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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:27 am 
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I think that trying to find "real world" or "strategic" explanations for characters disappearing is digging too deeply for an answer. Rosamia is not Osama bin Laden, she's just a grunt artificial Newtype pilot. When she's gone for nearly 30 episodes, as is Bask, you can't really explain that as much other than the characters were forgotten. Bask is a major player in the Titans, and given that Jamitov makes appearances in the interim, there's no reason why Bask has to be gone for 30 or so episodes. Forgotten characters wouldn't be anything new in Zeta or to Tomino - Gates Kappa simply disappears and is never seen again for the rest of the show, so we don't even see if he lives or dies. I don't mind characters being gone for a long time as long as there's a *reason* why they're gone. Char's absence in MSG makes sense because he was busted down for not protecting Garma. But people like Rosamia, Bask, Mashymre or Chara vanishing for such long periods with no explanation isn't the same.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:08 am 
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I agree with Quiddity. I don't have a problem with characters coming and going. I say that if a person isn't contributing anything to the story arc being told, then showing them is just wasted time. Though I think you should allow 30 episodes to go by without checking up on someone important.

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think about it in real-world terms.

I'd rather not. No matter how hard you may try, the complexities of a good anime like Zeta and the complexities of the real world never synch up perfectly. Parallels between the two only fall apart the more you look into them.

Rosamia/Rosamy was one character that I did not especially like since I could barely connect the two personalities. The tragedy of the artificial Newtype research and what people did to her in order to transform her into a super weapon didn't come across well because we don't see what she went through. All we get is a before and after picture. I would have liked to see more details about what the artificial newtype labs were actually doing and what the process of creating a newtype entails.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:12 am 
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Bask is the one character where I generally agree with the gripe, although at the very least there were so many other Titan villains like Jerid, Scirocco, Yazan, Jamaican, etc... that his absense was not as big a flaw as it might have been had say there been no significant villains in his place. A similar comparison can be made to Char in MS Gundam; when he originally dissappears you've got Ramba Ral around for a while, so his absense isn't that big a problem.

Rosamia just didn't come off as much of a character the first time she appeared. She was only around 2-3 eps, right? The strength of her role with me comes in those final 12 episodes or so that she's in so the 20+ episode absense doesn't bother me at all as her first appearance just wasn't notable at all in stark contrast to Bask.

Gates was such a minor character that his absense in the final 2 episodes didn't bother me all that much. I recall hearing something about the Pyscho Gundam II's explosion frying his brain or something like that but to be honest can't remember whether there's anything official behind that. If there is, at least there is the explanation with what happened to him. The 'vanishing character with no resolution' that always bugged me was Rockley Ron in L.Gaim, who not only was a notable character throughout most of the show, but also took part in a battle in the second to last episode only to vanish completely in the final one with no explanation whatsoever with what happened to him.

Going through ZZ now so can't comment on Mashymere or Chara.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Chris wrote:
Rosamia is not Osama bin Laden
I didn't compare the two and wouldn't--it would simply be inaccurate to do so. I compared Char's coming-and-going to Osama bin Laden and only Char, and even then I made room for where it doesn't synch perfectly. If one expects the parallels to synch perfectly (and this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, especially Chris), then they're never going to be pleased. I'm trying to bring some in-universe explanations instead of just complain about Tomino's style. I can see why one would try to explain it from a true point-of-view--namely that Tomino does this frequently--from a character and in-universe perspective, there are more than a dozen explanations for why a character must and does disappear for any given time.

I think in general the character disappearances in Double Zeta are excusable if one considers just how childish the show is. I didn't take the show seriously from the beginning and didn't at its end either. If a character disappeared, it was just like watching any other cartoon where non-main characters come and go and no one really notices. I think the tiger transformer (whatever his name was) in Transformers: BeastWars had a similar situation, but then again, that was a long time ago...

As for Bask--I actually didn't find it odd. Maybe I try to apply too may real-world scenarios, but I tried to think of how the U.S. military would have handled the Gryps Conflict (whether it had been either the AEUG or Titans). Bask, despite being the de facto, if not de jure second-in-command of the Titans, must be an incredibly busy person. Personally overseeing the anti-AEUG campaign, though important, isn't the place for the second-in-command of an organization like the Titans. Instead, that is something you send subordinates like Jamaican and Gady to do, as well as Scirocco and Buran. Bask being gone didn't seem odd to me so much as it did realistic--and by realistic I mean logical. As a second-in-command of any unit, your administrative tasks VASTLY outweigh your tactical tasks--in fact, unless the commanding officer is ascent or orders such, the role of an executive officer is purely administrative. Heck, he doesn't even necessarily coordinate operations; that task is usually left to an officer of equal or one-grade-lesser rank who is likely called the "Operations Officer", tasked with coordinating the maneuver and operations of subordinate units, such as a Battalion S-3 coordinates the tactical responsibilities of companies in the field. Having Bask at the beginning makes logical sense in that he was present at the theater-of-operations and has the authority to carry out operations; most likely, he expected to be able to complete the mission of recovering the Gundam Mk-IIs quickly and quietly. I mean, hell, a soldier goes to jail for a year for losing his weapon--I can't imagine what the punishment is for losing something the size and expense of a mobile suit, much less three elite ones! Even for someone like Bask, that has to be a difficult thing to overcome.

After that mission, which wasn't particularly successful, I can see why Bask might not want to show his face for a while, especially on the front lines. Besides, I imagine that as an executive officer of an organization like the Titans, he's got his hands full with just making sure everyone gets their ammunition, food, equipment is maintained, approving this requisition, denying this request, et cetera. His return in the Battle of the Gate of Zedan and then at the Colony Laser comes as no surprise when one considers that the entire Titan force was present. The Titans were fighting for nothing short of their entire existence, especially since the Federation had turned on them and sided (if only nominally) with the AEUG. Additionally, the Titans are also fighting the traitorous Jupiter forces under Scirocco and the hostile forces of Axis under Haman. There is a very good reason for him showing up then.

I could go on, but I don't think it's doing any good. :roll:

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:17 pm 
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SOCL, I understand your point about Bask being a busy man, and given that you're in the military you lay out a good view of all the things he'd be responsible for. But from a story perspective, running a military organization still doesn't justify such an extended absence with no explanation of what he's been up to, especially since Jamitov has quite a few appearances in the interim. I may be a bit off on my numbers, but I believe we don't see Bask between episodes 13 and 39. During that time, Jamitov shows up for Operation Apollo, and he shows up again in Dakar to address the Federation assembly (and make sure Blex gets assassinated), and he may have one other appearance after that. All I'm saying is that even if Bask is a busy guy, they could at least show him being busy, rather than just have him away for almost 30 episodes, which gives the very clear impression that his character has just been forgotten.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:39 pm 
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Chris wrote:
All I'm saying is that even if Bask is a busy guy, they could at least show him being busy, rather than just have him away for almost 30 episodes, which gives the very clear impression that his character has just been forgotten.
And in that regard, I completely agree. I think Tomino should have shown Bask more often, if only in quickly cameo appearances during briefings or such. Heck, it may be possible that he appears more often, with respect to the number of episodes, in 0083 than Zeta. I wasn't trying to imply that Tomino was thinking anything I outlined--I'm certain he wasn't--and I'm sure it was just a creative oversight of a type at worst and a stylistic oddity at best. I guess I was just trying to view the series from the perspective of: If the Universal Century were real, how would one explain it. I probably should concentrate on more important manners, especially while at work. :roll: :lol:

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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:00 am 
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I just finished this episode today. Enjoyed muchly.

Point of information: Char disappeared for about 14 episodes in MSG, but in show time, he was only out of the storyline 2 weeks, the time it would take to go back to Side 3, do whatever he had to do there in order to re-enter the forces, and return to Earth.

I'm really, really looking forward to the segment on Tomino non-Gundam shows because I enjoyed "Overman King Gainer" a lot and am watching "L-Gaim" sporadically in between episodes of "Rose of Versailles".

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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:25 am 
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Kishiria wrote:
Point of information: Char disappeared for about 14 episodes in MSG, but in show time, he was only out of the storyline 2 weeks, the time it would take to go back to Side 3, do whatever he had to do there in order to re-enter the forces, and return to Earth.
I never realized that Char went back to Side 3 after Garma's death. I thought he had remained on Earth, hiding out, and that the Palace Guard had found him there... Is it explicitly stated anywhere that he returned to Zeon?

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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:41 pm 
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Kishiria wrote:
I just finished this episode today. Enjoyed muchly.

Point of information: Char disappeared for about 14 episodes in MSG, but in show time, he was only out of the storyline 2 weeks, the time it would take to go back to Side 3, do whatever he had to do there in order to re-enter the forces, and return to Earth.


That's a good point, I sometimes forget that myself. But with such a dynamic character like Char, you want him there every episode.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:40 pm 
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I agree with SOCL, I don't remember him going all the way back to Side 3. Considering how much energy and ressources it would have taken, it doesn't seem worth it for a now-disgraced commander. Unless an HLV happened to be heading back to Zeon and Char caught a ride. I figured they just gave him instructions from someone on Earth or via email or something.


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 Post subject: Tomino's women
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:19 pm 
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SOCL wrote:
Kishiria wrote:
Point of information: Char disappeared for about 14 episodes in MSG, but in show time, he was only out of the storyline 2 weeks, the time it would take to go back to Side 3, do whatever he had to do there in order to re-enter the forces, and return to Earth.
I never realized that Char went back to Side 3 after Garma's death. I thought he had remained on Earth, hiding out, and that the Palace Guard had found him there... Is it explicitly stated anywhere that he returned to Zeon?


You know, there isn't anything to say he returned to Zeon, is there? I assumed he had because he was processed back into the military, but he could just as easily have done that on Earth or Granada. Two weeks would not be an unreasonable amount of time for that though.

I wanted to address one thing that you guys said on the broadcast though, about Tomino's negative view of women. I have to disagree; I think that Tomino is the biggest feminist in anime next to Miyazaki!

Yes, he comes up with some pretty dislikable women. However, given that a common definition for "feminism" is "the radical idea that women are people" it stands to reason that women must then run the gamut from pond scum to saints. And in the works of Tomino, they do.

I'll stick to Gundam, even though I've been watching some of his other shows lately. The first major character we lay eyes on in Gundam is Frau Bow. I don't remember who posted it, but I read a review once that rhapsodized, "There she is, the first competent woman in anime." And it's true Frau is 15 and a nag, but any job she's put to, she succeeds at. Then we have snooty, sexy, troubled yet competent Sayla. And Matilda Ajan. Hamon Crowley. The list of MSG strong and sympathetic women goes on and on.

And then...there's Kishiria. I won't go on there except to say Tomino has commented that she is his favourite female character out of all of those he's created.

Moving on to ZZ, the teenaged girls are almost all annoying, but we have the fabulous Emma, dear Frau and Mirai and of course the bitch queen from hell herself, Haman Khan.

Turn A has a wide range of wonderful female characters as well.

I won't argue that Tomino has parent (and specifically mama) issues although Frau and Mirai are both devoted mums. I think he may have some abandonment issues but I don't know his biography.

Anyway, I think Tomino does just fine when it comes to female characters. Compare his take to that of Reiji Matsumoto, whose women are all untouchable goddesses and that annoys the hell out of me.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:26 pm 
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You've also got very likable, strong women like Karala Ajiba, Marvel Frozen, Ceila Lapana and Gaw Ha Leccee in his non-Gundam work. I've never had a beef with the way Tomino treats females. For every Harulu Ajiba or Kacilia Zabi who comes off as an ultra bitch, he's usually got someone from the opposite end of the spectrum there as well.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:40 pm 
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I know, but since this episode of Gundamn! was the Gundam works of Tomino, I was going to save discussion of his non-Gundam characters for next time round.

I'm watching L-Gaim in between episodes of the totally addictive "Rose of Versailles" and I'm a great fan of "Overman King Gainer" so I've seen a number of his other shows. Couldn't get into Dunbine though; found the art way too ugly. I want to see "Ideon" but am kind of scared to....

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:05 pm 
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Kishiria wrote:
I wanted to address one thing that you guys said on the broadcast though, about Tomino's negative view of women. I have to disagree; I think that Tomino is the biggest feminist in anime next to Miyazaki!


Well, the way I see it, putting women in positions of power and portraying them positively aren't exactly the same thing. I would agree that Tomino certainly empowered women by having Sayla as a capable pilot and Kycilia as an authoritative politician. But that aside, there's just something about the women in Tomino's later Gundam works, be it Kamille's disconnected mother, Reccoa, Quess or some of the psychopaths in Victory like Katejina and Lupe. There's just something about them that all seems related to Tomino and whatever experiences he's had with women in his life.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:47 pm 
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Quote:
I'm watching L-Gaim in between episodes of the totally addictive "Rose of Versailles" and I'm a great fan of "Overman King Gainer" so I've seen a number of his other shows. Couldn't get into Dunbine though; found the art way too ugly. I want to see "Ideon" but am kind of scared to....


Will warn you then; Ideon's got the same character designer as Dunbine :P I don't find Kogawa's characters that ugly (well in Dunbine & Ideon anyway, Xabungle is another story), although he probably is a stark contrast to other guys Tomino worked with like Yasuhiko and Kitazume.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:55 am 
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Regarding Tomino and parental issues, his alienating parents from their kids was sort of a necessity. MSG and Zeta (I havn't seen all of V) take regular people and throw them into the battlefield. The effect of that wouldn't be as profound if Amuro or Camille had parents to comfort them. Seperating from your parents and being an individual were important themes in both series. Amuro lost contact with his mother and lost Lalah (not sure if that relationship is motherlike though) while Camille lost his mom and Emma flat out refused to act as a surrogate.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:24 pm 
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Chris wrote:
Kishiria wrote:
I wanted to address one thing that you guys said on the broadcast though, about Tomino's negative view of women. I have to disagree; I think that Tomino is the biggest feminist in anime next to Miyazaki!


Well, the way I see it, putting women in positions of power and portraying them positively aren't exactly the same thing. I would agree that Tomino certainly empowered women by having Sayla as a capable pilot and Kycilia as an authoritative politician. But that aside, there's just something about the women in Tomino's later Gundam works, be it Kamille's disconnected mother, Reccoa, Quess or some of the psychopaths in Victory like Katejina and Lupe. There's just something about them that all seems related to Tomino and whatever experiences he's had with women in his life.


I feel that Tomino both places women in authority in his shows and shows them positively. I haven't see Victory yet, but even in Char's Counterattack you have Nanai, that blonde female pilot (can't remember her name) and the engineer who falls for Amuro who was originally supposed to be Beltochika (who I thought was quite delightful). Sure Quess is annoying, but so was Katsu!

Mothers may be distant and self-absorbed in Gundam, but fathers are absent and/or cheating so it all works out, for me at least.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:30 pm 
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I think in Tomino's case, its more of a personal psychological problem rather than a woman problem. Just look a Lalah Sune. I think Neo put it best when he talked about how manipulative she was. And then there is Muller Miguel, who faces among the worst deaths probably in the history of the small screen. It feels almost like a mental and emotional purge that is entangled with women, rather than dislike or distrust. I mean, even good and strong characters like Emma or Dianna are capable of affecting people strongly, and I think that arises from the same thing.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Quote:
in Char's Counterattack you have Nanai, that blonde female pilot (can't remember her name) and the engineer who falls for Amuro who was originally supposed to be Beltochika


That would be Kayra Su who was crushed to death in the hand of a mobile suit. I remember the first time I saw that I thought, man that is no way for a pilot to die.

And Katz may be annoying (I don't really know), but Quess caused the death of Chan Agi, as Soul Bro pointed out, because Hathaway got pissed off that Chan did the universe a favor. 8)

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:29 am 
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First off, I just want to say that you cats are simply awesome. The debate sparked by this episode surpasses what I expected in response to the episode.

Second, one Saji to rule them all. One Saji to unite them. ^_^

October 2008. Big things to come from the kingdom of Crossroad.

Have your pizza cutters at the ready.

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