Macross - size and proportion oddities

[Koshernova]

So, I'm about to wrap up Macross (incidentally, it's absolutely amazing), and some proportion/size oddities have been bugging me for a while. Specially since I took a look at the Macross Mecha Manual.

Basically it goes like this. Throughout the show, we see Valkyries go hand-to-hand with Zentradis. Most of the Zentradis are portrayed as being just as tall as Valkyries. Some, like Britai, are taller, but generally most Zentradi bar Britai and Exedol are roughly the same height. Here's where it gets odd.

Zentradis are portrayed as positively gigantic compared to humans. Generally speaking, when a Valkyrie is around it looks big against a human, of course. But the Zentradis tend to look much bigger.

Moreover, according to references, the Zentradi are on average 5 times the size of a human. This doesn't correspond to the animation at all. But it gets worse,

Take a look at this official scale chart (from Macross Perfect Memory), the one on the left in this page:

http://www.un-spacy-qmtdb.com/scalechar ... index.html

This chart is based on the heights of respective mecha, and it shows Quamzin as well as an average human being, for reference. The Zentradi's proportions are of course extrapolated from the size of their mecha, which have officially listed dimensions, allowing for the comparison with UN Spacy mecha. And here's where the biggest plothole comes:

The scene where Max dresses up his VF-1A as a Zentradi aboard Britai's ship. It is simply impossible! The only reasoning I can see for it is if the Zentradi that Max knocks out just happened to be bigger than average. But whenever we've seen a Valkyrie next to a Zentradi (and this is throughout the entire show, even near the end) they are roughly the same height. You never, ever, see a Valkyrie tower over a Zentradi (unless they are micloned of course).

Am I being too picky, or am I seeing things? I have to say, all things considered, this is the only major discrepancy I have seen in Macross (and considering the quality of the show, I am disinclined to be too bothered by it, but I'm still a nerd and like talking about these things ).

[MrMarch]

Glad you're enjoying Macross. It's awesome

There are some size discrepancies in the original SDF Macross television series. IMO, most were really unavoidable considering the beleaguered nature in which the show was produced and quite frankly, I'm amazed much of the series stayed relatively consistent. As for the occurrence in Episode 12, it is indeed an inconsistency unless Max just happened to encounter one of the larger Zentradi breeds. It's unlikely, so we'd have to call foul if we were being geeks. Which of course, we are

However, I don't think there's as many size inconsistencies as you suggest, particularly taking into account the scale of the mecha which remains quite uniform throughout the series

First off, the official sizes are correct and canon. The first time we see a Zentradi compared to a Valkyrie in Episode 2 (Hikaru in the VF-1D vs. the soldier in the blasted Battle Pod) it shows the correct scale of the Zentradi soldier dead on the ground at the foot of the VF-1D in GERWALK mode. The VF-1D and the Reguld Battle Pod are also shown to correct scale.

In Episode 7, Kamjin is shown in correct scale to his Glaug which in turn is shown in accurate scale to Hikaru's VF-1J when the two clash upon the deck of the SDF-1 Macross in Episode 8.

Further, Britai (and also Bodolzaa) is a larger than average Zentradi genetically designed to be bigger than the others. Also, in Episode 11, Britai is shown to be of equal height to the VF-1J Valkyrie in Battroid mode. Yet just after the battle scene, Britai recovers, stands up and two Zentradi soldiers appear on either side of him, each noticeably much shorter than Britai himself. Also in Episode 12, Hikaru, Misa, Max and Kakizaki are rescued in a Reguld Battle Pod, shown to correct scale when carried back to the Macross by three VF-1 Valkyries.

In Episode 30 a Zentradi soldier is shown almost to correct scale standing next to several VF-1 Valkyries in GERWALK mode as they are loading inside the landing bay of Britai's ship.

In Episode 32, Kamjin is shown in correct scale (surprisingly, see Anime Friend note below) to both the Destroid Monster MkII and his own Glaug (as is Laplamiz).

Episode 34 shows Hikaru battling Zentradi in a Destroid Spartan. The Spartan itself is smaller than a Valkyrie and the Zentradi are shown smaller than the Spartan, so scale is generally maintained here as well.

Also keep in mind the bumbling role that Anime Friend played in many of the episodes of the original Macross. The episodes that were animated by Anime Friend show a lot of problems and not just with scale. So take that into account (in particular, Episode 32 showing Valkyries fighting hand to hand with comparably sized Zentradi is one such Anime Friend blunder).

Lastly, take into account Macross Do You Remember Love?. The opening battle sequence in particular shows Max in his VF-1S Super Valkyrie dispatching a Reguld Battle Pod in close combat along with the pilot. The two mecha and the Zentradi were shown to perfect scale. There are also two instances of Roy's VF-1S compared to the Zentradi. When Roy is captured aboard the Light Transport Boat, two Zentradi soldiers are shown approaching his Battroid, obviously much shorter than the much larger Valkyrie. Also, Roy fights Kamjin later in the film. After Roy disables Kamjin's Nousjadeul-Ger Power Armor, Kamjin exits the mecha and runs over to fight Roy's VF-1S Super Valkyrie in hand-to-hand. The VF-1S is shown to perfect scale, significantly much larger and more massive than Kamjin himself.

[Koshernova]

Haha, you went into much more detail than I could ever hope possible!

Anyhow, I think the problem is that for the most part, on-foot Zentradi are shown next to Valkyries in action scenes. We rarely get to see them standing side-by-side, and when we do we get wonky scales (such as the Max blunder).

I suppose I have an unrelated Macross question, but I don't know if there's a point in creating a new thread (if a mod wants me to, I will). My question is this. The Bodolza fleet is called the "Main Fleet" throughout the series. Yet Gloval, probably informed by Exedol, explains near the end that the Zentradi and the Supervision Army are still "out there" fighting their war. There are two things that strike me:

1. The Supervision Army is still around. I was under the impression that the Zentradi had defeated or were about to defeat their ancient enemy. And yeah I know about the Protodeviln, though I still do not understand whether they are the same as the Supervision Army or not.

2. There are enough numbers of Zentradi out there for Exedol to be concerned about, and for Gloval to think they could re-eradicate Earth. Here the "main fleet" deal comes to play, I thought Bodolza's force was the main Zentradi force.

thoughts? Comments? By the way, I wrapped up Macross last night and now I need more. I've seen Macross Plus countless times, but I am wondering if I ought to risk Macross 7...

[OpMegs]

To my knowledge, the Supervision Army was primarily composed of Protoculture and Zentraedi forces drained of spirita and turned into mindless zombie forces by the Protodevlin. Even if the Protodevlin were themselves sealed, the SA would continue according to their orders without end, because they lacked the free will to do otherwise. Given the apocalyptic way the Protodevlin are described in Macross 7 by records of the Protoculture itself, one has to imagine that the forces seized by the Supervision Army were equal to, if not beyond, the Zentraedi in number. Thus necessitating such a massive military force that it could lose a fleet akin to Bodolza's and still remain only mildly inconvenienced.

As to the "Main Fleet", it may be that Bodolza's fleet was something of a "flagship" fleet. A flagship is not necessarily superior to any other ship of its class. Its only differentiation is that it contains the commander of the fleet. Thus, the Bodolza fleet is the "main fleet" in that it had Bodolza in it. What its size was compared to other Zentraedi fleets may have nothing to do with that title.

At least, that's my take on it.

[Koshernova]

I suppose for confirmation, I'll ask this: are we to understand then that Bodol Zer is the supreme leader of all Zentradi forces?

[Nagato21]

No it is specualated in some Macross tech books that there are other Bodolzer type in the galaxy, but since we seen only one throughout the entire franchise it is safe to assume most of them must have been wiped out or are still fighting the SA

[MrMarch]

Kosh
Hehehe, well I have to put my extensive knowledge of useless Macross trivia to work The second round of questions have mostly been answered, but I'll provide a few clarifications.

The Zentradi Bodol Main Fleet is not the supreme commanding fleet of the entire Zentradi Army. It is but one of a couple thousand such fleets. The term "Main Fleet" is used to help distinguish the larger Bodol Fleet from all the lesser fleets that comprise it. For example, later in the series Britai was given command of the Adoclass Fleet of some 1,200 warships. But that fleet is part of the 4,795,122 ships of the Bodol Main Fleet commander by Bodolzaa's Flagship (big blue thingy). Official literature states that there are 1,000 to 2,000 ships of the same class as Bodolzaa's Fulbtzs-Berrentzs Class Fleet Flagship commanding Zentradi fleets in the Milky Way Galaxy. So there are still potentially 9.6 billion zentradi warships in the galaxy.

The Supervision Army is never described in terms of numbers. However, given the near complete destruction of the Protoculture in their war against the Protodeviln some 500,000 years ago, we can safely assume the Supervision Army has at least a signifcant fraction of the forces of the Zentradi.

The Supervision Army is composed mostly of mind controlled Protoculture citizens and Zentradi. The Protodeviln are actually not that numerous themselves. They do directly possess the bodies of certain protoculture people and Zentradi (and later, humans), but most of the forces of the Protodeviln are controlled via mind altering technology.

To understand more clearly, the Supervision Army is an army of slaves. They did not exist until the Protoculture accidentally made contact with the Protodeviln, a race of energy beings from a sub-universe (where super dimension energy is found). In order for the Protodeviln to exist in our universe, they must absorb Spiritia, a life energy found in living beings like the protoculture people, zentradi and humans. So the Protodeviln possessed living creatures and enslaved others to fight for them in order to secure a steady supply of Spiritia to exist in our universe. Hence, the Supervision Army was created by the Protodeviln to enforce their will on the free Protoculture peoples and their Zentradi warriors.

Macross 7...oh my, where to begin? Honestly, see it for yourself. You don't have to watch the whole thing, but a few episodes is more than enough to form an opinion. I watched the first dozen episodes years ago and dropped it due to distaste. I picked it back up again this year to do research for the Macross Mecha Manual, but watching the rest of this show hasn't improved my opinion at all. ChrisG's thoughts on the series, as shown in his reviews, are pretty much dead on. It's cheesy and absurd, but mostly it's a damn repetitive series that just happens to have a good ending. Out of the 49 episodes of the show, you have 30 that are an utter waste of time, 10 average episodes that advance the story/characters somewhat and the last 9 episodes actually act like a real Macross show in spite of the sound force crap. I know this isn't a ringing endorsement, but you might get much more out of it if you just give it a try. Don't be afraid to at least try.

Well, I hope that helps.

[Koshernova]

Thanks MrMarch!

I feel like watching Macross 7 because, frankly, I finished the original series and am craving more. I've seen Macross Plus countless times, and wasn't too impressed with Macross Zero, so 7 is pretty much all I have left... until Macross Frontier that is.

[Chris]

Thanks MrMarch!

I feel like watching Macross 7 because, frankly, I finished the original series and am craving more. I've seen Macross Plus countless times, and wasn't too impressed with Macross Zero, so 7 is pretty much all I have left... until Macross Frontier that is.

It's worth watching at least once. Originally, I didn't like it very much seven years ago, but my opinion has changed a bit during my recent re-reviewing. If you're expecting anything like Macross or Macross Plus, look elsewhere, at least until about 36, or maybe earlier during the City 7 capture arc.

[OpMegs]

I'd definitely add on my opinion, such as it is, that Macross 7 is worth seeing at least once. A standout part of it is the end of the planet-bound arc(with Gigil's death), and the single episode before Operation: Stargazer begins. It's possibly one of the most poignant pre-military campaign scenes I've seen in several series.

[MrMarch]

Kosh
Well, if you're on an "Information High" (yeah I know it's lame, but it's a funny little Macross reference) why not watch more Macross? Macross 7 does include some interesting details that expand/refine the Macross universe. And lets not forget that while some of the mecha are quite lame, there are a few really cool Valkyries too.

Btw, I know you've said you've watched Macross Plus tons, but have you seen both versions of Macross Plus, OVA and Movie Edition? I strongly recommend watching the "other" version if you haven't already.

Chris
That's interesting. What would you give the series as a rating, now versus then?

OpMegs
Yeah, that episode was good. It was nice to see the series finally get some direction, legitimacy and pacing that really started with that episode.

[Nagato21]

Mr March is right the Macross Plus version and the OVA's may be similar but there is a lot difference in details.
One of my favorite episode is the end of the first episode when Isamu confront Guld about the crash. The music and the atmosphere inspired me and prompt me to continue watching ( I wasn't found of Macross Plus at first).
I have a question; How many Knightmare where stationed onboard Macross 7? B/c i only saw three or four of them.

[Chris]

Chris
That's interesting. What would you give the series as a rating, now versus then?

To quote the late, great author Robert Jordan, you'll have to RAFO (Read and Find Out). I've only re-reviewed up to episode 12 and haven't watched any further, so it will take quite a long time before I'm all the way through the series and onto stuff like Dynamite 7.

[MrMarch]

Nagato21
The official literature lists only three VF-17 Nightmares on board the Battle 7. However, we know from the series canon that there were more than three, since two VF-17s were destroyed but Diamond Force continues to operate at full strength despite the losses. We also know a third VF-17 belongs to Milia, customized in her token red colors.

Chris
Hate you!

[Nagato21]

THX for the info.
By the way any more info on the Destroids from Zero b/c they are really cool

Note in Macross 7 there seems to be no Destroids (I haven't finish watching it).
Does that means that they outlived there purpose?
Also in Macross Zero the UN Destroids that defended Maya island & the carrier Asuka where using wheels while the one in the classic tv had none of it. The Zero model like the Cheyenne seems to be more advance than a Tomahowk or Spartan in terms of friepower and mobility, where they just prototypes ?

[krullnar]

Well Zero is supposed to take place before the Macross Saga.

[MrMarch]

Nagato21
High resolution Macross Zero line art is REALLY hard to come by. A proper book of Macross Zero line art has not been released, likely due to the less than stellar sales of the series. The only line art of the Cheyenne Destroid from Macross Zero can be found in japanese hobby magazines, none of which I have. So sadly I can't make a proper profile of the Cheyenne for my website

Destroids have been all but abandoned by the 2030s. With the capture of the Factory Satellite and advances in OverTechnology, it became easy to build massive numbers of variable vehicles. These two factors also meant that variable vehicles ruled the modern battlefield and for any potential vehicle to compete required it too be variable. The non-variable destroids sadly became obsolete. Those destroids that did show up later in the Macross timeline were variable vehicles, like the VB-6 Konig Monster.

The capabilities of the Cheyenne Destroid from Macross Zero, much like those of the VF-0 and SV-51, are a necessary evil when making a modern prequel show to a 25 year old anime. Anachronistic design is simply an element you have to accept watching Macross Zero. Modern mecha fans demand modern looking mecha and modern animation. So even though Macross Zero is a prequel, look and performance of the mecha in Macross Zero appear more advanced than they did in the old SDFM series. What can I say.

Having said that, there are a few factors that may explain the capabilities and role of the Cheyenne Destroid so it's more in line with SDFM. Remember, the energy converting armor system of the Valkyries are based upon power generated by the engines. Both the VF-0 and SV-51 in Macross Zero are powered by conventional engines, not the far, FAR more powerful thermonuclear reaction engines found in the VF-1 and all later Valkyries. This means it's far easier to damage the VF-0 and SV-51 Valkyries because conventional engines only provide enough power to the ECA for tank-like armor protection. Thus, a much smaller, lighter and less heavily armed Destroid like the Cheyenne could be a very significant threat to the VF-0 and SV-51. But by the time SDFM came around, you7 had VF-1 Valkyries with reaction engines capable of putting out entire orders of magnitude more power fighting comparable Zentradi mecha with similar technology. The destroids of SDFM would have to be larger, heavier and carry far more powerful weaponry to compete.

Ta da!

[Aegis]

I feel like watching Macross 7 because, frankly, I finished the original series and am craving more. I've seen Macross Plus countless times, and wasn't too impressed with Macross Zero, so 7 is pretty much all I have left... until Macross Frontier that is.

Have you also watched Macross: Do You Remember Love? I'm assuming it was the TV series that you watched. As a retelling of the series in movie format of sorts, it is, in certain ways, better than the TV series (for instance, aside from the obvious improvement in animation, there is an even heavier divergence between the male and female Zentraedi (Meltrans and Zentrans respectively) in which both sides are practically at war against each other; considering the confusion when seeing men and women together, this division gives said confusion more meat to it than in the series; it's also nice to see Max and Milia's relationship not come together as quickly as implied in the series).

(I can't believe I'm about to suggest this...)

Have you considered watching Macross II: Lovers Again? I'm not exactly a big fan of the series, especially after watching the likes of DYRL, and especially when I follow that up with Macross Plus the Movie, but as a standalone series by itself, it's pretty much... Macross. I also do like the various mechas introduced, like the Macross cannons, the new valkyries, and the Gigamesh.

And I see the Macross Mecha Manual has yet to cover anything about Macross II. I may not be a fan of the series, but the mechs are a far sight better to look at than the flying Dolby Digital Surround Sound vfs of Macross 7. ;p

[VF5SS]

I'd argue that the Sv-51 and VF-0 looked like they performed better than the VF-1. Really, every Valkyrie action scene is breathtaking when being done by Ichiro Itano. And it's not like the VF-0 was doing anything on the level of the YF-19 from Macross Plus.

[MrMarch]

Aegis
Yes, DYRL is a must. SDFM, DYRL and M+ together are one of the best triple threats in mecha anime, period

I've no doubt some Macross II mecha will eventually make it to the M3 (particularly the Macross Cannon and the VF-2SS), but right now priorities are set firmly on Macross 7 and video game mecha. Don't really have anything against Macross II, aside from the fact I don't think much of it. But compared to Macross 7's horrible concept and awful execution, it's hard to complain too loudly about the mediocre Macross II. In any event, I am just one guy doing all this, so poor Macross II has to wait for any appearance on the M3.

In spite of the tragic sound force crap, I generally think more highly of the mecha in Macross 7 than Macross II; I appreciate the base designs. Ignoring the terrible sound force customs, the VF-11, VF-17 and VF-19 (as well as the VF-22) are all top notch mechanical designs. I know a lot of Macross fans, even those that dislike MII, seem to think highly of the VF-2SS. I do not. The VF-2SS Battroid mode is a reasonably interesting refinement of the VF-1 Battroid, but the VF-2SS Fighter/GERWALK modes are just awful; the mechanical designers placed too much emphasis on faux-futuristic styling, abandoning all practical aerodynamic elements found in the Kawamori Valkyries. They just piled on more baroque motifs and silly massive cannons as large as the craft itself. The Mardook designs are all very forgettable IMO, with the possible exception of the mothership. Overall, the mechanical design is nothing anyone would miss, IMO.

AC
It's subjective of course, but I was just speaking in general terms. Most fans watching modern animation techniques seem to perceive action and motion as much more intense than that seen in older anime shows.