Would G-Saviour be considered canon?

sushicake · Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:32 pm

Since Yoshiyuki Tomino never approved of the movie being made, and for most part everything canon in the "UC" gundam universe is directed if not have atleast some consultation and partial approval on his part.

Dark Duel · Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:45 pm

No, it is not.
Moreover, if I recall correctly Yoshiyuki Tomino stepped in and had Bandai/Sunrise officially remove G-Saviour from UC Canon, so it's considered an "Alternate Universal Century" production.

Cardi Doorl · Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:54 pm

It's true that G-Saviour has long since been removed from Bandai's official timeline, but I've never heard about Tomino himself having a hand in that decision.

Kavik Ryx · Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:31 pm

IRC, Tomino does not control what is canon or not except for his own works like his series and movies, Hathaway's Flash, and Gaia Gear. Ban Dai pretty much pretends that it doesn't exist, so it is alternate continuity at best. You know, just for the hell of it, I should actually see G Savior.

Brave Fencer Kirby · Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:55 pm

"Canon" doesn't really mean a whole lot in the Gundam fandom anyway. With equally "canon" sources contradicting each other, trying to tie down one "true" version of events for any given timeline (which gets even more complicated when Turn A may or may not tie all the timelines together!) is impossible. Which should you believe -- the TV series or the movie trilogy? A novel or a manga? Model kits or MSV booklets? There is no good answer; the best you can do is take them all at once and pick and choose which source makes the most sense on a case-by-case basis. There's no real rhyme or reason to any of it -- it's just the way the franchise works.

So my advice is to just enjoy it without worrying about whether it's canon or not.

Recon 5 · Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:12 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:There is no good answer; the best you can do is take them all at once and pick and choose which source makes the most sense on a case-by-case basis.

Until they bring out a new production that ties directly in with something that you have fervently dismissed for nearly a decade. It's happened before with other franchises and I can see it happening with Gundam. What then?

Cardi Doorl · Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:34 pm

If that's the case, then I guess said new production doesn't fit into your personal canon. What a disaster.

I mean really, what would you do? Would you say "Oh my, this new production follows from the series version and doesn't fit with the movie version that I prefer. I guess I absolutely refuse to see it then"? It's honestly not a big deal.

Then again, not taking something into your personal canon doesn't mean you "dismiss" or "ignore" it. I take the MSG movies over the series, but that doesn't mean I go around pretending the series doesn't exist, or that Gundam: The Origin doesn't exist.

Mark064 · Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:47 pm

Honestly personal "canon" only works to a point. Sure you can chose to accept something like Crossbone Gundam or not. But then it gets stickier when you decide to accept something like Mobile Suit Gundam Vs. Giant God: Counterattack of Gigantis as "canon". Because honestly with all the Gundam works out there you can decide that your personal "canon" is a combination of works that don't include Amuro, Char, or the OYW at all. Of course this is taking things to the extreme.

My point is no matter what your personal "canon" is there are things that you have to accept and have to reject no matter what. Most of these should be pretty obvious. And as this topic was originally about G-Saviour, yes G-Saviour is one of those that have to be rejected no matter what. I shouldn't have to go into details about that. Most of what needs to be said about that has been. Though Tomino has no control in it at all.

Brave Fencer Kirby · Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:42 am

Mark064 wrote:And as this topic was originally about G-Saviour, yes G-Saviour is one of those that have to be rejected no matter what.

The hell you say? What makes G-Savior any more anti-canon than the twelve different versions of the One Year War? The Earth Federation was weakening steadily from the One Year War up through Victory Gundam; one could argue that a collapse an reform into something like G-Savior's CONSENT was not only possible, but inevitable. So G-Savior could certainly be counted as canon in that respect.

So yeah. Trying to dictate what's canon and what's not is a lost cause, pretty much.

Mark064 · Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:24 am

The real version of the OYW is the version shared between the movies and the TV series. The versions in 0080 and 08th do not change that, the MSV info does not change that either as they do not effect the events in series/movies in any way. Anything that does change the events of the OYW portrayed in the TV series and movies cannot be considered offical for that reason.

G-Saviour on the other hand has a killing blow, it's been directly stated to be not part of UC, when it once was. Since it was literally kicked out of UC by Sunrise that is it's killing blow. Sure the events may be plauiable in some way or another, but that doesn't matter. It's not something like Crossbone Gundam which as far as I know has never truly been part of Sunrise's offical UC of just animated works. If Sunrise has literally axed something out of UC, no matter how probable the events are it's dead.

Aegis · Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:44 am

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote: The hell you say? What makes G-Savior any more anti-canon than the twelve different versions of the One Year War?

Simple. Because Sunrise says so. They're the ones who ultimately control what is and isn't canon, what is and isn't part of the timeline, etc, etc, etc. Personal preference will not change the fact that G Savior doesn't belong in the UC universe, whereas all the other animated series/movies have been clearly stated to be part of the canon universe. For that reason, as stated before, there's only two OYW stories that are considered canon, which are the series and the movies. How you decide to mix and match THOSE timelines between TV series and movies, be it MSG or Zeta, that is something the fans get to debate for years on end. I agree, some things don't really matter and should be enjoyed (or bashed) for whatever they're worth, but when you're talking UC history in here, THAT part has been stated loud and clear and isn't really as complicated as people make it out to be.

Recon 5 · Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:10 am

I think Sunrise trying to dictate what's canon and what's not is a lost cause for them, because it isn't going to end fan debate. The only thing that an official word does for them is saving them from having to continue franchises that they particularly dislike.

toysdream · Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:25 am

I wish I had a copy of this official memo on Sunrise stationery that everyone else seems to have received, stating outright that G-Saviour has been kicked out of continuity. You all seem terribly sure that there's a corporate policy statement on the subject.

Technically, based on Sunrise's stated policy that "only filmed works are official," there's no reason to think that G-Saviour wouldn't qualify. But in practice, it seems to have been so poorly received that they're trying to pretend it was never released. I believe it was completely ignored in the recent "Fact File" series, not to mention reference books like "The Gundam Chronicles" and "The Encyclopedia of Gundam", and on the whole Sunrise seems to be hoping that if they stop talking about it we'll eventually forget it ever happened. But if Sunrise has "officially kicked (it) out" of continuity or "directly stated" that it's unofficial, I think I missed the press release.

-- Mark

Mark064 · Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:56 am

Before Gundam.Info on Gundam Perfect Web there was the listing of works. The site has since changed and the original page is not avalaible anymore but that's why we have Waybackmachine. If you go from the starting enteries of August 23, 2000 until August 01, 2003 you wil find G-Saviour listed. It got removed in the next update as of December 09, 2003 when I guess they decided it didn't exist anymore. But we can scroll through the listings past Universal Century, past After Colony, past After War, past ??????? into the final cateogry その他 (others).

There is also Gundam Ace 001 which lists G-Saviour as an Alternate UC.

There may be no press release but there is enough data to enter the conclusion of it's status. And well that's really the best you can do. Gather the data and achieve a result based on that data. If you wanna be totally fair on the subject G-Saviour is an offical Gundam, just not part of UC, tucked away in it's own universe.

Marcis · Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:48 am

Umm... if that is SO important for some people then why you just don't drop Sunrise an email and ask?
I am pretty sure they will answer.

Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:06 pm

While Mark064's evidence points to G-Saviour not being considered official, does it really matter? I think a lot of people here are mixing their personal opinions about the movie with whether it should be considered official. I'm no fan of the movie and think it's pretty much a piece of crap, but I don't care if it's considered "official" or not. I'm also not a fan of ZZ's first half, but it doesn't bother me enough to call for its expulsion from the timeline.

No franchise is going to be completely pure and have top quality entries each and every time, whether it's Gundam or something like Star Wars or Star Trek. I hope people keep this in mind since we seem to keep having debates almost every week about what's official and what isn't, and more than a few times the question has centered on G-Saviour. Let's put all the bickering to rest.

hawk of endymion · Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:51 pm

I'd like to shoot G-Savior out of a cannon.

But I think it is canon, just very far in the future.

MrMarch · Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:51 pm

Chris wrote:No franchise is going to be completely pure and have top quality entries each and every time, whether it's Gundam or something like Star Wars or Star Trek. I hope people keep this in mind since we seem to keep having debates almost every week about what's official and what isn't, and more than a few times the question has centered on G-Saviour. Let's put all the bickering to rest.

Definitely agree. And also, one of the things I learned when building the Macross Mecha Manual, one must acknowledge ALL the franchise works as official and canon, even the ones that suck bad. Even if G-Saviour was garbage, it has to be acknowledged as Gundam, for better or worse.

Imperial · Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Definitely agree. And also, one of the things I learned when building the Macross Mecha Manual, one must acknowledge ALL the franchise works as official and canon, even the ones that suck bad. Even if G-Saviour was garbage, it has to be acknowledged as Gundam, for better or worse.

Thirding

Of course, it's all a moot point, really. G-Saviour is so far down the line as to be barely recognizable as UC. What's more, Sunrise is so concerned with the first Universal Century that everything not dealing with Zeon tends to be ignored or forgotten in short order. There are exceptions to every rule (Crossbone, for instance), but Sunrise doesn't have much desire or incentive to move beyond the roots of the universe.

toysdream · Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:57 pm

MrMarch wrote:Definitely agree. And also, one of the things I learned when building the Macross Mecha Manual, one must acknowledge ALL the franchise works as official and canon, even the ones that suck bad. Even if G-Saviour was garbage, it has to be acknowledged as Gundam, for better or worse.

I think that's the crux of it, really. Sunrise has a pretty clear definition of what is and isn't "official", according to which G-Saviour definitely is official, so there's no way they can really take it back. And so it gets this weird shunning treatment instead.

-- Mark