The Official Gundam 00 Season 2 Thread Mk VII: The Final

[MindlessFire]

It's pretty much a matter of opinion. Some people greatly enjoyed the second season while some disliked it with great intensity that they wouldn't accept the S2 as canon and basically wrote out of existence (much like Gundam Seed Destiny). If you look at Mizushima's earlier work the first anime adaption of Full Metal Alchemist, many fans were not satisfied how the show turned out. Most of the character's personality were slightly altered (they made Ed less badass and Al still has to draw circles) were given wildly different interpretation, not to mention 2/3 of the entire plot was changed. The ending also ended in a cliffhanger which would then be resolved in the later movie. With the 2nd adpation being released I wouldn't be surprised if a civil war erupts in the Full Metal Alchemist fanbase.

Speaking of which, what's this movie adaption of Gundam 00 they're releasing before they release the movie sequel in 2010? Are they releasing Gundam 00 Special Edition like they did with the Gundam Seed SE movies? Why are they screening it theaters if its just an movie abridged version of Gundam 00?

Edit: I heard the ratings 00 S2 Gundam where lower than its predecessor Gundam Seed Destiny. I don't suppose anyone has episode by episode rating charts to verify?

[pd771]

I have only been on these threads since 00 reached episode 24 I believe so all I've heard was the disappointment people had when it ended and how this and that was dumb and what not. Before that point I hadn't seen any of the other episodes since I wanted to sit through them in one sitting. I'm sure people were happy with it towards the beginning and middle but it seems like at the end almost everyone exploded with complaints without just taking it for what it is.

It's been like 5 people I've seen really dislike it, most people like it, and and some really like it. It's just the people who really disliked the show posted a lot more. Oh, and on other sites the number seems a lot higher, but most people I've heard complain were upset it wasn't Wing 2.0 because they are Wing fanboys.

[Newtype87]

It's pretty much a matter of opinion. Some people greatly enjoyed the second season while some disliked it with great intensity that they wouldn't accept the S2 as canon and basically wrote out of existence (much like Gundam Seed Destiny). If you look at Mizushima's earlier work the first anime adaption of Full Metal Alchemist, many fans were not satisfied how the show turned out. Most of the character's personality were slightly altered (they made Ed less badass and Al still has to draw circles) were given wildly different interpretation, not to mention 2/3 of the entire plot was changed. The ending also ended in a cliffhanger which would then be resolved in the later movie. With the 2nd adpation being released I wouldn't be surprised if a civil war erupts in the Full Metal Alchemist fanbase.

To be fair to Mizushima, more than half of the manga didn't exist at the time he was doing the anime. From what I've heard, he and Arakawa agreed to take the anime in a different direction compared to the manga. Hence, the different origins of the Homunculi and the existence of Dante and Al never learning how to transmute without a circle or the existence of the Red Stones as opposed to the Philosopher's Stone. It's not like he'd have known all of the things that are currently going on in the manga when he made the show.

As for me, I liked S2. I don't think it quite measures up to S1, but considering the high bar that S1 set for me, I was open to it not quite matching the first half of the show. As it is, the show as a whole is one of my favorites.

[Red Comet90]

I have only been on these threads since 00 reached episode 24 I believe so all I've heard was the disappointment people had when it ended and how this and that was dumb and what not. Before that point I hadn't seen any of the other episodes since I wanted to sit through them in one sitting. I'm sure people were happy with it towards the beginning and middle but it seems like at the end almost everyone exploded with complaints without just taking it for what it is.

It's been like 5 people I've seen really dislike it, most people like it, and and some really like it. It's just the people who really disliked the show posted a lot more. Oh, and on other sites the number seems a lot higher, but most people I've heard complain were upset it wasn't Wing 2.0 because they are Wing fanboys.

You are probably right about it being 5 people bashing it for quite some time, but it just stuck to me and its like whenever I see someone bash at the show I can't help but defend it since I thoroughly enjoyed it as a whole. Don't get me wrong though I highly disliked what they did with Allelujah, but to be honest what else could you do with his character.

I may as well give my 2 cents as to why I think people dislike it or say its not as good. S1 provided nearly no answers to any of the questions it raised and if an answer was given it merely raised more questions for S2 to answer. So with no hints on what was coming in S2 everyone was excited to have every single question answered and it raised the expectation level to something they were not able to reach because S2 was too much to be crammed into 25 episodes. Thats my opinion anyways but I still love the entire show even with its faults. (Heck none of them are perfect to be honest)

[Chris]

Can we just get off of who did or didn't like the show? The whole point of this thread is to discuss the series, not get so hung up about what groups of people liked the show or didn't.

[Red Comet90]

Sorry about that Chris. I thought anything could be discussed concerning 00 in general on this thread.

I have been meaning to ask this question but it keeps slipping my mind and I finally remember what it was. During one of the episodes Patrick comments on how he's been nicknamed Colasour the Cockroach. I just found out recently that it could be taken as Colasour the Immortal as well. Is this one of those cases where two different words are spelled differently but sound the same?

[azrael]

I have been meaning to ask this question but it keeps slipping my mind and I finally remember what it was. During one of the episodes Patrick comments on how he's been nicknamed Colasour the Cockroach. I just found out recently that it could be taken as Colasour the Immortal as well. Is this one of those cases where two different words are spelled differently but sound the same?

Well,
"cockroach" is "gokiburi" or written as ごきぶり
"immortal" is "fushi" or written as 不死 or ふし

Unless they mean that old saying that the only things which can survive in a disaster are cockroaches and twinkies...

[Red Comet90]

I have been meaning to ask this question but it keeps slipping my mind and I finally remember what it was. During one of the episodes Patrick comments on how he's been nicknamed Colasour the Cockroach. I just found out recently that it could be taken as Colasour the Immortal as well. Is this one of those cases where two different words are spelled differently but sound the same?

Well,
"cockroach" is "gokiburi" or written as ごきぶり
"immortal" is "fushi" or written as 不死 or ふし

Unless they mean that old saying that the only things which can survive in a disaster are cockroaches and twinkies...

I don't think its referring to that joke. I looked it up on wikipedia and it said that he was nicknamed Immortal Colasour not Colasour the Immortal so in Japanese it says 不死みのコーラサワ Fujimi no Colasour.

[Wingnut]

I think that one group went with cockroach mainly because it went better with Kati's next line about the nickname not being a complement, yet still meant essentially the same thing.
However, Fujimi sounds a lot closer to fushi than gokiburi, so it's most likely the correct, or at least the more literal translation.

[Lans]

Colasour the what? Cockroach?!

Man, that really fit. Can't blame them to put it instead of immortal.

[Red Comet90]

I think that one group went with cockroach mainly because it went better with Kati's next line about the nickname not being a complement, yet still meant essentially the same thing.
However, Fujimi sounds a lot closer to fushi than gokiburi, so it's most likely the correct, or at least the more literal translation.

Yeah, it makes more sense if they translate it as Cockroach since her line implies thats it derogatory and not in any way a compliment. So its safe to assume its something thats more or less lost in translation?

[Lans]

So, few weeks after Gundam 00 S2 finale. and Saji ended up being... what?!

a happy version of Katz?

any comment about this particular character, love/hate? IMO even after so much plot twisting for him and Louise, Saji is pretty much the same old Saji just with some battle experience. A static or lack character growth? Well, I'm not so much into it but it might develop into a good discussion since some of us here have huge hope for him at the start of the 2nd seasons.

[azrael]

Yeah, it makes more sense if they translate it as Cockroach since her line implies thats it derogatory and not in any way a compliment. So its safe to assume its something thats more or less lost in translation?

I don't think it's lost-in-translation. Just a poor choice. A better choice would be "Invulnerable Colasour". Calling him a "cockroach" would be much more insulting and you would think he would take offense to that. Calling him "immortal" or "invulnerable" is much more sarcastic and subtle.

[Red Comet90]

Yeah, it makes more sense if they translate it as Cockroach since her line implies thats it derogatory and not in any way a compliment. So its safe to assume its something thats more or less lost in translation?

I don't think it's lost-in-translation. Just a poor choice. A better choice would be "Invulnerable Colasour". Calling him a "cockroach" would be much more insulting and you would think he would take offense to that. Calling him "immortal" or "invulnerable" is much more sarcastic and subtle.

I could see how its more subtle to call him invunerable or immotal but I don't see a connection between the word cockroach and immortal/ invunerable.

any comment about this particular character, love/hate? IMO even after so much plot twisting for him and Louise, Saji is pretty much the same old Saji just with some battle experience. A static or lack character growth? Well, I'm not so much into it but it might develop into a good discussion since some of us here have huge hope for him at the start of the 2nd seasons.

I actually liked Saji throughout the entire show. I'd have to say that he does change in S2 though. At the beginning of S2 we see how much he hates CB blaming them for everything and soon afterwards he causes the attack on the Cataron base. He changes at that point but not much afterwards. I just think he was meant to be one of the examples of how GN particles can cause people to understand each other similar to Lyle and Anew (but not so similar in the end)

[Dean_the_Young]

So, few weeks after Gundam 00 S2 finale. and Saji ended up being... what?!

a happy version of Katz?

any comment about this particular character, love/hate? IMO even after so much plot twisting for him and Louise, Saji is pretty much the same old Saji just with some battle experience. A static or lack character growth? Well, I'm not so much into it but it might develop into a good discussion since some of us here have huge hope for him at the start of the 2nd seasons.

...

How could you not have seen Saji's changes across season 2? His actions, and his reactions to the consequences thereof, were like the main point of a few episodes. Over the course of the series, Saji went from a self-centric viewpoint narrow-visioned angry irresponsible pacifist fixated on the past to a responsible, mature, and resolved young man who repented for his past mistakes and fought to protect and looked towards the future.

How in the world is Saji a static character? Katz was a kid who wouldn't grow up or stop acting on his own. Saji did grow up. It's far more than one being happy and the other being dead.

[Shinji_Shinigami]

well i won't say iam quiete happy with the ending...but since there is the movie we will see if 00 will finally recieve an "true" ending.

but what i would be wondering is how are they going to pull it?
mean tierria is now some sort of addon to veda so one pilot is out cold and the other gundams are thrashed.

Will they bring endless walz like new looking versions on the market and make saji a new pilot o_O?

I mean he was potraied in the series very much so it would be fair for him to play a quiete important role in the movie and celestial being is missing employees anyway....

but they left so much unanswered i doubt one movie will make up for it...or what do you think?

[MindlessFire]

How could you not have seen Saji's changes across season 2? His actions, and his reactions to the consequences thereof, were like the main point of a few episodes. Over the course of the series, Saji went from a self-centric viewpoint narrow-visioned angry irresponsible pacifist fixated on the past to a responsible, mature, and resolved young man who repented for his past mistakes and fought to protect and looked towards the future.

How in the world is Saji a static character? Katz was a kid who wouldn't grow up or stop acting on his own. Saji did grow up. It's far more than one being happy and the other being dead.

I would also like to add he even learns from his entire experience being with Celestial Being crew. In Saji's happy ending with Louise, he comments that they as civilians cannot just be simply ignorant about what's going around in the world just because they're living the good prosperous life. That's what gave rise to the ALAWS's power, and Gundamn talked about it in its recent episode where "If the citizens ignore their corrupt government and military because they're prosperous, does that by nature make they complicit enablers of that corruption?"

[Lans]

Well, he did learn more stuffs, learning some new tricks, experience some near death experience, take the blame for the lost of human lives, care to the people around the world, broaden his view a bit like any normal people should do; but it doesn’t mean his character is growing. IMO, Saji ended up being the same Saji at the start of the series.

Saji’s last moments aboard the 0 Raiser felt like (sorry) baby, cried “Louise” at any given circumstance. He would even die at Louise’s hand if Setsuna magical GN lights fail to occur. How could anyone say his character growth? In the end he still unable to put value on his very own life, his comrades, his friends, or other people.

Yes, he eventually fired at the suicidal and very obvious enemy the gagas (to save Louise). If it’s another MS I think he couldn’t bring his finger on the trigger. I think he still blindly believing in his utopian-dream until the end.

I couldn’t say he’s the same naive Saji. He did learn all those stuff and it should change his view. But apart from that, he’s still the same character, the same boy at the start of the 2nd Season. In this, I’m actually thinking. If someone else is thrown into Saji’s shoes or position he/she should come out a more interesting person than Saji is. Good or Bad, better/worse is up to speculation, but we did know about several boys from different universe that hopped into the Gundam-ish organization and end up being interesting characters.

and please, no offense to anyone who actually like Saji. I don't hate Saji, just like Al/Hall they are victims of bad story telling.

[Deus]

While I find your point about Saji interesting, lans, I must ask: what reason would Saji have -had- to shoot at anybody else? Right from the get-go Saji told Setsuna "I'm not doing this to kill innocent people." To which Setsuna pretty much kept saying "no duh, I'll take care of everybody else, you just deal with Louise." However, right before the endgame, Saji did say at long last that he was not going to hesitate to fight anymore. Granted, this might seem like a stretch on my part to say this - but in my opinion Saji could only have meant by that statement that he was ready to kill for his future, and for Louise. It could have meant that he was finally ready to fight period... but that would seem horribly redundant since he's been doing that willingly for half of S2.

He placed great value on other people's lives, but in the end he still fought and killed many people through Setsuna. And then with the Gaga's - finally killed himself. I agree, with someone else in his shoes Saji would have been a more fascinating character. And as a consequence - Gundam 00 would have been a much less of a quality production because of it. You just can't have two dynamic, strong and interesting characters working closely together. I don't think Saji believes in his old utopia anymore. Yes, he still -desires- that utopia, but I think by the end he realized it isn't going to happen. He'd have to settle for a compromise, which is why in the end he decided that even he could take a life in order to make a better future.

That's my thoughts on it anyway. I liked S2 mostly because I thought the characters finally stopped all the insipid preaching that bogged down S1 in endless rhetoric and we finally got to see them actually fighting to build the new world Aeolia envisioned. I liked that. I liked how they got all the boring stuff out of the way in S1, allowing S2 to get right to the point and tell the ending of this story.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, he did learn more stuffs, learning some new tricks, experience some near death experience, take the blame for the lost of human lives, care to the people around the world, broaden his view a bit like any normal people should do; but it doesn’t mean his character is growing. IMO, Saji ended up being the same Saji at the start of the series.

Saji’s last moments aboard the 0 Raiser felt like (sorry) baby, cried “Louise” at any given circumstance. He would even die at Louise’s hand if Setsuna magical GN lights fail to occur. How could anyone say his character growth? In the end he still unable to put value on his very own life, his comrades, his friends, or other people.

Yes, he eventually fired at the suicidal and very obvious enemy the gagas (to save Louise). If it’s another MS I think he couldn’t bring his finger on the trigger. I think he still blindly believing in his utopian-dream until the end.

I couldn’t say he’s the same naive Saji. He did learn all those stuff and it should change his view. But apart from that, he’s still the same character, the same boy at the start of the 2nd Season. In this, I’m actually thinking. If someone else is thrown into Saji’s shoes or position he/she should come out a more interesting person than Saji is. Good or Bad, better/worse is up to speculation, but we did know about several boys from different universe that hopped into the Gundam-ish organization and end up being interesting characters.

and please, no offense to anyone who actually like Saji. I don't hate Saji, just like Al/Hall they are victims of bad story telling.

In other words, a 180 about turn from what he was in the very beginning of the series isn't development? There was a time when Saji wouldn't pull a trigger to save his own life, let alone anyone elses. And when he acted only with his own viewpoint, without taking into account the consequences of his actions. Gaining maturity, responsibility, learning, and resolve is character growth. It's the most fundamental aspect of character development ever: Saji grows up. There's nothing at all static about that.

Saji doesn't want to kill Louise because he loves her, even at the risk of his own life. But that's not immaturity. There are plenty of people like that in the world. Saji's entire role in the 0 Riser, as both he and Setsuna agreed when he became the permanent pilot, is to talk Louise down. There really isn't anything else for him to do once Louise is on the field, and nothing baby about it.

No, it's pretty apparent he fired because Louise's life was in danger, not because the Gagas were suicidal. He didn't fire on any of the other Gagas, after all.

How in the world do you get the idea that Saji believe in anything approaching a utopian world view when that was blown away (a) in Season 1 when he was forced to learn that the happenings of the world could and would affect him to (terrorist bombings, Louise, Kinue), (b) became a major point in the first ten episodes of the season when his unintended actions lead to mass slaughter, and (c) the entire point of his monologue in the epilogue is that civilians can't live like he once did? You're directly arguing against the explicit declarations of the series two or three times over.


I really don't care if you like Saji or not, or thought he was as interesting as possible or not. That's a matter of opinion. But you really have no argument to say that Saji never developed or changed in the series.