Zeon Design Philosophy

[Commander 598]

Were Zeon designs (Across the board, not just MS) really all they were cracked up to be or were they just the byproduct of the super robot days?

It seems everything from ships to tanks and even uniforms suffer greatly from this style thing. Musai's have no point defense to speak of until a retcon of sorts in either 0080 or 0083, no Zeon warships seem to have any weapons on the bottom, etc - incredible that a "race" that lives in the vacuum of space fails at spaceship design. Most Zeon mobile suits seem to all be fitted with spikes that I can't recall have ever done anything (The design of the Gouf Custom's spikes is totally incapable of doing anything) and really, with their clearly thinner than would be necessary to make an attempt to use them hurt both parties armor especially at the dangerously high velocities of space combat, how would they? The Magella Attack Tank is laughable in every way from it's exposed cockpit to it's ridiculously high profile as well as it's clear lack of armor enabling it's turret to fly. The Dopp, would such a design even be capable of flight in reality? Uniform design (And just about everything else really) is far too flashy for a faction often billed as Space Nazi's. It looks even sillier next to Federation designs where warships have turrets pointing in every direction possible, point defense wherever possible, and obvious missile launchers if there's any room left.

It honestly feels like the designers can't really decide whether they want a WW1 "Royalty Faction" (Even WW1 Germany's spiked helmets became optional after they started attracting ire of snipers) or a WW2 Facist Dictatorship. From more recent series, one gets the feeling that they really want to get away from this original silliness but they seem to not want to totally redesign everything probably due to fears of alienating the fanbase so they make due with color schemes, new machines incorporating logical thinking, (The Zudah and Jotunheim of IGLOO come to mind here) as well as the fact that most Gundam series have managed to remain far less outlandish in their designs.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss a theoretical retcon of ALL The Principality of Zeon's Forces without COMPLETELY changing the "theme" of it all, Zeon units should still be "different" (Alien roundness and mono-eyes are kind of a requirement, spike antennas are still acceptable, etc). Say perhaps the Magella should be more of a powerful super heavy (Or at least heavy and by heavy I mean weighs more than a Zaku) tank (With a 175mm gun it really should be) with an appearance like that of the Halo Scorpion. See? I just turned a laughable design into something that sounds like it could have been a major part of Zeon conquering most of the Earth in under a year without really changing it's appearance that much. Possibly supplement it with a lighter mediumish tank, we see one in the non-canon MS ERA pics and it looks like a Panzer IV.

I don't think fully "fixing" the warships is possible without a complete redesign though whether or not fully fixing them is required is up for debate.

Note: This is not exactly a "realism" debate, if it were I would be ranting about exposed bridges or something. This is more about "relative realism".

[Zerosystem]

I believe the in-universe explanation, was that Zeon's earth-use machines were designed and tested inside colonies. The Dopp, particularly was designed with such a strange overall shape because the Zeon engineers only had data and computer simulations to rely on, with no real way to test them accurately in colonies. Inside a colony, it's quite easy to fly. Simply get into the centre of the colony, at more or less of an equal distance from the ground above and below you, and the force of gravity is nonexistent or minimal. The Gundam Mk II demonstrates this well inside Gryps in the beginning of Zeta.

Also, the Zeon were somewhat arrogant, having first developed a mobile suit. They built the Zaku, a large, powerful weapon of war, outclassing the Federation's contemporary space combat fighter, in many aspects. The damn thing is essentially a monster. Why not add to it by using a bit of psychological warfare? The spikes and monoeye would have added to the 'monster' image, much like the mounted sirens did for the German Stuka while dive bombing.

As for the Musai, keep in mind, it's a carrier. It depends on the mobile suits for anti-fighter and general carrier defense. Compare this to the Federation's cruisers, which will be complemented with a squadron of fighters. For the Musai's defense, you only need a mobile suit at point to provide defence from all angles. As for the Federation cruiser, it will need underside turrets to defend against attackers, since the defensive fighters have relatively low firepower against the attacker's armor, and will need to make several strafing runs, instead of acting like a turret, which the mobile suit can do.

The Magella attack tank is lightly-armoured, for a few reasons. It's meant to be fire-support, not the main offensive unit. Zeon produced these en masse, because it filled the role of fire support and a short-range fighter well enough. The high profile is due to the fight capability of the Magella top, for design of technical reasons beyond me.

As for other series, some of them had different mechanical designers, and it was reflected in the designs of the MS (0080, 0083) or the designs were just plain updated for a different look (08th MS Team). The stuff of the original series was old, and there obviously wasn't enough to make the design as detailed or as 'realistic' as 08th MS Team.

As for your idea of a 'theoretical retcon' of in-universe mecha designs, it reminds me of another in-universe reason for why the units look so different from series to series. Late into the OYW, in order for Zeon to streamline unit production and efficiency, and also to cut costs, the United Maintenance Plan was enacted. It basically updated and revised MS designs, to the point where their design and operation would be much more effective than in the past with unnecessary design details.

Still, I have to say, you're just ranting about why a '70s super robot-inspired show is lacking in extreme realism. They didn't have the time, resources or thought to create a truly realistic mecha show back then. 08th MS Team is different, because it was a 12-episode OVA, it did have the resources to go and update all the designs, and provide some more insight into the gritty of OYW earthside mecha combat.

[mutantshark]

Still, I have to say, you're just ranting about why a '70s super robot-inspired show is lacking in extreme realism.

My thoughts exactly. Shoulder spikes, V-fins, giant robots with 'faces' - this stuff is just the staple of mecha anime. These things are all still around, although maybe better integrated into a 'realistic' setting.

[Commander 598]

I believe the in-universe explanation, was that Zeon's earth-use machines were designed and tested inside colonies. The Dopp, particularly was designed with such a strange overall shape because the Zeon engineers only had data and computer simulations to rely on, with no real way to test them accurately in colonies. Inside a colony, it's quite easy to fly. Simply get into the centre of the colony, at more or less of an equal distance from the ground above and below you, and the force of gravity is nonexistent or minimal. The Gundam Mk II demonstrates this well inside Gryps in the beginning of Zeta.

I'd continue complaining about the Dopp, but I just remembered how face palm worthy Fed. aircraft short of the Jet Core Booster 2 were in everything but aesthetics, at least in recorded stats.

Why not add to it by using a bit of psychological warfare? The spikes and monoeye would have added to the 'monster' image, much like the mounted sirens did for the German Stuka while dive bombing.

I should point out how sirens on a Stuka aren't exactly eating tons of valuable resources and possibly hampering it's defensive abilities, but half of that is a realism debate. To be honest though I'm really not that bothered by it, though this feeling varies with design.

As for the Musai, keep in mind, it's a carrier. It depends on the mobile suits for anti-fighter and general carrier defense. Compare this to the Federation's cruisers, which will be complemented with a squadron of fighters. For the Musai's defense, you only need a mobile suit at point to provide defence from all angles. As for the Federation cruiser, it will need underside turrets to defend against attackers, since the defensive fighters have relatively low firepower against the attacker's armor, and will need to make several strafing runs, instead of acting like a turret, which the mobile suit can do.

Every Federation ship and I think every ship designed for everyone after the fact has had point defense. If the measely number of MS a Musai carries were all the defense it actually needed why then does every other ship ever created, some with a much larger MS complement have actual point defense?

The Magella attack tank is lightly-armoured, for a few reasons. It's meant to be fire-support, not the main offensive unit. Zeon produced these en masse, because it filled the role of fire support and a short-range fighter well enough. The high profile is due to the fight capability of the Magella top, for design of technical reasons beyond me.

I'm fairly certain this goes against established scenes where entire formations of Magella are on the spearhead of an assault against the White Base (It's been a very long time since I've seen MSG so I could be off) If it's primary purpose was support why is it not actually referred to as a tank destroyer or a self propelled gun (In which case it's still vastly inferior to any sanely designed SP artillery platform with it's apparent lack of turret functionality) Also, I'm fairly certain that the vast majority would agree that the fighter turret concept was dumb from the start.

Still, I have to say, you're just ranting about why a '70s super robot-inspired show is lacking in extreme realism. They didn't have the time, resources or thought to create a truly realistic mecha show back then. 08th MS Team is different, because it was a 12-episode OVA, it did have the resources to go and update all the designs, and provide some more insight into the gritty of OYW earthside mecha combat.

I think you're mistaken, unless you can cite some example of Federation weapons being seemingly designed by a mad man beyond the Gundam having a face and shiny color scheme. This is about how Fed tech = "Hey that ain't half bad" while Zeon tech = "LOL! Are you serious?"

[ShadowCell]

How easily we forget the spectacle of the Guntank in space.

What you're complaining about is merely aesthetics, and that devolves entirely to personal taste. The other possibility is that you've totally forgotten that this is an anime show from 1979 that you're talking about. Either way, you're going to have to supply me with a reason to keep this thread open, since there's no point to it other than complaining about the aesthetics of a 70s giant robot cartoon.

[mcred23]

I'd continue complaining about the Dopp, but I just remembered how face palm worthy Fed. aircraft short of the Jet Core Booster 2 were in everything but aesthetics, at least in recorded stats.

How are Federation aircraft "face palm worthy"? The EFAF played a huge role in the OYW (Particularly at places like Odessa).

Every Federation ship and I think every ship designed for everyone after the fact has had point defense. If the measely number of MS a Musai carries were all the defense it actually needed why then does every other ship ever created, some with a much larger MS complement have actual point defense?

It's both a design flaw and a reflection of what the Musai is ment to do; carry it's MS and support them from long range. That said, it's not the only ship to lack close range weapons; the Federation's Big Tray land battleships have nothing other than large cannons, the Chivvay from 0080 (Name changed from Tivvay, it seems) looses it's AA weapons and the Irish class from Zeta is only shown to have main cannons. Even years later, ships like the Zamouth Jeth from the Crossbone Vanguard lack short range weapons (As does the Zamouth Nada class, although that may be due to it's utterly tiny size...).

I'm fairly certain this goes against established scenes where entire formations of Magella are on the spearhead of an assault against the White Base (It's been a very long time since I've seen MSG so I could be off) If it's primary purpose was support why is it not actually referred to as a tank destroyer or a self propelled gun (In which case it's still vastly inferior to any sanely designed SP artillery platform with it's apparent lack of turret functionality) Also, I'm fairly certain that the vast majority would agree that the fighter turret concept was dumb from the start.

Yeah, we do see the Magella used as attack units, and I'm not sure where the idea comes from that they are a support unit. As for the fighter turret concept, it is interesting to say the least, and I really wonder how effective the Magella was when fighting was it was designed to fight; tanks, something we have never seen it do, we always see them fighting MS, with some degree of effctiveness, I might add (The 175mm means you have to give them some respect).

But, as ShadowCell notes, most of your complaints are about aesthetics, and arguing about that is completely and utterly pointless, so lets just drop that line of discussion now, before it leads to this thread being dropped...

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Quite frankly, most non-mobile suit mechanical designs in Gundam are quite silly, whether they're Federation machines or not. The only examples I can think of that aren't a bit daft are the Ra Cailum and Clop class ships in Char's Counterattack, which have been shown to have actually effective point defense weapons (well, they did have a bit of psycoframe help there, didn't they...), and things like large radiator fins to help get rid of excess heat (which would be a huge problem in a space ship powered by a nuclear reactor. The Ra Cailum's radiators point at each other, though, which is pretty stupid.).

Other fun examples of stupidity include a main battle tank with two main cannons (what's the point of THAT?!), assault carriers with insufficient point defense (anyone else remember the Albion's mobile suits standing around on the hull, acting as point defense turrets?), and warships with exposed, unarmored command bridges (a practice so widespread that I can't actually think of an exception).

[Wingnut]

Other fun examples of stupidity include a main battle tank with two main cannons (what's the point of THAT?!), assault carriers with insufficient point defense (anyone else remember the Albion's mobile suits standing around on the hull, acting as point defense turrets?), and warships with exposed, unarmored command bridges (a practice so widespread that I can't actually think of an exception).

More guns = more power. In theory anyway if not practice.
Oddly enough the Albion did have quite a few AA guns spread around the hull so that may be more of a situational case where you need to keep your MS close, but the chaos of the battle means that they are confined to being positioned on the ship itself rather than a screen around it. This is shown clearly when Keith tries to go after Nina when she takes off in the core fighter and can't leave the ship due to heavy fire around it when he tries to pursue her. Some classes of ships in the CE also have a good amount of point defense systems as well such as the Nelson and Nasca class ships as well as the Archangel and Minerva of course.

The open bridge seems to stem from the fact that Minovsky particles really mess up long range visual sensors and other scanning devices to the point where the Mark I eyeball can be just as effective if not more so. Thus the more exposed bridge rather than a CIC like on the new Galactica.
This begs the question of why they didn't just have a dedicated lookout post above a deeper armored bridge, but they might have thought something like that would make for an even easier target to go after plus info would have to be relayed downward where on the existing designs the Captain is right there to see things himself.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

The open bridge seems to stem from the fact that Minovsky particles really mess up long range visual sensors and other scanning devices to the point where the Mark I eyeball can be just as effective if not more so. Thus the more exposed bridge rather than a CIC like on the new Galactica.

If they can outfit mobile suits with cameras and the like to give the pilot a view of the battlefield without resorting to windows, then I'm quite sure they can do the same thing for a warship's bridge. Panoramic command bridge... now there's a thought.

[T.V.]

More guns = more power. In theory anyway if not practice.

Actually it's quite the opposite.
More guns = less kill power (for a given weight class).

Instead of mounting two cannons, a tank of the same weight class could have one (bigger) cannon with more or less double the penetrating power and 30% more range for an assured kill.
The other benefits are:
- reduced complexity (cheaper and/or quicker to produce, inherently more reliable)
- possibly lower profile (less space needed in the turret)
- more space for the occupants, eletronics and munition.
- more stable firing platform (guns aren't off-centre).
- reduced crew workload (only one gun to operate).

A twin cannon tank's only possible benefit would be a higher rate of fire, but that's not significant when the enemy tank's assured kill range is superior.


On the subject of Gundam, most -if not all- designs make little to no sense from a real world perspective. Both in terms of engineering practicality and usage.
However, one can't be too critical of it, like others pointed out.
After all, it is 'just' an (pre-)teen oriented cartoon, with all the limits and different aims it entails. I actually believe you have to give them credit for something.

The irony in your initial critique, Commander 598, is that it proves that MSG has been a lot more substantial and succesful than could've been imagined during its creation.
Without MSG, you wouldn't have anything to analyse so 'deeply,' for example.
At the very least they've made you interested enough to ponder things that were either impossible, impractical or simply unheard off at the time.

Not bad for a ´70s kids show made to sell flashy toys to youngsters, if I may say so.

P.S.
I don't mean to say you shouldn't critize MSG or seek to improve it based on what you know today, but you have to value it for what it currently is in relation to what it originally was meant to be.

Personally I'm not too fond of MSG for similar reasons. It is probably simply too dated for me to get into. I can't get drawn into it, because it's too far removed from what I'm comfortable with.
That said, I do appreciate it for what it is though and on that level it captivates and inspires me greatly.

[Commander 598]

How are Federation aircraft "face palm worthy"? The EFAF played a huge role in the OYW (Particularly at places like Odessa).

If you'll not their equipment loadouts, which could theoretically not be ALL they could have been kitted out with, you'll note that they have an extremely limited amount of armament with anywhere from 2 to 4 MGs and a pathetic number of unguided rockets. The prop driven Skyraiders of 'Nam had 15 external hard points, and this plane was operational from the 50s at least. But anyway, as I said, theoretically they could have had more armaments just we never saw them.

It's both a design flaw and a reflection of what the Musai is ment to do; carry it's MS and support them from long range. That said, it's not the only ship to lack close range weapons; the Federation's Big Tray land battleships have nothing other than large cannons, the Chivvay from 0080 (Name changed from Tivvay, it seems) looses it's AA weapons and the Irish class from Zeta is only shown to have main cannons. Even years later, ships like the Zamouth Jeth from the Crossbone Vanguard lack short range weapons (As does the Zamouth Nada class, although that may be due to it's utterly tiny size...).

The original Chivvay and Igloo Chivvay both have substantial point defense, as does the Chivvay Kai in Zeta. I would truly expect that a vessel over half as long as a modern Nimitz carrier might be something less than completely and utterly defenseless without it's MS complement sitting on top of it.

I really wonder how effective the Magella was when fighting was it was designed to fight; tanks, something we have never seen it do, we always see them fighting MS, with some degree of effctiveness, I might add (The 175mm means you have to give them some respect).

There is likely a bit of difference between hitting a walking tower much taller than you than something less than half your height. From it's appearance, you have to wonder just how Zeon even managed to take as much territory as it did. Even if they were cheap to mass produce there's still the fact that Federation air superiority means a tank rush is unlikely to succeed. Has a Magella ever turned it's turret/cockpit like an ordinary tank?

If they can outfit mobile suits with cameras and the like to give the pilot a view of the battlefield without resorting to windows, then I'm quite sure they can do the same thing for a warship's bridge. Panoramic command bridge... now there's a thought.

To be honest it's rather a common theme in sci-fi (Remember the Executor?) even if it's no the most logical idea. Besides, being in the bowels of a warship has never really helped anyones survivability in Gundam.

How easily we forget the spectacle of the Guntank in space.

What you're complaining about is merely aesthetics, and that devolves entirely to personal taste. The other possibility is that you've totally forgotten that this is an anime show from 1979 that you're talking about. Either way, you're going to have to supply me with a reason to keep this thread open, since there's no point to it other than complaining about the aesthetics of a 70s giant robot cartoon.

Whether a warship is defenseless 90% of the time or a tank is completely incapable of functioning in it's intended role is hardly a discussion of aesthetics.

[ShadowCell]

Whether a warship is defenseless 90% of the time or a tank is completely incapable of functioning in it's intended role is hardly a discussion of aesthetics.

Yes, it is, because none of this stuff is real. The entire subject of your apparent scorn is a set of props from a giant robot cartoon from 1979, where the dominant taste (to say nothing of budget restrictions and animation techniques) tended towards the colorful and extravagant. Hence, tanks with flying turrets and giant robots with spikes and stuff. Some of those things have been retroactively explained, either officially or by fans (for example, someone suggested that the Dopp's raised cockpit is to provide extra visibility due to Minovsky interference), but either way what you're complaining about is how everything looks.

And if that's all this thread is for, then there's not much reason to keep it open.

[Cel Chad]

The internal design of the Zeon warships such as the Musai its similar to that seen in the lair of the "Almighty-evil-guy" of the Super Robot universe. I know this will sound incredibly stupid and noobish, but someone had to say it at some point: beside the fascist look intentionally given to Zeon (At least in MSG 79, barely seen the other UC series), the series were thinked with great inerce from shows like Daitarn 3, Zambot and Chudenji Robo, you couldn't expect to watch something like 8th MS team in those times, with the concept of real robot being born.
The production still needed to distinguish the good from the bad, even with the ideologic-political conflict themed show that Gundam presented.
Even with the "good boy in the wrong side" thingy going on, you can actually see a "hero side" in there, wich is differenced specially by the astethical dimension: we have, in one hand, the Zakus, Magellas and other discused weapons, colored with militarized, routinaire and sometimes, even the "violent" pallettes, and their monstruos looks.
On the other hand, we have the Rx series, with the familiar-friendly humanoid look, and the colors of the french revolutionary flag, wich opposed the aspects that are shown by the (tyrant) Zeon, breaking it apart almost single-handed. I think that those old school concepts could be, with certain help of true fans and logic, actualized without losing the gundam's "magic" (maybe Wing could be thinked in that sense, but the BIG letdowns were the simple characters and mechas, making it a modernist and more digerible concept than the previous series)

[mcred23]

If you'll not their equipment loadouts, which could theoretically not be ALL they could have been kitted out with, you'll note that they have an extremely limited amount of armament with anywhere from 2 to 4 MGs and a pathetic number of unguided rockets. The prop driven Skyraiders of 'Nam had 15 external hard points, and this plane was operational from the 50s at least. But anyway, as I said, theoretically they could have had more armaments just we never saw them.

Whether it's an extremely limited amount of weapons or not is a matter of opinion. Having two machine guns and a number of unguided missiles or rockets (Basically the Fly Manta, one of the EFAF's most heavily used aircraft) is a pretty good weapon load out for weapons that are all stored internally (In the case of the Fly Manta). And besides, whether you think they are pathetic or not, those aircraft basically won the war on Earth, so obviously they were enough to do well.

There is likely a bit of difference between hitting a walking tower much taller than you than something less than half your height. From it's appearance, you have to wonder just how Zeon even managed to take as much territory as it did. Even if they were cheap to mass produce there's still the fact that Federation air superiority means a tank rush is unlikely to succeed. Has a Magella ever turned it's turret/cockpit like an ordinary tank?

Still, we never really have seen the Magella go up against a Type-61 or another tank. Yeah, a tank may be a lot smaller than a MS, but the Magella's gun is going to do some damage (Note that it is bigger than the standard MS' weapon, the 120mm) and I wonder if it's high turret would allow it to hit the likely weaker armor on the top of an enemy tank turret. Zeon took the territory it did thanks to MS, and we've never seen a Magella turn it's turret/cockpit AFAIK.

The only examples I can think of that aren't a bit daft are the Ra Cailum and Clop class ships in Char's Counterattack, which have been shown to have actually effective point defense weapons (well, they did have a bit of psycoframe help there, didn't they...)

The Clop's AA guns were also shown to be effective in F91, where they downed a few Crossbone MS fairly quickly (Even with their beam shields), so not everything was due to Newtype-related stuff.

[Cardi Doorl]

... the fascist look intentionally given to Zeon (At least in MSG 79, barely seen the other UC series)...

Have you, uh, seen the other UC series? If anything, the "fascist look" is more greatly exaggerated in most of the other UC productions.

[Cel Chad]

Yeah, but mostly read of them. Still, It's simple in its complexity.

[OrionsGambit]

The open bridge seems to stem from the fact that Minovsky particles really mess up long range visual sensors and other scanning devices to the point where the Mark I eyeball can be just as effective if not more so. Thus the more exposed bridge rather than a CIC like on the new Galactica.

If they can outfit mobile suits with cameras and the like to give the pilot a view of the battlefield without resorting to windows, then I'm quite sure they can do the same thing for a warship's bridge. Panoramic command bridge... now there's a thought.

Minovsky Interference effects cameras and such after a few kilometers. Mobile suits fight their targets at only a couple hundred meters IF that the vast majority of the time. A ship has to be dealing with targets tens if not hundreds of kilometers away. The open bridge style UC ships use makes far more sense given Minovsky warfare then a central CIC would however some ships in UC still used both a main upper command bridge and a CIC.

[mcred23]

A ship has to be dealing with targets tens if not hundreds of kilometers away.

You were right with "tens". AFAIK, ships, at least in the OYW, can begin to engage targets at roughly 30 km. That number comes from an old description of the Battle Of Loum, where the two sides opened up at about that range, and it sounds about right, since we never see battles occuring at overly huge ranges that look like hundreds of kilometers.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Minovsky Interference effects cameras and such after a few kilometers.

No more than it does the naked eye. Minovsky particles aren't kind to unshielded electronics (which is why we don't see guided missiles in the UC timeline), but I'm certain that a warship would be able to properly shield its equipment -- including any cameras it decided to use.

[amagee]

Whether it's an extremely limited amount of weapons or not is a matter of opinion. Having two machine guns and a number of unguided missiles or rockets (Basically the Fly Manta, one of the EFAF's most heavily used aircraft) is a pretty good weapon load out for weapons that are all stored internally (In the case of the Fly Manta). And besides, whether you think they are pathetic or not, those aircraft basically won the war on Earth, so obviously they were enough to do well.

Yeah, in 08th MS Team, the Jet Core Boosters may not be the greatest machines for air to air but a couple squadrons of them pretty much leveled the top of a mountain and single handedly chased off all MS and troops. They were impeccable fighter bombers.