Ep. 023 - Checkmate!

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thanatos
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Chris wrote:I thought I'd made it clear in the episode, but let me delve into it some more. No one is making comparisons between Wing and 0079, because Wing borrows elements from multiple UC series.
I suppose I wasn't really clear in my first post so let me rephrase that. When people say that Wing borrows elements from other Gundam shows, it's typically said as proof that Wing is a cheap, childish, UC knock-off. But I'm not saying you guys said that. I just wanted to make a point about something that crops up time and time again when people discuss Wing.

It's always dangerous when you juxstapose two shows, even when they are part of the same franchise. You can say show x and show y both share this common element, theme or symbol. But a line is crossed when someone says show x is the same thing as or is a total ripoff of show y, as people have done with Wing and 00.
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Destiny_Gundam
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Man, this episode damn near killed me.

Amuro, you were crying (or close to it) when finishing up that ep 25 summary, weren't you? Manly tears deserve to be shed.

I'm yandere-tsundere towards Wing. At first I loved it cuz I was young and easily impressed. Then I hated it cuz it was crap compared to stuff I watched later. Now I think it's relatively bad, but enjoyable on its own terms. I have an overall favourable opinion of it.

Kawamori was indeed an epic troll in Frontier. A troll being some one who does something to intentionally screw around with others. The biggest example is that episode with Ozma. All the death flags were there, including the pineapple and the shocked deck crew. Everything pointed to Ozma pulling a Roy, but Kawamori goes "Ha! Fooled you! He's alive!"

Saying Kawamori is a troll is not meant to be insulting. Just something people say in mock anger. Gotta hand it to Kawamori though. The man knows how to have fun.

My favourite Knightmare Frame is also the Gawain, with the Shinkirou in 2nd. I just wish the Robot Damashii Gawain wasn't $70...

And as for all the comparison talk... Everything is a rip off of something. There are no original ideas left. Don't dwell on it. The only originality left in the world is how you choose to combine the reused ideas.
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AmuroNT1
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Actually, embarrassingly enough, I had a really hard time thinking of talking points this time around. On my last appearance, I actually re-watched all the episodes we discussed, which is why I was bursting with crap to discuss. As opposed to just bursting with crap, which is what I usually am.

And I didn't cry at Turn 25 during the podcast...but I'll admit, I did when I first watched it. It was a very well-done sequence IMO, with the direction and the music all coming together nicely. Heck, it was about a week before I could actually listen to "Madder Sky" (the song that plays when "Zero" confronts Lelouch) or "Continued Story" (the song that plays over the epilogue) without choking up.

Also, what really annoys me about the Robot Damashii Gawain is that it's $70 for just a giant action figure; all it really has is opening hatches for the hadron cannons, cockpit, and landspinners, but nothing else. I know it didn't exactly tote around a crate of weapons, but a couple of alternate hands, including harken-fingers, would have been nice. It's worth noting, BTW, that the Damashii Shinkirou will come with the FLEIJA Eliminator spear and AP Territory effect parts.
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Love those two tracks, especially the 'Continued Story'.
Perfectly fits for R2 ending. I couldn’t hope for more.
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Chris
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Destiny_Gundam wrote:Kawamori was indeed an epic troll in Frontier. A troll being some one who does something to intentionally screw around with others. The biggest example is that episode with Ozma. All the death flags were there, including the pineapple and the shocked deck crew. Everything pointed to Ozma pulling a Roy, but Kawamori goes "Ha! Fooled you! He's alive!"

Saying Kawamori is a troll is not meant to be insulting. Just something people say in mock anger.
My problem is moronic phrases like this become more stupid internet group think. Now, because of Frontier, everything is described by people as "we're being trolled by _______________." I just find it really stupid and annoying.
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Kaioshin Sama
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AmuroNT1 wrote:
I don't think GW is the best show evar, but it's certainly a lot deeper than people give it credit for (as evidenced by LightningCount's rather thorough post).
And that gets me thinking. I'm not sure who it was that said it but the whole Gundam Seed Destiny taking a lot of pressure off of Gundam Wing thing is something I've kind of seen as well. The staff for Wing must just be thanking Fukuda and Morosawa every day for what they ended up doing with Seed Destiny to take the popular mantle of "worst Gundam series" off of Wing. And after just listening to the grilling the other guys gave 0083 in episode 20 I can't even imagine what is going to happen with Seed Destiny's roundup. The amount of things that show did wrong from top to bottom and the ways in which it could be discussed can easily fill an entire podcast and then some. It might just be simpler to talk about the few things it actually got right.

Anyway, I had a similar experience with Wing as many people seem to have had. I watched it when I was really young (about 13-14) so I didn't really get all of the plot points or political aspects of the series and was just in it for the action and the prospect of an anime dub on broadcast TV that didn't just rip the shows original script to shreds (which was a worthwhile and unique experience in itself back in 98'-99'). Then as I grew up and hadn't seen it in a while I went on to watch the U.C series (this time experiencing Gundam subtitled around the time I was starting to take uncut anime for granted as it slowly became the norm) and not quite remembering Wing all that well I thought of it as a crappier show. However, as I grew up even more and eventually went back to watch the subtitled version of Wing I found myself able to appreciate the series take on the whole Gundam motif a whole lot more then I ever did before. I still can't say it was the best paced or easy to swallow storyline the franchise has to offer, but it's definitely not all pretty boys and flashy action.

One thing I tend to notice about what you said though is that when a show has pretty boys like Gundam often does it seems to draw a lot of flak just because that's the first thing people see when they look at the characters and assume that it is all there is too them even as they go on watching AND even if it's glaringly obvious that there is more to them then meets the eye and there characters go more than skin deep. It's kind of like you said, people will only see what they want to see.
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Kavik Ryx
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Where some people will call Wing streamlined, or others simple, or others deep; I call it needlessly convoluted.

I'll keep this post short, because I don't feel like expelling all my feelings about Wing in one big mega-post. This will be somewhat big however. Though because I don't hate the show as much as I used to, I'll attempt to be civil.

I tried Wing about 2 and a half years ago when I was first getting into Gundam. It didn't interest me when it was on Toonami, and the very idea of it made me loathe the Gundam name until I saw SEED and 0079. When I did see it, I kept my standards low thinking, "maybe it's not as bad as I thought" or "hey, it can't be any worse than G." (This was before I got into G a few months later. Don't judge me!)

Either way, first impressions were mixed. I was mildly entertained, loved the music, and wanted to see where this was going. But then again, the characters were stagnant, action was dull, and the story seemed like it didn't know where it was going. I was mostly okay with this. Then came episode 12. From there on out, it occurred to me that I was bored S*i*less. There was no proper pacing, engrossing atmosphere, or plight of characters I felt anything for. I had no reason to care, and slowly, I stopped doing so.

BTW: Moon Moon>Wufei Episode

PS: I may have missed something, but I'm surprised that there was no joke about Ai-kun evolving into Aimo.
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hawk of endymion
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Kaioshin Sama wrote: And that gets me thinking. I'm not sure who it was that said it but the whole Gundam Seed Destiny taking a lot of pressure off of Gundam Wing thing is something I've kind of seen as well. The staff for Wing must just be thanking Fukuda and Morosawa every day for what they ended up doing with Seed Destiny to take the popular mantle of "worst Gundam series" off of Wing. And after just listening to the grilling the other guys gave 0083 in episode 20 I can't even imagine what is going to happen with Seed Destiny's roundup.
All I would say about the upcoming SEED Destiny roundup, is to stay tuned and get a lot of snacks ready. It might be the longest roundup in length and the most vicious in attacks. I believe the working title for that episode is "Chris' Counterattack".
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Areku
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hawk of endymion wrote:All I would say about the upcoming SEED Destiny roundup, is to stay tuned and get a lot of snacks ready. It might be the longest roundup in length and the most vicious in attacks. I believe the working title for that episode is "Chris' Counterattack".
Ohh boy, that's the first time I've literally LOL'd in a while. And here I actually thought it would be shorter because you'd handle it with kiddie gloves because you'd feel bad for being rough on something so defenseless. This should be interesting come (circa) episode 31...

Just do me a favor and make sure one of those bombs has "From Cagalli" written on it :lol:
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hawk of endymion
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Areku wrote:
hawk of endymion wrote:All I would say about the upcoming SEED Destiny roundup, is to stay tuned and get a lot of snacks ready. It might be the longest roundup in length and the most vicious in attacks. I believe the working title for that episode is "Chris' Counterattack".
Ohh boy, that's the first time I've literally LOL'd in a while. And here I actually thought it would be shorter because you'd handle it with kiddie gloves because you'd feel bad for being rough on something so defenseless. This should be interesting come (circa) episode 31...

Just do me a favor and make sure one of those bombs has "From Cagalli" written on it :lol:
Well, Destiny will know how all of us felt when it slapped us around.
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you mentioned mei on 00 compared to dietheart, well, i have to say dietheart is better for one reason...... he died first. :P

hey neo, chris, and soul bro, thanks for the help guys. the report is going really well.
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Are you going to be as harsh on Seed as you are on Destiny? As someone who likes Seed (but not GSD), I'll probably want to skip that episode if you are (plus I get the feeling that I'll probably have heard all the criticisms before...)
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Chris
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Areku wrote:Ohh boy, that's the first time I've literally LOL'd in a while. And here I actually thought it would be shorter because you'd handle it with kiddie gloves because you'd feel bad for being rough on something so defenseless. This should be interesting come (circa) episode 31...
It should be apparent by now that we don't handle things with kid gloves. I don't really care who it is I might upset with what I think about something.
Vent Noir wrote:Are you going to be as harsh on Seed as you are on Destiny? As someone who likes Seed (but not GSD), I'll probably want to skip that episode if you are (plus I get the feeling that I'll probably have heard all the criticisms before...)
The answer is no, but I don't like what you're getting at. It basically sounds like you're saying you can't handle criticism of a show you like.
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Areku
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Chris wrote:It should be apparent by now that we don't handle things with kid gloves. I don't really care who it is I might upset with what I think about something.
Oh no, you clearly don't handle things with kid gloves, but I honestly wondered if the sheer fragility and patheticness of Destiny would be able to stay your Bright-style face whup'in. You know, if you might pity it too much to hit it in all the places it's earned to be hit. But you've put that doubt to rest :wink:
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Leroy Landers
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Wing represents my first major clash with a segment of fandom. The thing that always bothered me was when certain fans had disdain for MSG and the other UC shows, while citing what was great about Wing ignoring the fact that a lot of what made Wing great was lifted from past shows! I always wondered how people could be so blind?
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Chris wrote: The answer is no, but I don't like what you're getting at. It basically sounds like you're saying you can't handle criticism of a show you like.
Sorry if I sounded a little defensive. It's just that I've seen a lot of Seed hate (moreso other places than here), and a lot of the lines ("Jesus Yamato", "The characters all look the same!", "It's just a retread of MSG") are starting to get a little old and stale to me.

On a lighter note (since I've been complaining a lot recently), the comment about people who have only watched Wing reminded me of an amusing incident at Manifest's mecha panel this year...

Host: Put your hand up if you're a mecha fan. (most of the room puts up their hand)
Host: Put your hand down if you've only seen Gundam Wing..." (a bunch of people put their hands down) "...and Gundam Seed." (more people put their hands down)
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Areku wrote:Oh no, you clearly don't handle things with kid gloves, but I honestly wondered if the sheer fragility and patheticness of Destiny would be able to stay your Bright-style face whup'in. You know, if you might pity it too much to hit it in all the places it's earned to be hit.
Nah, that's something I would do.
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thanatos
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Leroy Landers wrote:The thing that always bothered me was when certain fans had disdain for MSG and the other UC shows, while citing what was great about Wing ignoring the fact that a lot of what made Wing great was lifted from past shows! I always wondered how people could be so blind?
I'll have to get my eyes checked because MSG was the second series I ever watched (Wing was the first) and I don't see any major parallels between the two (other than Zechs=Char) which aren't also seen in all Gundam shows.
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Vent Noir wrote:Are you going to be as harsh on Seed as you are on Destiny? As someone who likes Seed (but not GSD), I'll probably want to skip that episode if you are (plus I get the feeling that I'll probably have heard all the criticisms before...)
I don't think you'll have to worry about that. I enjoyed SEED and contary to popular belief Chris enjoys SEED too. The only one you may have to worry about would be Soul Bro, but I don't think he'll be too bad either.
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I don't think SoulBro can hate, just ... dislike. His Loves, Men and Boys from all of the various series far outweigh any possibility of hating. That being said, does SoulBro actually hate any particular series?
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