OYW MS Technology?

[jamnewman0056]

I wonder if the GM sniper and GM sniper II were designed to counter and MS like the DOM and Gelgoog. The Gelgoog has a beam rifle much like a sniper rifle. A normal GM is good in a team but a team of well trained pilots in a team of Gelgoog s may have been more than a regular team of GM could handle. Perhaps the idea be hind the GM sniper is that it supple ments the needs of speed and stealth that were sorely lacking in the Guncannon and Guntank. by adding this specialized GM it increases the effectiveness of a MS team as seen in Gundam Lost war chronicles. It seemed as though the idea behind an MS team was to cover each others blind spots in combat. If you consider that Larry in LWC was the resident sniper and the whole team was experimental perhaps the idea for later teams was to have a dedicated person for shooting MS before they approached to battle field. Besides if you spot the MS before they reach you then you have the advantage of knowing where and when the enemy will reach you. With MS like the Gelgoog appearing with high powered beam weapons the need to spot them was more important.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I wonder if the GM sniper and GM sniper II were designed to counter and MS like the DOM and Gelgoog.

I don't think they were made specifically for fighting the 2, but given the high performance capabilities both MS have shown during their short introduction periods, it's no surprise that the Federation stepped up some GMs to be better than the normal.

The Gelgoog has a beam rifle much like a sniper rifle.

The reason for that is probably because of its sheer size. Remember that Zeon had only VERY recently perfected their own energy cap technology and more power was probably also put into the Gelgoog's beam rifle as well. Similar to how MS began, the prototype beam rifle's probably started off quite big before getting scaled down. A good example of this would be Gato's prototype beam rifle for his Gelgoog, which was quite large.

Though I doubt it was made to be a sniper weapon, though as shown with the Gelgoog Jager's beam machinegun, it probably just allows better accuracy overall but not for super-long range like an actual sniper rifle.

A normal GM is good in a team but a team of well trained pilots in a team of Gelgoog s may have been more than a regular team of GM could handle.

The problem there is that by the time the Gelgoog had started coming out, most of Zeon's decent pilots were already dead, leaving no one but barely graduated cadets and green pilots with little to no actual combat experience to pilot them while the Federation pilots had a lot of experience gained in a short time after the GM's completion; a lot of them because of surviving the Battle of Solomon while others have some even before than from fighting on Earth before going to space. Not to mention that it wasn't JUST a team of GMs, but also (usually) 2-3 Balls as well to provide mid to long-range support.

Perhaps the idea be hind the GM sniper is that it supple ments the needs of speed and stealth that were sorely lacking in the Guncannon and Guntank. By adding this specialized GM it increases the effectiveness of a MS team as seen in Gundam Lost war chronicles. It seemed as though the idea behind an MS team was to cover each others blind spots in combat. If you consider that Larry in LWC was the resident sniper and the whole team was experimental perhaps the idea for later teams was to have a dedicated person for shooting MS before they approached to battle field.

That's usually why teams were either composed of 3 general performance MS for equal balance OR they usually had various units for specific requirements. For example...

1 pilot could have a normal GM/GM Sniper/Sniper II for close-range combat (or long-range for Snipers if need be) and its overall high performance.

1 pilot could have a GM Cannon/Guncannon Kai/etc for mid-to-long-range combat and to provide extra firepower and cover for the other units.

...and the last pilot could have either or even be a Guntank.

This is actually what made the original trio of Mobile Suit Gundam so formidable. The Gundam would go in closer and take out frontmost enemies with the beam rifle, vulcans, Gundam Hammer, etc and be able to perform hand-to-hand combat with its beam saber. The Guncannon would be behind it and provide mid-range fire support and also be able to help cover the Gundam with its beam rifle and vulcans, but also be able to take more hits if they target it thanks to its armor. The Guntank would stay at the back and provide long-range, heavy firepower to cover both of them or to simply bombard the opponent to confuse them.

Of course, White Base provided cover for all 3 if need be.

Besides if you spot the MS before they reach you then you have the advantage of knowing where and when the enemy will reach you. With MS like the Gelgoog appearing with high powered beam weapons the need to spot them was more important.

This is true if you're using the shell-firing sniper rifle. If you're using the beam sniper rifle, the general downside of such a weapon comes into play; the fact that after the first shot, such a bright light could easily be spotted approaching, making it easier to dodge and if it is dodged, then the heat generated from such a shot could be tracked pretty easily and they'd be able to pinpoint your location easier. While they may not know your exact location, they'd have a general idea.

This was probably shown best in The 08th MS Team when Karen and Sanders were to told snipe the Zaku II Js from long-range. The J pilots didn't know exactly where they were, but they knew the direction the light of the beam cam from, allowing them to fire in their general direction (and coming damn close to hitting too).

[mcred23]

I wonder if the GM sniper and GM sniper II were designed to counter and MS like the DOM and Gelgoog.

They very likely weren't. The GM Sniper (Which is just a recolored GM [G], it barely counts as a sniper unit) and the GM Sniper Custom both were deployed before the Dom entered real use, never mind the Gelgoog. The GM Sniper II is just a further refined sniping MS, with high performance to boot, but nothing that really suggests it was ment to count some specific Zeon MS like the Dom or Gelgoog. To counter the Dom, the Federation developed the Armored GM, but very few of them got deployed, and the Federation never really developed anything to counter the Gelgoog (Since so few of them were built and they were deployed so late in the war).

A normal GM is good in a team but a team of well trained pilots in a team of Gelgoog s may have been more than a regular team of GM could handle.

The problem there is that by the time the Gelgoog had started coming out, most of Zeon's decent pilots were already dead, leaving no one but barely graduated cadets and green pilots with little to no actual combat experience to pilot them while the Federation pilots had a lot of experience gained in a short time after the GM's completion; a lot of them because of surviving the Battle of Solomon while others have some even before than from fighting on Earth before going to space. Not to mention that it wasn't JUST a team of GMs, but also (usually) 2-3 Balls as well to provide mid to long-range support.

There is also the huge factor in the fact that the GM's were equipped with the data from Amuro's learning computer. This helped give GM pilots an edge when they first went into battle and enchanced the experiance their pilots learned at places like Solomon.

That said, the Gelgoog is a better MS than the GM, but Zeon had so few Gelgoog's (Only 165 were built) and so many of those ended up in the hands of incompetent new pilots that whatever strengths the Gelgoog had over the GM were negated by the fact that the GM pilots were so much better, either due to their own experiance or the learning computer data giving their rookies some help in what they had to do.

Perhaps the idea be hind the GM sniper is that it supple ments the needs of speed and stealth that were sorely lacking in the Guncannon and Guntank.

I think you're trying to look for some connection that isn't there, as those three units are built for different purposes, the only thing they have in common is that they are ment to hit targets from decent ranges. The GM Sniper Custom (And later, the Sniper II) were designed for sniping, taking out targets well beyond the enemies effective range. The Guncannon was designed for mid-range fire support, and the Guntank was designed for long-range fire support. All are different combat missions, so I can't see how the GM Sniper is supplementing the Guncannon and/or Guntank when it's role in battle is considerably different.

It seemed as though the idea behind an MS team was to cover each others blind spots in combat.

Not grunt MS teams. The majority of normal combat units you see all use a single type of MS, such as a team using all GM Kais or Nemos or Jegans or RX-79's or whatever MS that faction is using. Granted, the team may use different weapons if they are available for the team to use, which would help cover weak spots to some extent, but usually normal teams members seem to use the same kind of MS.

Besides if you spot the MS before they reach you then you have the advantage of knowing where and when the enemy will reach you. With MS like the Gelgoog appearing with high powered beam weapons the need to spot them was more important.

Spotting the enemy before they spot you is pretty much an age old part of combat, whether it's in aircraft or on foot or in a mobile suit. However, as Gundam as shown us, long range MS combat is the exception rather than the norm (Keep in mind, I'm talking about UC). Most often, combat is a short-to-mid range affair, where long range support isn't that vital, and the ability to be agile and get around is (Which is why we have the Jegan).

[Terrace]

Of course, you have to remember that Amuro had been wreaking havoc on the Zeon forces before the GM even showed up. This further depleted the Zeon of skilled pilots by the time the GM was put into mass production.

[Ett]

I always wanted to see more of the Sniper Custom 2 in combat. Isn't it suppose to be the most powerful version of the GM series during OYW? The Scarlet team in 0080 was rubbish though, they could at least try to put up a good fight with the Kämpfer.

The White Diggo team was a different story when they fought the Gelgog and that mobile armor at the end of rise from the ashes. I know the former is just a plotline and the later you were the one controling the MS, but still an ace unit shouldn't be kill that easy nevermind the whole team.

[domtropen]

Well for good views on GM vs Zaku watch some Igloo A Boa Qu AMV's or episode 6 when they show Random Zaku's and etc. fight. The GM beats the Zaku in everything beside the choices in what Gun I should use today. I mean all Zeonic MS weapons could be used between any MS between 05-14 beside the beam rifle(Zaku I, Zaku II, Gouf, Dom or Rick Dom, and Gelgoog).

Rewatch Igloo 6 and it is mostly chaotic battle with multiple MSs destroying each other like Zaku II losing an arm to GM C, then proceeds to destroy a[nother?] GM C before getting stab in the back by another GM C, and so on, Or GM Cs and Aggos destroying each other. Hardly a good example on either MSs' abilities. There old 120 mm machinegun seems to have no trouble ripping apart GMs. I agree that beam saber is definitely much better than heat hawk though.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I always wanted to see more of the Sniper Custom 2 in combat. Isn't it suppose to be the most powerful version of the GM series during OYW? The Scarlet team in 0080 was rubbish though, they could at least try to put up a good fight with the Kämpfer.

The White Diggo team was a different story when they fought the Gelgog and that mobile armor at the end of rise from the ashes. I know the former is just a plotline and the later you were the one controling the MS, but still an ace unit shouldn't be kill that easy nevermind the whole team.

Yes, it is the most powerful at the time, but of course it was expensive and it was made in the last month of the war so similar to the Gelgoog, time just wasn't on their side (and cost by itself). And it's also not really that big a surprise how easily the Scarlet Team was wiped out. They were not only up against a virtually unknown MS that was much faster, more maneuverable, and more heavily armed than any of them, but there was also the fact that it had begun attacking pretty much immediately after they left the ship, so they had little-to-no reaction time to fight back before they got shot down.

[mcred23]

And it's also not really that big a surprise how easily the Scarlet Team was wiped out. They were not only up against a virtually unknown MS that was much faster, more maneuverable, and more heavily armed than any of them, but there was also the fact that it had begun attacking pretty much immediately after they left the ship, so they had little-to-no reaction time to fight back before they got shot down.

You also have the odd fact that, while they were using GM Sniper II's, they all were armed with 90mm machine guns, which aren't known for being all that accurate over long ranges. Plus, the Scarlet Team was probably just as worried about not crashing into a hospital or something like. Needless to say, they got dumped off the Grey Phantom into one of the worst situations possible for a combat unit.

Of course, you have to remember that Amuro had been wreaking havoc on the Zeon forces before the GM even showed up. This further depleted the Zeon of skilled pilots by the time the GM was put into mass production.

Yeah, although even with Amuro doing his thing, I think the majority of Zeon's better trained or more experiance pilots simply got killed by regular Federation units. Amuro did take down more than his share of well known Zeon pilots (The Black Tri-Stars, Ramba Ral, and if we go simply by fame, Garma), but it's not like he went around killing Zeon aces.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I'd assume they were armed with more short-range weapons simply because they were inside a colony and we all know how much damage beam weapons can do to one; whether it be a regular beam rifle or the much stronger and focused beam sniper rifle. Though, yeah, you'd think at least 1 of them would be armed with a shell-firing sniper rifle at least.

And, as said, Amuro did take out a few aces or big names, but not SO many all by himself since various remaining aces were either all over the world or somewhere in different sections of Solomon and/or A Baoa Qu than White Base was. (Like Johnny Ridden, Anavel Gato, and possibly Shin Matsunaga.)

[jamnewman0056]

If we are talking performance we only need to check out mahq.
And here they are:
GM(regular)
Model number: RGM-79
Code name: GM

Dimensions: overall height 18.5 meters; head height 18.0 meters
Weight: empty 41.2 metric tons; max gross 58.8 metric tons
Armor materials: titanium alloy
Powerplant:1250 kW
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 2 x 24000 kg, 4 x 1870 kg
Performance: maximum thruster acceleration 0.94 G; 180-degree turn time 1.6 seconds; maximum ground running speed 102 km/h
Equipment and design features: sensors, range 6000 meters
Fixed armaments: 2 x 60mm vulcan gun, fire-linked, mounted in head; beam saber, power rated at 0.38 MW,
while the GM Sniper II rating is :

Model number: RGM-79SP
Code name: GM Sniper II
Unit type: mass production general purpose mobile suit

Dimensions: overall height 18.5 meters; head height 18.0 meters
Weight: empty 45.0 metric tons; max gross 61.0 metric tons
Armor materials: titanium/ceramic composite
1390 kW
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 2 x 21000 kg, 4 x 15000 kg; vernier thrusters/apogee motors: 8
Performance: maximum thruster acceleration 1.18 G; 180-degree turn time 1.3 seconds; maximum ground running speed 120 km/h
Equipment and design features: sensors with additional targeting sensors in visor, range 8700 meters
Fixed armaments: 2 x beam saber, powered by rechargeable energy cap, stored in recharge racks on rear waist armor, hand-carried in use
Optional fixed armaments: 2-barrel vulcan pod, mounted on head; shield,

If you look carefully at these values in almost every way the GM sniper II is superior in sensor range and optional armaments used. The potential of the unit could be seen if other MS teams had used this unit. Perhaps even the famous White Base crew or even the Albion(Gundam 0083).

[mcred23]

Uh... we already knew that, the GM Sniper II was probably the most powerful GM of the OYW. There is no need to repost the stats...

The potential of the unit could be seen if other MS teams had used this unit.

It was issued to other units, but very few GM Sniper II's were built before the OYW, as they weren't developed until later and they were also very expensive.

Perhaps even the famous White Base crew or even the Albion(Gundam 0083).

...Why? White Base did just fine without a sniper MS, and by the time of 0083, there are more powerful, more advanced GM's out there (Notable, the GM Custom).

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Yes, as said, it is the most powerful of the GM variants during the OYW period. But that power and extra high performance in each area comes at a much higher cost; almost as much a, if not more than, the Gundam itself. Couple that with the tight deadline of rollout and the end of the war, it's not surprising it wasn't seen all that often.

Also because the units you mentioned had no real NEED for them. The White Base already had the Gundam, 2 Guncannons (or 1 Guncannon and 1 Guntank in the series), and 2 G-Fighters (Core Boosters in the movies) and pilots highly experienced in using them at that point. And the Albion already had the GP01/GP01Fb, 3 GM Customs (which are also probably just as costly as a GM Sniper II), and 2 GM Cannon IIs. Already more than enough of a force there for 1 ship, so no real need for GM Sniper IIs.

I guess it's also because the White Base and the Albion weren't really seen as "high priority" ships. (White Base for most of the time and Albion pretty much the WHOLE time) And we know full well that the Federation doesn't really bother trying to support such ships a lot of the time.

[jamnewman0056]

Yeah that makes sense. I suppose the GM Sniper II is more of a special forces suit than a regular grunt. Did they still use the GM Sniper II rifle among the regular GM forces in missions which involved absolute secrecy?

[mcred23]

Yeah that makes sense. I suppose the GM Sniper II is more of a special forces suit than a regular grunt.

Pretty much, yeah. The Federation's two real sniper MS, the Sniper II and Sniper Custom, were more or less high performance units that just happened to be set up for sniping.

Did they still use the GM Sniper II rifle among the regular GM forces in missions which involved absolute secrecy?

Maybe, although it probably wouldn't be as effective when used by a non-sniper MS (Of course, there probably weren't all that many reasons for a normal GM to use one in the first place, let alone secret missions).

[DeltasTaii]

It's hard to have a secret mission in an MS. The closest things I can think of we've ever seen are Char's Acguy team in Jaburo, the hiding Hizacks in Zeta, and the AssH spec-ops team that attacks Lacus in Destiny. 3 for nearly 30 years.

The key here, is that there's very little actual sniping use of a so-called sniper unit. Sure, we see a Sniper II in MS Era and the 08th bust out the foliage netting and hunker into firing positions, but generally it's more of a marksman/long range support role, where yeah, the enemy knows you're there, but chances are he won't have the effective range to take you out. The actual surprise shots tend to put the emphasis on one-shot one-kill ability, over supremely ridiculous ranges and non-detection. (the hiding Hizacks, for example, engage well within the Zeta's beam rifle range).

[toysdream]

Sure, we see a Sniper II in MS Era and the 08th bust out the foliage netting and hunker into firing positions, but generally it's more of a marksman/long range support role, where yeah, the enemy knows you're there, but chances are he won't have the effective range to take you out.

Can't say whether that applies to the GM Sniper II, whose intended function has never been all that clear, but it's certainly not true of the original GM Sniper Custom.

According to the MSV profiles, the Sniper Custom was actually more of a general-purpose high-performance machine that could be configured for a variety of demanding missions. The "interceptor" or "guard" version was used to escort fleets and vulnerable supply ships; the "sniper" version was used just as the name suggests, for tasks like ambushing enemy forces in shoal zones and conducting guerilla attacks on Zeon factory colonies.

As for long-range support in mass battles, that's what the Guncannon and GM Cannon series are for.

-- Mark

[DeltasTaii]

I suppose I was thinking more in terms of the "sniper" equipment units we actually see in animated and illustrated fiction-Dynames (barring its ground to orbit giant gun of doom, and I'd much rather ignore it ), the very occasional GINN, the Buster's combined rifle, M1A Astray, the more common uses of the 180mm cannon, and the [G] snipers, which filled neither a sniper or marksman role.

The way the Sniper Custom and Sniper II are employed proves that there's not really such a thing as a practical dedicated sniper MS, just a sensor package and a rifle anyways, unless we want to count the Zaku I Sniper, which is a circumstance of a horribly inappropriate base unit.

[Neue Ziel]

The Zak2 and Jim are on even-ground,beam weapons(in this case) are more of a propaganda piece that a good weapon,the beam pistol the GM uses is short-ranged that I think was ideal for what the federation expected the final battles of the War to be. Ground Based GMs use cheaper MGs I dont think I've seen a space based GM using MGs

Also can 120mm rounds from a Zak penetrate the glacis of a GM? and how does the shield of a GM compare to the glacis of a GM?

[bluemax151]

Scarlett team's loss in their GM Sniper IIs in 0080 is an extreme plot contrivance put there solely to develop the Kampfer and prove that it is a superior MS. That way when it finally confronts the Alex the viewer will be all "WOW, this Alex suit is totally awesome I need gunpla of it etc.." In universe the idea that the Scarlett team was rushed and unprepared to deal with the Kampfer makes sense if you totally disregard some of the ridiculous shots the Kampfer pulls off with ease.

Build wise unlike the GM Sniper custom that is custom configured to the pilot's/mission's needs the GM Sniper II is basically a super high performance GM with a longer sensor range, a camera guard and the ability to use either a shell firing or beam sniper rifle (something the standard GM has not been shown doing) not a sniper role specific MS per se. In fact in RFTA there is no sniper rifle beam or otherwise in the entire game. You must in fact sortie against the HLV base using the standard bazooka or 100mm until you unlock the cheats by beating the game once.

[Neue Ziel]

In fact in RFTA there is no sniper rifle beam or otherwise in the entire game. You must in fact sortie against the HLV base using the standard bazooka or 100mm until you unlock the cheats by beating the game once.

Hmmm I remeber that mission White Dingo gets the shiney new MS' but I recall you get beam rifle during that mission
Proto Beam Rifle>Gaw Mission>unlocked

Beam Spray Gun>unlocked(not in game)

Beam Rifle>Final Mission(HLV and Gelgoog and Rhino)>unlocked

I love that game like on the mission were you have the option of fighting the Zeon Ace's Gouf or you can let him retreat.....