card? I am new here but I thought the point was to talk about cartoons and have fun. If you don't want to have a conversation about a "cartoon" then why come?

On a side note I think that since we saw shinburg froze himself we can asume that these inovades where also frozen and came into action when the plan started to escalate. Man was that dude smart to have all of this come into place hundereds of years later.

_________________
"Our spirits are aflame. Can we see the fire, there is nothing that we cannot defeat. And now this hand of mine is burning red. Its loud roar tells me to grasp victory!"
Domon Kasshu


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