How could Zeon be this stupid?

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ORegan
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How could Zeon be this stupid?

Not to bash Zeon, as I love the bunch of space Nazi's for making killer cyclops robots of death, but I'd really like to know how this is possible.

Look at the historical notes of the dragonfly found here http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/dragonfly.htm

Now I'm going to quote the problem:
It is also interesting to note that apparently the Principality of Zeon lacked the technical means and knowledge to produce a propeller-driven aircraft such as the Dragonfly.
Are they kidding me? Zeon can make MS that can survive the pressures of deep sea diving, and make weapons that can be used by peoples brains....but they can't make things with propellers? They couldn't just take a spitfire or mustang and use that for inspiration?

So my questions is did Zeon actually have failed attempts to make a propeller plane or did they just no care enough to even try?
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wing zero alpha
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That's always been a laughable thing for me too, because Zeon seemed to have more working knowledge of Earth's oceans than the Federation, yet they had little to no knowledge on Earth's atmosphere. This is shown when Ranba Ral's men were getting spooked at a lightning storm, thinking it was some new Federation superweapon in the works.

But on propeller driven technology, I always figured it was more an overlooked piece of technology rather than something the Zeeks failed to comprehend. But if they really did fail to understand and utilize it, I'm not surprised; they've done dumber things before.
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It's not too surprising that older technologies are forgotten in favor of newer ones. Zeon engineers were probably more accustomed to spaced based technology using jets or rockets, so designing a propeller driven plane never crossed their minds.
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Melchior
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wing zero alpha wrote:That's always been a laughable thing for me too, because Zeon seemed to have more working knowledge of Earth's oceans than the Federation,
But that''s probably because most of Zeon's navy is made up of Earthnoid turncoats.
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wing zero alpha
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Melchior wrote:But that''s probably because most of Zeon's navy is made up of Earthnoid turncoats.
But they don't have any turncoats in their air force?
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Mwulf
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wing zero alpha wrote:This is shown when Ranba Ral's men were getting spooked at a lightning storm, thinking it was some new Federation superweapon in the works.
May have been absurd in MSG, but the same thing was Awesome in Turn A. :P

But yeah, the propeller stuff is really odd. Then again, Zeon was really really good at combining genius with mind-numbing stupidity.
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wing zero alpha
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Mwulf wrote:May have been absurd in MSG, but the same thing was Awesome in Turn A. :P
Except up until their invasion none of the Moonrace's population had set foot on the Earth for thousands of years. As well, they weren't making highly advanced technology based on Earth's conditions (in fact, they really didn't make any of their own technology at all).

The Zeon on the other hand were supposed to be so understanding that they made more advanced planet-side weapons than the Federation, including the Gau supercarrier. You'd think they'd know more about atmospheric disturbances and the like, but then those were dumb grunts under Ral's command anyway, so who knows.
Last edited by wing zero alpha on Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Which is precisely why the scene was awesome in the context of Turn A and absurd in MSG. :?
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wing zero alpha wrote:
Melchior wrote:But that''s probably because most of Zeon's navy is made up of Earthnoid turncoats.
But they don't have any turncoats in their air force?
There's a few problems with that question:

1.) Are there any propeller driven Federation planes other than the dragonfly? It doesn't even seem to be a common technology within the Federation, probably because jets largely obsolete propellers.

2.) Even Zeon were to get a turncoat who piloted a dragonfly, there's no guarantee that they would know the physics behind it. Even if they had a complete dragonfly, they'd have to reverse engineer it to figure out how it works. And this probably wasn't exactly a top priority, so Zeon would be limited to its captured Dragonflies in any case. And how useful is a captured Dragonfly?

I don't see this as an issue at all. Technology isn't just some spectrum, with mastery of higher technologies implying mastery of lower technologies. I don't need to have any skill with an abacus or a slide ruler, for instance, to use or build a computer, even though those are even in the same area of technology. And why would I use those things if I always have access to a calculator? Zeon is in the same situation, what benefit is there for them in a colony to make a propeller craft, especially since "flying" in a colony is more or less a matter of getting off of the ground and then avoiding the walls.

I suppose you could argue that if you can make a plane at all (which Zeon can) you can make a propeller plane, but I don't see that as true. You'll probably understand the principle, but making one that handles well is another matter entirely that requires experience with that sort of technology.
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wing zero alpha
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Saikuba wrote:1.) Are there any propeller driven Federation planes other than the dragonfly? It doesn't even seem to be a common technology within the Federation, probably because jets largely obsolete propellers.
Nothing on screen but I don't think the technology is completely abandoned, especially in a Minovsky-dominant setting. Even in Z Gundam there are examples of propeller driven aircraft flying around, namely Beltochika's Beechcraft plane, and I think the plane Amuro used to fly from the Cheyenne Base to his little mansion-turned-dungeon. And really, it doesn't have to be common technology to be producable; as long as there's a working understanding of it, it can be made no matter how much past its time it is.
2.) Even Zeon were to get a turncoat who piloted a dragonfly, there's no guarantee that they would know the physics behind it. Even if they had a complete dragonfly, they'd have to reverse engineer it to figure out how it works. And this probably wasn't exactly a top priority, so Zeon would be limited to its captured Dragonflies in any case. And how useful is a captured Dragonfly?
Are you kidding? The Zeon, who know physics like the Japanese know electronics and the Jewish know business and economics, would have to completely reverse engineer a working propeller driven aircraft just to know how the physics work? That'd be like engineers at the Ford motor company being completely baffled by the concept of a "horse-drawn carriage".
I don't see this as an issue at all. Technology isn't just some spectrum, with mastery of higher technologies implying mastery of lower technologies. I don't need to have any skill with an abacus or a slide ruler, for instance, to use or build a computer, even though those are even in the same area of technology. And why would I use those things if I always have access to a calculator?


By that logic then you better not lose that calculator, otherwise you're going to be in a very tight spot. Basic technology and knowledge may not be important at the time, but make no mistake, if and when something happens you're going to want to know how to use a ruler or abacus to get through your problem, which is exactly how the Dragonfly came to be. The Federation needed an efficient short-range aircraft that could fly through minovsky dense environments to relay messages and subsequently people from one area to another, and so they turned to the basics in order to get one.
Zeon is in the same situation, what benefit is there for them in a colony to make a propeller craft, especially since "flying" in a colony is more or less a matter of getting off of the ground and then avoiding the walls.
Necessity is one thing, but that article makes it seem like the Zeeks are too "primitive" (note the irony) to understand that technology, as well as seemingly lacking in having the tools and parts to produce a working model. Are you telling me that the same people that invented and patented the mobile suit and Minovsky reactor can't build a basic piston engine?
I suppose you could argue that if you can make a plane at all (which Zeon can) you can make a propeller plane, but I don't see that as true. You'll probably understand the principle, but making one that handles well is another matter entirely that requires experience with that sort of technology.
Again, there's a clear difference between not needing to build it and not being able to build it. The Zeeks have made far more advanced pieces of technology in their time in the sun AND they have perhaps the best understanding of physics that humans can possess; that said, not only should they be able to make a propeller aircraft, but they should be able to make one that would literally fly circles around the Dragonfly.

EDIT: I noticed looking over the Fat Uncle pictures that its wings have rotors on them for VTOL capability, so it looks like that the Zeeks know how propeller physics work after all.
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Re: How could Zeon be this stupid?

ORegan wrote:Now I'm going to quote the problem:
It is also interesting to note that apparently the Principality of Zeon lacked the technical means and knowledge to produce a propeller-driven aircraft such as the Dragonfly.
One solution to this problem is that the claim may not actually be true. Even the MAHQ profile states this as guess ("apparently"), and I don't recall seeing anything along these lines in the Japanese sources. So perhaps we should just disregard it. :-)

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Re: How could Zeon be this stupid?

toysdream wrote:One solution to this problem is that the claim may not actually be true. Even the MAHQ profile states this as guess ("apparently"), and I don't recall seeing anything along these lines in the Japanese sources. So perhaps we should just disregard it. :-)

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Considering that the guy who wrote those MSG vehicle profiles told me (after the fact) that he wanted to re-write most of them, I'd tend to agree.
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ORegan
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wing zero alpha wrote:
EDIT: I noticed looking over the Fat Uncle pictures that its wings have rotors on them for VTOL capability, so it looks like that the Zeeks know how propeller physics work after all.
well, at least they can make helicopters and made a VTOL aircraft
Chris wrote:
toysdream wrote:One solution to this problem is that the claim may not actually be true. Even the MAHQ profile states this as guess ("apparently"), and I don't recall seeing anything along these lines in the Japanese sources. So perhaps we should just disregard it. :-)

-- Mark
Considering that the guy who wrote those MSG vehicle profiles told me (after the fact) that he wanted to re-write most of them, I'd tend to agree.
So should we regard the Zeon's lack of propellers as them just not giving a crap about an outdated technology instead of having no idea how to make a giant fan that can make a plane fly?
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ORegan wrote:So should we regard the Zeon's lack of propellers as them just not giving a crap about an outdated technology instead of having no idea how to make a giant fan that can make a plane fly?

I'd say it's probably the former reason, as they seemed to have some idea how to make a 'giant fan' (As you hinted at before).
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Ya know contrary to popular belief, the "giant fan" really only serves one purpose; to keep the pilot cool. If it stops working, you can really see the pilot sweat. Sorry, bad aviator joke.

I personally think the blurb at the end of the profile is a load of crap. As has been stated before, the MAHQ profiles are not the definitive bible on all things mecha. Its close, its good, but not perfect.
Honestly a whirly-gig is alot more complicated to produce than a darn prop-job. *cough* not to mention 65 ton bipedal warmachines...

As someone was saying earlier that you don't nessisarily need the previous technology to make newer stuff, but honestly I may not know how to use an abacus, but i know how to make one. We're not talking about a sliderule here, we're talking about one of the (still) most efficient forms of flight.

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As stated before, I think they just "forgot" how to engineer such things, kinda like how how we almost never use vacuum tubes with the advent of transistors and microprocessors in the 1960s and 70s. It was just so obsolete that they never knew how to fine tune and perfect such an atiquated design.

Furthermore, this could have been a piston-engined aircraft. Fast forwad to Zeta Gundam, Emma and Kamille were talking about her run-in with Amuro on Earth. She mentioned his "antique gasoline powered car." Also, in most UC series, we notice that personal transports (in the colonies anayways) look like little yellow-orange electric buggies, which would make sense since combustible fuel emissions would really pose a problem in a closed-colony environment. My hypothesis is that the understanding of piston engines has faded away in the remote colonies (in this case Side 3). At the same time, in 08th Team the Federation has Jeeps, but for all we know Zeon wheeled vehicles could be electric, diesel, or turbine powered.
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To continue Zeonfromhell's line of thinking, why would Zeon actually need this technology? There isn't much call for aircraft inside a colony, and militarily the technology has been obsolete since the 1950's. They don't have the technolgy beacuse they have no need for it.
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ORegan
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well we more or less wrapped up the topic, but Zeon really would have no need for the giant fan planes. I was just asking due to the dragon fly's profile. But we have all learned that Zeon DOES have the technology, but they think it's a retarded idea when they have jets
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these are the same folks who thought fans would make great hoverbikes to throw sticky bombs from :lol:
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razgriz wrote:these are the same folks who thought fans would make great hoverbikes to throw sticky bombs from :lol:
Hey now, in all fairness that would have worked if they didn't just sit there. All they had to do is rig the bombs wiht remote detonators and then just pull the trigger once they got far enough away. Maybe it wouldn't have destroyed the Gundam, but at least Amuro's corpse would have to have been recoverd with a sponge.
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