Ep. 030 - The Rogues Gallery

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Post by Soul Bro Ryu » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:07 pm

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Yeah, that's right. No Char. I don't like him too much for the same reasons Kishiria stated. When I only knew him from First Gundam and CCA, I thought he was a pretty cool guy. But then I saw Zeta and I was all "Wait, why is Char being all nice now? What the hell? Why is he knocking back drinks with Amuro?"

On a similar note, what was with that obviously Canadian movie clip at the very end?
Oh, D_G, why don't you admit you like Char already. I know you play SRW on your Red Comet GBA. Join us in our Char-fanboyism, it'll make you 3x cooler. ^_^

Unless Neo Beat me to this, it's from the classic movie "Strange Brew" featuring Bob and Doug, the Brothers Mackenzie. Model Canadians and according to the album, "Deltron 3030", they were "two latter-day Renaissance men. Or, to use the correct Twentieth-Century terminology...Hosers."

Should be required viewing in every Canadian school.
hotlimit wrote:What is the song at 1:20:05!? I've been killing my brain over trying to remember.
The instrumental for "Return" by Self Scientific. Hope that helps, man. Can't believe that I didn't use that one sooner. ^_^
Vent Noir wrote:On villains... it seems like there are two broad categories of villains.

On one hand, there are the cool/sympathetic villains - the ones like Char that the audience can get into, and therefore can develop a fan following.

But closer to the traditional definition of a villain are the ones that the audience isn't supposed to like - the ones that are there for the audience to hate, and cheer when the hero kicks their arse.
You raise a great point. Personally, I went with the antagonists whose exploits I enjoyed watching. Katejina was one I grew to hate, but since she developed from spoiled girl who Uso had a crush on to, to maniacal diabolical chick who became one of his greatest adversary, she developed into one of the most interesting people in the V-Gundam universe. A person that I just couldn't take my eyes off of throughout the course of that show.

I guess I simplify it to who I found the most entertaining, likable and interesting vs. the ones that fell totally short, in my opinion. I dig your insight, though, on the matter. :)
Kishiria wrote:I had a moment of disappointment when I realized that Megazonecon or whatever it is will be in Orange County, FLORIDA, not Orange County CALIFORNIA.

(Edit)

Segueing into Char, he's one of my least-favourite character in all of Gundam. Sure, he's stylish, but his ideas of what he stands for keep swinging around insanely. First he's out to avenge his father, then he loses interest in that more or less and only kills my girl Kishiria because it's convenient to do so. Then he joins AEUG, then he wants to free Earth, then he wants to destroy Earth--WHAT DO YOU WANT, CHAR AZNABLE??????
The day we get a panel at Comic-con, Kishiria, I'm saving a seat just for you ^_^

As for your words on Char, they cut me to the core. ~_~

I can see what you mean over the run of his character's history, but I still think he's awesome, especially since he's flawed. His run was a roller-coaster ride, and I enjoyed all of it.
Last edited by Soul Bro Ryu on Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Chris » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:13 pm

Kishiria wrote:I had a moment of disappointment when I realized that Megazonecon or whatever it is will be in Orange County, FLORIDA, not Orange County CALIFORNIA.

Chris: Agreed on the Gundam Igloo. I wanted to love this series. Evil Zeon that I am, I did, but I couldn't. The Nazification was utterly over the top. It doesn't even make sense if you think about it; the colonies were filled with most of the population of Earth and most of the population of Earth is not German! What was puzzling to me was that everybody had German names but at the same time, the faces all had a distinct Asian cast to them.
Sorry about the Orange County... we'd love to have you in the audience. As to the Nazification of Zeon, as I stated in the episode, it's something that has bothered me for a long time. It seems as though MSG went out of its way to show the diversity of Zeon by having people from a variety of ethnic and geographic backgrounds. As you said, the colonies were filled with people from all over Earth, and Zeon exemplified this as well. However, ever since 0080, we've had this progressive Germanification of Zeon, and it makes less sense as time passes. If someone had IGLOO as their first Gundam experience, I wouldn't blame them for thinking that the Zeon really were Space Nazis because at this point it's hard to tell the two apart.
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Post by hotlimit » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:55 pm

Soul Bro Ryu wrote: The instrumental for "Return" by Self Scientific. Hope that helps, man. Can't believe that I didn't use that one sooner. ^_^
Thanks so much, I haven't heard that song in a decade. The local hip hop DJ when I was a kid (who, coincidentally, sounded just like Neo) would rarely say what he was playing.

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Post by hawk of endymion » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:10 pm

Wingnut wrote: I also propose that "Low Rent Treize" become Alejandro's official nickname from now on.

And openly insulting the Guntank. :shock: That takes some serious guts.
That's all I've ever saw with Alejandro, a Low Rent Treize. Treize so badly needs to be in the 00 universe, he was so under-ulitized in Wing. And insults to Guntank, well they bounce off like rounds from a Zaku.
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Post by Vent Noir » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:01 pm

hawk of endymion wrote:
Wingnut wrote: I also propose that "Low Rent Treize" become Alejandro's official nickname from now on.

And openly insulting the Guntank. :shock: That takes some serious guts.
That's all I've ever saw with Alejandro, a Low Rent Treize. Treize so badly needs to be in the 00 universe, he was so under-ulitized in Wing. And insults to Guntank, well they bounce off like rounds from a Zaku.
Well, maybe once 00 makes it into Super Robot Wars, Wing will be in the same game (I remember someone on the SRW boards also mentioning they'd like to see the results when Heero Yui, Sousuke Sagara and Setsuna F. Seiei get together).

Speaking of 00 in SRW, does anyone else think it and Macross Frontier could cross over very well? I could easily see Grace O'Connor working with the Innovators...
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Post by Reven » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:27 pm

I just had to sig that comment of Chris', it was too good to pass up.

Anyways, I somewhat have to agree with the comments on the Zudah. In the real world, wasn't something like what Zeon did with the Zudah, done actually?

And bring on DESTINY, that should be good to listen to. A lot of potential wasted >.>
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Post by skyknight » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:21 pm

Well, another interesting ep indeed; am I surprised that the first 11 eps of Code Geass R2 had lower then expected ratings, no - given the beginning storyline of R2 killed all the emotional build-up from S1, which I still lament for R2 not being so good as S1, similar to NBC's Heroes (anyone here besides me that still watches it?)

On MS IGLOO, yes I did watch the first part, but didn't bother to finish the whole series, as for many reasons stated in the podcast. A lot of Chinese (referring to Chinese from China, while I am Chinese-American or Taiwanese-American) don't understand why I can enjoy Japanese anime when some have the fetishes of Nazi Germany or military imperialism, I do say there are many anime that DON'T have'em, but unfortunately IGLOO does has them.

And I didn't take IGLOO as a serious production, but as a production made to satisfy o'skool Zeon fanboys. And yes, as I stated before, a TV/OVA production of Gundam Unicorn maybe the best way to tie up the UC universe.

Villains, oh yes, if there's no evil, then is there good?

One thing that I came to appreciate anime is characteristics of villains, which was miles higher than your 80's American cartoons. I wholeheartedly agree Char and Harman were the best villains in Gundam universe: both are beautiful beings, intelligent, and determined to get things done by themselves (not by ordering others). I see it as a shame that recent Japanese anime hasn't come up with a female villain close to Harman Khan (if there's one, please feel free to correct me!)

@ Gundam W: Zech and Treize were better characters at time than the 5 Gundam pilots in the series, and yes the Duke and the creepy skinny old man weren't that interesting as leaders of opposing-groups.

@ Gundam X: the Frost bros were interesting, but I thought their goal was shortsighted, and Garrod was right when he told both of them that they should've meet with DOME.

@ Turn-A Gundam: Gym, a Moonrace that yarns for the Spartan past, and doesn't give a damn about the rest. Yup, Gym did do me a favor by killing Sweatson (arrogant fat bastard!), and he was the better villain of the Moonrace.

@ SEED: Rau, I don't know what the original role for him during the early stages, as he was an ace and quite cunning with a hidden agenda of his own. In the end, he just became a homicidal manic trying to destroy the whole world, and the character design didn't do him any justice, he just had a normal face without the mask. Now if he was to have a face of 50-year-old on a body of late-20's coupled with various genetic defects, then he would be justifiable of hating the world. Azreal, agreed with most of you.

@ Destiny: unfortunately both villains, Lord Djibril and Gilbert, SUCKED! Djibril, the same as Azreal but more ruthless for no reasons (killing other Naturals siding with ZAFT), and dear Gil, what was his "Destiny" plan? Well it was no different from Patrick Zala's. I'll save the all the HATE for the next Gundamn!

@ 00: Ali, man how did they come up with this guy? I bet'cha Osama Bin-Laden will be looking for Ali to recruit, as this guys spreads chaos and destruction to wherever he goes. But the judge is still out as the series hasn't ended yet, which does give time for Graham/Mr.Bushido to make final adjustments.

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Post by wielder » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:46 pm

Shorter than expected, for understandable reasons, but you guys still did a good job.

Yes, MS IGLOO's continued nazification of the Zeon is definitely an unwelcome revision of the OYW, where if anything you could probably also draw some parallels with WWI's Imperial Germany or WWII's Imperial Japan, but the show still provided a new perspective on the conflict and was pretty good, if admittedly predictable.

Those failed Zeon designs were always a little interesting to see in action (even the Zudah, despite being a crappy suit, had plenty of style) and Oliver remained a likeable lead for the duration. He was loyal to a very questionable cause, which doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, but he was in a difficult position and even developed his own doubts as time went on, like you described.

I suppose newer Japanese creators just feel that the Nazi's military fashion and aesthetic is too "cool" to leave unexploited, but at the same time it's becoming a little too overused. If you see any faction wearing one of those uniforms, almost always they'll end up being villains. :P

Speaking of villains...Ali is definitely the best newcomer, no question, for all the mentioned reasons, but I still consider Scirocco to rank up pretty high up there. I detest the guy, completely, but that's what makes him a good bad guy and he has the skills to back up all his talk. Char's a better character, sure, but he's also much more sympathetic and not quite as outright villainous. To a lesser extent, maybe you could say the same about Haman, although I too regret she didn't have a better end. All the praise Treize gets makes me want to rewatch Wing, one of these days.
skyknight wrote:Well, another interesting ep indeed; am I surprised that the first 11 eps of Code Geass R2 had lower then expected ratings, no - given the beginning storyline of R2 killed all the emotional build-up from S1, which I still lament for R2 not being so good as S1, similar to NBC's Heroes (anyone here besides me that still watches it?)
It was a disappointment for an evening time slot, but Code Geass R2 actually had better ratings than the first season, which aired after midnight, if you compare all the numbers here, here, here and here. Pretty bad compared to how Gundam 00 is doing on TV, because it's not nearly as appealing to a mainstream audience, but the DVD sales make things more even. Of course, neither ratings nor sales are directly proportional to quality, I know, and this is true even within the Gundam franchise.
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Post by thanatos » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:31 am

You guys were spot on with how unbalanced MS Igloo is with its sympathizing with Zeon and hating on the Federation. All the other OYW series tend to take one side or the other, but still acknowledge that the other side is hardly pure evil. Hopefully future OYW Zeons will stay away from the Hugo Boss wardrobe.

I forget where I first heard it, but it bears repeating about the Zudah: That's what you get when you try to make a mobile suit go 3x faster without a coat of red paint.
Though I did enjoy the whole corporate politics aspect of mobile suit development which has only ever been touched on in 0083, Zeta and I think ZZ.

My shortlist for best villains: (keep in mind I have yet to see V or 00)
#1: Frost Brothers
#2: Gym Gingham
#3: Iron Mask
#4: Treize Kushrenada
#5: Anavel Gato
I have trouble calling Char or Zechs a villain since they's so easy to sympathize with.

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Post by hawk of endymion » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:34 am

thanatos wrote:
I have trouble calling Char or Zechs a villain since they's so easy to sympathize with.
That's true, but they both did some villainous things. Char's setup of Garma, killing Kycilia. Zechs' killing of the Alliance officer responsible for the Sanc Kingdom's defeat, the use of Libra.
Just because someone is not totally evil, does not mean they can't do evil things.
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Post by Bremics » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:37 pm

So how did the Best/Worst Villains of Gundams go down? Everytime I click the link, nothing happens just a blank page.

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Post by hawk of endymion » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:05 pm

Bremics wrote:So how did the Best/Worst Villains of Gundams go down? Everytime I click the link, nothing happens just a blank page.
How are you trying to download the show?
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Post by Bremics » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:17 pm

hawk of endymion wrote:
Bremics wrote:So how did the Best/Worst Villains of Gundams go down? Everytime I click the link, nothing happens just a blank page.
How are you trying to download the show?
I clicked the link on the first post, a new tab/window opens up, a white page shows up and it has the usual loading icon, and 30 minutes later nothing changes.

However I switched to IE from FF and now it worked. :D

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Post by Destiny_Gundam » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:31 pm

Bremics wrote:However I switched to IE from FF and now it worked. :D
And once again Internet Explorer is proven superior :lol:
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Post by CanadaMan » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:43 pm

Bremics wrote:
hawk of endymion wrote:
Bremics wrote:So how did the Best/Worst Villains of Gundams go down? Everytime I click the link, nothing happens just a blank page.
How are you trying to download the show?
I clicked the link on the first post, a new tab/window opens up, a white page shows up and it has the usual loading icon, and 30 minutes later nothing changes.

However I switched to IE from FF and now it worked. :D

Haman was everyone's second.
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Post by Bremics » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:58 pm

CanadaMan wrote: Right Click, Save As.
Don't be silly, that would be logical.

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Post by Red Comet90 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:13 pm

Good job on another podcast. I just recently starting subscribing to it and I'm glad I did. It keeps me up to date since I don't have much time to go to other websites to hear news or just hear others talk smack about Duke Dermail and Azrael.

Your top 5 worst and best antagonists section was awesome. I agreed with mostly everyone's decisions. Especially Char. What would Gundam be without him or Haman Karn who made him feel like a weakling when she made him beg.

@ Soul Bro: Emma could have been on the top 5 antagonists since she was on the Titans for a few episodes before defecting. :lol:

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Post by Kaioshin Sama » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:47 pm

Another new episode, but I have another issue I want to briefly talk about that your top 5 best/worst characters bit got me thinking of.

I've been noticing a certain trend around the internet as of late and I've been thinking it might potentially be a good topic for the Straight Talk Express. Basically a lot of people seem to have forgotten that how a character acts in a given situation and how they think they would have reacted in that situation are not the same thing and that a character behaving differently from the way they think they should act is not necessarily bad writing or characterization.

I've been seeing a lot of shows getting hammered for this, and it's often not even a matter of characters acting out of character which would actually be a legitimate issue, it's characters not behaving how a particluar viewer absolutely believes they should, whether it be the usual hot button issue of a character making a mistake in judgement (characters with flaws? Oh heavens no), or acting "emo" (The term has gained blanket status in the last couple of years to mean any time a character shows any regret whatsoever), and that viewer blaming it on the studio and writers, even if it's well within the logic of the scene and the characters personality for them to do these things.

Basically I think some people might need to hear a lecture on the fact that they are not the word of god when it comes to a particular characters actions and what they think they should be doing, and when they don't like how a character has acted in a given scenario then the onus is on them to explain why it is a legitimate characterization flaw. And if they can't find a way to prove that it is a real writing flaw and instead have to resort to supplanting their own standard of characterization instead of the what is actually the case, it then becomes their problem and not the studios for them not feeling the connect with character.

Anyway just a suggestion for something to maybe cover.

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Post by hawk of endymion » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:35 am

Kaioshin Sama wrote: I've been noticing a certain trend around the internet as of late and I've been thinking it might potentially be a good topic for the Straight Talk Express. Basically a lot of people seem to have forgotten that how a character acts in a given situation and how they think they would have reacted in that situation are not the same thing and that a character behaving differently from the way they think they should act is not necessarily bad writing or characterization.
Pleas put any topic suggestions in the topic suggestion thread, as we do add all suggestions from that thread periodically to our master topic list.
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Post by Chris » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:49 am

Kaioshin Sama wrote:Basically a lot of people seem to have forgotten that how a character acts in a given situation and how they think they would have reacted in that situation are not the same thing and that a character behaving differently from the way they think they should act is not necessarily bad writing or characterization.

I've been seeing a lot of shows getting hammered for this, and it's often not even a matter of characters acting out of character which would actually be a legitimate issue, it's characters not behaving how a particluar viewer absolutely believes they should, whether it be the usual hot button issue of a character making a mistake in judgement (characters with flaws? Oh heavens no), or acting "emo" (The term has gained blanket status in the last couple of years to mean any time a character shows any regret whatsoever), and that viewer blaming it on the studio and writers, even if it's well within the logic of the scene and the characters personality for them to do these things.

Basically I think some people might need to hear a lecture on the fact that they are not the word of god when it comes to a particular characters actions and what they think they should be doing, and when they don't like how a character has acted in a given scenario then the onus is on them to explain why it is a legitimate characterization flaw. And if they can't find a way to prove that it is a real writing flaw and instead have to resort to supplanting their own standard of characterization instead of the what is actually the case, it then becomes their problem and not the studios for them not feeling the connect with character.
I think we touched upon a related issue several times, most notably when discussing Mizushima's reaction to Japanese fans on the internet. This is along those same lines of what we already discussed - fans come with with list of 100 personal expectations of a show, and if it doesn't follow all of them, it sucks. If they don't like the way a certain character acts, even though that's how the character SHOULD act, it becomes the annoying catch all of "horrible writing."

Case in point: you mention the ever-annoying complaint of "emo," and I recall that in Gurren-Lagann after Kamina died, people were raging about Simon going "emo" for three episodes and how it ruined the show. What, do you expect someone to just be happy-go-lucky when a very close friend dies? It's like these people are projecting some unrealistic, tough-guy version of themselves onto these characters, and when the characters show any human emotions or flaws, they suck.

Even though we've discussed this, we'll probably come back to it because the problem is getting worse and someone needs to call out all these bitchy fans who have to whine about everything.
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