Weapons ahead of their time

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

First things first...this IS NOT meant to be a versus thread at all, so try not to turn it into one =)

Anyway...

We all know about the various points in (mostly UC) history where there have been many Mobile Weapons (MS or MA) that are (very) advanced for their creation period (or just in general) and considered ahead of their time. What I was wondering...how would some of those weapons have performed in those later times where it would've been more feasible or at least when there are other MS/MA made.

For example, the AMA-X2/AMX-002 Neue Ziel was definitely ahead of its time compared to all other Mobile Armors designed during the One Year War (losing out only to the MAN-05 Gromlin most likely) and even 4 years later, in 0083, it still proved to be a decimating foe for the Federation, lasting several hours before it ended up destroyed and even outdoing the modern-designed Dendrobium. How would the Neue Ziel design have performed during the later years of the Universal Century...The Gryps War, Neo Zeon Wars, or even (if one is so bold) as far as Gundam F91 and beyond.

From what I've read up, only a few Mobile Armor would ever match up and/or surpass the Neue Ziel; the MAN-05 Gromlin (not made), the MAN-05-2 Gromlin II (not made), the NZ-444 Beta Azieru (not made), the XMA-01 Rafflesia (with the Bugs + Neo-psycommu system), and the XMA-02 Ebirhu Doga (with the Bugs).

Later-day Mobile Suits should be able to at least stand up to it a lot better than 0079-0083 anyway...beam shields, much higher performance, and such.

Feel free to talk about other advanced new MS/MA as well.

[Recon 5]

In theory, any bit- using mobile suit/mobile armor (especially the insane Greymalk or the Alpha Azieru) should be able to outdo the Neue Ziel, mainly because Gato wasn't a Newtype. The Nu Gundam is another moot point- it could probably just box up the Neue Ziel with its funnel field and leave Gato to rot or something in there.

One thing: I suggest posting 'no versus please' reminders every few posts or so otherwise this thread will become a 'Neue Ziel VERSUS everthing' and a mod will lock it before you can rectify the issue. In fact, I think the first mod who reads this thread WILL lock it because ALL other performance comparison threads before this degenerated into versus threads (which are, by definition, performance comparison threads).

[ShadowCell]

Actually, after reading this thread, I decided not to outright lock it because it hadn't yet broken any rules.

So if you want this thread to go anywhere, uh, don't let it break any rules.

Carry on.

[Wingnut]

The greatest thing I think the NZ had going for it was the full coverage I-field, followed by the large weapons arsenal. Really anything that is maneuverable enough to dodge the beam assault and either evade or shoot down missiles, and packs weaponry that can get past an I-Field should be able to defeat the NZ.

[Mr. Jinkens]

aye, though i believe that seeing as how the dendrobium had the i-field in 0083 that the federation would have made smaller more compact versions (havn't seen past 0083 yet so dont spoil it ) which would more or less negate 3/4 of the NZ's armament, if i remember right, it had 2 beam weapons in its hands, and like 4 on each shoulder, that made up the bulk of weaponry on it iirc. so its not so much that it wouldn't perform perfectly like it did in 0083, but it would just be out done by its own technology in the future. or new technology such as the psycho frame ( hw ever you spell it)

[Zangetsu]

aye, though i believe that seeing as how the dendrobium had the i-field in 0083 that the federation would have made smaller more compact versions (havn't seen past 0083 yet so dont spoil it ) which would more or less negate 3/4 of the NZ's armament, if i remember right, it had 2 beam weapons in its hands, and like 4 on each shoulder, that made up the bulk of weaponry on it iirc. so its not so much that it wouldn't perform perfectly like it did in 0083, but it would just be out done by its own technology in the future. or new technology such as the psycho frame ( hw ever you spell it)

It has about 15 Mega Partical Cannons alone, a mega cannon, missiles, and six mega beam sabers.

[Wingnut]

It has about 15 Mega Partical Cannons alone, a mega cannon, missiles, and six mega beam sabers.

That may sound good on paper, but given what we saw in the show, Gato could only use at best half of that at any given time. 4 of those beam saber/beam guns were mounted on those hidden hands and another 2 on the main claw arms, making them rather limited in their use. At most 5 MPC beams headed at you at once and Gato also never fired the missiles at the same time as beams either. Like I said before, a manuverable enough unit can easily dodge that stuff. Power doesn't matter if you don't get hit.

[Mr. Jinkens]

oh, i only counted 1 in each claw and what seemed like a few on each shoulder, im gonna hvae to go back and rewatch the stuff now, but the fact still remains, that if the ifield was exploited and made more compact, NZ's main armament, how ever many beam weapons it had, would have been basically a moot point.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Just a reminder that you don't just have to talk about the Neue Ziel, but you can also talk about other advanced Mobile Weapons as well (if there's enough info...can't really say much about the Gromlin or Gromlin II since they were never made and such). =)

[Kavik Ryx]

In a sense, the Nue Ziel was mass produced as the Doven Wolf, which featured the same all range capability as the said armor. The Ziel itself, let's be realistic here, would be god damn expensive. The technology at the time could be mass produced at nothing more advanced than a GM. That one armor probably also used experimental, or ideal parts that would have not been worked on enough to function beyond that one prototype. Heck, we only saw it fight in one battle, and was eventually destroyed by the Federation Forces.

[Newtype87]

Well, I never watched Wing, but the Tallgeese was so advanced at the time of its construction that twenty years after it was built it was able to fight toe-to-toe with the newest in Mobile Weapon technology. Of course, this all depends on the skill of the pilot, and the relative lack of advancement in MS technology that occured up until the Gundam's made the scene, but the fact that it was still effective is remarkable. That would be like the RX-78-2 being pulled out of retirement after about fifteen years and still being able to hold its own (though most likely not win) against the likes of the Jagd Doga and Sazabi.

Okay, maybe it's not such a hot example, but it works. And frankly, given the shear variety of power present in the machine, the Nu Gundam could also be considered slightly ahead of its time. Though it could simply be that Anaheim decided to push the envelope a little further for Amuro's new machine.

[krullnar]

Couldn't the same be said about Wing Zero which power was so great when it was designed, it's power scared its creator so badly that they never actually made it till much later.

[Ascension]

In addition, the Wing Zero was both the very first Gundam to be designed in the AC universe and arguably the most advanced. It was built more recently, but it was designed first. To continue with your RX-78 vs. Sazabi analogy, that'd be like finally building the Perfect Zeong in 0093 and finding out that it was able to pwn space colonies.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[krullnar]

Seriously though isn't it also the first suit ever designed in the AC universe.

[Ascension]

Actually, yeah, I think you're right.

So it'd be more like building the MS-01 in 0093 and finding out that it could pwn space colonies...

[Wingnut]

In a sense, the Nue Ziel was mass produced as the Doven Wolf,

What? There was only one Neue Ziel period. There were many Doven Wolves.

Well, I never watched Wing, but the Tallgeese was so advanced at the time of its construction that twenty years after it was built it was able to fight toe-to-toe with the newest in Mobile Weapon technology. Of course, this all depends on the skill of the pilot, and the relative lack of advancement in MS technology that occured up until the Gundam's made the scene, but the fact that it was still effective is remarkable. That would be like the RX-78-2 being pulled out of retirement after about fifteen years and still being able to hold its own (though most likely not win) against the likes of the Jagd Doga and Sazabi.

Okay, maybe it's not such a hot example, but it works.

Not really. The only area where the Tallgeese was really overpowered was in the engine. It was too fast and wild for a pilot to control in battle. Everything else about it was no better than any other mobile suit (save for a Gundam of course) that was built.
The OP example of the Neue Ziel was something that was overpowered compared to other machines of its day in many ways, not just speed.

Couldn't the same be said about Wing Zero which power was so great when it was designed, it's power scared its creator so badly that they never actually made it till much later.

Again, no, but for a different reason.
The only thing that stopped the 5 scientists from building the thing was the ZERO system. Granted Wing Zero was somewhat more powerful than the other Gundams, but not by much. The TBR also has a lot to do with the "power" of the unit as well, and anyone can strap a huge beam cannon that can kill a colony to a mobile suit and not have it be considered overpowered. (See the Vayate for example.)
Without the ZERO system, the Wing Zero is really nothing more than a Wing Gundam Mk. II of sorts.

[auriga]

I'm wondering why no one has brought up the Zero GR/The R/Ze Aru/whatever from CDA...

Totally unrelated, though: I'd say that's also a good example of a Mobile Armor (correction... Mobile Fortress) performing insanely in the hands of a very adept pilot... One that doesn't want to get hit (even with an I-Field), at that.

[Ascension]

In a sense, the Nue Ziel was mass produced as the Doven Wolf,

What? There was only one Neue Ziel period. There were many Doven Wolves.

That's what he means. The Doven Wolf, mounting a quasi-psycommu system and a pretty good loadout of weaponry, is built around the same design concept as the Neue Ziel, but by that time they were able to afford to mass produce it and miniaturize it (though of course the Wolf didn't have the I-fields). In that way, the Neue Ziel was (spiritually) mass-produced as the Doven Wolf.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

In a sense, the Nue Ziel was mass produced as the Doven Wolf,

What? There was only one Neue Ziel period. There were many Doven Wolves.

That's what he means. The Doven Wolf, mounting a quasi-psycommu system and a pretty good loadout of weaponry, is built around the same design concept as the Neue Ziel, but by that time they were able to afford to mass produce it and miniaturize it (though of course the Wolf didn't have the I-fields). In that way, the Neue Ziel was (spiritually) mass-produced as the Doven Wolf.

Technically, it's more of an actual mass production Psyco Gundam Mark II (excluding the "official" MRX-011 one), but the quasi-psycommu system itself, I believe, could be branched all the way back to the "half control" system of the Neue Ziel, so it could be a conglomorate of both weapons.

[Kuruni]

Turn A and Turn X.

Built milleniums ago, yet more advance than anything, include those from other title .