Zeon Technology, One Year War Locations and Battle info

[halo1000]

Quite a lot of questions here but the majority are weapons development questions. I need these answering for research I'm doing for a fanfic featuring a set of upgrades to Zaku II's during the One Year War.

1) When did Zeon first introduce Beam Saber weaponry to replace their heat based melee weapons, and on which suits?

2) When did Zeon rollout their compact Beam rifle's for the gelgoog.

3) Where was the Corregidor Shoal Zone in relation to the Moon, A Baoa Qu, Solomon and Side 3? (Map would be useful, I seem to recall there being one on the Library of Londenion but I can't seem to get on the site.)

4) Asside from the few skirmishes between the Gelgoog test teams and the Federation patrols, was there any significant fighting in the Shoal Zone?

5) Does anyone have lineart for the Anti-Ship cannon used by the GM Camouf in the MS Igloo manga?

[T.V.]

1.) I believe the Gelgoog is the first Zeon MS to use beamweaponry of any kind. It's the first MS outfitted with a beam based melee weapon and a hand carried beamrifle. And the Gelgoog was used operationally for the first time on the 31st of december UC 0079 at the battle of A Baoa Qu.
It can all be found on the MAHQ profile for the MS-14 Gelgoog.
Perhaps beamweaponry were adopted by modified older MS designs afterwards but I'm not sure about that.

The rest I can't answer, but perhaps you can find the relevant info on Mark Simmons' (aka toysdream) website: http://www.ultimatemark.com/

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

One: Zeon never really "replaced" heat weapons with beam weapons -- the Gelgoog and the Gyan used beam weapons from the get-go, and as far as I know they never bothered to replace heat weapons on the Zaku/Gouf/Dom line with beam weapons. The only beam melee weapons ever seen on Zeon suits were the Gyan's beam saber and the Gelgoog's twin beam sword. According to Mark's timeline, the first Gelgoogs were rolled out in October, 0079, but notes that mass production of Gelgoog beam weaponry doesn't start until late November, and the Gelgoog isn't officially deployed until December 8th.

Two: I'm not quite sure what you're referring to when you say "compact" beam rifle. If you mean "compact" as in "MS-sized" rather than "battleship-sized" weapon, then my answer above should cover this question too. If you're referring to a separate variant of the Gelgoog's weaponry, then it's nothing I've ever heard of.

Three: I believe that the Corregidor shoal zone is around L1, near the former location of Side 5. But I can't remember a source for it so I can't check my facts, and thus could be completely off.

Four: During the One Year War itself? Mark's timeline makes a mention of one incident supposedly shown in MS Igloo, but other than that, nothing that I know of.

Five: I can't help you there, sorry.

Edit --

In response to T.V.'s reply; that's not quite right. Zeon used beam weaponry on many of its marine mobile suits well before the Gelgoog was rolled out, and even dismissing those, the first MS-mounted beam weapon developed by Zeon was the Dom's scattering beam gun, though its power was so low that it was virtually useless as an offensive weapon. The Gyan and the Gelgoog were the first non-marine Zeonic MS to use beam weapons really effectively, and though the Gyan was abandoned, the Gelgoog saw use significantly prior to the Battle of A Baoa Qu -- which, considering you reference the Ace Corps shenanigans in the Corregidor shoal zone, you're no doubt aware.

[toysdream]

I'm not sure how much use this info will be for a story about upgraded Zaku II units, but here goes...

1) Putting aside the Gouf's mysterious "heat saber," the first Zeon mobile suits to carry beam sabers would be the Gyan and Gelgoog. The Kaempfer also carries a pair of these weapons, but I think that's probably about it. Even the Act Zaku, which can use a beam rifle, doesn't seem to have beam saber support.

2) The Gelgoog's beam weapons entered production in late November of U.C. 0079, a month after the completion of the prototype Gelgoog itself. By some accounts, the Gelgoog Cannon and its beam cannon were developed as a substitute in the meantime.

3) It's never been clearly established where the Corregidor shoal zone is. Tomino's novels, where it was first mentioned, indicate that it's somewhere near A Baoa Qu.

4) The other skirmish we know about took place on November 8, during the testing of the Psycommu System Zaku. I listed some details of this on my Universal Century timeline.

-- Mark

[halo1000]

Great stuff, thanks guys. I'm kinda clutching at very minor facts for a Side Story fanfic here.

"The basic premise is that due to the lack of mobile suits a series of Zaku's are developed under the United Maintenance Plan and as such are equipped with generators from the scrapped Gyan project.

These Zaku's are thus able to power prototype beam rifles and specialised beam based melee weapons. The Zaku's are subsequently fitted with new weapons to test designs for different combat roles and are tested within the Corregidor Shoal Zone."

I'll also be doing a series of kitbashes to accompany the story and posting them up on hobbyfanatics.com. I'll hopefully be starting this project in the next month or so once I finish college for the summer.

[toysdream]

You know, in that case, there's something else I should mention...

In Zeta Gundam and Gundam ZZ, we see a variety of refitted One Year War mobile suits running around. These include a bunch of Zaku variations which appear to have had some kind of Hizack-style upgrade, giving them linear seat cockpits and upgraded generators. In particular, the Desert Zakus that appear in Gundam ZZ have Gelgoog-level power output and can use Gelgoog beam rifles.

As with the Act Zaku, I don't think we ever see the upgraded Zakus and Doms using beam sabers of any kind. But this does demonstrate that, if you swap in a new generator and give them the same power output as a Gelgoog, these machines can use beam rifles. Obviously, just because we never see old machines upgraded with beam sabers in the animation doesn't prevent you from doing it in a fanfic, but the animation definitely gives us a precedent for upgrading them with beam rifles.

-- Mark

[Zerosystem]

Are we just going my the original series here? IIRC, the Kampher was deployed days before A Baoa Qu, and it had a beam sabre.

Here's the only image I know that has the GM Camouf wielding the anti-ship cannon.

http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... itsjw3.jpg

Otherwise, here's a scan of an image of the Zudah with the same cannon.

http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zudahiz3.jpg

[T.V.]

Thanks for correcting me, Kirby.
Also, nice to see Mark contributing with his exhaustive knowledge.

"The basic premise is that due to the lack of mobile suits a series of Zaku's are developed under the United Maintenance Plan and as such are equipped with generators from the scrapped Gyan project.

I hope you'll have enough information to suit your needs, but staying consistent with the established material is often very difficult. So, I don't believe you should put too much effort into getting your facts straight although it definitely can add to the reading pleasure.

One thing that stands out though is that you're proposing to use Zimmad company technology (Zimmad YMS-15 Gyan) to be used in Zeonic designs (Zaku lineage). This strikes me as odd, since rival companies normally don't like to share their own technology with eachother, given historic real world examples.

Lastly, I have to second Marks 2nd post. Upgrades aren't abnormal nor uncommon. So, there is at least a precedent to work with, as Mark explained.
Putting Gelgoog systems into an adapted Zaku makes sense in that case. Especially because it's an inhouse job, with Zeonic having developed both MS and thus having intimate knowledge of both types, which may share similar design solutions making the upgrade of the Zaku more feasible.

A third option would be that the development of the Minovsky reactors is outsorced to different companies, similar to jet engines being designed and built by specialized engine companies that aren't part of the aircraft building companies IRL.
Afterall, with the increased complexity of future systems, specialisation in certain fields is almost guarantueed, with multiple companies having to work on a single project rather than the other way around.
So, the same could still be true for fictional sci-fi settings.

Perhaps that's something you'd like to adress in your fanfic.
That is, if you want to delve into that, of course.

[Zerosystem]

One thing that stands out though is that you're proposing to use Zimmad company technology (Zimmad YMS-15 Gyan) to be used in Zeonic designs (Zaku lineage). This strikes me as odd, since rival companies normally don't like to share their own technology with eachother, given historic real world examples.

Not really. Back in the days of WWII, governments took control of economies and companies and made them produce so and so, even if it was made by a rival, simply because it was a desperate time in war, and relatively petty rivalries were the last thing needed in wartime. Also, I can't recall where I remember this from, but I think that even though Zeonic may have developed the Gelgoog, Zimmad gave them a hand with with the vernier systems.

[toysdream]

Also, I can't recall where I remember this from, but I think that even though Zeonic may have developed the Gelgoog, Zimmad gave them a hand with with the vernier systems.

That's right - according to current sources like the MG kit manuals, the Gelgoog uses Zimmad thruster technology, probably because it worked so well in the Dom series. In return, the other companies that contributed technology to the Gelgoog were given OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) licenses so that they could contribute to the production effort.

This isn't the first such merging, either. Apparently Zimmad was given a similar OEM license for the Gouf, since the final version incorporated some technology from Zimmad's rival machine YMS-08A. And the MS-06R-1A High Mobility Type Zaku II replaced the unreliable Zeonic-brand thrusters of the original R-1 version with superior Zimmad engines. According to the MSV Collection File, the Zeonic engineers resisted the idea of using a competitor's engines, but test pilot Elliot Lem persuaded them to make the switch.

So there's a consistent pattern of Zimmad having superior engine technology and Zeonic grudgingly using Zimmad engines in their own machines. On the other hand, Zimmad's always been playing catchup when it comes to beam weapons; Zeonic was already experimenting with beam weapons when Zimmad was finishing up the Rick Dom, and the Gelgoog's beam weapon support is superior to that of the Gyan. Zimmad seems an unlikely candidate to succeed where Zeonic failed, and create a beam weapon version of the Zaku, but perhaps that gives them that much more to prove.

-- Mark

[halo1000]

Hmmm, looks like I've sparked quite a bit of discussion on this.

I'm working on the specs for the standard version of my Zaku upgrade as well as the three variants. One's gonna be a heavy weapons type, one a mid range unit and the other a high mobility type.

I was thinking of using slightly altered specs of the Act Zaku's beam rifle for these ones, what do you think?

[T.V.]

I'm not up to date on the Act Zaku, but if you keep in line with the donor equiment specs, you should be fine IMO.
Also, to add to Mark's comment, why not make the Zimmad's beamrifle a bit more unpractical than the eventually adopted Zeonic one?
Just like the retroactive Zudah MS, have a weapon that perhaps is more unwieldy (size/mass), less reliable (delicate equipment?), or otherwise less usable for general purpose use (too limited shot capacity?).
Of course it should have some advantages (firepower, accuracy, range?) over the Zeonic design to make it worthwhile to explore though.
Perhaps it could be hooked up to the MS via an additional 'Zaku' cable to draw its power directly from the increased output reactor.
Would make it less cumbersome to modify the existing Zaku than fielding a new internal powerconduit in the arm for the beamrifle's increases power requirements.

This isn't the first such merging, either. Apparently Zimmad was given a similar OEM license for the Gouf, since the final version incorporated some technology from Zimmad's rival machine YMS-08A. And the MS-06R-1A High Mobility Type Zaku II replaced the unreliable Zeonic-brand thrusters of the original R-1 version with superior Zimmad engines. According to the MSV Collection File, the Zeonic engineers resisted the idea of using a competitor's engines, but test pilot Elliot Lem persuaded them to make the switch.

This exactly illustrates what I meant.

Sharing technologies really is exception to the norm. While it does and did happen, it's not the normal way a company likes to deal with market competitors. They only do it when forced to, such as certain extreme cases in wartime.
And the above quote is a fine example of plausibly working it into the story. This coming from a near official source no less.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Just to add, simply having a higher output reactor doesn't necessarily mean a MS could use a beam weapon, much less effectively or multiple beam weapons. After all, that was one initial thought I recall earlier on that was quickly debunked (some people assuming that 1000+ kw reactor-powered MS could use beam weapons), yet we know that there are various MS even in the OYW with 1000+ kw reactors that cannot/do not use beam weaponry of any kind.

So even if, as a post above showed from sidestory material, a Zaku II FZ Zaku II Kai had a Gyan-type generator, that doesn't necessarily mean the Zaku II itself could automatically pick up and use a beam weapon of any kind. In fact, chances are that most of the generator power went to other systems like its thrusters. We even see MS as far as Victory Gundam with 3500+ kw reactors that are stated to not be able to use beam weaponry (at least effectively for some of them), yet MS with lower reactor power being able to use several at once.

It partially depends on where the generator power is focused to.

[Lans]

It's probably more toward the cooling system. Specifically, cooling system ability to cope up with additional heat the beam weapon generates. As we know beam weaponry generate a lot of heat although we don't know how much, but I think it's safe to assume that it's hot enough to be a problem for the MS. Especially for MSs that by one reason or another aren't designed to facilitate the use of beam weaponry in their service time. Such MSs are more likely to have cooling systems that aren't good enough to cope with the excess heat of the beam weaponry. Thus it's less likely they would be able to operate beam weaponry, although forced use in certain circumstance might be possible for one or two shoots before either the generator give up or the system overheats.

Note: Unlike in the atmospheric or underwater conditions, in space you couldn't get the heat dispersed easily since there's no air or water to facilitate that. Not to mention that the MS itself generate a good amount of heat from basic AMBAC to the reactor own excess heat and propulsion system.

[halo1000]

Hmmm, thats interesting, maybe if I add some external heat sinks to deal with the cooling issue (like the fusion cannon from MS Igloo).

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Well, it's probably a bit of both. After all, in the case of the Zaku II Stutzer, it obviously isn't meant for beam weaponry, so they had to attach a whole other generator meant specifically for use of the Gelgoog beam rifle for the Zaku II Stutzer to be able to use it without too much trouble. Probably both to allow it to access enough power to use it AND to prevent it from overheating from its use.

[halo1000]

That had also crossed my mind, I wanted one of Zaku designs to use a large beam cannon similar to the Rick Dom's beam bazooka and I'd considered having it use an external generator like the Gundam G04's Mega Beam Launcher.

Or alternatively I could hook it up to another Zaku like Dozle's late type Zaku has to in order to use the Mega Particle Gun's in it's chest.

http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/fukuchi/ms-06r-2s.htm

[Zerosystem]

An external generator for a beam cannon? Sounds like the GM Sniper, or the Zaku I Sniper. The Zaku I sniper had a beam sniper rifle, but since the Zaku's generator wasn't up to snuff, it had a fairly large backpack that probably housed a second generator.

[Gerbera345]

Or alternatively I could hook it up to another Zaku like Dozle's late type Zaku has to in order to use the Mega Particle Gun's in it's chest.

To me the idea of having to tow around a second mobile suit to serve as little more than a self-propelled battery seems like an amazingly bad idea. The carrier vessel has to dedicate space and maintenance crew to the storage and repair of a unit that can contribute little to military operations on it's own. It also brings with it the idea that if either one of the pair receives damage that renders them inoperable then the remaining unit suffers a large decrease in it's own effectiveness. Of course very few folks would point that out to Dozle.


I could imagine a Zaku being fitted with an uprated reactor and the fact Zaku II's are milling around years later with beam rifles proves that it's quite possible but in the OYW era it would be a heck of an engineering challenge. I have this mental image of a Zaku with a somewhat bulbous torso to accomodate a physically larger reactor and wielding a beam rifle with a physical connection to the main reactor due to the lack of appropriate power and coolant feeds in the Zaku's arms.

[toysdream]

I have this mental image of a Zaku with a somewhat bulbous torso to accomodate a physically larger reactor and wielding a beam rifle with a physical connection to the main reactor due to the lack of appropriate power and coolant feeds in the Zaku's arms.

Sounds like the MS-06R-2P, the original version of the MS-06R-2 Zaku II, whose torso was expanded to house a bigger reactor so that it could drive a beam rifle. No extra cables required, as far as we know, but the Zaku I Sniper Type definitely has cables connecting its beam rifle to its generator backpack.

-- Mark