Mobile trace and other means of running the MS

[Den]

i was rewatching g gundam lately and what caught my attention was the mobile trace sytem which the pilot uses to control the gundam. And in our world i think there is a system like that but is more crude, so what i'm getting at here is that, would it be more practical if the MS uses that type of controls? because there is a glove that allows us human to move a robotic hand, but only slowly unlike the g gundam speed and reflexes

[ScornMandark]

They are a little further along than just a glove.

However, your question is whether it is practical for a giant robot? The question needs to be prefaced by how big of a robot is still practical to make in a humanoid form (since the mobile trace system mimics a human). Numerous scientists and basic physics tells us that at a certain point, the feet are too small to support the weight/square meter of said 60 ton walking hunk of metal on current roadways and such. The idea of a giant robot is not out, just one with normal human proportions.

So, if we lose human proportions, is the human tracking system still the best to use for motion control? I think by that point a computer system would be better equipped to handle large motion control (see Honda's Asimo, etc) on a large, non-human scale. However, intelligent small motion and precision control is still hard to do quickly and responsively.

So, full body tracking might not work due to the loss of human proportions, but pure computer control would be difficult to control and manipulate fine objects. What to do?

Perhaps a hybrid control system? Not a full body tracking suit, but not purely computer controlled. Joysticks and foot pedals for large motion, tracking manipulators for detailed work; see Patlabor for a really good examply of this. Standard actions (drawing weapons, walking, running, firing weapons) are controlled by joysticks and pedals, but high precision manipulation (grabbing and holding things in the hands that the program doesn't have a standard for) are handled by tracking gloves that the operator puts on in such a situation, and takes off again once done.

This wouldn't affect combat capabilities much, since in combat you wouldn't be slowing down to manipulate fine objects carefully so you don't need to deal with the tracking gloves. Once out of combat, you can put on said gloves to pick up things. And, if attacked during fine object manipulation, the gloves can still pick up weapons and use them, albeit not using computer controlled aiming and targeting.

[Den]

hahah yeah forgot about that one, in order for the feet to support the body weight, it should be large enough.... so maybe, a leg like the reversed jointed leg in armored core would be better? but wouldnt a glove like control, like the one for daimos, be better to use for melee combat? for exmple, if you are using a pre programmed OS into the MS to use the beam saber, it could only do those set of moves like in a fighting game, but if you use the trace system for the hand only, it would be better because you can adapt right? or is there any loopholes? hehehe just specualting though

[CYNICISM AT IT'S BEST]

one thing though, about the roadways and such (I feel bad for the poor saps whp have to come in behind every in city gundam fight) is that in every scene I've ever watched where the mechs fight on on concrete or asphalt, except for the really thick stuff, the roads always get torn up even just from the units stepping around. totally off subject i know but it seemed pertinent

[Den]

it may be due to the amount of force the MS exerts on the ground when they land... but it could also be due to their weight when they move and put down their feet. just think of it this way, when a road is always used by trucks and other heavy vehicle, the road would crack ang give way to potholes in time, now imagine a hundred ton or more machine stepping on a road that is not meant for that kind of machinery would eventually get destroyed. i hope this helps answer your question heheeh

[Recon 5]

Well, most Gundams don't even exceed 20 or 30 tons, so I don't think that road support is a problem. In fact, there are commercial vehicles much heavier than any Gundam which can use the roads safely. If you've seen the American mega- movers, we're talking about a couple of thousand tons going on the roadways (like an entire church building ) so even a Gundam which did manage to reach the 100 ton mark would not sink as far into the ground as animation depicts.

[ScornMandark]

The roadways are designed to support a great deal of weight, and they could probably support the distributed weight of a standard GM (~40 metric tons empty, 58 metric tons at full loadout; Most UC mecha get heavier). However, the mechs would still punch holes in the ground. You have to keep in mind that on mega movers and such the weight is distributed between anywhere from 18 to 40 (or more!) pliable rubber tires. When a mecha steps on the ground, the weight is focused on a (relatively) smallish point of very hard metal. Hence why even just walking normally, the ground gets torn up; let alone when there's combat maneuvers.

[thesilentreviewer]

How do you handle flight control by mobile trace? O.o

[ScornMandark]

Slightly off topic, but a further look at why big robots shouldn't be normally shaped like a human. I'll use myself compared to a truck to a GM (sounds about right :p) for comparison.

Myself
Head Height 1.8 m
Mass 107 kg
Density .001 kg/cm^3 (roughly water)

Volume = mass/density = 107000 cm^3 = .107 m^3
Area ~= Volume/height = .05944 m^2
Pressure = mass/area = 1800 kg/m^2

That seems like a lot, but since the total surface area in contact with the ground is a twentieth of a square meter, it's about right.


Looking at a standard semi-truck, the common max Gross Vehicle weight (barring exceptions) in the US is currently 80,000 lbs = 40 tons = 36.28 tonnes, distributed across 18 tires. Each tire has a contact patch of about .5 ft^2, which totals 9 ft^2 = .8361 m^2.

Truck
Mass 36280 kg
Area .8361 m^2
Pressure 43391 kg/m^2


Now, a GM's armor is a titanium alloy, which has a density of about .004 kg/cm^3. It has a high tensile steel frame, which has a density of about .0078 kg/cm^3. Assuming (generously) that half the mass is armor, we get an average density of .0059 kg/cm^3.

GM
Head Height 18.0 m
Mass 41200 kg
Density .0059 kg/cm^3 (mix of Ti Alloy and HSLA Steel)

Volume = mass/density = 6983051 cm^3 = 6.983 m^3
Area ~= Volume/height = .3879 m^2
Pressure = 106200 kg/m^2


that's over 2 twice the pressure on the road surface of a truck, and nearly 60 times the pressure compared to a normal human. And that's without anything like weapons, shields, fuel, ammo, or anything. Full load pressure is 58.8 tonnes/.3879 m^2 = 151585.5 kg/m^2.

EDIT: And that's just standing still, with both feet firmly planted on the ground. When running - hell, even walking - that pressure number goes up rather significantly.

It's like stomping on stilts. Thin, needly stilts made of Titanium alloy and High tensile steel.

Hence why a short, squat mech, with really big feet would be the only way to support this kind of mass on our current roadway system.

[Recon 5]

With that kind of reasoning, a mech trying to use its thrusters would literally blow the tarmac out from under it... I can imagine a real- life Dom stripping the road away as it hovers.

[Hiryu02]

Something the size of a MS would likely be impossible to control in the mobile trace method. For a MUCH more realistic and thought-out treatment of this, check out the Landmates from Masamune Shirow's Appleseed.

I'm in agreement with Shirow as to the ideal size of a humanoid mecha being not too much larger than 8-10 feet tall. Something the size of an MS would need incredibly light and strong materials to prevent it from literally crushing itself under it's own weight.

[frezik]

Besides the weight issue, keep in mind that G Gundam's primary mobile suits were designed specifically for one-on-one combat. No need for tracking multiple targets beyond visual range, which requires a lot of computer control. More fine-grained control over the mech's movements make sense in such a situation.

[Recon 5]

Something the size of an MS would need incredibly light and strong materials to prevent it from literally crushing itself under it's own weight.

While I personally agree on Landmeits being the most realistic mecha so far, I have to say that when we find Lunar Titanium then we'll be able to make MS too. Simply put, any mech that makes it past the prototype stage only does so after its prototypes stop collapsing on themselves so the point is moot once you see something mass- produced.

As for the Mobile Trace System, I can't say much against the overall concept except for the fact that humans don't have all the extra equipment that MS do, so firing guns and jets and staying balanced in the air may take some getting used to. However, practice makes perfect as they say.

Any other objections I have against the MT System are centered on the plausibility of recording, sending and receiving movement data using such a setup, especially stuff like emotions and spirit energy. However, once these difficulties are resolved the MT System is actually a pretty good choice for an MS.

[Den]

as for the use of the trace system to fly, we can only speculate how they control it, because most of the G gundam technology is still beyond our range of science hahaha anyway the only thing that comes to my mind about this is that i notice some transmitter lokking things located on the shoulder, and the down the spine, and as far as i know, to send messages to our body, the brain uses small electrical impulses to relay messages, so my conclusion is that the pilots thinks of flying and using the thrusters to hover, then the transmitter receives the electrical charges and send it into the MS to make it fly. that's just me. And about the MT being made for one on one, hmm i dont entirely agree with that because if the MT has been upgraded lets say to have the warning device in our jet fighters now, we can know where the enemies, missiles and etc, coming from then act accordingly.

[Sanjiro]

A little bit off topic, but how the hell does a Gundam Fighter deal with getting knocked down? Trying to get up in a Gundam thats also trying to get up..would seem a bit awkward to say the least, also, are things like running and walking computer controlled? Unless the bottom of the cockpit is like a treadmill, I don't see how else it could be..Most likely, I'm probably overlooking something huge though.

[infernoe99]

once we get to that point that we make them in mass production well have one huge war with everybody itll be like the next arms race well be fighting for matirials and making beams and stuff first

[Den]

hmmm maybe the part of the gundam cockpit is rotates? so when the gundam is lying down, the cockpit rotates to makes the pilot lie in the same position as the gundam.. it's not an official explanations rally, but its the only logical explanation that comes to my mind.. hehehe any other people there might also have their own explanation and i am hopping i could read theirs too hehe