Phase Shift Armor and Max Impact Tolerance.

[minovskycore_0180er]

The question is in reference to the GAT-X307 Raider Gundam and the ZGMF-X10A Freedom Gundam and the ZGMF-X55S Impulse Gundam. In the battle at both Orb, the L-4 Mendell Colony and Operation Angeldown. I saw three things. The first instant is during the Battle of Orb. Athrun was in Justice atop the Fatum-00 Pack. The screen brought four zooms on the panoramic cockpit of the X09A.Three "OBJECTS" ( the # Trans Phase Gundam and the X10A Freedom. When performing a HiMAT maneuver the X10A was hit in chest cockpit armor of it's structure. The second was when the Freedom suffered heavy damage from the Raiders Mjoliner hammer. I understand that stuctural damage in the second case would be more relevant given the Wingbinders and especially the head of the Freedom are more seceptable to discombobulation and splintering. The head is just like a human head. With enough force you can knock it clean off a body and Wingbinders can tolerate so many p.s.i. of pressure before their structures buckle, warp and breeak. And in the third case the Impulse rupturing the Freedom dueterium reactor causing to go nova which also has understandable reasons. A sword penetrating straight through the torso area of a MS where the power supply is usually located is a valid cause for the destruction of a MS. But taking a weapon like the Panzer Eisien rocket anchor or even the Mjoliner Hammer, how much force would be need to cause a the Freedom's chest armor to cave in killling the pilot (please forgive question Kira!).

[Homeless]

Given that we have no hard numbers of any of the revelant data, is there really any way to reasonably determine this?

Also, Kira shut off Freedom's nuclear reactor; it didn't explode.

[minovskycore_0180er]

Then what do you call the blast that happened after the screenshot when you saw the Impulses sword penetrate the Freedom's torso. Not to mention the bright blue explosion behind the protrusion of the sword at the rear torso armor. The blast had the characteristics of a Hydrogen Bomb. I mean the rocks on shoreline literally reduced to dust because of the detonation's shock wave. If that isn't a nuke reactor rupturing and going nova, I don't know what else is or could be. Oh I took a look at Kira shutting down his reactor. He tried but fell un-conscience. His finger on the switches but they haven't been pressed. On the left side of the Emergency Power Shutoff panel there are two sets of instruments. The top says POWER OFF and there are two white outlined dials below if Kira would have hit the two switches that his finger where on those dials would have lit up. Below those dials are Primary Secondary and Auxillary Power dials. If a complete system shutdown would have occured those dials might have light up as well. But I think that Kira attempted to use that panel seconds before the Impulse's sword penatrated the torso. But the shockwave from the reactor must haverender Kira unconscience.

[azrael]

Then what do you call the blast that happened after the screenshot when you saw the Impulses sword penetrate the Freedom's torso.

That was Minerva's positron cannon hitting water (anti-matter + matter = boom).

[minovskycore_0180er]

When the Minerva's Tanhausser fired the resulting explosion was a big boom but not a nuclear explosion. Anti-matter and matter interactions don't result in a nuclear reaction that resemble the detenation of a Hydrogen Bomb. The Freedom's reactor is a powered by dueterium based fuels. A hydrogen bomb is fueled by dueterium heavy water as well. Hyper-dueterion is simply a more advanced form of fuel based on heavy water, but still hyper-dueterion is a re-enriched form of dueterium heavy water that can be used for fuels. Positron reaction are violent but do not react as a H-Bomb would. Watch Star Trek Generations. The destruction of the Enterprise-D is a more accurate visual of anti-matter/matter contact interactions.

[Recon 5]

Well, despite how much it seems to contradict the animation, the fact is that official canon states that Kira survived because he shut down his reactor. No matter how well you can argue that it makes no sense (note that I also think it doesn't fit the animation), you have to accept Kira's shutting down his reactor because thats the official given explanation.

Back to the subject of PS armor. I believe that the issue is not one of force (except for the Mjolnir, but more on that later) but of force per unit area. The beam sword that went right through the Freedom's torso had a sharp point, which would focus all of the force on a tiny area of the Freedom's torso. While the force of the impact may have been well within the capability of the PS armor to handle, the force per unit area would have been much, much greater. The same goes for the Panzer Eisen Anchor, although it could possibly be suggested that the PE was meant to combat normal armor as only the Gundams had PS armor at the time.

About the Mjolnir, it is designed to be unbelievably dense and this would exponentially increase the amount of force it exerts upon impact, to a point where it is more than enough to overwhelm PS armor.

Finally, it might be possible that the effectiveness of PS armor on a certain area is somewhat dependent on the thickness of the armor. With this in mind, the head of a PS armored MS would obviously be more fragile because of the concentration of electronics therein.

[azrael]

I'm not sure citing another science fiction show like Star Trek is fairly appropriate....

Anyways...one thing that occured to me about the Mjoinir is that perhaps the stress on the head was more than the neck joint could take. But it's been years since I watched that episode so I don't remember how it was animated. But the joints aren't exactly armored so it's possible that the neck just snapped at the force exerted by the hammer. It is a rocket propelled hammer, IIRC.

[Dark Duel]

Actually, having just recently watched that ep, I can tell you that about half the head had just been shot off by (I forget who) when the Mjolnir lopped off the rest.
Why's this matter? Because the PS Armor on the remaining head part was automatically disengaged for some reason.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

If the joints of the MS aren't protected by PS armor then that may be why the Freedom's head came off?

[Wingnut]

If the joints of the MS aren't protected by PS armor then that may be why the Freedom's head came off?

Read what Dark Duel just said. The head was already damaged. That is most likely the true reason why the hammer took the Freedom's head off.

[Gelmax]

When the Minerva's Tanhausser fired the resulting explosion was a big boom but not a nuclear explosion. Anti-matter and matter interactions don't result in a nuclear reaction that resemble the detenation of a Hydrogen Bomb. The Freedom's reactor is a powered by dueterium based fuels. A hydrogen bomb is fueled by dueterium heavy water as well. Hyper-dueterion is simply a more advanced form of fuel based on heavy water, but still hyper-dueterion is a re-enriched form of dueterium heavy water that can be used for fuels. Positron reaction are violent but do not react as a H-Bomb would. Watch Star Trek Generations. The destruction of the Enterprise-D is a more accurate visual of anti-matter/matter contact interactions.

Mushroom clouds are not unique to nuclear explosions - they are simply a property of big explosions at low altitudes. Additionally, the Enterprise-D's engineering section blew up in space, and explosions behave differently on Earth due to the presence of things like air and gravity - I'm sure you've realized that nuclear weapons don't create mushroom clouds in space either.

Additionally, as far as I know, there's never been a real-life antimatter explosion, and there probably isn't even enough antimatter currently stored on Earth to cause such an explosion, so there isn't any "accurate visual" of matter/antimatter reactions. I doubt current science has enough data to produce even a theoretical description of the appearance of such a reaction.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

oh yeah...

It would make sense for the PS armor in a damaged area to go weak or switch off.

[minovskycore_0180er]

When an H-bomb is detonated on terrain areas the resulting explosion has the characteristics of a mushroom cloud. However underwater or near water the resulting explosion would look like a thermo-nuke being detonated over water. Although the water itself is light it's still able to fuel a nuclear explosion. That why a H-Bomb detonation is so violent when done over or above water. All that hydrogen act's as massive fuel additives and it does that well. Overland the only form of water is vapor and that is easily snuffed.

But a head and neck joint of a MS. Our vertebrates turn left and right and bend up and down to move our heads. This servo-motivator would act as the first movement of moving our heads left and right. It would be located atop the MS and it's movements would be tied directly in the MS mainframe control. A second acutator atop the neck " servo " that would tilt the head and chin up or down. Now if you hit the head in the appropriate location the that servo will warp, buckle and even snap. I believe that it was the more easier for Clotho's Raider Mjoliner to knock of the head, because Shania's Forbidden had the opportunity to melt half of the Freedom's head with in plasma induction cannon. With that happening much of the Freedom's head had lost it structural integrity ( destruction of the heads structure frame, screws and bolt, bracings, compensators, ) and it was only a matter of pressure to complete the final blow.

[Sean_ODuibher]

A couple of things. First, a matter-antimatter explosion would be WAY bigger than a nuclear explosion. The energy per unit mass of antimatter is about 4 orders of magnitude bigger than what can be achieved in nuclear reactions, as while nuclear weapons can only release about 7 percent of the energy in the material, an antimatter reaction would release 100%. Basically, the biggest nuclear bomb ever detonated produced a blast of about 60 megatons and used hundreds of kilograms of fissionables. 1 kg of antimatter would result in about a 50 megaton explosion. So yeah...

The second part both deals with this and gets back to the topic at hand, sort of. Basically, its that nuclear reactors don't really go "nova." The only potential for an explosion is a "criticality accident" where fission goes unchecked in a bunch of fissile material. And a mere of loss of containment would not result in a huge explosion. And even if it did, the design and shape of a nuclear reactor is so radically different than that of a nuclear bomb that it wouldn't blow up in the traditional sense. Nuclear bombs are designed to rapidly increase the size of the chain reaction and build up pressure. Nuclear reactors are... not. In fact, they are designed to do precisely the opposite, ESPECIALLY in the case that there is an accident. So while physical damage to the reactor might damage the control rods/pebbles/whatever, that would result in a bunch of molten, radioactive metal and a lot of gamma rays, bad news, but not a huge explosion.

In fact, the huge explosions in general that happen after most mobile suits are hit in SEED are grossly inaccurate. The large explosions that we associate with modern armored warfare is the result of the rounds fired or secondary explosions of fuel or ammunition. But most of the MS weapons, even warship weapons, shown in the series are beam weapons or shells, and these appear to be relatively small, as cannon rounds go. Even if these were HE rounds, they wouldn't blow up an entire MS. I mean, MSs are big and heavy, 20 meters tall and like 80 tons. This is about equivalent in weight, though not at all in size, to an M1A1 Abrams MBT. And those things do not completely destruct when hit by a HEAT round. Plus, it doesn't really make sense to design a MS that would explode with the slightest hit. I mean, I suppose a glancing hit could blow up a MS that was packed with fuel and weapons, but they all seem to run on batteries/capacitors and either fire energy weapons or magazine based weapons... that would be stored OUTSIDE the MS.

So to answer the original question, in the case that the animators wanted a cool explosion, it wouldn't take much to crush the chest armor. However, if we look at this from a realistic standpoint, which is born out by the facts of MSs and MS warfare, it would be damned hard. I mean, just look at the cockpit. When the hatches come down, they seem to be nearly a foot thick each. That kind of bracing is not easy to break dead on. I have the feeling that even if an MS was in close proximity (read: not ground zero), it would be more likely to be picked up and flung away from the explosion than for its armor/structural integrity to fail. However, as has been mentioned before, if the integrity of the armor has already been compromised, it suddenly becomes a lot easier to break through armor. And its a lot easier to penetrate armor than to crush it. Just think about it like a piece of wood protecting Kira (not that it would matter, given his invincibility): it would be a lot easier to shoot a nail through it or cut it with a saw than it would be to use a hammer and beat the board until it gave in. So, that's it for me. Sorry about the long post. This is just a personal grievance of mine with the show.

PS: Has anyone else wondered why the smoke/ejecta is always pink in weapons/MS/warship explosions in SEED?

[Antares]

Going into SEED issues like explosions, animation errors/inconsistencies and the like is such a dead horse for me that I refuse to whip it anymore in this topic. I believe there is an earlier topic about physical weapons and PS somewhere to be necromanced for it as well.

But I can't resist the temptation to put forth a question of my own on the subject. I have two scenarios, and I wonder how PS (or even VPS) would handle them. First is a ramming charge (or bullrush) against a solid target. For example, what if the Impulse had grabbed the Freedom in the sky and managed to ram it against the ground at high speed? Would PS handle that crash (never mind that the pilot would be in a world of pain) and keep the hull of the Freedom intact, considering how bad that impact would rock the mobile suit internally?
And the second one is the same idea, but against a battleship, which would, in my estimate, by destroyed in the process. We could speculate that even if the mobile suit lives through the original impact, then what would the explosion of a battleship around it do? Surely there are limits to PS and their negation of physical damage there. I wonder if the case of the Impulse getting a bit charred by the explosion of the Freedom serve as a point of reference here.. Any thoughts?

[Gelmax]

Well, nuclear reactors have exploded when hit directly in several Gundam universes (including UC), so I didn't see any point in nitpicking that. Scientifically inaccurate by real-world laws, but everybody here already knows that much.

As for crushing the cockpit itself, that's difficult because it's easy to design one spot to be a lot more survivable than the area around it. For example, the area within a certain distance of the cockpit might be weaker than the cockpit itself or other parts of the mobile suit, which SOUNDS stupid at first, but that would allow a direct hit to break the area around the cockpit, while pushing the cockpit around rather than crushing it. For example, a chest impact is no sweat if the area behind the cockpit is weak and the cockpit isn't too strongly attached to anything else in the mobile suit - in that case, the impact could break the cockpit loose from the mobile suit's internal structure and push it backwards, crushing the weaker area behind the cockpit and shoving the cockpit into that area - while leaving the cockpit itself relatively intact.

[minovskycore_0180er]

Well antimatter and matter detonation was once explained to me by my high school chemistry teacher. If you had a solid peace of antimatter the size of office desk stapler and if that came in to contact with solid matter, the detonation would be so violent that 1/4 to 1/3 of the Earth would blown into orbit and Terra itself would have a solar orbit that's comparable to Mars. The Lonhengrin and Taunhausser probably use a matter mega-impulse energy stream that contains small traces of anti-electrons. If that blast was completely nothing more then a antimatter stream in plasmatic state equavilent the consequences for Earth's status would be catastrophic. And if my chem teacher was correct which I'm dead sure he wasn't joking when he that given look on his face, the Earth would under go complete anihillation.

[Wingnut]

Okay, back on the original topic now. A matter-antimatter explosion has nothing to do with PS armor.

I really don't want to hand out warnings over something this trivial.

[CHASER]

First is a ramming charge (or bullrush) against a solid target. For example, what if the Impulse had grabbed the Freedom in the sky and managed to ram it against the ground at high speed? Would PS handle that crash (never mind that the pilot would be in a world of pain) and keep the hull of the Freedom intact, considering how bad that impact would rock the mobile suit internally?

There was a show of Phase Shift Armour dealing with severe impact against larger targets. The Strike when fighting against GOOhNs in the ocean, I forget which episode, was repeatedly rammed by the other suits, along with the water pressure which was enough to crush a GOOhN when its shell was compromised. At the end of the episode the Strike stood on the deck of the Archangel and there was some very notable denting around its body, so a lot of force behind a hit can at least warp the armouring of the suit.

Of course, that was an older and battery-powered unit compared to the Freedom, whose reactor could by all means provide more power for the armour, assuming that has a bearing on its resilience. Also the Freedom did crash in Destiny when fighting against the Impulse, though in snow and pretty much ground its way down a hillside without any visible damage (well.. it lost a wing, but that was the reason it crashed in the first place).

And the second one is the same idea, but against a battleship, which would, in my estimate, by destroyed in the process. We could speculate that even if the mobile suit lives through the original impact, then what would the explosion of a battleship around it do? Surely there are limits to PS and their negation of physical damage there. I wonder if the case of the Impulse getting a bit charred by the explosion of the Freedom serve as a point of reference here.. Any thoughts?

I guess depending on what's inside that ship when it goes off would have some sway in the effects. A beam sabre uses plasma in it, which never seemed to have any problem against Phase Shift, so if there are materials in the ship that can be turned to superheated plasma when the ship explodes it could by all means tear the suit apart (things like weapons systems, power cores and engines probably). When the Freedom exploded it could have had the same effects on the air around it and burnt the Impulse. I personally didn't watch the aftermath of that little battle though...

[Kuruni]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Nero Blitz's spike design to damage PS?