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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:52 pm 
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CanadaMan wrote:
I don't think SoulBro can hate, just ... dislike. His Loves, Men and Boys from all of the various series far outweigh any possibility of hating. That being said, does SoulBro actually hate any particular series?


What about Quess?

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:35 am 
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On the subject of calling creators "trolls", it's not necessarily a negative thing, but there are definitely examples of creators who enjoy jerking fandom's chains. Examples that spring to mind are Mike and Brian of Avatar: The Last Airbender (who got called "epic level trolls" for all the Ship Tease they put into the show), and Russel T. Davies of the new Doctor Who, who debunked a lot of widely-held fan theories (e.g. "Time Lords are sterile")


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:20 am 
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Kavik Ryx wrote:
CanadaMan wrote:
I don't think SoulBro can hate, just ... dislike. His Loves, Men and Boys from all of the various series far outweigh any possibility of hating. That being said, does SoulBro actually hate any particular series?


What about Quess?


That's true, he doesn't like Quess, probably because she is tougher than guys like Saji and Sai Argyle.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:37 am 
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hawk of endymion wrote:
Kavik Ryx wrote:
CanadaMan wrote:
I don't think SoulBro can hate, just ... dislike. His Loves, Men and Boys from all of the various series far outweigh any possibility of hating. That being said, does SoulBro actually hate any particular series?


What about Quess?


That's true, he doesn't like Quess, probably because she is tougher than guys like Saji and Sai Argyle.
More like tougher than Saji and Argyle combined lol

EDIT: Understood, won't happen again

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:41 am 
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chainsandguns, NEVER do that again. This is not 4chan. Consider this your only warning on the matter.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:43 am 
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I was surprised - and disappointed - that the reviews and comments of Code Geass: R2 did not mention Cornelia and Guilford coming back to life. I mean, both of them somehow surviving certainly annoyed me to no end. Not only did their survival push the limits of suspension of disbelief, neither character did anything once they were brought back. Ultimately, they both ended up being a waste of precious screentime.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:06 am 
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That's the thing, though - neither of them were dead to begin with. Just like Nunnally, the staff left their fates vague, and some fans chose to believe that they had died and been brought back. In other words, the "bad writing" is simply a product of the fans looking for another rope with which to hang R2.

Personally, I didn't think either of them was dead to begin with, and their getting a happy ending doesn't detract from the show at all. Now, just having them die would have been pointless and serve no purpose other than adding a couple more names to that official death list.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:53 am 
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If as you say that Cornelia and Guilford never died in the first place, then their survival stretched my suspension of disbelief too far in a show that is (in)famous for stretching disbelief. I mean, I was very tolerant of the first season, but R2 just wore me down.

I won't list all the examples of R2 demanding - nay, requiring - suspension of disbelief, but with relation to Cornelia, don't forget that both her and Shirley were gunned down. Shirley died from a single bullet to the abdomen. Cornelia survives after having her torso riddled with bullets. I just thought that she looked pretty dead. Even assuming Schneizel got her immediate medical attention, she - Cornelia - was thoroughly "aired" out. And then, how did she get to the island?

And though it may be mean and pointless to actually want Cornelia and Guilford to be dead, I argue that it is even more pointless to bring them back. If the writers are going to have them survive, why not give them a meaningful scene instead of one that hints the two may be in love, but doesn't explain anything.

I know it is just a work of fiction, and that demanding perfection is always going fail, because there is no perfect work of fiction. I realise that I should just chill and accept it for what it is. But it does annoy me; R2 could have been better in so many ways, and it is a shame that it didn't achieve the sort of glory that - with a few tweaks - it could have achieved. A good Anime, but only a shadow of the incredible breath of fresh air that was the first season.

I've rambled on long enough (sorry about that), so I'll finish up by saying that I really did enjoy this podcast, even if I didn't agree with the opinions of the speakers at times. It was a great pleasure to be able to listen to a bunch of dedicated Mecha fans talking informally for four hours about Mecha (and little else). Though this may be my first time listening to Gundamn, it won't be my last. Cheers.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:07 pm 
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Great episode, as usual. :)

Pretty good discussion, I think you guys had a rather fair assessment of R2, which seems to be a rare sight these days. True, R2 gets something closer to a 3/5 from me, compared to the first season's 4/5, indicating that there were additional problems and things I didn't like...but generally my points of view match yours. And while I'm at it, I know AmuroNT1's more of a C.C. fan, but I'm glad that he did mention how Kallen's situation was at least a little different (and better) from that of the other Black Knights at the end of the show.

Reading what Izayuukan pointed out above, and along the lines of something you guys also discussed, I was disappointed with how Cornelia was handled in R2 as whole and it would have been better to avoid that entire dilemma which reminds me of Mao's survival from Stage 15 to 16 back in season one. It doesn't break my suspension of disbelief, since I was expecting her to survive given that obvious similarity, but it did seem too convenient and a little cheap. Guilford...I didn't like what happened to him either, maybe even less, because while we didn't see the final moments of his mecha that still requires more rationalization. I didn't mind Nunnally's and Sayoko's return though, since like AmuroNT1 said there were specific details in Turn 18 which hinted at it.

Even so, if anything one of the strengths of Code Geass, including R2 in my opinion, is the fact that it still was more of a breath of fresh air compared to the average big franchise mecha show. I'm still looking for something that provides a similar experience.

Macross Frontier and Gundam 00 are good shows too, possibly great even, but they fall within the general "this is a Macross series" or "this is a Gundam series" framework. I'd like to see something a little more original and less predictable. It's not really a huge problem, because I can definitely enjoy stuff like Frontier or 00, just a matter of preference.

Speaking of which, I liked the Frontier segment too, but I am very frustrated at the lack of love triangle resolution. They gave the romance too much attention to simply leave it hanging, so who knows...maybe I'll stick around for the movie, hopefully it's not just a compilation.

And about Gundam Wing...I followed the show, on and off, when it was on TV, without giving it much of my attention. Perhaps it's about time to give it another try, if I have the chance. I'm speaking of the sub though, of course. :wink:


Last edited by wielder on Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Izayuukan wrote:
If as you say that Cornelia and Guilford never died in the first place, then their survival stretched my suspension of disbelief too far in a show that is (in)famous for stretching disbelief. I mean, I was very tolerant of the first season, but R2 just wore me down.


Cornelia's survival didn't bother me as much as Guilford. Multiple gunshot wounds I can deal with, exploding mecha a little harder.

In all honestly, I believe I'm the least forgiving of R2. Where there somethings I would've like to see go diffently? Yeah, but CG as a whole a really good show to me. Gonna hard pressed to see something like it for awhile.

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:01 pm 
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thanatos wrote:
Leroy Landers wrote:
The thing that always bothered me was when certain fans had disdain for MSG and the other UC shows, while citing what was great about Wing ignoring the fact that a lot of what made Wing great was lifted from past shows! I always wondered how people could be so blind?


I'll have to get my eyes checked because MSG was the second series I ever watched (Wing was the first) and I don't see any major parallels between the two (other than Zechs=Char) which aren't also seen in all Gundam shows.

Sorry, but Wing borrowed many things from UC.

First: From Mobile Suit Gundam: Zechs/Char: This is absolutely different from other masked man in Gundam series. Why? Because Zechs and Char's lives are almost the same:
Char and Zechs were both sons from a political leader that were killed in strange circumstances. Both of them had a sister and their identity were hidden. (Char Aznable/Casval Deikum, Sayla Mass/Artesia Deikum --> Zechs Marquise/Milliardo Peacecraft, Relena Darlian/Relena Peacecraft). Artesia and Relena both were adopted by one of their father's right wing. Both of them joined the enemy that killed their father for get revenge (Zechs joined OZ and Char joined Zeon).
Second: From Z Gundam: Titans was an Earth's elite military organization, with more political power than regular military forces, oppressing people from colonies. Behind them there were dark political intentions (Jamitov Hymen, for example). The same with OZ and Romefeller Foundation.
Third: From Char's Counterattack: Char and Zechs, after many battles (wars in Char's story), both were leaders of a colony movement (Neo Zeon and White Fang), which fight for the end of earth-colonies conflicts. The way to achieve it? Throw a big thing to Earth.
Fourth: From Char's Counterattack: Long time rivals, Amuro Ray and Char Aznable, fight their last duel, one against other, while the big thing falls to earth and soldiers try to stop that. The same with Zechs and Heero. Difference? They weren't long time rivals and their personal conflict makes no sense, compared to Char and Amuro's conflict, which began ten years ago.

Well, it seems that it isn't only masked man the similarities between Wing and the U.C.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Only in the most vague sense. Your first point: Totally invalid as there were masked men before Zechs. He was just the first one in a situation to have his backstory told in enough detail to be close to how it was with Casval.

The second point is the weakest of your four. Yes, OZ was more of an elite military power behind the UESA, but by the time of Operation Daybreak those parallels came to an abrupt end as the UESA was taken out of the picture entirely.

There is also a fundamental difference in point three from how things were in CCA. Zechs had Relena to help steer the world down the road to peace whether he won the fight or not. Char did not have that failsafe, and as such when he failed to drop Axis, things didn't really change in the Earth Sphere. And unlike Nanai, Noin was also in on the deal to help out in any way she could were Nanai was only fighting on Char's side.

And as for your forth point, I don't even know where you're trying to go here. It wasn't personal for Heero and Zechs like it was for Amuro and Char and I don't see how you think it was presented as though it was. The latter was just fighting things out between themselves and perhaps over Lalah, where the former was more a battle of their ideals and viewpoints only.

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Kenshiro wrote:
Artesia and Relena both were adopted by one of their father's right wing. Both of them joined the enemy that killed their father for get revenge (Zechs joined OZ and Char joined Zeon).


Except in Wing Relena plays a (limited) role in the story until the very end whereas Sayla simply fades into the background after MSG.

Kenshiro wrote:
Titans was an Earth's elite military organization, with more political power than regular military forces, oppressing people from colonies. Behind them there were dark political intentions (Jamitov Hymen, for example). The same with OZ and Romefeller Foundation.

You mean the same organization that Zechs joined? Wing borrowed from Zeon and the Titans to create OZ.

Kenshiro wrote:
Char and Zechs, after many battles (wars in Char's story), both were leaders of a colony movement (Neo Zeon and White Fang), which fight for the end of earth-colonies conflicts. The way to achieve it? Throw a big thing to Earth.


This is true, though I would just like to add that I think Wing did a better job of showing a progression of Zechs from OZ soldier to White Fang leader than UC did with Char from Zeon soldier to Neo Zeon leader.

I'm still not convinced that Wing is a UC clone. It could be argued that Wing is UC-inspired, but not a copy of UC. At least not anymore than 00 is based off of Wing. (forgive me Chris)


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:35 pm 
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Wingnut wrote:
And as for your forth point, I don't even know where you're trying to go here. It wasn't personal for Heero and Zechs like it was for Amuro and Char and I don't see how you think it was presented as though it was. The latter was just fighting things out between themselves and perhaps over Lalah, where the former was more a battle of their ideals and viewpoints only.


Though the problem with Heero and Zechs, (this might just be me) was that it just seemed incredibly forced. Their intentions were similar, their methods were mostly the same, and their philosophies paralleled. Yet the staff always needed them to be opposing each other. A good portion of their battles were absolutely useless, and they knew it! Heero is just reactionary, so I won't complain too much about him. But Zechs goes on about the evils of the world, the source of war, and how evil earth is, and then just goes on to act in the same way his enemies did.

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:43 pm 
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You can argue that anything that came after Mobile Suit Gundam was "inspired" by UC Gundam. So it is with Wing.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:44 pm 
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The Heero/Zechs rivalry is sort of one-sided in a sense. Zechs respects Heero's talents as a pilot and seems to think of him as a kindred spirit, but Heero doesn't really care for things like rivalries; if Zechs is on his side, good, but if he's not, he's prepared to fight to the very end in order to stop him. I suppose that's what you get with a hero who's more pragmatic and down-to-earth than a lot of other Gundam leads.

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:05 am 
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AmuroNT1 wrote:
The Heero/Zechs rivalry is sort of one-sided in a sense. Zechs respects Heero's talents as a pilot and seems to think of him as a kindred spirit, but Heero doesn't really care for things like rivalries; if Zechs is on his side, good, but if he's not, he's prepared to fight to the very end in order to stop him. I suppose that's what you get with a hero who's more pragmatic and down-to-earth than a lot of other Gundam leads.


Heero's disinterest in the rivalry gives me a slight respect for him (I still don't like him). However, the rivalry simply kills my liking of Zechs. He and Treize are two of the only people in the show who have an idea of what's going on, yet he acts in a way that is so dissonant to what he is trying to push. At least Treize was civil at appeared well thought out. You never really see what is going through Zech's mind, which makes him appear really shallow.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:08 pm 
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Well I thought Nina took the cake for "most hated female in Gundam"

I do agree that the females in Wing were by far kicked more ass than the rest. Sally Po was my girl. Though most kickass female pilot I say has to goto Kallen for beating down mr SpinZAKU when even he had his live geass activated.

Wing was the first Gundam show I saw and I fell hard for Gundam afterwards. I then picked up my DVD of MSG and alittle later 08th MS team and followed by G, Zeta, 0083, 0080 and also the SEEDs, watched Victory and Turn A. Now im on 00. Wing may not be the best Gundam show but I think its importance is up there for it was a gateway show into the Gundam franchise. We all have our problems with shows but no show is perfect. I rate Gundam Wing for that reason.

you cant go wrong with the origional Low-Rent Char


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:13 pm 
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ShadowCell wrote:
You can argue that anything that came after Mobile Suit Gundam was "inspired" by UC Gundam. So it is with Wing.


Well, there is string of plot/character elements that all gundam shows share, some of Wing's are just very blantant.

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:57 pm 
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Just been listening to the episode again and from my submitted article I thought I would find out about what the car is thinking it was a Alto for Irony sake but it wasn't it is a Suzuki Wagon R 3rd generation

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