MS IGLOO ship acceleration/maneuverability

[ironscythe]

Now, I'm sure it was probably just for the sake of storytelling and increasing the excitement level, but in numerous episodes (I think at least 2), ships like the Salamis class are seen zipping around like you would expect to see fighters doing. Now, I know full well that there's no friction in space, and that spacecraft do indeed move at tens of thousands of miles per hour, but there's still the matter of mass.

A Salamis-class ship is easily as big as a naval destroyer, so it should have some comparable mass as well. Again, even with the physics of deep space taken into consideration, force is still mass times acceleration (or the derivative of velocity if you want to be technical), so even if you placed maneuvering jets at the very front and very back of a ship that size, it would still be quite sluggish in turning.

Here's where some of you might go into how, if the center of mass was in the exact center of the ship, it would greatly improve the efficiency of maneuvering jets in turning the ship about that center of mass. Well, if you take a good look at a Salamis, you'll see that the engines and command section are closer to the stern. This insinuates that most of the ship's mass is located in the stern. So unless there's some invisible outrigger trailing behind the ship, studded with maneuvering jets, it's going to have a hard time doing what it did in IGLOO.

Next, there's the issue of linear acceleration. If I recall correctly, one scene in IGLOO depicts a Salamis (or two) changing direction and high-tailing it at full speed, with very little time taken accelerating. In this scene, there's also a (relatively) stationary viewpoint, so we see a very clear relative acceleration by the Salamis. Given the scale of the vessels in question, the rate of acceleration (not to mention the thrust-to-mass ratio of their engines) are nothing short of phenominal. We're talking several hundred (if not thousand) miles an hour over the course of a second or two. I'd imagine the crew of such a ship would be very uncomfortable, if not suffering from internal bleeding from the sudden acceleration (especially since these ships don't have any kind of simulated gravity).

...I bet this has already been discussed some time ago, but I would at least like to hear whatever was decided as the explanation. I dunno.

[Areku]

Those maneuvers would require the crew to "pull g's", likely in the hundreds. More than the sheer power that would be required from the thrusters, I think that is what makes those images disturbing. Internal bleeding? More like crew-paste.

[flamingtroll]

Next, there's the issue of linear acceleration. If I recall correctly, one scene in IGLOO depicts a Salamis (or two) changing direction and high-tailing it at full speed, with very little time taken accelerating. In this scene, there's also a (relatively) stationary viewpoint, so we see a very clear relative acceleration by the Salamis. Given the scale of the vessels in question, the rate of acceleration (not to mention the thrust-to-mass ratio of their engines) are nothing short of phenominal. We're talking several hundred (if not thousand) miles an hour over the course of a second or two. I'd imagine the crew of such a ship would be very uncomfortable, if not suffering from internal bleeding from the sudden acceleration (especially since these ships don't have any kind of simulated gravity).

What makes you think you are in a stationary view point though. Unless you have something large in the background, it would be pretty hard to tell what view point one is having. It would be perfectly fine if your point of view was near the velocity of the Salamis and it rotates it goes the other direction. You wouldn't need to do a few hundred miles an hour over a few seconds to do that. In fact, all "stationary" views in space will probably be at around escape velocity at least. I dont' exactly remember what scene you might be referring to, but overall my impression is that it doesn't look that bad, comparing to more questionable things through out Gundam. I would be more concern about the structure strength of the vessel to pull such rapid turns though. It would make the Salamis much sturdier than it looks in the anime.

[ironscythe]

What makes you think you are in a stationary view point though.

Gee, did you not read the "RELATIVELY" part of that? All motion is relative, so there is no actual, ultimate "stationary" in space. If something appears not to be moving IN RELATION to your own viewpoint, it is RELATIVELY stationary. Same inertial frame of reference. Like tossing a ball up in the air when riding in a car.

[latenlazy]

Well what if it's the camera itself which is moving so much, and not so much the ship itself? For example, what if we're watching it from a mobile suit's perspective. Certainly a mobile suit moving like that would be far more feasible than a ship of that size, and it would explain the dramatic movements?

[ironscythe]

Have you even watched MS IGLOO?

[flamingtroll]

What makes you think you are in a stationary view point though.

Gee, did you not read the "RELATIVELY" part of that? All motion is relative, so there is no actual, ultimate "stationary" in space. If something appears not to be moving IN RELATION to your own viewpoint, it is RELATIVELY stationary. Same inertial frame of reference. Like tossing a ball up in the air when riding in a car.

Given how big Salamis are seen on the screen, It doesn't seem like they are pulling the kind of speed you are talking about though. Which particular instance are you referring to?

Nor is the assumption that the camera stays "relatively stationary" toward the object always true either.

[J-Lead]

Well, one particular instance of this might be right before the Battle of Loum, where a duo of Salamis are repelled by a Musai. After the first one is destroyed, the second swerves quickly around the first one's spiraling wreckage and lets off a volley of missiles (The camerawork here is rather erratic, so it may be the culprit in this instance.) Afterward, it caught the recieving end of a Musai's mega carticle cannon blast, and, being lucky enough to survive, turns tail rather quickly and gets the hell out of there.

Although the part that caught my attention is that the during the second Salamis's efforts to escape, it seemed to decelerate it's forward motion without the use of thrusters at all, but even that's up for debate, I guess.

[Neue Ziel]

The movement of ships in IGLOO is the most realistic space combat seen in Gundam so far,even though its looks really overdone and fake at times if I was the skipper of a ship I would be jink'n and jukin' all over the place...but my crew would suffer...

[Wingnut]

The movement of ships in IGLOO is the most realistic space combat seen in Gundam so far,even though its looks really overdone and fake at times if I was the skipper of a ship I would be jink'n and jukin' all over the place...but my crew would suffer...

Then it's not very realistic at all then now is it?
Even the insane ship designers wouldn't build that kind of problem into their ship.

[Apache]

Well, one particular instance of this might be right before the Battle of Loum, where a duo of Salamis are repelled by a Musai. After the first one is destroyed, the second swerves quickly around the first one's spiraling wreckage and lets off a volley of missiles (The camerawork here is rather erratic, so it may be the culprit in this instance.) Afterward, it caught the recieving end of a Musai's mega carticle cannon blast, and, being lucky enough to survive, turns tail rather quickly and gets the hell out of there.

Although the part that caught my attention is that the during the second Salamis's efforts to escape, it seemed to decelerate it's forward motion without the use of thrusters at all, but even that's up for debate, I guess.

I remember that part, it does look as though it slows down and just flips around. I tried to look for it on youtube and this is the best I could find:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=197poiaas4U&feature=related

The first time I saw the episodes it dis look as if the ships fly around at un-realistic speeds but re watching that video it looks as if they are actually moving pretty slow compared to all the mobile suits and beams flying around them.

[bertle]

What makes you think you are in a stationary view point though.

Gee, did you not read the "RELATIVELY" part of that? All motion is relative, so there is no actual, ultimate "stationary" in space. If something appears not to be moving IN RELATION to your own viewpoint, it is RELATIVELY stationary. Same inertial frame of reference. Like tossing a ball up in the air when riding in a car.

Given how big Salamis are seen on the screen, It doesn't seem like they are pulling the kind of speed you are talking about though. Which particular instance are you referring to?

Nor is the assumption that the camera stays "relatively stationary" toward the object always true either.

Are you just defending that scene for the sake of it?

I agree totally with the op, it looks really bizarre. You can argue the toss all you like about maybe the camera made it look like it was going faster than it was but at the end of the day we all know that those ships were doing EVERYTHING to fast.

Everything seems ok by the time we get to the battle of Loam so it's a minor thing, but seriously stop looking for get out clauses for what is obviously a very dodgy example of ship physics.

[J-Lead]

To be honest, I don't necessarily disagree with the notion that a Salamis may be able to manuver like that, but I don't necessarily agree with it either. There are a lot of machines in the current military that are often underestimated by people who haven't seen them operate at their full capability. For example; my Military History teacher back in high school was formerly in the Army, and he's attested to seeing an M1 Abrams go so fast up a hill that it caught 2.5 seconds of airtime before it hit the ground, and I guarantee any instance of this in say, a movie, would catch a lot of crap from neigh-sayers claiming that an actual Abrams would be incapable of that.

Perhaps this is a similar case, in that what you saw before you is the Salamis operating at it's full capability. They certainly had the motivation to do so, especially when the surviving Salamis took THREE hits from a mega particle cannon and still refused to go out in a ball of fire. I'm sure the crew of that ship would rather suffer potentially fatal injuries than recieve the inevitable last deciding beam hit where it hurts. In other words, disregarding the safe limit of operation and perhaps suffering a few serious injuries on board would be a small price to pay in exchange for a chance keep most of the crew alive at least. Of course, I don't recall any instances of a Salamis doing this in any other series, hence why I don't necessarily agree with it either. (Although there is another similar instance in Z Gundam A New Translation: "Lovers." During the scene where the Argama retrieves the Mk II from Earth, it turns about jarringly quickly and accellerates in similar fashion.)

But you can argue for or against it; the fact remains that in MS IgLoo, Salamis Class Ships have the capability to accelerate and manuver like that, and debating it isn't going to change it any. Besides, after rewatching the shot of the first Salamis biting it and the second counterattacking numberous times, I can say that I saw some pretty frantic camera work.

[Lans]

But you can argue for or against it; the fact remains that in MS IgLoo, Salamis Class Ships have the capability to accelerate and manuver like that, and debating it isn't going to change it any. Besides, after rewatching the shot of the first Salamis biting it and the second counterattacking numberous times, I can say that I saw some pretty frantic camera work.

And it's a official and a canon, at least for myself. The only problem is there are a huge performance gap between this Igloo Salamis and Salamis from the older tv animation. The animation in the MSG, Gundam Z, 0083 already portrayed Salamis Class or any other space vessel to be a incapable of quick reaction, very slow to change course, and somewhat un-maneuverable at all. On the other hand this Igloo Salamis, really fast and agile.

[Albireo_818]

Yet another of the animation/plot inconsistencies associated with the Gundam franchise... Probably no explanation produced will satisfy anyone.

[flamingtroll]

Are you just defending that scene for the sake of it?

I agree totally with the op, it looks really bizarre. You can argue the toss all you like about maybe the camera made it look like it was going faster than it was but at the end of the day we all know that those ships were doing EVERYTHING to fast.

Everything seems ok by the time we get to the battle of Loam so it's a minor thing, but seriously stop looking for get out clauses for what is obviously a very dodgy example of ship physics.

It's more like I don't remember any specific instance that well and as far as I can remembered, most Salamis scenes are close up shots. I did end up re-watching that scene in question though. My estimate of that scene based on the length of the ship is that it was accelerating at about 10-15G in that quick burst. Yea it is unusually fast, but probably not to the point that it will kill everyone inside, and not horribly unsightly if we think of it as "emergency maneuver" . It is more believable to me than Salamis launching into space just by attaching a few rockets at the back.

[neolordmaxwell]

Are you just defending that scene for the sake of it?

I agree totally with the op, it looks really bizarre. You can argue the toss all you like about maybe the camera made it look like it was going faster than it was but at the end of the day we all know that those ships were doing EVERYTHING to fast.

Everything seems ok by the time we get to the battle of Loam so it's a minor thing, but seriously stop looking for get out clauses for what is obviously a very dodgy example of ship physics.

It's more like I don't remember any specific instance that well and as far as I can remembered, most Salamis scenes are close up shots. I did end up re-watching that scene in question though. My estimate of that scene based on the length of the ship is that it was accelerating at about 10-15G in that quick burst. Yea it is unusually fast, but probably not to the point that it will kill everyone inside, and not horribly unsightly if we think of it as "emergency maneuver" . It is more believable to me than Salamis launching into space just by attaching a few rockets at the back.

Most people pass out at the 4 g-mark. 8 G's can be fatal for some, and even record holders black out at around that point. 15 Gs is nearly double that, and would, I assure you, be fatal.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

How many Gs you can sustain without blackout/injury depends a lot on how long you have to sustain them, and in which direction they're going. You can sustain a lot more force from head to toe and front to back than you can the other way around. You can deal with very large forces fairly well if it's for a brief period of time, as well.

IIRC, the most a fighter pilot is really expected to be able to withstand during combat maneuvers is around nine Gs for a handful of seconds. 15 would be unpleasant in the extreme, but not fatal if it didn't last for long, though I think you can expect a fair number of crew to pass out if you kicked a 15 g acceleration. 8 gs would only be fatal to someone who was physically unhealthy (who probably wouldn't be on a warship anyway) or for an extended period of time. The world record holder for the most gs taken and survived is an Indy car driver; he did something like 200+ gs for a fraction of a second and lived through it. Broke every bone in his body and spent over a year recovering, sure, but lived.

[flamingtroll]

Most people pass out at the 4 g-mark. 8 G's can be fatal for some, and even record holders black out at around that point. 15 Gs is nearly double that, and would, I assure you, be fatal.

You know you can just look at wikipedia to see how wrong you are. A good number of rollercoasters can achieve over 4Gs

[yukikaze]

i was always a little annoyed my MS igloo. it looks great, and has amazing space battles that remind me of the battle of jutland, yet they went a little to far.

i just rewatched most of it at sakuracon, and i really started to see the unrealistic parts. they animators went overboard with the CGI, making everthing in that series ripping around like crazy. dodging beam rifle shots and jumping through the air wasnt exactly something first generation MS were very good at.

just look at the final episode with the Zudah, they looked more like Berga Giros then competition for the zaku.

as for the ships, manuvering like that looks cool, but will probobly cause serious harm to anyone on board. i beleive 9g's is around the max of what fighter pilots do "comfortably". 15 g's is black-out to death range (depending on the health of the individual). at 20g's (V2) you will probobly die.