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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:07 pm 
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Well, to be fair, there was also Death and Rebirth, and then there was the edited-for-TV version called Death(true). And then there was Revival of Evangelion, which edited Death again and combined it with the End of Evangelion. All of them released within one year. Not to mention the Director's Cut of several episodes.


Those aren't really official though. That's like counting all the re-re-re-re-re-re-releases of Star wars as entirely separate times the story has been completely retold, which is what is being argued.

The official animation timeline is Evangelion the Series->EoE, Rebuild Timeline. That's it. Maybe Death and Rebirth, but again do you really seriously count stuff like the Gundam compilations and the Ghost in the Shell Laughing Man movie as a separate hit, or in compilation technicality?


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:17 pm 
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hawk of endymion wrote:
Here's the deal, the core of Gundam is in essence MSG(universal century). That story has not been changed, only the order of events per the movie trilogy. The alternative century are extra. In contrast the core of Eva has been told in at least three different version, the show, the movies and now the new movies.

I will say this now and will defend this to the end, Eva is not "the greatest anime of all time", it is MSG. Because without MSG(or really Ideon), there's no Eva. At least SUnrise tried to change some aspects of the AC gundam, what's Gainex excuse?


I agree with the overall point, but that's poor reasoning. Just because something else did it first doesn't mean something else that comes afterwards can't out do it. Ideon came first and Eva in all likelihood wouldn't exist (or would exist in a drastly different form) if it wasn't for Ideon. But Eva is better than Ideon. And this is coming from someone obsessed enough with Ideon that he's imported at least a dozen 20+ year old Ideon books from Japan and translated all 39 episodes and both movies into English. Ultimiately, Eva took themes that were from Ideon and ended up doing a better job with it; granted with 15+ years of improvement in animation and without the toy restraints that a show like Ideon had.

Versus Gundam, I'd say Eva has more highs, but also more lows, in particular having barely any likable characters, too many irrelevant filler episodes, a increasingly collapsing final 6 episodes and the worst ending in anime TV history. In terms of impact I don't think Eva can even compare with Gundam, although from a sheer quality standpoint, I don't think they're that far off.

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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:29 pm 
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Evangelion, in what I most argue, impacted anime in the art direction. I'm not talking about styles, but angles and body shots that you really didn't see before Eva.

And just as Gundam opened up the possibility for toy shows to go beyond just being toy shows, Eva opened up more opportunities for psychological shows like Serial Lain and Revolutionary Girl Utena to be greenlit in what was honestly a stagnant majority in the anime industry back in the early 90's. It brings up similar conversations that without Firefly, shows like LOST wouldn't have given as much as chance were it not for the opportunities given from the former's impact and presence.


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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:30 am 
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TakaTahuNuva wrote:
Destiny_Gundam wrote:
hawk of endymion wrote:
I just feel the constant retelling in film and print have diminished the power of the story.


Again, you keep stressing this point but you're greatly exaggerating. Eva has a TV anime (and its movie conclusion), a manga adaptation, and now remake movies. There are lots of other mangas, but they are all complete AUs with different premises. So no, there are no 'constant' retellings.

Well, to be fair, there was also Death and Rebirth, and then there was the edited-for-TV version called Death(true). And then there was Revival of Evangelion, which edited Death again and combined it with the End of Evangelion. All of them released within one year. Not to mention the Director's Cut of several episodes.

But hey, guys, why all the negativity in this topic? Can't we all just love one another and save the hating for MD Geist? :D

...

(I do want to point out that I actually liked Shadow Chronicles. Then again, I've only seen a couple of episodes of the original Robotech show, so maybe that's why.)


I am gone for a day and this all happens. Wow.

First James Cameron, what he did in terms of film technology, was good; but that is it, most people don't really know how to use the technology other than "Lets just make things look nice". Movies these fall into four types: Normal Movies, "3D" Movies, THX Movies, and "3D" THX Movie, the last three are gimmicks for Hollywood to charge you more money to watch one movie.

Ok, now lets all be cool here; this has been talked about both on the net and off, Eva is good and people like it and some don't, Neo just likes it less than when he first saw it, Am I right Neo? What we say here will not change what the fans at large will think of Eva or Gundam, the shows are what they are, animes that people like.

Look we can all agree that everyone has their things that they like, let things be.

Destiny Gundam, Eva has been just like gundam in term of it's "toys", Eva says buy out our figures and dvds, so it really not that much different from gundam or any other anime.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:18 am 
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Quiddity wrote:
I'd say Eva has more highs, but also more lows, in particular having barely any likable characters, too many irrelevant filler episodes, a increasingly collapsing final 6 episodes and the worst ending in anime TV history.


These are all legitimate criticisms about Eva. All the heavy handed religious symbolism BS is another one. If you're going to critisize Eva, these are the things to point out, not "They keep doing the same thing over and over."

Dollow wrote:
Destiny Gundam, Eva has been just like gundam in term of it's "toys", Eva says buy out our figures and dvds, so it really not that much different from gundam or any other anime.


Yeah, I know. I'm aware of how many Rei and Asuka figures are out there. That wasn't the point being argued, though. I just don't like how Neo harshes on Eva for one thing, but has no problem with it when it's Gundam or some other series. It's like thinking I'm the scum of the Earth for being a pedobear, but having no problem with Pedro. Keep your hate consistant! :lol:

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:40 am 
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Dollow wrote:
Destiny Gundam, Eva has been just like gundam in term of it's "toys", Eva says buy out our figures and dvds, so it really not that much different from gundam or any other anime.


Yeah, I know. I'm aware of how many Rei and Asuka figures are out there. That wasn't the point being argued, though. I just don't like how Neo harshes on Eva for one thing, but has no problem with it when it's Gundam or some other series. It's like thinking I'm the scum of the Earth for being a pedobear, but having no problem with Pedro. Keep your hate consistant! :lol:[/quote]

I think when it comes to Eva, the fact it's tried to retell its story a few different times with the same characters has made people tired of it, if it had "Newer" characters and not the ones we always see from the original show. At the most Eva does what it needs to do to live, some like it and some don't.

If it makes you feel better Destiny Gundam, the fact that you feel ok being a pedobear shows your a strong person; most cannot really admit that, I am sure Neo is only playing. :)

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:16 am 
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What Destiny's saying that anything said about Eva, it can easily be said back about Gundam. Just as people would argue about the multiple Rei/Asuka dolls, they can easily point out the slightly darker RX-78-2 with multiple grades over and over. They're both huge franchises in Japan, so the whole discussion about "who's the sellout" becomes as moot as Spongebob vs. Hanna Montana.


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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:17 am 
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Taekmkm wrote:
What Destiny's saying that anything said about Eva, it can easily be said back about Gundam. Just as people would argue about the multiple Rei/Asuka dolls, they can easily point out the slightly darker RX-78-2 with multiple grades over and over. They're both huge franchises in Japan, so the whole discussion about "who's the sellout" becomes as moot as Spongebob vs. Hanna Montana.


We know that and agree on that, use something else. I was saying that with Eva and Gundam they do what is needed to live as franchises, Eva sells figures as well as dvds and Gundam it's the models and dvds too, and both sell many other things to be sure that they live, and people buy them because they like them, that's ok. Where the heck did that whole "Who's the sellout" thing come from?

(I saw what was there) I don't count mangas when it comes to Eva, but if the word "Few" bothers you then I will say, Eva has been retelling its story a couple of times.

Lets take a few steps back, Neo just dislikes Eva a little, nothing we say will change that, I think The Dark Knight is better than what he feels about it, but that is how he feels, so lets just cool off here ok? In the end what we say here is pointless, we should be talking out ep 59 itself and not just about why Neo dislikes Eva.

Speaking of which, this ep 59... is there going to be something very special for ep 60 guys?

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Last edited by Dollow on Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Destiny_Gundam wrote:
Quiddity wrote:
I'd say Eva has more highs, but also more lows, in particular having barely any likable characters, too many irrelevant filler episodes, a increasingly collapsing final 6 episodes and the worst ending in anime TV history.


These are all legitimate criticisms about Eva. All the heavy handed religious symbolism BS is another one. If you're going to critisize Eva, these are the things to point out, not "They keep doing the same thing over and over."


I thought they handled the religious symbolism quite well; my problem's always been with the fanboys who insisted it had a deeper meaning when the creators of the show admitted that it was only included to make the show 'cool'. One thing to be proud of about the Gundam fandom is that it doesn't invent religious meaning out of thin air (like the Evas being based on "Barons of Hell" for which there is no such thing, or claiming that Asuka having red hair and Rei having blue hair has some deep symbolism to it... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: ).

Another thing is the horrific production values near the end of the series. Gundam has its share of repeated clips, thats for sure, but it never uses a single frame for a minute plus, whereas Eva does it twice within the final 5 episodes. :roll:

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And just as Gundam opened up the possibility for toy shows to go beyond just being toy shows, Eva opened up more opportunities for psychological shows like Serial Lain and Revolutionary Girl Utena to be greenlit in what was honestly a stagnant majority in the anime industry back in the early 90's. It brings up similar conversations that without Firefly, shows like LOST wouldn't have given as much as chance were it not for the opportunities given from the former's impact and presence.


I'd go back further and point to the X-Files, for which Firefly's notability is completely incomparable to. When it came to sci-fi dramas with continuing storylines (granted X-Files was about 1/3 continous storylines and 2/3 stand alones where as Lost was 100% the former) I'd say X-Files was really the show that made something like Lost possible.

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:42 pm 
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I'm just using Firefly as an example used in the podcast to better relate, not saying it was specifically Firefly.

And yes, I hate idiots that think Eva is about religion (Another reason why I hate ADV's involvement with Evangelion). It's a psychology show, that happens to have well-researched religious tones but still only there for fun in the end. You're there for the fractured psyche of Shinji's spiraling sanity and how humanity will be a-holes to the very end, rather than "ODE TO JOY ORGASMS!!11"


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:07 pm 
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I just find it strange that my comments of a live action Gundam movie were used to attack my feelings on other series. I also find it strange and unnerving that selective hearing is a rampant epidemic on Mecha Talk.

I appreciate the support of those who have a logical understanding of my comments. For those who have a narrow understanding of my viewpoints or comments, I think this why anime fans are looked at a less favorable light than Star Wars and Star Trek fans.

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:12 pm 
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I find it strange that a thread that started with the discussion of Ghost in the Shell SAC and laughing at MD Geist evolved into a Neo and Eva bashing thread.

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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:42 am 
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jabman025 wrote:
I find it strange that a thread that started with the discussion of Ghost in the Shell SAC and laughing at MD Geist evolved into a Neo and Eva bashing thread.


I know it's terrible (Sigh)

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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:45 am 
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This was only brought on because a pure fact that Gundam has more animated works than Evangelion somehow brought on out-of-the-blue comparisons on the quality of the shows (not one word was even touching on this before, mind you).

And Anime fans are always more terrible. Star Trek/Wars fans come from one franchise. As a medium, anime takes all of everything.


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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:17 pm 
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I just remember something that came to my mind as I was listening to this and ep 55.

The fact that some people are so reliant on the internet and the comment that SBR mentions with many would care less that they lose their TV compare to the internet, and in ep 55 Chris brings up the idea "What if the internet just turned off"

In DotHack because of the virus called Pluto's Kiss, the internet crashes and all computers connected as well, and is down for 77 minutes which causes worldwide traffic accidents and disasters, with the United States' nuclear defense and automated counter-strike systems to be armed. Afterward for two years, no one without special acess could get on the net.

So it is really funny to note that the more we come to rely on technology, the more we lose to be ourselves and in some ways, become disconneted from each other too as for the more part the people we talk to on the net we never see, and as humans we lose more and more what it means to be human.

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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:06 pm 
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jabman025 wrote:
I find it strange that a thread that started with the discussion of Ghost in the Shell SAC and laughing at MD Geist evolved into a Neo and Eva bashing thread.


Yeah, right. It's just because I don't share the hive mind mentality of Eva and these people need to troll.

I'll will say this though, Eva is better than MD Geist and MD Geist 2: Death Force.

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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:03 pm 
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I just want to say, after watching BOTH MD's on TV, I wondered if Scifi(I'm not using Y's) was trying to kill that block!


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:25 pm 
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Yeah, right. It's just because I don't share the hive mind mentality of Eva and these people need to troll.


Please explain. I'm honestly curious where you find that in this (besides Destiny Gundam, who went reaching).


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:16 am 
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hawk of endymion wrote:
jabman025 wrote:
I find it strange that a thread that started with the discussion of Ghost in the Shell SAC and laughing at MD Geist evolved into a Neo and Eva bashing thread.


Yeah, right. It's just because I don't share the hive mind mentality of Eva and these people need to troll.

I'll will say this though, Eva is better than MD Geist and MD Geist 2: Death Force.

So in that case what is worse, Evangelion or Rahxephon?
And Robotech Shadow Chronicles is not a valid answer :P


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:13 am 
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hawk of endymion wrote:
Yeah, right. It's just because I don't share the hive mind mentality of Eva and these people need to troll.


So just because we disagree with you, we're trolling, eh Neo?

Dislike Eva all you want, that's just fine. What I take issue with is how you're always holding it up as the paragon of things that have a lot of retellings when it doesn't deserve that. It only has 2, 3 if you count the manga adaptation. I'm tired of you bringing it up over and over again when there are lots of other things you should use instead. How about all the re-releases of the Star Wars films? Or how about Blade Runner, which has 7 versions of the same movie?

You don't have to like Eva, you don't have to think it's the greatest anime of all time (I certainly don't think it is), but stop being unecessarily mean about it, especially in the one particular area that you overexaggerate.

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