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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:49 pm 
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Imperial wrote:
ZZ is the second season of Zeta, after a fashion, but it features a drastic shift in characters, tone, etc. Thematic elements carry over, such as the discussion of Newtypes and the failings of the Federation, and so do characters such as Haman and Bright. However, there is enough brand new material introduced that it is able to stand on its own.

Looking forward to 00's second season with only a few hints as to what it might entail could rub people the wrong way. A great many characters have lived on with very little of the future conflicts explored. There are some nods toward things to come, but it looks like a lot of the same with Celestial Being presumably preparing for another string of interventions. To the unaware, it could very easily appear as a case of repetition.

Those of us acquainted with the second season know that is features some radically different ideas bandied about, such as dropping the three-way cold war angle, but not everyone has that luxury.


I know you're playing devil's advocate, but I don't buy the argument. ZZ is a sequel series, not a second season. It's not comparable at all to 00 because 00 is a single series divided in half from the outset. Also, this is 2009, not 1985. With the internet, if you're watching 00 (either fansubbed or on Sci-Fi) and have a complaint about the layout of the series, there's no excuse for not knowing about the second season.

Duo Himura wrote:
In the second half, the new set of villains would be people who Celestial Being "created" in the same way (ala Louise or Saji, though their anger is actually misplaced against the original Gundam pilots). That is, Celestial Being fighting people who mirror themselves rather than people who are opposite them in mentality. Thus we raise a lot more questions about whether Celestial Being is actually doing any good, and, being rid of our most abjectly evil character, Ali (with the possible exception of Ribbons, but I'm not crazy about him anyway), we push the series towards a grayer moral area on all sides.


See, much like LightningCount, you're complaining about stuff when you haven't even seen the second season (although in his defense he understood this when the issue was raised). This is precisely what the second season is about: Celestial Being fights A-LAWS, which directly resulted from their interventions in the first season. The people in A-LAWS hate Celestial Being, and Celestial Being recognizes that it's fighting to correct its own mistakes.

Duo Himura wrote:
What it really boils down to is "Why kill somebody if you're going to bring them back?" It's kind of typical of Sunrise, and it's getting a little tiresome at this point.


Again, I disagree with this, at least in regards to 00. You're complaining about a bunch of people being killed and then brought back, but that's only in your own mind. They were never dead to begin with, thus the complaint has no merit. If we were talking other Sunrise shows like SEED, DESTINY or Code Geass R2 I would agree, but that's not the case in 00.

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:30 pm 
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Chris wrote:
Duo Himura wrote:
In the second half, the new set of villains would be people who Celestial Being "created" in the same way (ala Louise or Saji, though their anger is actually misplaced against the original Gundam pilots). That is, Celestial Being fighting people who mirror themselves rather than people who are opposite them in mentality. Thus we raise a lot more questions about whether Celestial Being is actually doing any good, and, being rid of our most abjectly evil character, Ali (with the possible exception of Ribbons, but I'm not crazy about him anyway), we push the series towards a grayer moral area on all sides.


See, much like LightningCount, you're complaining about stuff when you haven't even seen the second season (although in his defense he understood this when the issue was raised). This is precisely what the second season is about: Celestial Being fights A-LAWS, which directly resulted from their interventions in the first season. The people in A-LAWS hate Celestial Being, and Celestial Being recognizes that it's fighting to correct its own mistakes.


I realize that, actually. I was simply responding to your statement that killing the series' established antagonists would make thematic consistency impossible. I'm not saying that S2 COULDN'T have brought in villains like that, I'm saying that they could make those characters the focus -without- people like Graham and Ali. Even with them it's possible, but again, the point was "thematic consistency that doesn't involve the original villains."

Also, the fact that the A-Laws seem rather abjectly evil and Ali has always been abjectly evil kind of shoots the idea of moral grayness in the foot, which would have been helped along if, rather than the A-Laws, you had a more reasonable organization who Celestial Being would nonetheless end up in conflict with, for one reason or another (i.e. intervening between them and the rebel faction). Gundam has a real tendency to assign blame for war, and I'm not sure that's always right, especially in a setting that's using real-world conflicts as its basis, presumably to have a commentary that's more suited to modern times. That's getting a little philosophical though, and to be fair, whether or not S2 does -that- I can't judge very well without seeing the rest of the series, it just seems to be the direction in which things are headed.

Anyway, the whole point of making predictions about the direction the series is going to go based on what you know at the time is... that it's based on what you know at the time. I wasn't pleased with some of the decisions in the final episodes of season 1 because I felt like they wouldn't lead to the best possible continuation of the series. It's admittedly a little odd if more of the show is available at that point, but if we're going to look at it that way, why bother still having a thread to discuss the first season?

Chris wrote:
Duo Himura wrote:
What it really boils down to is "Why kill somebody if you're going to bring them back?" It's kind of typical of Sunrise, and it's getting a little tiresome at this point.


Again, I disagree with this, at least in regards to 00. You're complaining about a bunch of people being killed and then brought back, but that's only in your own mind. They were never dead to begin with, thus the complaint has no merit. If we were talking other Sunrise shows like SEED, DESTINY or Code Geass R2 I would agree, but that's not the case in 00.
[/quote]

But you could say "they were never dead," about the characters there, too. I mean, in SEED Waldfeld and Mu died somewhat more on-screen deaths, but nonetheless, a mobile suit exploding in a giant fireball is generally indicative of a character biting it (though maybe -not- anymore... but that seems absurd). If the intent wasn't to make us believe that Ali, Patrick, and/or Graham were dead, then there was no need for their suits to be destroyed so completely--they could have simply retreated, or been shown bailing out. Graham even got as much of an on-screen death as most pilots in that show have had, doing the whole "closeup on the face and then explosion" bit. It gave an illusion of closure which was then undone as much as a couple episodes or as little as 4-5 minutes later, which is why I say it feels pointless, especially in Graham's case.

I will give you that it's nowhere near as bad as SEED and Destiny (never bothered with Code Geass, though I may watch it in the spirit of MST at some point), but even so, at best it was kind of a cheap, -very- temporary trick.

Of course, this is all just my own opinion, at the risk of getting too heated over this.

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Maybe the problem here is that you're insisting on judging everything as it happens. Like, you can't even finish watching the episode before you start judging it. And then, when you find out that your judgment was based on incomplete information, you blame the information for being incomplete rather than your judgment for being made on incomplete information.

So, don't. Sit down and watch the show first.


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:50 pm 
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I know you're playing devil's advocate, but I don't buy the argument. ZZ is a sequel series, not a second season. It's not comparable at all to 00 because 00 is a single series divided in half from the outset.


I agree with you entirely, but it goes back to the connotations of "second season" that I mentioned earlier. Even if it's more appropriate to call the A-Laws conflict the second half of the same show, "Second season" has wormed its way into the vernacular so utterly that it has had time to root. With that idea comes the preconceived notions of how the second part should behave, being viewed as a sequel more so than the second act of the same performance.

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:43 pm 
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Duo Himura wrote:
Anyway, the whole point of making predictions about the direction the series is going to go based on what you know at the time is... that it's based on what you know at the time. I wasn't pleased with some of the decisions in the final episodes of season 1 because I felt like they wouldn't lead to the best possible continuation of the series. It's admittedly a little odd if more of the show is available at that point, but if we're going to look at it that way, why bother still having a thread to discuss the first season?


The whole point of the thread is for people watching it for the first time. The point here is you have all these criticisms of how you personally feel the show should go, even though you haven't seen season 2 yet. Watch what the show actually does before you criticize what you THINK it should be doing.

Duo Himura wrote:
But you could say "they were never dead," about the characters there, too. I mean, in SEED Waldfeld and Mu died somewhat more on-screen deaths, but nonetheless, a mobile suit exploding in a giant fireball is generally indicative of a character biting it (though maybe -not- anymore... but that seems absurd). If the intent wasn't to make us believe that Ali, Patrick, and/or Graham were dead, then there was no need for their suits to be destroyed so completely--they could have simply retreated, or been shown bailing out. Graham even got as much of an on-screen death as most pilots in that show have had, doing the whole "closeup on the face and then explosion" bit. It gave an illusion of closure which was then undone as much as a couple episodes or as little as 4-5 minutes later, which is why I say it feels pointless, especially in Graham's case.


No, you can't say that Waldfeld and Mu "were never dead" because they WERE dead. Fukuda openly admits that he undid Waldfeld's death because he liked the voice actor. Mu's death is an obvious retcon because his helmet was removed from space in the Special Edition. When the show "makes you think" that Graham is dead and shows him to be alive 3 minutes later, it's obvious that he never died. I don't see what the point of this complaint is. It's not as if he appeared to be dead and then came back a chunk of episodes later just to die again, like say Sting in DESTINY. As ShadowCell said, at least wait until the episode ends before you rate your disappointment about someone being supposedly dead and then not dead.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:15 am 
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Chris wrote:
The whole point of the thread is for people watching it for the first time. The point here is you have all these criticisms of how you personally feel the show should go, even though you haven't seen season 2 yet. Watch what the show actually does before you criticize what you THINK it should be doing.


*Raises hand* That would be me. I fail to see why it's not okay for me to make predictions and say whether or not I think that particular turn of events would be a good idea. It seems to me that your complaint about my statements is that I'm making them -now-, when more of the series is available, even though we're in a thread for the first half of Gundam 00. Yes, I'm under informed, but that's why I was posting my thoughts in a thread about the part of the series I've seen, and not the thread for the up-to-date half of the series.

@ Shadow: But if you only made judgments once you had the full story, then you throw out the reactions you have -while- experiencing the story, which is the point of a medium like anime or film, or any kind of media, really. You can't judge a mystery based only on how you felt once you knew the solution, because, while -good- mysteries have clever solutions, the art of telling a mystery is in how you present it, and what you can make the audience believe at the time. Likewise, being excited or disappointed by something in a show isn't an insignificant feeling just because the circumstances that brought it about are later negated.

All I'm saying, is that, first off, I would rather see Ali and Patrick dead, and Graham I'm on the fence about, but -if- they were going to survive, I would rather not have had the false expectation raised for the former two. Again, in Graham's case it wasn't so much a matter of being disappointed as thinking it was really pointless to give him a "death" scene (and that was almost -exactly- how half or more named grunts/recurring villains in Gundam die) and then show that he's okay 3 minutes later. As an audience member, I feel slightly cheated by all this, as it seems that blowing up a mobile suit is no longer an effective way to kill the pilot.

The original point I was trying to make in all this was that it would have been interesting to see what the show would have done with only 2 or so of its named antagonists left alive. That seems to have been lost in all the back and forth.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:35 am 
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The problem with your analogy there is that you aren't judging this "mystery" based on both the reactions you had during it and the way it concluded, because you don't know how it ends--you're just judging it on the way you felt halfway through. So in this case you're making all your judgments about the story after reading only half of it. But you're supposed to read the whole thing before you go passing judgments on it.

So, sit down and watch the rest of the show before you start complaining. 'cuz, I mean, you've only seen half the show. So it's not like you have to judge anything. And you don't even need to judge anything when the show's done, either.

As for "what it would be like if only two antagonists were left alive"...it would be boring, that's what. Because that means season two would have only two at-all-significant characters still familiar to the viewer to start with--one of which is largely unknown and underdeveloped, the other of which is entirely unsympathetic. They'd need a whole new set of characters with which to go through the same "introduce them to us, tell us their backstories, make us care about them" rigamarole as in season one--except this time they would be coming up to the end of the show and not the halfway point. So at that point, you might as well just start a whole new show.

This is still one contiguous story, and it's hard to keep the "contiguous" part if, like you suggest, you take a chainsaw to almost all of the cast--including the characters that the audience has grown most accustomed to.


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:49 am 
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Duo Himura wrote:
The original point I was trying to make in all this was that it would have been interesting to see what the show would have done with only 2 or so of its named antagonists left alive. That seems to have been lost in all the back and forth.


But... why is it supposedly interesting? Why is it even a big deal that certain characters didn't die at all? This is especially true with antagonists, particularly the ones that have been heavily established. It simply sucks to have to go through another half of a season with all new villains when each episode is also a scant twenty minutes here.

Hey, if this was done different and they decide to kill those people off, more power to them. Fact, however, is they survived because the writing made it so, and said surviving characters themselves were either important characters or simply famous enough to warrant more screen time in the near future. Really, I see no critiques or predictions. I merely see quick judgments and nitpicks because events didn't go the way you thought it would. Please... quit nitpicking.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:22 am 
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Duo Himura wrote:
*Raises hand* That would be me. I fail to see why it's not okay for me to make predictions and say whether or not I think that particular turn of events would be a good idea. It seems to me that your complaint about my statements is that I'm making them -now-, when more of the series is available, even though we're in a thread for the first half of Gundam 00. Yes, I'm under informed, but that's why I was posting my thoughts in a thread about the part of the series I've seen, and not the thread for the up-to-date half of the series.


The whole point here is that you're complaining about what you'd like the series to do, even though there's at least 18 more episodes that you haven't seen yet. You need to watch what actually exists, not complain about what you want to exist or you think should exist. If season 2 hadn't aired yet and you were speculating about what you'd like to see, that'd be fine. But the reality is that it's almost over, and you're listing all these things you want to see, even though you know you're behind. That's my problem.

Duo Himura wrote:
The original point I was trying to make in all this was that it would have been interesting to see what the show would have done with only 2 or so of its named antagonists left alive. That seems to have been lost in all the back and forth.


This complaint is at the heart of what bothers me about fans these days. Just because you want some very specific thing to happen and it doesn't, somehow the show is at fault and suffers from poor writing or bad characterization. Isn't it enough to just expect the show not to suck? Why does the show have to follow all these exacting specifications of what should happen, i.e. killing off a bunch of people, introducing a different type of conflict, etc. You're not writing this story, and just because it's not going the way you want it to, it doesn't mean it's bad or poorly conceived.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:40 pm 
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Er... okay, why is everyone interpreting "X would be interesting to see," or "I'm a little disappointed with Y" as me saying OMG THE SHOW SUCKS? Last I checked, I said that I found the show enjoyable but felt that it shot itself in the foot in certain areas. I fail to see why everyone has decided to jump down my throat about whether my OPINIONS are valid.

Aegis wrote:
Duo Himura wrote:
The original point I was trying to make in all this was that it would have been interesting to see what the show would have done with only 2 or so of its named antagonists left alive. That seems to have been lost in all the back and forth.


But... why is it supposedly interesting? Why is it even a big deal that certain characters didn't die at all? This is especially true with antagonists, particularly the ones that have been heavily established. It simply sucks to have to go through another half of a season with all new villains when each episode is also a scant twenty minutes here.


I never said it was a big deal, I said I was a little disappointed that they didn't "stay" dead, because I thought it would be interesting to see the show "reboot" itself to a greater degree. Interesting because it's not something that you see a whole lot, villains who are neither one-arc villains nor major antagonists who stick around for the -entire- show, but characters who die after the first half and are replaced by a new cast. There is a valid point that you then have to worry about introducing the backstories etc. of this new group, but many shows don't stop introducing new characters in their second half, and Gundam 00 appears to be no exception; thus, the question is merely one of how many recurring characters vs. how many new characters (also, how much backstory do Ali and Patrick really have? It would take at most five-ten minutes to establish new characters to the same point). I'm not saying it would automatically make a better show, I'm saying I'd have been interested to see where the series would go if the second half had a -few- pieces less baggage from the first half, more of a clean canvas, so to speak.

Chris wrote:
The whole point here is that you're complaining about what you'd like the series to do, even though there's at least 18 more episodes that you haven't seen yet. You need to watch what actually exists, not complain about what you want to exist or you think should exist. If season 2 hadn't aired yet and you were speculating about what you'd like to see, that'd be fine. But the reality is that it's almost over, and you're listing all these things you want to see, even though you know you're behind. That's my problem.


That's WHY I posted in the thread for Season 1! It's all a matter of perspective anyway--the only real problem here is that you know what happens already and I don't. But then, I guess the question is why are you still hanging around the season 1 thread complaining about someone who's making predictions -based- on season 1? The fact that I may or may not be wrong notwithstanding, I felt like sharing some opinions about the part of the series I had seen, thoughts about where it could go, disappointments I had, etc. Since there was already a thread devoted to only the first half of the series, I -assumed-, erroneously, apparently, that it would be fine to make whatever comments I had, since the people in this thread would understand that we were limiting conversation to the first half of the show. If the attitude here is "sit down and shut up until you've seen the latest episode," then the existence of this thread is pointless.

Quote:
This complaint is at the heart of what bothers me about fans these days. Just because you want some very specific thing to happen and it doesn't, somehow the show is at fault and suffers from poor writing or bad characterization. Isn't it enough to just expect the show not to suck? Why does the show have to follow all these exacting specifications of what should happen, i.e. killing off a bunch of people, introducing a different type of conflict, etc. You're not writing this story, and just because it's not going the way you want it to, it doesn't mean it's bad or poorly conceived.


The closest I ever came to saying this is that I felt Ali damages the series' thematic integrity by being as -evil- as he is. I never said Gundam 00 was poorly written based on what I thought would happen, though I do think there are instances where the writing and characterization aren't terrific in what I've already seen. I said that -right now-, I'm not thrilled that Ali survives: whether he becomes a more interesting character or remains one of the show's weaker points for me is obviously up to how he's handled in the future.

Admittedly, it's not always fair to judge a show based on what it could have been but wasn't--however, I feel that the setting Gundam 00 has created for itself carries with it a certain obligation to try and portray a complex world, where the various factions and characters do not easily fall into the category of "good" or "evil." That it will -not- do that and will, instead, reduce itself to the typical Gundam "The shadowy Powers That Be, and people who are just plain evil are responsible for the atrocities of war," theme is one of my big concerns about the show. Which is not to say that that is a "bad" theme, just one that I feel is overly simplistic for the world 00 tries to create. Obviously I can't say whether my concerns are justified yet, merely that certain aspects of the show have felt like they were pulling in that direction.

But uh... in conclusion: I'm entitled to whatever opinions I may form of the show, for whatever reason, even if it isn't a good one (I'm -even- entitled to nitpick, should I so choose). It is pointless to -debate- me over whether or not -I personally- would find something interesting, or would rather see X happen than Y. Now, we have discussed whether a particular idea would be good for the show, but in the process you guys have as much attacked my opinions and how I formed them as the ideas put forth therein. Additionally, my knowledge of the show is appropriate to where I'm posting in the forum, so any predictions I -do- make are justified in that this is a thread that precludes knowledge of the series' second half. I'm certainly willing to discuss the ideas I've expressed, or else I wouldn't have bothered posting them in the first place, but the hostility is not appreciated, and, I think, completely unmerited.

I believe that's it, unless you all need to pick me apart for saying -that- too.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:27 pm 
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Duo Himura wrote:
Last I checked, I said that I found the show enjoyable but felt that it shot itself in the foot in certain areas...I feel that the setting Gundam 00 has created for itself carries with it a certain obligation to try and portray a complex world...


These statements reflect my sentiments toward Season 1. Duo, I think you totally have a right to voice your opinions. As you stated, a show shouldn't just be about its resolution, but about the journey. It's not a matter of "it's terrible" or "it's not terrible." Gundam 00 is not terrible; it's enjoyable. The thing being gauged by all us independent minds is "how strongly" does it carry out the interesting plot it set forth on episode 1. (That's a human reaction and is normal). And this can absolutely be evaluated at this point.

Why? Partly it is nomenclature, as was noted earlier in this thread. By saying "Season 1" and "Season 2," and reinforcing the idea of a "separation" by the 4 year gap, you have what are essentially two self-contained stories about the universe that just so happen to chronologically connect. The first story is about the rise and fall of Celestial Being; the second story setup is the results of Celestial Being's existence and actions. But here's the primary problem with the "Season 2" setup: it's erasing the unique 00 universe elements that were never even well-developed or played out.

The tri-polar universe of the Union, AEU, and HRL were glanced over at best, and their agents: Graham, Sergei, and Patrick were given bit parts that allowed minimal exploration of their characters and their given armies. Since Season 2 erases the tri-polar setup, those elements can never be expounded upon. This is doubly unfortunate, because these three armies, and their political ideals, were mapped out in the prologue as central to the plot; but they all became literary "Mcguffins."

The depth that three, separate, competing views gave 00's world in theory is now gone. As a casualty of this: Now we have Graham as a masked character with a grudge; his background with the Union can at best be told in flashbacks, which have less consequence, because he's operating outside of that Union framework now. He hardly even had time to be the character he was--one fascinated by the Gundams and trying to understand them. The whole investigation of the Gundams promised in the early episodes hardly had any playing out in the military...most of it was done by Kinue (piecemeal style). Thus, the mystery of the solar reactors largely became a Mcguffin. And when the Pseudo-solar reactors were added, the uniqueness of a solar reactor became more of less irrelevant. Ralph Aifman was another bit character as a result, as the gathering of data on the Gundams became scrapped as a plot point. For that matter, the orbital elevators as a centerpiece motif for the 00 world faded in Season 1, where it should have been strongest.

Further, the whole idea of a "Federation" doesn't make sense. It's a forced plot point to allow for a shift in the tri-polar plot that didn't even fully play out. In the latter episodes of Season 1, the world was under a UN coalition; however, there was no incentive for these rivals to stay together in a permanent arrangement. The idea of A-Laws makes more sense as a spinoff of a security alliance that works together, but not under one unified, catch-all Federation umbrella.

As for the Meisters...they all required more one-on-one time during this first act when there was the initial framework of Celestial Being and the tri-powers. Each Meister has a background from a given area influenced or controlled by the tri-ploar arrangement, but that sort of thing was glanced over as quickly as possible. Now in Season 2, they have tasted defeat, so the way they looked at Celestial Being and the tri-polar powers and their agents before the Federation can never be explored in real-time depth. In a nutshell, they went from hunters to hunted too fast.

The Meisters had just enough development so you'd care for them, but not enough that you felt each of their stories could stand 100% genuinely on their own. IE: Now when Setsuna starts thinking about Marina, it sounds more profound than it actually was when the two of them were interacting. They had cursory meetings, not ones that would have the effect suddenly added in the latter half of Season 1.

Now, if Season 1 was going to be about the interventions in the tri-polar world and not about individual character development, then the interventions should have been more exciting so Season 2 could slow it down to bring in more development. As it was, Season 1 felt too rushed and underdeveloped in both the action/political sense and the character sense. In other words, it tried to do too much in 25 episodes, and as a result, very little felt solidly explored. The setup of episode 1 deserved a whole series when you come right down to it. The clearest example of this rushing is revealed in the last episode, where we're supposed to take Alejandro seriously and expected to believe there is a firmly established rivalry between Graham and Setsuna.

Another, less nagging, but noteworthy point: I'm sure Season 2 will pick up on Saji and Louise as a big part of its plot, but the origins of their characters were kind of sloppily thrown into episodes more often than not, rather than blending them in to create a bond with the plot. For instance, we had Setsuna living next door to Saji, but there was hardly any back and forth or suspicions/tension. Louise was presented so over the top that it made it hard for her to be a sympathetic character. Nena's eventual random killing of Louise's family was very forced. Louise's loss was real and felt, but the road to it didn't make me feel like these characters were connected directly to the plot; they were accessories in the right place at the right time. Like the random bus bombing scene of that La Edenra group that gets taken out in like one episode. It just feels like more could have been done with these characters to make them 3D before the tragedies that make them who they are in Season 2. Perhaps "less" (less pillow fights and whining) would have been "more" in this case...

All and all, I think the story needed more development and pacing on the front end. Even if it does more on the back end, you have an unbalanced narrative with a lot of missed opportunities set forth in the very origin of the plot. So, yes, Season 1 and 2 can be looked at as one series...but because certain opportunities for development can only take place before the time skip, it's hard to claim Season 2 will solve all potential shortcomings of Season 1. I'm sure Season 2 will be enjoyable, as it has a number of threads to pick up on; but I don't like the idea that Season 1 is an expendable red-herring to Season 2.


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:57 pm 
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Duo Himura wrote:
That's WHY I posted in the thread for Season 1! It's all a matter of perspective anyway--the only real problem here is that you know what happens already and I don't. But then, I guess the question is why are you still hanging around the season 1 thread complaining about someone who's making predictions -based- on season 1? The fact that I may or may not be wrong notwithstanding, I felt like sharing some opinions about the part of the series I had seen, thoughts about where it could go, disappointments I had, etc. Since there was already a thread devoted to only the first half of the series, I -assumed-, erroneously, apparently, that it would be fine to make whatever comments I had, since the people in this thread would understand that we were limiting conversation to the first half of the show. If the attitude here is "sit down and shut up until you've seen the latest episode," then the existence of this thread is pointless.


You keep sticking to the point of this being a season 1 thread as if that means something, so let me deflate that. This thread doesn't exist to discuss season 1 in a complete vacuum as though season 2 doesn't exist. This thread's purpose is to avoid spoilers and not interrupt the flow of discussion in the season 2 thread.

The whole point of speculation is to guess about things that HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET. Season 2 is for the most part over, so you can't speculate about what you'd like to see when it's almost completely over and you haven't even seen anything yet. Where you think it could go after season 1 is frankly irrelevant because it already has gone in the direction it's going for 18 episodes.

To make this clear, there's nothing wrong with sharing your opinion about something, and if you want to speculate about things that haven't happened, that's fine. But you can't speculate about things that HAVE happened but that YOU haven't personally seen. And when you have a litany of things you personally want to see happen, you can't hold it against the show for not doing them just according to your plan.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:28 am 
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Duo Himura wrote:
I was kind of interested to see where the series would go with 80% of its antagonists biting it, and a decent chunk of the supporting cast besides.


Ok, let's see, how many actual antagonists do we have in the season 1? We have Ali, Alejandro, Ribbons(late antagonist:P) and the trinities(well, they're just pawns, but they do antagonize the situation and the main characters to fight them as a result, making the term fit them.) That's a total of 6.

Wong/Wang/whatever is as far as I can tell, a neutral party and only wants to see the world changed, so she doesn't count. Seargi, Soma, Patrick, and Graham don't count as villains in my book, as they're not really doing anything bad as far as the plot is concerned other than hunting down terrorists. They're just another side of the story, and they lean towards anti-hero than antagonist.

So, let's go to the ones mentioned. Alejandro bites the big one, as does Michael and Johanne, leaving only Nena, Ali, and Ribbons as villains. Though, with her brothers dead and finding out that she was just expendable, Nena doesn't seem like she'll bark up that alley again. So now we're left with Ali and Ribbons. That's a third of the antagonists either killed off or not being villains*in the perspective of CB* anymore.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:26 am 
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Duo Himura wrote:
Er... okay, why is everyone interpreting "X would be interesting to see," or "I'm a little disappointed with Y" as me saying OMG THE SHOW SUCKS? Last I checked, I said that I found the show enjoyable but felt that it shot itself in the foot in certain areas. I fail to see why everyone has decided to jump down my throat about whether my OPINIONS are valid.


And last I checked, no one is saying that you were commenting about the show sucking. What people are saying is that your 'opinions' are actually judgement calls based on the fact that you only saw half the series, and as mentioned a billion times, your speculations aren't really speculations, but a mere list of things you wished the series went. I'm telling you that, especially since you haven't even seen how the second season even went, how can those 'disappointments' even amount to anything when you haven't even seen what things like what kind of impact the events suddenly have as a result of, say, the villains and remaining protagonists surviving have. Now imagine all that multiplied ten fold when you also present similar 'opinions' like this, and it's no longer an issue of speculation and opinions, but judgment calls and nitpicks. That's not exactly good for discussion here. In the same way, some people are thinking that the first season is a cop out for the the second season, and that they will likely enjoy it. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But until you see it for yourself, you don't know that either. Afterall, we've also got enough people who consider the second season to be weaker.

I will personally tell you offhand myself that I also agree that the first season for the most part has been the weaker of the two halves, especially given that most of the second season has already happened. Still, second season has just as much potential to fail given that there are, what, seven more episodes left as of this posting, and I personally have some issues with a few of those episodes as well, amongst other things. Until I see the whole package, I can't truly tell you how good this series truly is, nor can I truly throw in a personal 'wishlist' of things I would've rather seen happen till it all falls into place. All I can do is sit back and hope the series as a whole comes together with a nice finish.

And as far as 'villains' being finished off are concerned in the first season, only Patrick I found came close to the 'cop out' definition that you had going, given the way the scene came out compared to his previous 'Team Patrick' moments. The others, don't really see those as a cop out, nor did I see any reason to flat out kill them for the sake of a 'clean slate'.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:26 pm 
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...So, when Gundam 00 Season 1 does get released on DVD in North America, how many episodes will be on the discs? Do you think 5, or will they milk it with 4?

And, do you think they'll do a deal where the first BGM OST comes with the first disc/box?


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:04 am 
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to be honest no one here knows

depending on how well it's been working so far I think 00 will have a release similar to Geass.

-three 2 volume parts (both Limited and Standard edition)
-6 plain singles with the first having 5 episodes and the next 5 having 4

rinse and repeat for season two. As for extras I think we can count on OSTs and possibly some of the Manga

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:29 pm 
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does anybody know when the second season starts up on sci-fi?

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:30 pm 
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does anybody know when the second season starts up on sci-fi?

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:32 pm 
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Espdude wrote:
does anybody know when the second season starts up on sci-fi?
no; no word yet though it'll likely be a while

also in case anyone hasn't seen
http://www.rightstuf.com/1-800-338-6827 ... 3080/4/0/0
http://www.rightstuf.com/1-800-338-6827 ... 3079/4/0/0

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:24 pm 
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Come on, guys, leave the poor guy alone. It really does sound like he's unwelcome to post his thoughts here just because he's behind in the series. There is nowhere else really to speculate about things that have happened, and many of us are behind in it. Speculation is one of the most fun parts about watching a show, and excluding his thoughts and opinions because he's not as far along as the season 2 watchers is mean.


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