Yep, look at the shouts of surprise from things like The 08th MS Team and 0083...
"They've got beam weaponry!!!"
"Those human-types are using beam weaponry!!"
"Those were beam cannons!!"
...just from seeing the blast go by them, lol.
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"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet
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Exactly what I was talking about then when the battle kicks off its about whos the better pilot...HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:Yep, look at the shouts of surprise from things like The 08th MS Team and 0083...
"They've got beam weaponry!!!"
"Those human-types are using beam weaponry!!"
"Those were beam cannons!!"
...just from seeing the blast go by them, lol.
Heres a question for the Gundamphiles>
Are beam weapons FTL?
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Supposingly the Space Types have to use machine guns/machine rifles near or inside a Colony, because a stray shot from beam weaponry could seriously damage the cylinder's hull.
Oh, and, the beam spray gun is short range relative to the beam rifle. As it is, the BsG is good within Zaku's normal range, i.e. melee up to bazooka range (Magella Top cannon is suppose to be an artillery/sniping weapon).
The BsG is said to be more powerful at close range than the beam rifle, because the M-particles are not as focused, thus dealing wider-spread damage to the enemy (don't quote me on this though )
In essence, they're more like charged plasma.
GMs and Dom/Rick Doms explode at about the same rate too, so does that mean Zakus and Doms are on even ground as well?Neue Ziel wrote:All these specs some of you guys spit out dont really mean a thing to me, from watching the shows it seems that the Zaku II and GM are on even ground they both explode at the same rate...RGM-79 GM wrote: more manuverable, has beam weapons, and has better sensors. So why do you say they are on equal ground?
A beam rifle with short range seems to me like something thats bark is worse that its bite.Why would you call it a propganda piece? Apart from the range and power it is like other beam weapons. It just seems like a cheaper easier to make beam weapon to me. Not like something used for propoganda.
Zeon pilot>"OMG beam rifles oh sh** get back in the car!"
>:3
Oh, and, the beam spray gun is short range relative to the beam rifle. As it is, the BsG is good within Zaku's normal range, i.e. melee up to bazooka range (Magella Top cannon is suppose to be an artillery/sniping weapon).
The BsG is said to be more powerful at close range than the beam rifle, because the M-particles are not as focused, thus dealing wider-spread damage to the enemy (don't quote me on this though )
No. They are accelerated M-particles that are pushed out along the weapon's barrel (lined with I-field to channel the particle).Neue Ziel wrote:Heres a question for the Gundamphiles>
Are beam weapons FTL?
In essence, they're more like charged plasma.
"So...what does the Uncertainty Principle really mean?"
"Sorry, I'm not sure."
"Sorry, I'm not sure."
Thats not true,Doms own GMs on earth and in space the Dom has that biggie bazook GM must be out his mind taking on Dom (thats 1 crazah Moba Suut right thur!)Oruma wrote: GMs and Dom/Rick Doms explode at about the same rate too, so does that mean Zakus and Doms are on even ground as well?
Every weapon used by mobiles suits are designed for mile+ engangements but those kinds of fights are hard to make look kewl,so they throw in M-Interference. Anyways a burst of Zak Gat fire drops a Jim a shot from a "BsG" drops a Zak,thus my thesis of GM=ZakOh, and, the beam spray gun is short range relative to the beam rifle. As it is, the BsG is good within Zaku's normal range, i.e. melee up to bazooka range (Magella Top cannon is suppose to be an artillery/sniping weapon).
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Nope. Technologically and performance wise the GMs were ahead of any existing Zak when they first came out. Zeon may have upgraded their suits to catch up, but the fact remains that GMs had the initial advantage in every area but numbers.Neue Ziel wrote:Every weapon used by mobiles suits are designed for mile+ engangements but those kinds of fights are hard to make look kewl,so they throw in M-Interference. Anyways a burst of Zak Gat fire drops a Jim a shot from a "BsG" drops a Zak,thus my thesis of GM=Zak
There is also the fact that the Zaku had no method of protection against the GM's gun, whereas the GM has protection from the Zaku's. So, the Zaku II doesn't equal the GM right there in your example.
HellCat wrote:They decided against that because most Gundam fans already have something up their butt.ShadowCell wrote:I'm skipping this one if it's in suppository form, though. Like, I like Gundam, but not that friggin' much.
If you are speaking of the GMs shield then:CHASER wrote:There is also the fact that the Zaku had no method of protection against the GM's gun, whereas the GM has protection from the Zaku's. So, the Zaku II doesn't equal the GM right there in your example.
I don't fully understand the use of a shield on an already armored vehicle,I could see up-armoring(such as Gundam Alex) but the shield was designed to parry melee blows and stop arrows(modern sheilds are riot and CQB)
A 120mm can punch through a GM glacis,so is the sheild thicker than the armor of a GM or is made of a better armor?
also is the 'BsG' FTL!!!?
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It's a fair assumption from its use that the shield is thicker and/or denser to make it more resistant, because otherwise it would serve little use in close range against a heat hawk. I haven't paid much attention to the construction of UC shields, but from what I got the early ones like those on the GM are there to absorb damage rather than the body. Adding armour like the Alex has its own uses but drawbacks as well. It takes more material to cover the suit, it only gives cover in blocks (generally leaving joints exposed) and can add a lot of weight to the machine and slow it down.
Either way, the shield would be, or needs to be, tough enough to stop the Zaku's bullets, so it's more durable than the MS armour. You might end up tossing it because it took too much damage after a while but it will do its job.
I don't think the spray gun is faster than light, at their worst beam cannons on ships have at some point been mentioned to be traveling close to light speed (relating to some Newtype discovery thing). The animation doesn't make it look remotely as fast, but that's a completely different topic.
Either way, the shield would be, or needs to be, tough enough to stop the Zaku's bullets, so it's more durable than the MS armour. You might end up tossing it because it took too much damage after a while but it will do its job.
I don't think the spray gun is faster than light, at their worst beam cannons on ships have at some point been mentioned to be traveling close to light speed (relating to some Newtype discovery thing). The animation doesn't make it look remotely as fast, but that's a completely different topic.
HellCat wrote:They decided against that because most Gundam fans already have something up their butt.ShadowCell wrote:I'm skipping this one if it's in suppository form, though. Like, I like Gundam, but not that friggin' much.
Uparmoring a MS would free up both hands allowing for two beam guns!CHASER wrote:It's a fair assumption from its use that the shield is thicker and/or denser to make it more resistant, because otherwise it would serve little use in close range against a heat hawk. I haven't paid much attention to the construction of UC shields, but from what I got the early ones like those on the GM are there to absorb damage rather than the body. Adding armour like the Alex has its own uses but drawbacks as well. It takes more material to cover the suit, it only gives cover in blocks (generally leaving joints exposed) and can add a lot of weight to the machine and slow it down.
>that negates everything you just said~
Actually if the BsG is FTL or close enough if you aim at a Zak and fire you will hit it everytime....I don't think the spray gun is faster than light, at their worst beam cannons on ships have at some point been mentioned to be traveling close to light speed (relating to some Newtype discovery thing). The animation doesn't make it look remotely as fast, but that's a completely different topic.
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No, it doesn't. You clearly didn't read the very last part of the last sentence where he mentioned that heavier armor would slow a MS down. A unit thats harder to hit normally survives longer than a unit that can sit pretty and take more hits. Plus, there's always the chance that enemy bullets (especially from machineguns) will hit and ruin your weapon or some other exposed component. Dodging reduces that risk.Neue Ziel wrote:Uparmoring a MS would free up both hands allowing for two beam guns!CHASER wrote:It's a fair assumption from its use that the shield is thicker and/or denser to make it more resistant, because otherwise it would serve little use in close range against a heat hawk. I haven't paid much attention to the construction of UC shields, but from what I got the early ones like those on the GM are there to absorb damage rather than the body. Adding armour like the Alex has its own uses but drawbacks as well. It takes more material to cover the suit, it only gives cover in blocks (generally leaving joints exposed) and can add a lot of weight to the machine and slow it down.
>that negates everything you just said~
Another thing is, armor can't protect joints as much as you'd like because that would inhibit flexibility. If you'll notice even the bulkiest MS have thin, exposed joints. Having a shield allows you to cover those places without having to have a fancy system of movable plates.
Obviously you haven't payed attention to any of the discussions we've had on this before, but the GM is better than the Rick Dom in space combat. The Giant Bazooka may be powerful, but it only has ten shots and is easier to avoid than, say, machine gun fire.Neue Ziel wrote:Thats not true,Doms own GMs on earth and in space the Dom has that biggie bazook GM must be out his mind taking on Dom (thats 1 crazah Moba Suut right thur!)
Zeon really didn't upgrade their base MS-06F units, most of those remained the same, performance wise, even after the introduction of the GM. Zeon did introduce some newer model Zaku II's, such as the -06F2 and -06FZ, which did perform better, but still had their problems (The F2 still wasn't as good as the GM, although it was a more even match for it than the basic -06F).Recon 5 wrote:Nope. Technologically and performance wise the GMs were ahead of any existing Zak when they first came out. Zeon may have upgraded their suits to catch up, but the fact remains that GMs had the initial advantage in every area but numbers.Neue Ziel wrote:Every weapon used by mobiles suits are designed for mile+ engangements but those kinds of fights are hard to make look kewl,so they throw in M-Interference. Anyways a burst of Zak Gat fire drops a Jim a shot from a "BsG" drops a Zak,thus my thesis of GM=Zak
Yeah, that will get most MS killed. There is a reason why after the OYW there was a push to make MS with less and/or lighter armor that were more mobile with things like the moveable frame or ulta-light armor MS like the Jegan. You're looking at one of the few advantages having a heavily armored MS would have, compared to the far more pressing faults with such an idea (Particularly when beam weapons become a factor, rendering all of that armor useless).Neue Ziel wrote:Uparmoring a MS would free up both hands allowing for two beam guns!
>that negates everything you just said~
Neue Ziel wrote:A 120mm can punch through a GM glacis,so is the sheild thicker than the armor of a GM or is made of a better armor?
First off, what is "glacis"?
Second, as CHASER noted, the shield is almost certainly thicker or somehow stronger than the basic armor on a GM. The whole point of the original shield used by the GM and Gundam is to deal with fire from the weapon that (At the time) they were most likely to encounter; the 120mm machine gun used by Zaku II's. Against that weapon, the shield does quite well at stopping it's rounds.
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Die Anti-brutale Kraft: mcred23 (Call me 'red', not 'mcred')
I thought I answered the beam = FTL? question already. Oh well
(2)A shield is designed to withstand enemy fire without your MS being stunned, as in if it's being hit directly
(3)if a powerful attack arrives, e.g. a Giant Bazooka or a beam shot, the shield may be destroyed but can still block the initial attack.
(4)the shield can be used to carry extra equipments (not on top of your list but its auxilary function).
(5)if push comes to shove, the GM can ditch its shield and become more agile, especially if the shield is damaged and become dead weight. Can a Dom shred a layer of its heavy armor in case of emergency?
Oh, and the shield is definitely thicker than the GM's armor.
(1)Just because you have armor doesn't mean you want to use said armor, if you know what I mean.Neue Ziel wrote:If you are speaking of the GMs shield then:
I don't fully understand the use of a shield on an already armored vehicle,I could see up-armoring(such as Gundam Alex) but the shield was designed to parry melee blows and stop arrows(modern sheilds are riot and CQB)
A 120mm can punch through a GM glacis,so is the sheild thicker than the armor of a GM or is made of a better armor?
also is the 'BsG' FTL!!!?
(2)A shield is designed to withstand enemy fire without your MS being stunned, as in if it's being hit directly
(3)if a powerful attack arrives, e.g. a Giant Bazooka or a beam shot, the shield may be destroyed but can still block the initial attack.
(4)the shield can be used to carry extra equipments (not on top of your list but its auxilary function).
(5)if push comes to shove, the GM can ditch its shield and become more agile, especially if the shield is damaged and become dead weight. Can a Dom shred a layer of its heavy armor in case of emergency?
Oh, and the shield is definitely thicker than the GM's armor.
"So...what does the Uncertainty Principle really mean?"
"Sorry, I'm not sure."
"Sorry, I'm not sure."
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I believe so.domtropen wrote:The question is that can BSG punch through Zaku shield in one shot the same way beam rifle/MPG punch through Gundam shield [eg. the fight against Char's Z-gok at Jaburo]?
Oh, and on an other note, GM's shield is hand held meaning that the extra defense it provided can be rotated towards the enemy, concentrating armor to an area most exposed to weapons fire. Meanwhile Zaku's shield, while leaving the left hand free, requires the Zaku to rotate itself in order to utilize the limited defense the shoulder shield provides.
"So...what does the Uncertainty Principle really mean?"
"Sorry, I'm not sure."
"Sorry, I'm not sure."
Well I've counted the on screen deaths at A Boua Qu(not that on screen really matters for the overall numbers) and going by what I saw(and remebmer) the Feds mostly lost RB-79s and the Zeon mostly lost Rick-Doms. So I guess according to you they are equal right? It went in this order IIRC RB-79, MS-09R, MS-06, RGM-79, MS-14.Neue Ziel wrote:All these specs some of you guys spit out dont really mean a thing to me, from watching the shows it seems that the Zaku II and GM are on even ground they both explode at the same rate...
Even with short range though it can still destory them in one hit. It isn't like they fought from really far away anyway. Plus we don't even know what short range(meaning we don't know the range in km) for the BSG means. It might mean the same as a short range beamrifle(10km IIRC) but is most likely lower than that.
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Pilot skill and plot needs are two very important factors there, but pilot skill does not allow us to properly compare two suits because it has NOTHING to do with the effectiveness of a suit.Neue Ziel wrote:All these specs some of you guys spit out dont really mean a thing to me, from watching the shows it seems that the Zaku II and GM are on even ground they both explode at the same rate...
Plot needs, well, we prefer not to go there at all on mechatalk because its a one-size-fits-all explanation, the easy way out.
Specs are really the only objective way of comparing two suits although you are right about both being 'even'. They're both grunt suits so its natural that they explode all the time...
Actually for many of grunt MSs exploding on screen in the MSG trilogy that is not by heros' hand they are not often shown who or what hit them. Ship's cannon, missile or anti-MS small guns? Other MSs' guns?
I am not so sure BSG can punch through or waste Zaku shield by one shot though. Spreading the area of damage may not allow BSG to punch through the shield, but it may melt part of the shield's surface. As for the heavy body armor of Rickdom it is essential since Rickdom is anti-ship MS, and is likely to go through anti-MS gun barrage and complete its mission alive. It is good for GM that Zeon Musais do not have many small guns for anti-MS defense, since in Igloo [probably not a good example...] GM get killed quickly by Jotunheim's anti-MS guns [the shield get forced out of the hand by contiuous impact and then GM get shreaded].
I am not so sure BSG can punch through or waste Zaku shield by one shot though. Spreading the area of damage may not allow BSG to punch through the shield, but it may melt part of the shield's surface. As for the heavy body armor of Rickdom it is essential since Rickdom is anti-ship MS, and is likely to go through anti-MS gun barrage and complete its mission alive. It is good for GM that Zeon Musais do not have many small guns for anti-MS defense, since in Igloo [probably not a good example...] GM get killed quickly by Jotunheim's anti-MS guns [the shield get forced out of the hand by contiuous impact and then GM get shreaded].
Last edited by domtropen on Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.